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On August 26 2012 19:43 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:39 BgSBendeR wrote:
Indeed, No one forced eSF players to take part in the OSL. Most of them chose to do so on their own because it was another major tournament in Korea in which they can participate and potentially win since KeSPA players were just new to SC2..
So saying they wouldn't take part in they knew KeSPA was not going to take part in GSL to begin with is completely retarded logic. There isn't much opportunity in Korea for eSF players. So getting a second tournament in which most of them can play in was a pretty nice thing.
eSF are basically screwing over their lesser known players in the long run simply because those guys don't really get a salary and their only chance to make a new for themselves is like once every GSL which lasts for months..
OGN can make the OSL a KesPA player only league like it was in the past and that would hurt eSF players a lot more... You really must have missed the prior communications between Kespa, Gom and Blizzard. They were working out a solution, and it was there, ready and waiting. Gom players participate in OGN leagues, and Kespa players participate in Gom leagues. Kespa agrees to the part that benefits them (Gom players in the OSL), but refuses to fulfill their part of the deal (sending Kespa players to the GSL). It's ridiculous to believe that OSL is just another league that popped up without any political implications.
Exactly, since GOM had to allow them the rights to broadcast SC2 in the first place.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51717 Posts
On August 26 2012 19:40 ImNightmare wrote:
???? Still no annoucement? Fuck this is good. Kespa is really thinking hard on its next move. Shall we macro up? Or do we counter attack
its sunday. :/
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On August 26 2012 19:42 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:41 Bippzy wrote:
Interesting how public opinion slowly shifts, its as if everyone forgot about before eSF made the current move. Everyone was like "good, but they stilll shouldn't play till season 4 gsl has kespa players". They make this decision combined with ogns nice little PR announcement, and now gom is an asshole.
I would still applaud them for having the balls to do it. In this case, the ends justify the means, regardless of eSF backing out of a started tournament whereas osl never was in. Actually, nothing shifted. There's just a small vocal minority of people, probably BW fans, who have been making many comments.
And you counter them with impeccable logic and reason? And what does being BW fans have anything to do with this? If they say the right things, they are still the correct side in this argument. But you have to cop out for the sake of discussion of course.
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On August 26 2012 19:42 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:36 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 19:33 boxman22 wrote:On August 26 2012 19:32 ShadeR wrote:
Business as usual for GOM.
OGN gets fucked.
People still don't get it. You'd rather have GOM get fucked, business better than ever for OGN? what? did he explicitly say he wanted Gom to be the one fucked over instead? It's also debatable whether or not KeSPA players not participating in the next GSL even hurts GOM.... No shit it doesn't help GOM but it 'hurts' GOM? I am not so sure. OGN the tv station (not some fucking KeSPA subdivision which people seem to not get) allows unlicensed players to participate in the OSL and out of nowhere lose half the competitors in the Ro16. Tell me who is getting fucked.
ESF decided that allowing KeSPA (OGN is part of KeSPA, it's on the board whether you like it or not) the only league with all of the major SC2 players was not in their best interest. Presumably because KeSPA will do anything it can to crush competitors and get a monopoly. Who knows if KeSPA actually would join GSL season 5? ESF said put your money where your mouth is. We will not take part until you actually allow people to join a GSL qualifier.
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On August 26 2012 19:24 boxman22 wrote:Also this is my favorite quote: + Show Spoiler +"KeSPA players will be presented at SC2 Proleague, OSL, WCG Korean representative qualifiers, WCS and MLG online matches, MLG final invitational. Their regular week schedule will be 4 days for Proleague, 2 days for OSL, 2days for MLG cross matches.
Therefore, KeSPA decided not to join GSL Season 4 because of their busy schedule" Let's look at it from an individual's standpoint. 1 day a week proleague. Maybe 1 day a week OSL. Maybe 1 day a week WCS. And I have no idea what the hell they mean by MLG cross matches, since they're given seeds to the MLG which is one weekend (and if they mean the qualifiers that is just about once every 10 days assuming they keep winning)... Obviously MUUUUUCH too busy. Compare that to any given GOM pro. OSL, WCS, MLG, IPL, IPTL, ESV, Dreamhack, IEM, NASL, and GSL/GSTL...
It's not even that, WCS has 4 Kespa players, WCG also has 4, OSL has 8. Only Jangbi, Baby and Rain are in more than 1 of these. I think there are 3 matches left in PL for the 4 teams that are still in? The average Kespa player has something like 0.7 leagues to worry about, certainly a lot less than they did when MSL was still running. If they are referring to a secret "Big Project" as a reason to drop out, that project better be the size of PL to work as an excuse.
I agree with the posters that say that pulling out of OSL is a much bigger thing than not attending GSL before it has started, but it's the only move the ESF has that can influence Kespa in any way.
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On August 26 2012 19:45 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:42 achan1058 wrote:On August 26 2012 19:41 Bippzy wrote:
Interesting how public opinion slowly shifts, its as if everyone forgot about before eSF made the current move. Everyone was like "good, but they stilll shouldn't play till season 4 gsl has kespa players". They make this decision combined with ogns nice little PR announcement, and now gom is an asshole.
I would still applaud them for having the balls to do it. In this case, the ends justify the means, regardless of eSF backing out of a started tournament whereas osl never was in. Actually, nothing shifted. There's just a small vocal minority of people, probably BW fans, who have been making many comments. And you counter them with impeccable logic and reason? And what does being BW fans have anything to do with this? If they say the right things, they are still the correct side in this argument. But you have to cop out for the sake of discussion of course.
I wasn't countering anything with that comment. It's just an observation. Most pro-KeSPA posts have a T1 tag on them.
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On August 26 2012 19:41 Bippzy wrote:
Interesting how public opinion slowly shifts, its as if everyone forgot about before eSF made the current move. Everyone was like "good, but they stilll shouldn't play till season 4 gsl has kespa players". They make this decision combined with ogns nice little PR announcement, and now gom is an asshole.
I would still applaud them for having the balls to do it. In this case, the ends justify the means, regardless of eSF backing out of a started tournament whereas osl never was in.
This is news thread over page 20.
In all this threads you have the same guys repeating the same arguments.
I think most people are still with ESF. But what to post? They said it once and there is nothing to discuss left.
On August 26 2012 19:42 achan1058 wrote:
Actually, nothing shifted. There's just a small vocal minority of people, probably BW fans, who have been making many comments. Most of the out-raged people basically came in, make a few lines, and left again and not discuss this further.
Why does all the new guys think: BW fan = kespa fan. That is and was never the case.
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On August 26 2012 19:40 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:38 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 19:21 boag11 wrote:On August 26 2012 19:10 disciple wrote:On August 26 2012 19:03 monkybone wrote:On August 26 2012 18:58 disciple wrote:
jeopardizing a running tournament with a set sponsorship is really throwing the nukes by ESF. how is KeSPA all in the wrong I cant understand. It's all there in the announcement. With the recent communication between Kespa and Gom it was more than expected that Kespa would actively participate in GSL and Gom in OSL. It was absolutely obligatory for continued cooperation between them. With the Gom players helping with making the first OSL a success, Kespa pulling out of the GSL at the same time is a huge stab in the back, and without the trust of Kespa participating continually in the GSL Gom would be killing themselves serving Kespa by sending their players to the OSL. I understand that, but KeSPA pulling out of the GSL has no direct consequences on the tournament right now, unlike ESF's move which basically fucks up the OSL completely. The whole situation screams of power tripping and lack of communication, and the measures taken by ESF are to me as extreme and immature as they can get. Kespa pulling out of GSL 4 might not have any immediate consequences but it can have affects for many tournaments down the road when it involves ESF and Kespa players. And with ESFs decision, even though it hurts now, it may perhaps be better for esports overall in the long run. Sometimes one must be sacrificed in order to save the many. How many times must this be made clear. KESPA NEVER PULLED OUT OF GSL4. THEY WERE NEVER IN IT TO BEGIN WITH.Looking back at the sequence of events, it was GSL who pulled the first punch with the statement "We are regretful KeSPA will not participate in GSL4" followed up with "We defer OSL participation". It looks more like GSL got frustrated with KeSPA foot dragging but the fact remains, GSL and eSF are the ones breaking agreements and being dicks here. This is so naive.. There were agreements behind the scenes, of course Kespa had to participate in the GSL in order for the Gom players to participate in the OSL. This was a requirement for cooperation in the first place. Why would the players just let Kespa take over korean esports? It was expected the Kespa participated in the GSL next season, and ESF was shocked to find out Kespa didn't intend to.
Not naive at all. The blame could be laid on the agreement itself for being so vague and open to interpretation. If one party thinks it means one thing and the other thinks something different, then the agreement is at fault.
It's like you and I enter an agreement to share food in the future. You think the very next meal will be shared and I think from next week after I've got my house in order.
What eSF has done however is promise to share food tonight but at the last moment said, I change my mind.
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On August 26 2012 19:46 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:41 Bippzy wrote:
Interesting how public opinion slowly shifts, its as if everyone forgot about before eSF made the current move. Everyone was like "good, but they stilll shouldn't play till season 4 gsl has kespa players". They make this decision combined with ogns nice little PR announcement, and now gom is an asshole.
I would still applaud them for having the balls to do it. In this case, the ends justify the means, regardless of eSF backing out of a started tournament whereas osl never was in. This is news thread over page 20. In all this threads you have the same guys repeating the same arguments. I think most people are still with ESF. But what to post? They said it once and there is nothing to discuss left. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:42 achan1058 wrote:
Actually, nothing shifted. There's just a small vocal minority of people, probably BW fans, who have been making many comments. Most of the out-raged people basically came in, make a few lines, and left again and not discuss this further. Why does all the new guys think: BW fan = kespa fan. That is and was never the case.
I didn't, I am saying KeSPA fans are pretty much all BW fans. The inclusion goes the other way. I don't think there are any non-BW fans who are KeSPA fans.
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ESF are the bad guys here, you are blind and biased if you dont see it. You dont take a part in a tournament and pull out at the last minute to blackmail someone. They did it to NASL and now they are doing it to OGN. If they did it twice they will do it for the third time the question is whos their next target? They are disgusting amateurs I just can believe how anyone nonbiased can be on their side.
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On August 26 2012 19:36 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:33 boxman22 wrote:On August 26 2012 19:32 ShadeR wrote:
Business as usual for GOM.
OGN gets fucked.
People still don't get it. You'd rather have GOM get fucked, business better than ever for OGN? what? did he explicitly say he wanted Gom to be the one fucked over instead? please let go of this "if you are not with us, then you have to be against us attitude"
I think that's the way it (possibly) is. The belief is that kespa can still not do gsl season 5 and it was an appeasement, just to keep osl running.
So yeah. Combine that kespa owned gom once before(in BW) with lots of hate for kespa with the secular opinion that eSF ex-Kespa players are doing this because kespa players want to play in season 4 and you have a situation where it's blatantly one way or the other. Especially because eSF didn't take the appeasement.
Besides, i reslly don't take any merit from a post that saysn"business as usual for gom. Ogn gets fucked. People still don't get it". Going against popular opinion has no merit without reasoning. Besides, gom (if you like to consider them as eSF) have never done anything like it before.
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Kespa, just stop the bullshit, you guys know, and everyone in the world knows that you just don't have the power anymore.
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On August 26 2012 19:48 Michaels wrote:
ESF are the bad guys here, you are blind and biased if you dont see it. You dont take a part in a tournament and pull out at the last minute to blackmail someone. They did it to NASL and now they are doing it to OGN. If they did it twice they will do it for the third time the question is whos their next target? They are disgusting amateurs I just can believe how anyone nonbiased can be on their side.
Thank God in my observation you are not BW fans, not having a T1 tag. Your opinion is valid now.
Oh wait, you side with KeSPA? That means you are in the minority. You must be wrong then, or at least not worth listening to.
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9071 Posts
On August 26 2012 19:46 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:45 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 19:42 achan1058 wrote:On August 26 2012 19:41 Bippzy wrote:
Interesting how public opinion slowly shifts, its as if everyone forgot about before eSF made the current move. Everyone was like "good, but they stilll shouldn't play till season 4 gsl has kespa players". They make this decision combined with ogns nice little PR announcement, and now gom is an asshole.
I would still applaud them for having the balls to do it. In this case, the ends justify the means, regardless of eSF backing out of a started tournament whereas osl never was in. Actually, nothing shifted. There's just a small vocal minority of people, probably BW fans, who have been making many comments. And you counter them with impeccable logic and reason? And what does being BW fans have anything to do with this? If they say the right things, they are still the correct side in this argument. But you have to cop out for the sake of discussion of course. I wasn't countering anything with that comment. It's just an observation. Most pro-KeSPA posts have a T1 tag on them.
I'm sorry for being on TL for 5 years and sticking with my favorite team way before there were any professional SC2 teams. My initial post refered to Jinro who said KeSPA are all in the wrong with this, which just I disagree with, especially after taking the time to read all the information on the matter.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51717 Posts
On August 26 2012 19:45 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 19:40 ImNightmare wrote:
???? Still no annoucement? Fuck this is good. Kespa is really thinking hard on its next move. Shall we macro up? Or do we counter attack its sunday. :/ And the deadline is tomorrow. It's getting tense.
nah, there is time, actually I'm kinda glad that there is some gap in the OSL schedule, so shit doesn't really hit the fan just yet.
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On August 26 2012 19:48 Michaels wrote:
ESF are the bad guys here, you are blind and biased if you dont see it. You dont take a part in a tournament and pull out at the last minute to blackmail someone. They did it to NASL and now they are doing it to OGN. If they did it twice they will do it for the third time the question is whos their next target? They are disgusting amateurs I just can believe how anyone nonbiased can be on their side.
First: sure we are biased! That is not always something bad.
Second: I understand that you think the move is bad. An you are right. Without context and looking at the history, it looks bad.
But we wait for 10 years now, that someone stand up against kespa politic: "WE, not our players deicide where they play".
To pull out in middle of a tournament is bad, for kespa and this makes it good for me!
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On August 26 2012 19:48 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:36 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 19:33 boxman22 wrote:On August 26 2012 19:32 ShadeR wrote:
Business as usual for GOM.
OGN gets fucked.
People still don't get it. You'd rather have GOM get fucked, business better than ever for OGN? what? did he explicitly say he wanted Gom to be the one fucked over instead? please let go of this "if you are not with us, then you have to be against us attitude" I think that's the way it (possibly) is. The belief is that kespa can still not do gsl season 5 and it was an appeasement, just to keep osl running. So yeah. Combine that kespa owned gom once before(in BW) with lots of hate for kespa with the secular opinion that eSF ex-Kespa players are doing this because kespa players want to play in season 4 and you have a situation where it's blatantly one way or the other. Especially because eSF didn't take the appeasement. Besides, i reslly don't take any merit from a post that saysn"business as usual for gom. Ogn gets fucked. People still don't get it". Going against popular opinion has no merit without reasoning. Besides, gom (if you like to consider them as eSF) have never done anything like it before.
They did with NASL, signed up then pulled out. A lot of their players still sign up for tournaments only to pull out later for another tournament. (Mvp, MC, HerO WCs => IEM, MLG). Why sign up in the first place if you're not going to finish it..
KeSPA doesn't want to do that. And so they didn't sign up for Code A prelims to start with.
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On August 26 2012 19:52 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:48 Michaels wrote:
ESF are the bad guys here, you are blind and biased if you dont see it. You dont take a part in a tournament and pull out at the last minute to blackmail someone. They did it to NASL and now they are doing it to OGN. If they did it twice they will do it for the third time the question is whos their next target? They are disgusting amateurs I just can believe how anyone nonbiased can be on their side. First: sure we are biased! That is not always something bad. Second: I understand that you think the move is bad. An you are right. Without context and looking at the history, it looks bad. But we wait for 10 years now, that someone stand up against kespa politic: "WE, not our players deicide where they play". To pull out in middle of a tournament is bad, for kespa and this makes it good for me!
Too bad this 'horrible' KeSPA politic has created the most spectacular Starcraft games we have ever seen, and the most impressive players came out of it. You're right, the moves eSF are pulling look awful without looking at context and history. They look even worse if you do consider it. But yes, if it's bad for KeSPA then it's good for viewers. Fuck logic.
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EPT
