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On October 11 2012 23:33 wonnaplay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 08:32 RaiZ wrote:2 pages and only 1 post worth reading. Everything is just bullshit or false answers that has NOTHING to do with the OP. I'm really getting tired of this shit... Basically listen to him : + Show Spoiler +On October 11 2012 00:40 wonnaplay wrote:
As that Day9 guy explains in his video, about the 'Golden bone' is absolutely necessary for a stable hand.
This is what I tell users which experience RSI at my work aswell and have been doing this for the past 10 years.
You should only use that little bone while moving your mouse.
Furthermore, your hand position compared to the keyboard should be so that you don't get complaints on your wrist. It differs per person, but try and change the height and placement of your keyboard while gaming. Your wrist should lean on the desk aswell for more endurance (just like with the mouse).
Chair/Desk height will also be a factor in this scenario, so test the differences in height with your desk chair (assuming your desk chair is adjustable).
For an overall good experience you will need to test your own style, for what feels good for you.
I.E. some users like to have their keyboard almost vertical, and some users need it to be mainly horizontal.
Try some of this stuff and see with which setting your hand doesn't hurt.
The reason that pro-gamers can play all day is because their hands are on the desk as if it is natural for them.
I've been playing RTS on a decent level for years (Red alert 2, CnC3, now Sc2) and I work all day with a computer, so for me it is really important I don't have wrist and/or hand problems after a while of gaming. At work and at home my setup is practically the same, it also differs alot from my colleagues, but it works for me.
Find out which 'setup' works for you and get used to it. After this you can try and spam APM without getting wrist/hand problems after 1 or 2 games. You shouldn't force yourself with difficulties on your hands, because that may result in getting RSI, which is a gamer's worst nightmare. I do believe though that you need your arm positioning horizontally. I don't believe having it vertically is good because of the blood circulation (the most important thing if you don't want to get hurt). So yeah you need a chair where you can lie down your elbows. I've been playing a lot of games in BW and i've never been hurt (read 12 years).  Very true, I kind of phrased that wrongly. Getting the keyboard vertical can't be good for your hand. What I should've said is changing the keyboard in a 'x' degrees. With 'almost vertically' I bassicly ment rotating the keyboard almost 180 degrees. For an example; whenever I play I change my keyboard for about 20 degrees so that my whole arm can relax on the desktop while having my fingers on the appropriate keys, without having my hand in an ackward position Glad atleast someone saw my post, was wondering if everyone just spammed nonsense or was actually trying to be productive
Oh yeah didn't interpret like it, 180 degree ? You mean 90 degree ? lol ^^
I do that too kind of, before I used the thumb for the left ctrl and got used to it for a long time, but then I used my pinky finger and rotating the keyboard to 5-10 degree helped to the transition. Haven't changed since then.
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I had a piano teacher that said when ever his hands got achy he would get a bowl of ice water and soak his hands in it for as long as he could. Then he'd rinse them under hot water until he couldn't stand the heat anymore, and then repeat 2-3 times. When ever my hands started to hurt from playing the piano or playing video games, I would do this and it always helped.
Also always remember to do some sort of warm up before you start spamming apm in a ladder game. Try to do some hand stretches also. When you do hand stretches though, remember not to put too much unnecessary strain or force on your fingers. Like some people will pop/crack every joint in their and which to me seems like something does more harm than good.
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On October 12 2012 09:25 Liszt wrote:
I had a piano teacher that said when ever his hands got achy he would get a bowl of ice water and soak his hands in it for as long as he could. Then he'd rinse them under hot water until he couldn't stand the heat anymore, and then repeat 2-3 times. When ever my hands started to hurt from playing the piano or playing video games, I would do this and it always helped.
Also always remember to do some sort of warm up before you start spamming apm in a ladder game. Try to do some hand stretches also. When you do hand stretches though, remember not to put too much unnecessary strain or force on your fingers. Like some people will pop/crack every joint in their and which to me seems like something does more harm than good.
ok from a sports perspective i use my hands a lot.. and during the winter months of training... we were told to never go straight from ice cold to hot.. it actually damages your nerves really badly... the helping your feeling is the numbness from the cold. and nerves not feeling anything.. unless your going from ice cold and moving up to hot water thats different.. but from straight ice to boiling hot... not good at all..
but with the op. its called "conditioning" like anything - example u wanna do a 15km run... well your not going to fully be able to run it in the first day at a great speed but after a while doing that speed your body adjusts to it and you get better ad better and better... im sure the pros didn't start out at 200 apm in the first ever match...
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As someone who is only a spectator to SC2, the only thing I can sort of relate to with regards to this topic would be playing Beatmania IIDX. As dead as the game is (at least for me since CS versions are no longer and I don't live in Japan), I still keep trying to play at least a few times a week just to keep my skill up and to keep my wrist "stamina" up. But what I can relate though is that the more I played and the more I got better, the more that certain actions that used to stress my wrists no longer cause the same strain. Mind you this was a process that took some years; it was nowhere near instant. I can only imagine something similar occurs with a good amount of SC2 pros.
And if it did ever get fairly bad, I used to also do something similar to what was described in the piano teacher scenario, just minus the cold water.
And now I got the bug to play some more IIDX, thanks for reminding me 
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In my Opinion it comes down to two things :
1. Position of wrist and hands
Set up your keyboard position so that you do not have to bent your wrist to reach the keyboard. Bending your wrist make your muscle and nerves there more vulnerable to injury, especially from pro-long usage. Simply put, keep your forearm, wrist and your hand a straight line.
2. Force applied to your fingers
To have high APM, we do not need to press the keyboard HARD. Instead, we should aim for hitting another key as fast as possible.In other words, try to hit the keys as soft as possible so you need less muscle contraction to perform the same actions. It is true that muscles take time to grow, so do not force yourself to be as fast as Vibe right away, give time to your body to adjust to your gaming style.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you are feeling hurt, reduce your practice hours!! If doing sth hurt you, and you simply keep on forcing yourself to do more of it, you can easily get yourself into permanent damage. Failing SC2 is bad, but failing SC2 with a damaged wrist/hand is even worse. If your body cannot change that quickly to afford your training session, give it time. If it hurts too much, find a doctor before it is too late. It is such a tragedy for someone to be so passionate that he drives himself into injuries without consciously knowing that.
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I agree with everyone that said you should try to do things in a minimal way with everyhing else relaxed. You shoul also watch out so your joints mostly are in a normal possision. Not bended In any direction. If you still feel hurt you should stop playing or play a lesser amount and with regular breaks since else you will prossibly get permanent damage. I have played the violin sincei was 4 and some people i grew up with have hurt themself in this way after some years of full time studying music. I got the imression that this kind of injuries comes after some years and feel afraid that soon the time is up for some progamers that began playing a lot 3 years ago.
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Maybe you're using too much force to press the keys..
Relax ur fingers a bit, keep it warm..
And use mechanical keyboard. They help A LOT! U only need to press halfway for the keys to register, that is 50% less energy for ur fingers.
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I believe that hand speed comes from your brain's ability to utilize your fingers, and not from the muscles in your hands. Many people may think that hand speed can be gained by working out the finger muscles, but i dont think this is true. Fast hands are not a result of large sweeping motions, but very subtle and soft motions which can only be done when your brain has developed a good understanding of how to utilize every muscle in your fingers.
Edit: this old thread explains hand speed very well i think http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232725
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And i think mods should warn or bann anyone saying to ignore the pain in one way or an other. Giving wrong advice in this subject is 1000 times worse then giving wrong advice in strategy forum.
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I dont think spamming is necessary. As you said your self "your hands hurt" so not spamming would be the obvious thing to do.
I personally don't spam. I still average about 120 apm at end game, early game i will average 50 - 60 without spam. I don't benefit from spamming at all. When i need my max apm, ill have my max apm with spam or without spam. Also i continue to get faster without spam.
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Stop playing immediately. Consult with your doctor before playing again.
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The type of mouse and the angle your keyboard is at has great influence for the rsi like problems. It varies per person since not everyone has the same hand shapes or structure.
you should also review how you are sitting and whether your keyboard/mouse is at a comfortable height. You should use a very good mouse pad and make sure the cord isn't rubbing against any rough surfaces as the extra friction just adds extra strain.
The technique that you use to hit the keys and click also has a huge effect, but these habits might be difficult to change. Try to use less force as previous posters have stated, make sure how you clicking and hitting the keys aren't at any weird angles or puts strain on your hand.
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+ Show Spoiler + APM DOES NOT make you a good player. I shit you not. One of the reasons why higher level players have higher APM is because there is a lot of stuff that you need to do while macroing that lower tier players don't actually see. Have a better understanding of the game, then go on to use the minimal amount of key presses you actually NEED, not want. Same thing with micro, spam clicking A+left mouse button doesn't make your army kill faster in all cases. You should focus on re positioning your army with your APM and use spellcasters to their highest potential, not mindlessly spam away.
Aside from that which you do not want to hear,
1. Stretches. So important to your fingers, they help a lot to reduce the strain in your fingers.
2. Grab a wrist brace or two, and the ones that you wear at night. They put your wrist in the optimal resting position so your wrists can heal up from your spamming.
3. Keep playing the game. You'll get used to it. No pain, no gain.
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On October 11 2012 00:12 illidan333 wrote:
After some games with intense spamming my hand hurt.
You could be suffering from an RSI; Repetitive Strain Injury. Basically when you do a certian action over and over for a while it damages your hands.
If this pain persists for over 3 weeks I would recommend to consult a doctor.
Otherwise just slow it down a little. Aim for around 120 ish, thats not crazy fast or 'nooby' slow (yah apm=/= skill, I know).
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On October 11 2012 00:23 illidan333 wrote:
VIBE has 500-600 and most of his game goes into the lategame? If it's true, how can he play more than one game per day ?! :D
Because when he actually has to do something, his APM drops to 60.
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I have like 200 ish apm too
you could try to play osu to break your hand more! :D
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Aside from that, what all the others correctly (and sometimes incorrectly) wrote, I have still a small hint for you.
I know that from playing piano. When I learn a new song, my back and hands convulse without me noticing it. After maybe 1 hour of practice I lean back as I take a small break. Then I notice how everything hurts (mostly back and wrist) so I just stop for now. (I don't play on a serious level, so I can afford to stop whenever I want  )
Once I'm getting used to play that song, the moves get more fluid, the mind is more relaxed as well. Then I can start to increase the speed (if necessary) without even worrying about that pain anymore.
In short: Unknown moves = convulse body; known moves = relaxed body
And just because I think its uber important:
Stop playing immediately. Consult with your doctor before playing again.
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EPT
