Hi, I'm a very slow player and I really try to improve that. I used a smurf account in Europe and my only goal with this account is to focus on my APM, with spamming and tapping method (I'm terran). I think if I force myself to do the tapping during battle and during the time I macro, I will improve my action and mechanic.
After one week I already see result, I keep my money low and i'm more focus in the game, ect ...
But I have a problem, after some games with intense spamming my hand hurt. Don't worry after 1 day of rest I recover.
I just don't understand how it's possible for progamers to play 20 game per day with a 150-200 APM everygame. They are not tired after 3 games ???
For exemple, I'm a very big fan of Kawaiirice and in this replay he has a APM around 200 and same thing for Flash ( a BW hero) http://drop.sc/178342
Just look Losira's hand
How Losira could play like 20 game per day with this crazy APM , when I can even play 2-3 game with max spamming.
I hears that Korean train a lot to this game !!!! But does it means they play even if their hand, arm hurt ? I know it's the case for player like Flash and MVP, but not for all the players ?
Someone told me the Gym could help me to reduce or remove all the hand hurt ?
Please, I don't want to talk about: I don't need APM to win games but rather how it's possible that progamers can play with high APM ?
at least for me the spam is only present early in the game, as the game progresses the spam disappears and you execute only the necessary clicks at a speed faster than normal, but slower than spam. dont think any1 actually 512321351231231321321321454213213412's there way through games.
Yeah, you get that after a while, APM goes to ridiculous amounts when you hardcore spam, but 200 APM is pretty standard for most pros. Of course there's always exceptions at both ends, White Ra hovers around 108, and VIBE has been known to reach 500-600.
Myself personally, once I get warmed up a few games, I average around 120-130 APM.
Part of what you need to learn in spamming APM is not just improving your speed, but reducing the force necessary to complete those tasks. I would guess that your hand is becomming fatigued much more so and faster because when you spam, your hand becomes tense and that your motor movements are using waaaay to much force. Part of dexterity and speed is only using the force necessary to complete what task you are doing.
Musicians learn to do this at an early stage, but the application is something SC players need to be aware of as well. While working on your speed, but be mindful that you aren't tensing your hand up at all, and that you are only using the necessary force to active the switch/keys. Losira's hand movements will make more sense with that in mind.
On October 11 2012 00:23 wo1fwood wrote: Part of what you need to learn in spamming APM is not just improving your speed, but reducing the force necessary to complete those tasks. I would guess that your hand is becomming fatigued much more so and faster because when you spam, your hand becomes tense and that your motor movements are using waaaay to much force.
So 200 APM of spamming tired more than 200 APM of real game logic ?
could you describe where exactly your hand is hurting? maybe you just need to do some stretching or a doctor can help you.
if stretching or a doctor dont help, you will have to play with low apm. having higher apm for the sake of having higher apm objectively gives you no advantage in the game. you could just learn to stay focused without spamming.
my hand used to hurt when i played sc:bw, so i was happy for sc2 to be released.
I am puzzled by this as well, especially with those BW pros playing 50 games a day with 400 apm, I read somewhere that most of them have fucked up hands after their careers. I wonder how they last so long lol.
Pro's spam to stay in the flow of being fast, but you shouldn't spam just to gain a high apm. The goal is to be good, to be good you have to be able to react fast and do multiple things in a very short timespan (such as base management, army movement, unit positioning - the works). However, if you spam random buttons to attain a high apm you are not playing good.
Start out slow by focusing on single tasks and then in subsequent games start to add more tasks. As you have mastered each task it becomes 'automated' in your brain. Once all of those tasks are combined and mastered your apm will average around 200 without too much trouble.
However, if you say your hand starts to hurt after 2-3 games, I doubt you have had enough practise to have mastered every aspect of the game. Take it one step at a time.
Lastly, if your hand hurts you may also simply be playing from the wrong chair, with the wrong mouse(pad) and/or keyboard or they are positioned wrongly. Make sure you properly treat your hands (give them breaks and do stretches). I know there are relevant threads regarding that, though I am currently too lazy to look them up. Make your health a first priority
yea i think when your hands get more relaxed when you spam then they stop hurting. its like when you first start to learn how to drive a car, you legs hurt because they are so tense all the time. but after a while you start relaxing and its stops
On October 11 2012 00:23 wo1fwood wrote: Part of what you need to learn in spamming APM is not just improving your speed, but reducing the force necessary to complete those tasks. I would guess that your hand is becomming fatigued much more so and faster because when you spam, your hand becomes tense and that your motor movements are using waaaay to much force. Part of dexterity and speed is only using the force necessary to complete what task you are doing.
Musicians learn to do this at an early stage, but the application is something SC players need to be aware of as well. While working on your speed, but be mindful that you aren't tensing your hand up at all, and that you are only using the necessary force to active the switch/keys. Losira's hand movements will make more sense with that in mind.
that is a very good point. i feel like i got problems with my arm because i could never learn to do that.
so guys, if you want your kids to become progamers, teach them to do that from the beginning on.
On October 11 2012 00:23 illidan333 wrote: VIBE has 500-600 and most of his game goes into the lategame? If it's true, how can he play more than one game per day ?! :D
Progamers have been training a long time which builds up their muscles and their body is ready for the stress. Like you said, it goes away after 1 day of rest which means it is not permanent damage and probably just fatigue. It is like going to the gym after slacking off for a few months. Their motions are also probably much more efficient than yours and places less stress on their hands.
Like some posters already said, it's all about practise and training the muscles in your hand. Just like playing guitar for instance. What also helps is to warm up your muscles before you start spamming at top speed. So play a few games at a slower pace first.
There are many ways you can prevent wrist pain and damage.
The first is streching, before and after every game. We all have different muscle balances within our body, and thus some may not need to strech, but if your wrist hurts, you.must.strech.
Ice is another. If you really feel it hurting, ice your wrist after playing or while watching replays.
Hand excersizers (grip trainers, gyro balls, etc.) are what many pro-gamers like NoNy use to keep their wrists strong and prevent long term damage.
Also doing fore-arm work outs helps a lot, as these muscles help take the stress off the muscles in your upper wrist.
Also a lot of people have said something correct, you need to use less energy to press the keys. You are probably slamming each key when you are spamming, instead you should try to tap the keys. Maybe think about getting a mechanical keyboard with light switches, as they require much less force to press than many membrane keyboards.
Mate, be careful. You can injure yourself this way.
This is different for everyone. Some people can whack away at the keyboard for hours and hours every day, others can't.
I got some serious RSI years ago while I was on a programming spree (12+ hours of coding / day for several days). Worst of all, my body position was counterproductive. It took years to get myself back to full shape, and I had to stop playing the piano completely.
Now, I'm fine. This is what I do: - At work, I use a tool called workrave to make sure I do breaks. I often stretch during micro-breaks (which are short breaks, around 30 secs). - I spent a lot of time setting up my desk, keyboard position, screens etc. correctly. I use ergonomic keyboards for working (they're useless for gaming because of the keyboards layout). - When playing SC, that's obviously not an option. I try to do some stretches between games (of course, when the bloodlust comes, I just click 'find match' as soon as the last game was over... but that's not really what I should do). - I do a fair amount of sports, mostly rock climbing, swimming and running.
Going to the gym can help, but it can also make matters worse. RSI stands for 'repetitive strain injury', which means you get it because you do some movements repetitively, and often, which is what you need to do for some of the typical gym exercises. I find rock climbing helps, as it strengthens the tendons in a very irregular manner. Swimming while feeling the effects of RSI doesn't help (same as with the gym), but when I'm feeling OK I do it a lot because it strengthens your upper body overall which improves your posture.
That said, you're doing it right: Spam lots, then rest. It's similar to what you do in piano lessons with finger exercises. But you can still hurt yourself permanently this way, and if so, you should ask yourself if it's really worth it.
TL;DR: Spamming OK, but you can hurt yourself this way and not everyone is able to do 200 APM average.
make sure that when you have your hand over your keyboard it's planted on the table in a way that doesn't cut off any circulation, warm up your hands with stretching before you start playing and do some wrist strength exercises.
Potentially forearm strength may factor into this some, you can improve it by progressively working out your arms, either at the gym or at home with some dumbells, or trying one of those hand gripper things while you are not playing. I've heard people complain about mech KBs with black switches and how they make their fingers tired, but if I use anything else it feels super light and weird. So yes it will just take some time and maybe a strength toy like a ball or gripper. Not that I'm the strongest person ever or that my APM is super high, but I usually spam a lot and my hands don't get tired.
As that Day9 guy explains in his video, about the 'Golden bone' is absolutely necessary for a stable hand. This is what I tell users which experience RSI at my work aswell and have been doing this for the past 10 years. You should only use that little bone while moving your mouse.
Furthermore, your hand position compared to the keyboard should be so that you don't get complaints on your wrist. It differs per person, but try and change the height and placement of your keyboard while gaming. Your wrist should lean on the desk aswell for more endurance (just like with the mouse). Chair/Desk height will also be a factor in this scenario, so test the differences in height with your desk chair (assuming your desk chair is adjustable).
For an overall good experience you will need to test your own style, for what feels good for you. I.E. some users like to have their keyboard almost vertical, and some users need it to be mainly horizontal. Try some of this stuff and see with which setting your hand doesn't hurt.
The reason that pro-gamers can play all day is because their hands are on the desk as if it is natural for them. I've been playing RTS on a decent level for years (Red alert 2, CnC3, now Sc2) and I work all day with a computer, so for me it is really important I don't have wrist and/or hand problems after a while of gaming. At work and at home my setup is practically the same, it also differs alot from my colleagues, but it works for me.
Find out which 'setup' works for you and get used to it. After this you can try and spam APM without getting wrist/hand problems after 1 or 2 games. You shouldn't force yourself with difficulties on your hands, because that may result in getting RSI, which is a gamer's worst nightmare.
On October 11 2012 00:23 wo1fwood wrote: Part of what you need to learn in spamming APM is not just improving your speed, but reducing the force necessary to complete those tasks. I would guess that your hand is becomming fatigued much more so and faster because when you spam, your hand becomes tense and that your motor movements are using waaaay to much force.
So 200 APM of spamming tired more than 200 APM of real game logic ?
I'm not sure I understand this question, but if I'm guessing your asking if you get more tired spamming than with real in game apm?
Either way, the answer is no. APM is APM regardless of how or where it is used (or effectiveness), and all it comes down to is the movement of your digits and how that is accomplished. The reason pro players can have multiple games where they have 300+ APM and not get fatigued is because they have learned to refine how they use their keyboard hand to the point where they are only using what is necessary to produce those actions, which in turn allows them to be faster as you are less in the way of yourself physically.
Edit: anyone can reach 200 average APM, regardless of who you are (unless you have some disability that precludes that). 200 is not terribly fast, but may seem that way because you have to link your actions to meaningful uses. That isn't a physical property per se, but a mental exercise that has to be practiced with the involvement of a physical component. Physically getting to a 200 average is possible for everyone, the process of making that 200 average mean something is a little more difficult.
Edit2: I feel like I should to a comprehensive writeup of APM from a musicians perspecitve (practicing 'scales' etc...)
The reason my APM is pretty high (around 190-210 most games) is because I used to play Guitar Hero competitively. Being one of the best Guitar Hero players meant that everyday my hands were moving crazy fast playing it for hours on end. Because of that my hands are naturally fast. But, the only way to utilize those fast hands for playing starcraft involved 3 things.
1. Spam during early game, it really does help warm you up and get used to having a higher APM
2. Watching Starcraft is what lets you see how build orders work and how the mechanics of the game work. Watching lots of starcraft = getting familiar with the mechanics which lets you know what to do, and if you always know what to do in game then you can constantly be moving.
3.The simplest one, play. The more you practice the more you will be used to everything and the better you will get
ok first,your estimation of how many games a korean pro is way of,its atleast double of what u said,20 games u can literraly maybe play in 4-5 hours(hense u can do for example both school and gaming) but as far as it comes to u feeling hurt in the hand maybe the most important question is, whats your age? your hands get alot slower from 30+,why do u think there are so few of 30+year olds that are proffessional gamers?but there can also be other proplems like out of shape(doesn't matter to much)they are also very used to it, and well some of them have wrist bans on their hands and alot of them also stretch before starting their gaming session and i forgot something more but well i forgot.
Im guessing the OP doesnt play any musical instrument. The muscles in your hand needed for APM spam have probably just never been really excersized. Just keep at it and it will get easier with time.
Have a piano or guitar around the house? Derp around with that. That will strengthen your hands quickly.
I've watched my roommate of average 200 apm play, and i looked specifically for where his apm is getting boosted in the mid and late game. What I found is actually, that he does spam all of his control groups randomly in between real actions. You can also see pros do this on their streams. I average around 250 apm the first 3 minutes of the game, and by the end of a 20 minute game my average apm usually has dropped to around 110 because I don't do as much cycling of control groups when the game actually picks up. (I play protoss.)
Here is one of my tip. Spam 2 hotkey in cycle where you actually know what two things you are pressing. Example: I have nexus on 1 and my scouting probe on 5 - early game you will constantly jump between them but not mindlessly cos you know you have to watch constant probes and make sure scout lives. Then as the game goes you will have other two things in a spam cycle. Production building + army (for example) - from time to time make sure you have probes... With this logic, where you spam 2 hotkeys (not mindlessly because you are keeping an eye on those 2 things) you will build up muscle memory and get up your apm and this is the way where you will experience lowest amount of pain on your hand. As you become a beast add 3 hotkey cycle or 4, or whatever clever model you can imagine to help you spam hotkeys for awareness, quick reaction and keeping yourself warm while avoiding hurting yourself. Start with two hotkey spam throughout the game - i promise you higher apm, minimal hurt, and really fast improvement on the things on your 2 hotkeys. gl
First off, high APM is a bad thing. I can guarantee you that all of these pros and players with high APM have some sort of Carpel Tunnel or wrist damage. I used to be a master terran that would ladder 30 games a day, every day and I actually started to develop carpel tunnel until I quit playing all together about 2 months ago and it went away (some pain still lingers buts minor).
What I would suggest is instead of focusing on getting such a high apm and playing a ton of ladder games (useless in my opinion) would be to study the game, know all of the builds, all of the units, all of the races (play all of them), and understand the game in great depth that way you con focus on strategy vs playing really fast and spamming which most pros do.
Slow and steady will win the race in the end and I bet if you studied the strategy aspect of the game more and set up a hot key system that is more efficient and played more efficiently you could get up to the pro level with an apm under 100 without worrying and suffering with wrist damage and/or carpel tunnel.
On October 11 2012 01:08 illidan333 wrote: Does everybody have the pain at the same place ?
When I'm typing fast with the horribly not ergonomic keyboards of my workplace my whole hand hurts like hell. When I play a lot at home I don't feel pain the keyboard hand but my mouse hand starts to get that mix of numbness and pain starting from the wrist and going to the whole hand as well. I need a lot of breaks to be able to game a few hours ): .
My hands hurt constantly. It's just become sort of a normal thing for me where it doesn't register with me unless I'm thinking about it. Between work, games and my freelance illustration work my hands are constantly on a keyboard, mouse or pen and I get zero rest for them unless I'm asleep. You get over it eventually, but I remember when it first started to crop up it was really painful.
I'm certainly not an expert, but i noticed some things during play about this subject. Now, i don't know in what way you hand exactly hurts, so i could be totally wrong.
I play classical piano for a long time, and when studying hard parts it is possible to not notice how your 'stance' changes into a very cramped one. For example you hold your shoulders way higher than you're supposed to. After a while, you arm will hurt. The same with your fingers: when practicing a piece were you need your fingers to be spread wide, your fingers might hurt a lot; not because they are spread too far, but because you don't relax you fingers enough.
I understand the urge to be faster and that you have different techniques you accomplish that. But the advice i'd like to give is to be aware of your hand's state during practice. If it isn't relaxed, relax for a while (could be a few minutes, or longer) and then try again.
I don't know if this will help. It helped me during piano practice as well as gaming (sc2 or osu).
Its very simple , play more.. more games youi play better APM you will have. When i was starting playing SC2 my APM was around 70 , now my average APM is 110-120 without bulshit spaminh keys.
Like most things when you do it for a long time you get used to it. I think my average is 140 but I just don't notice, but my Bronze friends who cruse at a steady 28 say they can't do it any faster, and yet if they play more their APM goes up natuarally without them realising.
Your hands/ wrists will hurt because you are forcing it, you'll see the results faster and get used to the pain after a while
Back when I first heard about tapping and was trying to increase my apm, I played as fast as I could for a game, and got tired. I would max out sometimes at 400 or so, but in the end average 150 just because I couldn't handle it all the time. I now average around 200, up to 225 if im feeling particularly tryhard-ish. The point is, do it every now and then, but know that apm is just a tool, and that the really fast players are thinking faster, not just playing faster than the slower ones. Give it time, and your hands will hurt less, I promise!
On October 11 2012 00:23 illidan333 wrote: VIBE has 500-600
He is Zerg? Its a little bugged for Zerg, because of rally "spam" (zerg bind production units into army hotkey) and zzzzz thing.
No it isn't. Stop spreading this bullshit please.
Holding down buttons doesn't inflate your apm.
Yeah it does? Test it in a game vs the ai. Building 60 supply of zerglings gave me a 1000 apm peak (regular apm in replay). It was for a very short time so I'm not sure how much it influences your average apm, but it isn't bullshit.
On October 11 2012 00:23 illidan333 wrote: VIBE has 500-600
He is Zerg? Its a little bugged for Zerg, because of rally "spam" (zerg bind production units into army hotkey) and zzzzz thing.
No it isn't. Stop spreading this bullshit please.
Holding down buttons doesn't inflate your apm.
Yeah it does? Test it in a game vs the ai. Building 60 supply of zerglings gave me a 1000 apm peak (regular apm in replay). It was for a very short time so I'm not sure how much it influences your average apm, but it isn't bullshit.
It does count towards apm but contributes a tiny amount to your overall apm otherwise every zerg player would be walking around with 500 apm simply from building units.
Honestly having high APM eventually becomes second-nature. Now that I've had around 300+ for years if you include BW times, I almost can't imagine how the heck I ever got along without it. I usually play 20+ games a day all at consistent speed.
I average around 200 APM, my hand us to hurt when i would just spam at the start of the game, over time you develop more endurance in your hand thus you can hit more keys faster. Keep practicing that's the key GLHF!
On October 11 2012 01:20 Yorbon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert, but i noticed some things during play about this subject. Now, i don't know in what way you hand exactly hurts, so i could be totally wrong.
I play classical piano for a long time, and when studying hard parts it is possible to not notice how your 'stance' changes into a very cramped one. For example you hold your shoulders way higher than you're supposed to. After a while, you arm will hurt. The same with your fingers: when practicing a piece were you need your fingers to be spread wide, your fingers might hurt a lot; not because they are spread too far, but because you don't relax you fingers enough.
I understand the urge to be faster and that you have different techniques you accomplish that. But the advice i'd like to give is to be aware of your hand's state during practice. If it isn't relaxed, relax for a while (could be a few minutes, or longer) and then try again.
I don't know if this will help. It helped me during piano practice as well as gaming (sc2 or osu).
i wish i wouldve known about that when i was trying to become a pro ;;
I think people need to focus less on having high APM and more on doing what needs to be done. I've gotten to mid - high masters with about 100 average EPM. I usually only have about 40-50 EMP in the early game because there isn't much to be done when the game is just starting out. Then it slowly increasses as more APM is necessary to do all the actions that are needed. I also spam very little usualy having aroun a 10-15% redundency between EMP and APM. Not sure if spamming for 200-300 apm is really worth it.
I'm plat and average 150 apm and 95 Eapm or w/e you call it, and I tend to feel some pain in the left wrist ( keyboard hand ).
I think my pain is due to my bad hand placement, for instance I always Use the hotkeys 1, 2, 3 for OC, Rax and Starports/Factory when I play T and Hatch, Infestors/Mutas, main army when I play Z, so my hand is placed at a bad spot, but i can't seem to be able to play with the classic OC/Hatch on 5 and army on 1.
So if you have tips on how to get rid of the old way and get better at using 5 for hatch/OC then i'll take it
I play at around 200-250 APM and honestly writing notes for school gives me more cramps and pains than playing for hours. I can't speak for problems in years to come though.
On October 11 2012 00:23 wo1fwood wrote: Part of what you need to learn in spamming APM is not just improving your speed, but reducing the force necessary to complete those tasks. I would guess that your hand is becomming fatigued much more so and faster because when you spam, your hand becomes tense and that your motor movements are using waaaay to much force.
So 200 APM of spamming tired more than 200 APM of real game logic ?
I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if this has been said, but if this is becoming a serious problem to ANYONE they should see a doctor. I play with an average of 100+ APM. I spam lots in early game and then usually my natural macro/micro will keep me on a steady 100-125 once the game has been somewhat established. I personally find I can play easily for 8 hours a day without any serious hand cramping/pain. I do take several breaks throughout, but still play quite constantly.
My brother on the other hand has around the same APM if not a tiny bit higher, and he literally gets pains within the first few games even if they are short. He then went to the doctor and then had to be referred to an Osteopath and needs to go for regular appointments and do several home treatments. One of the treatments involves submersing your entire arm into extremely hot water and then alternating with icy cold water. I think I don't have to convince you that you don't want to have to do this every day just to play SC2 or use your wrist a lot.
So basically my point is if you have any bothersome pain, PLEASE get it looked at! It may be too late if you wait too long like my brother and then have to do daily treatments to do something you love.
people think about this to much ,like its game breaking..
you can sit on 200 apm and still lose against a terran /protoss with around 40-70 apm..
but i digress.
i play zerg and the thing i did with my apm practice was.. I completely stopped spaming in the beginning of every match i played.
i only did the necessary clicks that i have to do, so by doing so i easily could see what my apm was and see when it got higher , and it felt only natural doing so.
when i started get better after a few weeks i was about 70 apm, i started at 50apm.
now few years later and in higher league i am around 150-170 apm in every match i play ,simply because ive practiced alot without the spaming and knowing what to do..
this is something i recommend and it really feels alot better than constantly spaming at start when you really dont need to ,right? it can hurt your hands like OP said.
My hands hurt when I play many games in a row as well playing at ~200ish APM. A lot of it is less repetitive though after the beginning of the game, this is especially true for toss ( main), less so for zerg/terran. When I play a lot of terran my hands hurt a lot more. If I rest and don't play much for a week or two though, the pain is a lot less present.
Doing the hand stretches day9 describes in one of his dailies, and also trying to keep your wrists up when playing helps (this is what you're told to do while playing piano too).
This can help a lot. Day9 had a video going over very similar exercises. If you never stretch and start doing these, it may hurt for the first few days, but you should notice great improvements over time.
I have around 130 APM as Mid/High Masters Protoss. I think APM is overrated. Most of "APM" is more mental than physical - your brain being able to keep up with what is going on.
Spamming and doing silly stuff with your hands during battles or other idle time kind of seems like a waste to me. And most importantly, I am sure the OP is not a pro player, so they should be seeking ways to have more fun with the game rather than hurting themselves for a mostly cosmetic effect. 200 APM is cool, but only if you actually make it meaningful.
Stop spamming for the sake of high apm and repeat your build 100 times on the same map and you too will have super high apm oh and i bet your wrist wouldn't hurt as much
If playing is causing you pain looking into the ergonomics of your setup where you play will decrease the main more effectively than,"just play more and get use to it", or "do some stretches". Your wrist and hands aren't meant to be forced into cramped and/or crooked positions for long periods of time and if your going out of your way to play faster it's very possible your changing the way your hands are positioned on your mouse and keyboard to achieve a higher apm. Keeping your wrist straight by keeping your mouse and keyboard at comfortable distances, having the height of your chair keep your forearms(while arms are bent) even with the height of your equipment to prevent your wrist from angling upward/downward etc. I'd recommend just googling "ergonomics" and messing with your set up to see if it makes you more comfortable and stops some of your pain before you rush off to a doctor or start thinking that your not meant to play that fast.
i have ~380 apm home and NO problem, and my hand hurts with 120 at friends place ... most importent thing is the HIGH OF YOUR TABLE it must be perfect with your chair and your high then you will not have any problems at all (also how far away is best how you hold your hands etc its just personal preferences)
I can play sc2 all day BUT when I practice my mouse accuracy. I tense up and get tired very much faster. You gotta watch these things.
When I bought my steelseries SX mousemat. I noticed that I was using my mouse like I was sandpapering. Very hard downward pressure. Once I noticed and corrected ALL my problems of mouse arm/hand disappeared.
I think you are doing the same thing but with your keyboard hand. Like some people before me suggested. I would also suggest that you perform stretching with your hand/fingers before, sometimes during & after you play. Carpal tunnel is no joke once you get it.
Ps. I even use hard drive packaging to rest my left elbow on because I play so much ^^
There is absolutely no need for needless tapping/APM-spam. If you're doing it to keep taps on stuff, you're just compensating for your lack of keeping track of the timings in your head (which is a given if you practice any given build somewhat elaborately).
haha, i'm interested in this pain you all describe. pain in the fingers/actual wrists?
i don't get that for some reason yet it makes sense. what i do get after hours an hours without break or rest is soreness closer to the elbow and upper arm. i wish i could use my wrist as a pivot more, but the amount of control i get from it isn't something i really like, that's really just -my- flaw.
what really amps me up though is when i really want to win a game a certain way. all those try-hard actions suddenly appear out of nowhere.
for a gauge, i don't remember ever feeling any left-handed pains when playing, but i used to play 30-60 games a day, quite mouse and keyboard balanced when it comes to emphasis (manual unit pathing, selection practice, etc) at 180-240 in-game apm. the arm soreness would come after those 30-40 games and would be comparable to playing badminton for a couple hours without stretching or being in good form (simply put, that feeling is horrendous, it feels like your arm is beginning to tear out).
in hindsight, that was foolish of me. i really recommend some stretching and the mental focus so you don't over-exert yourself. it is a stressful game, but try not to let it show through in your own gameplay.
i now try to play a lot slower but unfortunately a lot of small things slip by me (style related) and that's stressful mentally, haha.
Make sure you're sitting properly as well, with everything at an ideal height/angle for optimum usage. This includes making sure your monitor is slightly tilted, your keyboard is at the perfect height for continued usage etc.
Buy one of these thing, called fixed resistance grips. When you don't anticipate any high stress hand activities, do as a lot of reps. Also, work your forearm by doing things like wrist curls.
Progaming teams make their players exercise regularly so that this doesn't happen.
your apm should not be focused on spam man no offence but your going about improving it the wrong way. pros dont win games cuz they hit 132412341234 alot. if u do your usual stuff just try to switch to something else after your inital action faster . I.E if u make a factory and then usually switch to a scout or to another scv work on making the transition between hitting the scv to build factory and switching to whatever else you want. spamming will not help that
On October 11 2012 03:57 renaissanceMAN wrote: Make sure you're sitting properly as well, with everything at an ideal height/angle for optimum usage. This includes making sure your monitor is slightly tilted, your keyboard is at the perfect height for continued usage etc.
This!
Seriously I sit at a computer all day at wok and I also play alot of starcraft. I think it really comes down to proper posture. and correct desk height and also some physical activity outside of the computer chair.
I'm 26, spent my years playing lots of computer games.
It's why most of them are suffering wrist/hand related injuries in their late 20's and early 30's. It's extremely bad for you to do what 'team houses' do. Yet we all do it, I did it at university (spend endless endless hours in the pc bang).
You can sit at the correct height, have the correct posture, but at the end of the day it doesn't help for playing games. Your force your left hand to do tasks that should be done with a combination of hands. You will have overuse on whatever you use to push shift/ctrl/alt.
Wrists were not designed to do these extreme micro movements over and over for 12hours+ a day. You pay the price eventually.
I've been lucky to avoid carpal tunnel myself, but I have onset of pain much more quickly now in my left pinky (ctrl/shift) and right index (mouse1) fingers than when I was 20 (which I wouldn't feel any pain at all really...).
The generic keyboard itself is terrible for gaming, but it's just such a standard tool that it will never change. We can hope, though.
I'm luck enough to never have sustained any serious wrist injury but I can understand how it can happen in eSports Hopefully with modern keyboards and mice this problem ceases to exist.
On October 11 2012 02:51 ImustnotfeaR wrote: everyones hand has different limits - thats why some people become concert pianists and some do not
no
you become concert pianist if you practise playing piano every day, starting at a very young age. you do not become concert pianist if you dont practise every day.
On October 11 2012 02:51 ImustnotfeaR wrote: everyones hand has different limits - thats why some people become concert pianists and some do not
no
you become concert pianist if you practise playing piano every day, starting at a very young age. you do not become concert pianist if you dont practise every day.
its funny you say that because im a concert pianist and ive only been playing for 3 years and i practice 2 days of the week
I been playing RTS for 10 years, sometimes 12 hours per day. My apm is only around 130, but no pain at all. Fingers just get sore when grinding out 30+ games.
Some advice:
Concentrate on what your fingers are doing at different times of the game, not just the beginning spam fest. Use all 4 or 5 of the fingers on your left hand so every finger is doing work.
Pay attention to your mouse hand. Day 9 describes how it should be. Don't tense up.
On October 11 2012 02:51 Swazi wrote: I think people need to focus less on having high APM and more on doing what needs to be done. I've gotten to mid - high masters with about 100 average EPM. I usually only have about 40-50 EMP in the early game because there isn't much to be done when the game is just starting out. Then it slowly increasses as more APM is necessary to do all the actions that are needed. I also spam very little usualy having aroun a 10-15% redundency between EMP and APM. Not sure if spamming for 200-300 apm is really worth it.
How many pros don't spam? None.
I'm not thrilled about it, but spam helps you to play and think faster. Back in 2002-2004 when I played a lot of BW I was in the same mindset -- I would not spam, spamming is stupid. Now I spam, and I play better because of it. Spam is useless at first, but more and more you're able to convert that apm into eapm.
100 EAPM is enough to do fine if you're not a pro, but you're going to limit yourself eventually. I'll never be a pro, but I'm much better than I was before I spammed.
You can't force (consistent) high APM, it will come naturally. Your hands are hurting because you're trying to make them do an extreme amount of something foreign. It'd be like never running in your life, then randomly one day running a bunch of 100 meter dashes and wondering why your legs hurt.
Health related questions are more appropriate for a doctor. If it really bothers you that much, maybe you should visit a clinic. Someone might have the correct advice for you, but then again it might not be what you need. Dont waste time talking to random people and how they solved their problems. Everyone is different, talk to your doctor to get the most reliable answer and solution.
Other than that...
Improvement comes from grinding games. It really is that simple. The more you play the game, the more comfortable you will become with it.
On October 11 2012 00:12 illidan333 wrote: How Losira could play like 20 game per day with this crazy APM , when I can even play 2-3 game with max spamming.
He doesn't he plays more like 40 games a day I believe. Pretty sure ~20 games is around where Incontrol has stated he plays on average, and he openly admits he is pursuing casting/PR activities moreso than when he was only a player.
Have you ever tried to play guitar? The same principles apply, you need to develop finger and wrist muscles in order to keep playing. The only way you can actually do this is by playing consistently and working hard at improving hand and finger endurance.
Play some piano, helps out nicely. Did a lot of piano years back, can maintain well over 200 apm for 50+ games a day now when I do really mega grind practice sessions.
What is wierdest about this thread is the TS. Korean progamers play more like 30-40 games a day + 200 apm is considered very low by korean standard.
I am a high masters player on EU (haven't played much last year though but enough to keep the rank) and I'm averaging 190-200 SC2 apm. I can play like this for 8h so you probably have hurt writsts in some way or have extremely weak wrist muscles :p
On October 11 2012 02:51 ImustnotfeaR wrote: everyones hand has different limits - thats why some people become concert pianists and some do not
no
you become concert pianist if you practise playing piano every day, starting at a very young age. you do not become concert pianist if you dont practise every day.
its funny you say that because im a concert pianist and ive only been playing for 3 years and i practice 2 days of the week
Think of it like a marathon runner, his long distance pace is probably pretty close to your sprint. Losira and other pros are so highly practiced at high apm play that it doesnt phase them much at all. Their "sprint" would be insanely fast and wouldn't be manageable for too many games even for them.
Best way to increase apm is playing faster than is comfortable for a few games, then playing a few with controlled comfortable speed. Make sure sometimes you are stressing yourself otherwise you will not get better as quickly. Think of it as dif kinds of workouts, you have long distance, shorter distance faster pace, interval workouts ect. All to improve 1 skill which is your "race pace" of an sc2 tournament.
No one ever became the best basketball player in the world by only playing basketball and not working out, doing drills, going over plays. No one became the best 1 miler in the world by only doing the 1 mile, he does his share of long distance, sprints, interval and many dif workouts to improve the 1 race.
APM, for the vast majority, is the last thing one must think about. Im 38 years old and my APM rarely cracks 50. Im currently a 380pt master ranked 9 in my div.
well that is very sick. After watching that vid, i watched MC's warming up hands looool that was funny. Anyway, if it's hurting, try less spamming, that would work.
On October 11 2012 00:12 illidan333 wrote: Hi, I'm a very slow player and I really try to improve that. I used a smurf account in Europe and my only goal with this account is to focus on my APM, with spamming and tapping method (I'm terran). I think if I force myself to do the tapping during battle and during the time I macro, I will improve my action and mechanic.
How Losira could play like 20 game per day with this crazy APM , when I can even play 2-3 game with max spamming.
I hears that Korean train a lot to this game !!!! But does it means they play even if their hand, arm hurt ? I know it's the case for player like Flash and MVP, but not for all the players ?
Someone told me the Gym could help me to reduce or remove all the hand hurt ?
Having the correct posture and doing streches on your wrists in between games is essential if you want to play many games, although you should allready know this because its in the same day 9 daily which u linked.
2 pages and only 1 post worth reading. Everything is just bullshit or false answers that has NOTHING to do with the OP. I'm really getting tired of this shit...
On October 11 2012 00:40 wonnaplay wrote: As that Day9 guy explains in his video, about the 'Golden bone' is absolutely necessary for a stable hand. This is what I tell users which experience RSI at my work aswell and have been doing this for the past 10 years. You should only use that little bone while moving your mouse.
Furthermore, your hand position compared to the keyboard should be so that you don't get complaints on your wrist. It differs per person, but try and change the height and placement of your keyboard while gaming. Your wrist should lean on the desk aswell for more endurance (just like with the mouse). Chair/Desk height will also be a factor in this scenario, so test the differences in height with your desk chair (assuming your desk chair is adjustable).
For an overall good experience you will need to test your own style, for what feels good for you. I.E. some users like to have their keyboard almost vertical, and some users need it to be mainly horizontal. Try some of this stuff and see with which setting your hand doesn't hurt.
The reason that pro-gamers can play all day is because their hands are on the desk as if it is natural for them. I've been playing RTS on a decent level for years (Red alert 2, CnC3, now Sc2) and I work all day with a computer, so for me it is really important I don't have wrist and/or hand problems after a while of gaming. At work and at home my setup is practically the same, it also differs alot from my colleagues, but it works for me.
Find out which 'setup' works for you and get used to it. After this you can try and spam APM without getting wrist/hand problems after 1 or 2 games. You shouldn't force yourself with difficulties on your hands, because that may result in getting RSI, which is a gamer's worst nightmare.
I do believe though that you need your arm positioning horizontally. I don't believe having it vertically is good because of the blood circulation (the most important thing if you don't want to get hurt). So yeah you need a chair where you can lie down your elbows. I've been playing a lot of games in BW and i've never been hurt (read 12 years).
On October 11 2012 08:32 RaiZ wrote: 2 pages and only 1 post worth reading. Everything is just bullshit or false answers that has NOTHING to do with the OP. I'm really getting tired of this shit...
On October 11 2012 00:40 wonnaplay wrote: As that Day9 guy explains in his video, about the 'Golden bone' is absolutely necessary for a stable hand. This is what I tell users which experience RSI at my work aswell and have been doing this for the past 10 years. You should only use that little bone while moving your mouse.
Furthermore, your hand position compared to the keyboard should be so that you don't get complaints on your wrist. It differs per person, but try and change the height and placement of your keyboard while gaming. Your wrist should lean on the desk aswell for more endurance (just like with the mouse). Chair/Desk height will also be a factor in this scenario, so test the differences in height with your desk chair (assuming your desk chair is adjustable).
For an overall good experience you will need to test your own style, for what feels good for you. I.E. some users like to have their keyboard almost vertical, and some users need it to be mainly horizontal. Try some of this stuff and see with which setting your hand doesn't hurt.
The reason that pro-gamers can play all day is because their hands are on the desk as if it is natural for them. I've been playing RTS on a decent level for years (Red alert 2, CnC3, now Sc2) and I work all day with a computer, so for me it is really important I don't have wrist and/or hand problems after a while of gaming. At work and at home my setup is practically the same, it also differs alot from my colleagues, but it works for me.
Find out which 'setup' works for you and get used to it. After this you can try and spam APM without getting wrist/hand problems after 1 or 2 games. You shouldn't force yourself with difficulties on your hands, because that may result in getting RSI, which is a gamer's worst nightmare.
I do believe though that you need your arm positioning horizontally. I don't believe having it vertically is good because of the blood circulation (the most important thing if you don't want to get hurt). So yeah you need a chair where you can lie down your elbows. I've been playing a lot of games in BW and i've never been hurt (read 12 years).
Very true, I kind of phrased that wrongly. Getting the keyboard vertical can't be good for your hand. What I should've said is changing the keyboard in a 'x' degrees. With 'almost vertically' I bassicly ment rotating the keyboard almost 180 degrees.
For an example; whenever I play I change my keyboard for about 20 degrees so that my whole arm can relax on the desktop while having my fingers on the appropriate keys, without having my hand in an ackward position
Glad atleast someone saw my post, was wondering if everyone just spammed nonsense or was actually trying to be productive
On October 11 2012 08:32 RaiZ wrote: 2 pages and only 1 post worth reading. Everything is just bullshit or false answers that has NOTHING to do with the OP. I'm really getting tired of this shit...
On October 11 2012 00:40 wonnaplay wrote: As that Day9 guy explains in his video, about the 'Golden bone' is absolutely necessary for a stable hand. This is what I tell users which experience RSI at my work aswell and have been doing this for the past 10 years. You should only use that little bone while moving your mouse.
Furthermore, your hand position compared to the keyboard should be so that you don't get complaints on your wrist. It differs per person, but try and change the height and placement of your keyboard while gaming. Your wrist should lean on the desk aswell for more endurance (just like with the mouse). Chair/Desk height will also be a factor in this scenario, so test the differences in height with your desk chair (assuming your desk chair is adjustable).
For an overall good experience you will need to test your own style, for what feels good for you. I.E. some users like to have their keyboard almost vertical, and some users need it to be mainly horizontal. Try some of this stuff and see with which setting your hand doesn't hurt.
The reason that pro-gamers can play all day is because their hands are on the desk as if it is natural for them. I've been playing RTS on a decent level for years (Red alert 2, CnC3, now Sc2) and I work all day with a computer, so for me it is really important I don't have wrist and/or hand problems after a while of gaming. At work and at home my setup is practically the same, it also differs alot from my colleagues, but it works for me.
Find out which 'setup' works for you and get used to it. After this you can try and spam APM without getting wrist/hand problems after 1 or 2 games. You shouldn't force yourself with difficulties on your hands, because that may result in getting RSI, which is a gamer's worst nightmare.
I do believe though that you need your arm positioning horizontally. I don't believe having it vertically is good because of the blood circulation (the most important thing if you don't want to get hurt). So yeah you need a chair where you can lie down your elbows. I've been playing a lot of games in BW and i've never been hurt (read 12 years).
Very true, I kind of phrased that wrongly. Getting the keyboard vertical can't be good for your hand. What I should've said is changing the keyboard in a 'x' degrees. With 'almost vertically' I bassicly ment rotating the keyboard almost 180 degrees.
For an example; whenever I play I change my keyboard for about 20 degrees so that my whole arm can relax on the desktop while having my fingers on the appropriate keys, without having my hand in an ackward position
Glad atleast someone saw my post, was wondering if everyone just spammed nonsense or was actually trying to be productive
Oh yeah didn't interpret like it, 180 degree ? You mean 90 degree ? lol ^^ I do that too kind of, before I used the thumb for the left ctrl and got used to it for a long time, but then I used my pinky finger and rotating the keyboard to 5-10 degree helped to the transition. Haven't changed since then.
I had a piano teacher that said when ever his hands got achy he would get a bowl of ice water and soak his hands in it for as long as he could. Then he'd rinse them under hot water until he couldn't stand the heat anymore, and then repeat 2-3 times. When ever my hands started to hurt from playing the piano or playing video games, I would do this and it always helped.
Also always remember to do some sort of warm up before you start spamming apm in a ladder game. Try to do some hand stretches also. When you do hand stretches though, remember not to put too much unnecessary strain or force on your fingers. Like some people will pop/crack every joint in their and which to me seems like something does more harm than good.
On October 12 2012 09:25 Liszt wrote: I had a piano teacher that said when ever his hands got achy he would get a bowl of ice water and soak his hands in it for as long as he could. Then he'd rinse them under hot water until he couldn't stand the heat anymore, and then repeat 2-3 times. When ever my hands started to hurt from playing the piano or playing video games, I would do this and it always helped.
Also always remember to do some sort of warm up before you start spamming apm in a ladder game. Try to do some hand stretches also. When you do hand stretches though, remember not to put too much unnecessary strain or force on your fingers. Like some people will pop/crack every joint in their and which to me seems like something does more harm than good.
ok from a sports perspective i use my hands a lot.. and during the winter months of training... we were told to never go straight from ice cold to hot.. it actually damages your nerves really badly... the helping your feeling is the numbness from the cold. and nerves not feeling anything.. unless your going from ice cold and moving up to hot water thats different.. but from straight ice to boiling hot... not good at all..
but with the op. its called "conditioning" like anything - example u wanna do a 15km run... well your not going to fully be able to run it in the first day at a great speed but after a while doing that speed your body adjusts to it and you get better ad better and better... im sure the pros didn't start out at 200 apm in the first ever match...
As someone who is only a spectator to SC2, the only thing I can sort of relate to with regards to this topic would be playing Beatmania IIDX. As dead as the game is (at least for me since CS versions are no longer and I don't live in Japan), I still keep trying to play at least a few times a week just to keep my skill up and to keep my wrist "stamina" up. But what I can relate though is that the more I played and the more I got better, the more that certain actions that used to stress my wrists no longer cause the same strain. Mind you this was a process that took some years; it was nowhere near instant. I can only imagine something similar occurs with a good amount of SC2 pros.
And if it did ever get fairly bad, I used to also do something similar to what was described in the piano teacher scenario, just minus the cold water.
And now I got the bug to play some more IIDX, thanks for reminding me
Set up your keyboard position so that you do not have to bent your wrist to reach the keyboard. Bending your wrist make your muscle and nerves there more vulnerable to injury, especially from pro-long usage. Simply put, keep your forearm, wrist and your hand a straight line.
2. Force applied to your fingers
To have high APM, we do not need to press the keyboard HARD. Instead, we should aim for hitting another key as fast as possible.In other words, try to hit the keys as soft as possible so you need less muscle contraction to perform the same actions. It is true that muscles take time to grow, so do not force yourself to be as fast as Vibe right away, give time to your body to adjust to your gaming style.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you are feeling hurt, reduce your practice hours!! If doing sth hurt you, and you simply keep on forcing yourself to do more of it, you can easily get yourself into permanent damage. Failing SC2 is bad, but failing SC2 with a damaged wrist/hand is even worse. If your body cannot change that quickly to afford your training session, give it time. If it hurts too much, find a doctor before it is too late. It is such a tragedy for someone to be so passionate that he drives himself into injuries without consciously knowing that.
I agree with everyone that said you should try to do things in a minimal way with everyhing else relaxed. You shoul also watch out so your joints mostly are in a normal possision. Not bended In any direction. If you still feel hurt you should stop playing or play a lesser amount and with regular breaks since else you will prossibly get permanent damage. I have played the violin sincei was 4 and some people i grew up with have hurt themself in this way after some years of full time studying music. I got the imression that this kind of injuries comes after some years and feel afraid that soon the time is up for some progamers that began playing a lot 3 years ago.
Maybe you're using too much force to press the keys.. Relax ur fingers a bit, keep it warm.. And use mechanical keyboard. They help A LOT! U only need to press halfway for the keys to register, that is 50% less energy for ur fingers.
I believe that hand speed comes from your brain's ability to utilize your fingers, and not from the muscles in your hands. Many people may think that hand speed can be gained by working out the finger muscles, but i dont think this is true. Fast hands are not a result of large sweeping motions, but very subtle and soft motions which can only be done when your brain has developed a good understanding of how to utilize every muscle in your fingers.
And i think mods should warn or bann anyone saying to ignore the pain in one way or an other. Giving wrong advice in this subject is 1000 times worse then giving wrong advice in strategy forum.
I dont think spamming is necessary. As you said your self "your hands hurt" so not spamming would be the obvious thing to do.
I personally don't spam. I still average about 120 apm at end game, early game i will average 50 - 60 without spam. I don't benefit from spamming at all. When i need my max apm, ill have my max apm with spam or without spam. Also i continue to get faster without spam.
The type of mouse and the angle your keyboard is at has great influence for the rsi like problems. It varies per person since not everyone has the same hand shapes or structure.
you should also review how you are sitting and whether your keyboard/mouse is at a comfortable height. You should use a very good mouse pad and make sure the cord isn't rubbing against any rough surfaces as the extra friction just adds extra strain.
The technique that you use to hit the keys and click also has a huge effect, but these habits might be difficult to change. Try to use less force as previous posters have stated, make sure how you clicking and hitting the keys aren't at any weird angles or puts strain on your hand.
APM DOES NOT make you a good player. I shit you not. One of the reasons why higher level players have higher APM is because there is a lot of stuff that you need to do while macroing that lower tier players don't actually see. Have a better understanding of the game, then go on to use the minimal amount of key presses you actually NEED, not want. Same thing with micro, spam clicking A+left mouse button doesn't make your army kill faster in all cases. You should focus on re positioning your army with your APM and use spellcasters to their highest potential, not mindlessly spam away.
Aside from that which you do not want to hear, 1. Stretches. So important to your fingers, they help a lot to reduce the strain in your fingers. 2. Grab a wrist brace or two, and the ones that you wear at night. They put your wrist in the optimal resting position so your wrists can heal up from your spamming. 3. Keep playing the game. You'll get used to it. No pain, no gain.
On October 11 2012 00:23 illidan333 wrote: VIBE has 500-600 and most of his game goes into the lategame? If it's true, how can he play more than one game per day ?! :D
Because when he actually has to do something, his APM drops to 60.
Aside from that, what all the others correctly (and sometimes incorrectly) wrote, I have still a small hint for you.
I know that from playing piano. When I learn a new song, my back and hands convulse without me noticing it. After maybe 1 hour of practice I lean back as I take a small break. Then I notice how everything hurts (mostly back and wrist) so I just stop for now. (I don't play on a serious level, so I can afford to stop whenever I want ) Once I'm getting used to play that song, the moves get more fluid, the mind is more relaxed as well. Then I can start to increase the speed (if necessary) without even worrying about that pain anymore.
In short: Unknown moves = convulse body; known moves = relaxed body
And just because I think its uber important:
Stop playing immediately. Consult with your doctor before playing again.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/a/img197/9204/hands.jpg)
Hopefully with modern keyboards and mice this problem ceases to exist.
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