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On September 01 2012 09:04 soiii wrote:
The balance whine in this thread is a disgrace. David Kim and his team have done a great job balancing the game, we should not question their decisions when to patch what.
Also the arguments about Taeja and MVP just being the best players are plain stupid and already known from zerg back when Nestea "just was the best player".
Grow up and focus on getting better at the game instead of this useless discussion please.
wait, you play zerg right?
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On September 01 2012 09:20 Pulimuli wrote:
So... Zerg has problems vs Terran = buff the shit outa Zerg
Terran has problems vs Zerg = lets let the game evolve
here in lies my problem.
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On September 01 2012 09:39 Belisarius wrote:
I would totally support a slow-and-careful approach to balance if their very last patch hadn't made enormous, sweeping, totally unwarranted changes to a matchup.
Double standards, bro.
So you'd support it, but because of the queen patch you'll never support it again? Let the random patches commence.
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I lol'd hard, all the people in the first few pages of the "Call to Action" thread were so shocked that Terran was getting a buff.
Blizz: "Terran Buff"
Terran: "Really?!"
Blizz: "Psych!"
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I'd just like to chime in again and remind you all to really realize that it literally doesn't matter what change Kim proposed or dismissed, there would still be the exact same number of people in here saying he's an idiot and incompetent.
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On September 01 2012 10:04 Jerubaal wrote:
I'd just like to chime in again and remind you all to really realize that it literally doesn't matter what change Kim proposed or dismissed, there would still be the exact same number of people in here saying he's an idiot and incompetent.
Wrong; I liked David Kim before this, now I think he's just being an idiot.
(spoiler: balance discussion)
+ Show Spoiler +
Before the queen buff TvZ was BY FAR the best match up to watch, the problem the queen change gave is that Terran is always behind in macro, and to compensate, damage to the mineral line was vital to be able to keep up with Zerg. The queen buff not only made it impossible for hellions/marines to kite queens early-game (where the damage done actually matters), but it allowed the Zerg players to be RIDICULOUSLY greedy...
Seriously, a unit that helps with macro (larva), helps with map control (creep spread), is superior to all early game air and ground unit choices the opponent can make, and it doesn't even use up a production slot.
It also takes away a lot of the decision making that made great Zergs stand out; when to build lings, when to drone. If you don't need lings to defend because you have queens, you can dedicate 100% of your larva to drone production, leaving yourself only mildly open to an all-in.
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The cycle goes as following:
Terran players in the world cheer for fellow pro Terrans like Mvp or Teaja ->
These pros manage to win TvZ despite the fact that many Terrans think Z is OP ->
Terran players in the world are happy to see that their best of the best wins what they consider difficult match-up ->
David Kim sees the matches/winrates including these games->
TvZ is fine, or so he thinks ->
No buff for Terran ->
Majority of Terrans who don't have Mvp or Teaja level of skill is screwed on ladder->
Terrans: "but we shouldn't blame our best of the best for doing fine even if that's the reason why there is no buff for us..."->
History repeats itself ->
Have we come to the point where Terran players cheer for Zerg when watching TvZ? Or, it doesn't happen for a good reason?
Come to think of it, what a dilemma people have...
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On September 01 2012 10:16 Orek wrote:
Majority of Terrans who don't have Mvp or Teaja level of skill is screwed on ladder->
To be fair, I'd say anyone under high masters won't even notice a patch change. If you're mid-masters or lower, you lose due to mistakes YOU do(Be it mismicro, macro, etc), and the other person being better.
A minor change to the game won't make or break lower leagues like it will the top .1%
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Taeja/MvP are like those students that get 100% on exams everyone fails, so the curve is ruined for the rest of class. :<.
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When zergs whinge David Kim comes riding in on a white horse making unnecessary changes, good to see they aren't going to make the same mistakes again and screw the game up with their over zealous "balancing"
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On September 01 2012 10:22 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 10:16 Orek wrote:
Majority of Terrans who don't have Mvp or Teaja level of skill is screwed on ladder-> To be fair, I'd say anyone under high masters won't even notice a patch change. If you're mid-masters or lower, you lose due to mistakes YOU do(Be it mismicro, macro, etc), and the other person being better. A minor change to the game won't make or break lower leagues like it will the top .1%
your probably right, this patch would have been so small, that it would probably not even matter in 9 out of 10 games even for the pros.....but the fact that they where about to nerf zerg, that was what let all the terrans hope that blizz finally realized that tvz is broken as fuck....but obviosly david kim grabs himself a bag of popcorn watches a little bit of IEM sees some terran do cute stuff with those ravens and thinks "holy fuck that raven shit is imba, no way tvz is broken, we will force those terrans into that raven shit if they want or not"
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On September 01 2012 10:30 Poiple wrote:
When zergs whinge David Kim comes riding in on a white horse making unnecessary changes, good to see they aren't going to make the same mistakes again and screw the game up with their over zealous "balancing"
Remember 2010 and early 2011, when Zerg was much much worse than Terran, and it took them nearly a year to get it even close to 50%?
This patch isn't even that imbalanced...and according to the article it's starting to get close to(If it's not) 50% as Terran are changing things up.
On September 01 2012 10:31 uzushould wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 10:22 Seam wrote:On September 01 2012 10:16 Orek wrote:
Majority of Terrans who don't have Mvp or Teaja level of skill is screwed on ladder-> To be fair, I'd say anyone under high masters won't even notice a patch change. If you're mid-masters or lower, you lose due to mistakes YOU do(Be it mismicro, macro, etc), and the other person being better. A minor change to the game won't make or break lower leagues like it will the top .1% your probably right, this patch would have been so small, that it would probably not even matter in 9 out of 10 games even for the pros.....but the fact that they where about to nerf zerg, that was what let all the terrans hope that blizz finally realized that tvz is broken as fuck....but obviosly david kim grabs himself a bag of popcorn watches a little bit of IEM and bases his decisions if a race is OP or not on single games, what a retard
Did you read the article at all?
He said overall winrates are stabilizing, and then to give an example of some things Terran are doing he talked about recent tournaments.
He didn't go "Well, one person is doing good, KEEPING THIS!" he went "Well, Terran OVERALL are bringing it back in line. Keeping this."
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On September 01 2012 10:30 Poiple wrote:
When zergs whinge David Kim comes riding in on a white horse making unnecessary changes, good to see they aren't going to make the same mistakes again and screw the game up with their over zealous "balancing"
As bad of a state as terran is in atm, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with this. Just stop making changes to the game and let strategies naturally get figured out.
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On September 01 2012 09:52 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 09:48 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 01 2012 09:11 ZAiNs wrote:On September 01 2012 09:08 Zealot Lord wrote:On September 01 2012 09:03 ZAiNs wrote:I'm disappointed he didn't say anything about the stale state of PvZ  . I suspect its because there needs to be too large scale of a change to fix the lategame issues - and thus it likely will be addressed through HOTS. Something like making Brood Lords 6 supply instead of 4 (which is kind of ridiculous) is worth considering still. BLs are 4 supply? Wow! They are godly units and should be changed to 6 soon. I can't even imagine how to beat spread out BLs in PvZ late game. Even the pros can typically only do it with a Mothership Vortex and when the BLs/Infestors/Corruptors are all clumped up. I'm dumb nevermind, because I think after you use up the corruptor it only costs a total of 4 supply
Yeah, according to Liquipedia they are only 4 supply after morph. That is... frightening.
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LOL. Zergs have a little trouble dealing with hellions in the early game: HOLY SHIT WE GOTTA BUFF QUEENS NOW! Terrans consistently have trouble with dealing Zerg greed for 3 months: Let's wait for the metagame to shift... Oh I see godlike IMMVP can beat european zergs... Oh it's perfectly balanced now.
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On September 01 2012 10:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 10:12 InoyouS2 wrote:On September 01 2012 10:04 Jerubaal wrote:
I'd just like to chime in again and remind you all to really realize that it literally doesn't matter what change Kim proposed or dismissed, there would still be the exact same number of people in here saying he's an idiot and incompetent. Wrong; I liked David Kim before this, now I think he's just being an idiot. (spoiler: balance discussion) + Show Spoiler +
Before the queen buff TvZ was BY FAR the best match up to watch, the problem the queen change gave is that Terran is always behind in macro, and to compensate, damage to the mineral line was vital to be able to keep up with Zerg. The queen buff not only made it impossible for hellions/marines to kite queens early-game (where the damage done actually matters), but it allowed the Zerg players to be RIDICULOUSLY greedy...
Seriously, a unit that helps with macro (larva), helps with map control (creep spread), is superior to all early game air and ground unit choices the opponent can make, and it doesn't even use up a production slot.
It also takes away a lot of the decision making that made great Zergs stand out; when to build lings, when to drone. If you don't need lings to defend because you have queens, you can dedicate 100% of your larva to drone production, leaving yourself only mildly open to an all-in.
That TvZ was the best match-up is just your opinion. High horse, off it.
It was the majority opinion.
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On September 01 2012 10:00 klops wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 09:20 Pulimuli wrote:
So... Zerg has problems vs Terran = buff the shit outa Zerg
Terran has problems vs Zerg = lets let the game evolve here in lies my problem.
Zerg has problems vs Terran for the first year and a half = buff zerg
Terran has problems vs Zerg for 3 months = let the game evolve
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It's hard for terran, but I would approve of giving it time to balance. I am somewhat annoyed by the constant terran nerfing after shorter periods of time than this. (basically they will nerf terran after a couple months, just as it begins to narrow)
It was a longer period of time, but near the end in both cases you saw an evolution. It worked out fine both times, but it's not how I'd like the philosophy to be.
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On September 01 2012 10:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 10:12 InoyouS2 wrote:On September 01 2012 10:04 Jerubaal wrote:
I'd just like to chime in again and remind you all to really realize that it literally doesn't matter what change Kim proposed or dismissed, there would still be the exact same number of people in here saying he's an idiot and incompetent. Wrong; I liked David Kim before this, now I think he's just being an idiot. (spoiler: balance discussion) + Show Spoiler +
Before the queen buff TvZ was BY FAR the best match up to watch, the problem the queen change gave is that Terran is always behind in macro, and to compensate, damage to the mineral line was vital to be able to keep up with Zerg. The queen buff not only made it impossible for hellions/marines to kite queens early-game (where the damage done actually matters), but it allowed the Zerg players to be RIDICULOUSLY greedy...
Seriously, a unit that helps with macro (larva), helps with map control (creep spread), is superior to all early game air and ground unit choices the opponent can make, and it doesn't even use up a production slot.
It also takes away a lot of the decision making that made great Zergs stand out; when to build lings, when to drone. If you don't need lings to defend because you have queens, you can dedicate 100% of your larva to drone production, leaving yourself only mildly open to an all-in.
That TvZ was the best match-up is just your opinion. High horse, off it.
yes as long as there is one single person on the planet who thinks different one could allways say something is only "your own opinion", i mean if i say to shit in a glass, piss on it and then drink it isn t tasty, it would be also just my own opinion while 9999 ouf of 10000 people would agree.........you know that tvz was considered to be the most dynamic and interesting matchup to watch, so where the fuck is you point about this "just your opinion"-thing?
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EPT
