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On August 26 2012 22:07 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:22 Tossi83 wrote:On August 26 2012 19:22 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 19:05 Tossi83 wrote:On August 26 2012 18:41 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 18:31 danbel1005 wrote:
Oh my, this is so Kespa ^^. They're not helping at all with anything at this point, they just want to do what they want, when they want, the way they want...such lame atitude wont do us any good, how is it possible that they still dont understand this.
I wonder what that "big project" is. Common Kespa stop being so childish, it seems like they are afraid or something. Yes they are afraid of losing. And ESF just forced KeSPA players to play so that they would win over BW legends for once when they still could. Such nice attitude of ESF players. (I'm being sarcastic of course. But really ESF has no reason to tell KeSPA which tournamnet to play. I suggest ESF focus on its business and let KeSPA take care of its.) I do wonder how did you conclude it. And not only that, I also wonder how can you have some facts so wrong. You really just made yourself stink like a troll. The problem isn't KeSPA players not participating. Problems are: - KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL even tho they made everyone think they would, fans thought KeSPA will participate, ESF thought KeSPA will participate, KeSPA players thought KeSPA will participate, GOM thought KeSPA will participate, Blizzard thought KeSPA will participate. - KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL even tho KeSPA players wished to participate. - KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL even tho they made an agreement earlier this year they would cooperate. - KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL and gave a lame excuse that almost noone believes. I don't think there would be any ruckus if KeSPA allowed their players to participate in GSL but then players would say "Sry but I want to train and get better before I enter it" or "I am too busy right now with other tournaments" or "I need to help my teammates prepare for their tournaments". Don't tell KeSPA or its players what to do. Where did I do that? I was merely explaining why people support ESF. It's none of your business. It is my business. I am SC2 fan and I want to have a say in how things are done. I spent my money on SC2 and thus I believe I have the right to influence it. And on top of all that I am a free man so I am the one who decide what is and what isn't my bussiness. For you to try to deny and hinder my right to do so it looks like you have no good arguments against what I have said and thus try to exclude me from discussion. And they are not slaves. If I remember well many people implied that KeSPA often treats it's players like slaves. They are staying in KeSPA because they want to do so. If they want to leave, the doors are wide open and so are ESF's arms. KeSPA and ESF have an agreement to not exchange its players between each other. And I will say one more thing, in business, what other parties thought is none of one party's concern. You are wrong here too. We have laws and organizantions that say how competing should and shouldn't be done between companies, protect customers and ensure overall fairness in bussiness. And we have all that for a good reason and that reason is that the bigger and stronger often use their strength without respect for fairness and rights of the smaller and weaker ones. So it's everyones involved concern, the market, customers and competition, how the bussiness is done by other parties and we, the people who support ESF in their decision, believe it should be same in esport. Unless KeSPA did make some solid promises or contract, GSL and ESF would have no rights to react when KeSPA acted against their wills. Thats just your opinion, and people supporting ESF and me as well have opposite one. Actually everyone who is free can react to anything they wish to react tho it remains to be judged if the reaction is appriopriate one and in our case most of people judged that reaction of ESF is justified. All they do right now are trying to exploit their power to force KeSPA to give in doing their ways. In the eyes of people supporting ESF all they do is trying to stop KeSPA from exploiting KeSPAs power and they also believe that ESF ways of doing things is the right and just one. Why those people think so? Answer to that one you have in my previous post. Let me tell you one things: KeSPA players are not slaves. SK is a very developed country and they have law there. What other implied means nothing, I have never read or heard anything coming from KeSPA players to mention any mistreatment from KeSPA. In fact they have done many good things for players, even the retired ones. Go figure. KeSPA's business is none of your business, period.
I make it my bussiness, period.
You can have opinion all the ways you want, it is your opinion and it may be wrong. You didn't buy anything from KeSPA as they just have stepped in SC2 recently (i don't know about SC:BW). KeSPA pays the players; therefore, they are KeSPA's employees. They don't need you teach them how to use their employees. Of course you can try anyways but don't be surprised when nobody gives you any attention. I meant there as a fact that you have no influence over how KeSPA treat the players or conduct its business.
I do have influence over how KeSPA treat the players or conduct its business. I can show my support of ESF who tries to force the change in ways KeSPA do it. Yes my influence alone is very small but if I connect it with the very small influence of other people like me it starts to be meaningfull. Thats how societies work, a lot of small efforts joins to create a huge effort.
So I just advice you save your breath. If you don't want to, fine go ahead. It's just that your standard or definition of what is right what is wrong is not the common standard of the world.
The amount of support ESF receive proves otherwise.
As you realize yourself I have my standard also. That's why I think ESF should just back off and let KeSPA does whatever the organization sees fit. If KeSPA makes mistake, it will bury itself.
That's exactly what is happening right now, KeSPA did mistake and is burying itself. And no I won't let KeSPA do as it sees fit in any small way I can.
KeSPA didn't do anything wrong, by law.
But it did something wrong by common sense of many SC fans and members of ESF and GOM.
But GOM and ESF assumed everything and then they are pissed because they assumed the wrong thing.
You seem to forget that KeSPA players and SC fans and Blizzard also assumed same thing.
And they tried to use their power and position (participating in OSL after KeSPA kindly allowed them to) to threaten KeSPA. I think it's exactly unfair conduct of business and extremely harmful one also.
Thats again your opinion that stands in opposition to opinion of many more SC fan and players.
You can't react to a very normal action and decision of one party by blackmailing or undermining that party's business.
I and many more SC fans and players don't consider the action and decision that KeSPA took normal.
It's also extremely amateurish and unduly. Unfortunately for ESF but they have nothing to force on KeSPA, not even a promise. Their reaction, on the other hand, are undeniable. And their supporters, like you, are also assuming that they will bring something good to the scene by doing some unreasonably bad things but the fact is, you don't know yet.
We are trying to stop something bad: KeSPA giving us false hope of cooperation between them and GOM and ESF and Blizzard
You are assuming, like GOM and ESF did, and you want KeSPA to be the victim of your assumption to see if you are correct or not. If you are correct, you still get there by doing something bad. If you are incorrect, well then KeSPA suffered for nothing.
KeSPA can stop suffering right here and now by allowing their teams to participate in GSL S4.
But as you said, you're a ESF's supporter so I can't change your mind anyways.
And here you are wrong once again. All you have to do is to prove that the things I mentioned before are good:
- KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL even tho they made everyone think they would, fans thought KeSPA will participate, ESF thought KeSPA will participate, KeSPA players thought KeSPA will participate, GOM thought KeSPA will participate, Blizzard thought KeSPA will participate.
- KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL even tho KeSPA players wished to participate.
- KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL even tho they made an agreement earlier this year they would cooperate.
- KeSPA forbid every KeSPA player to participate in GSL and gave a lame excuse that almost noone believes.
And I dare you to do so.
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Its entirely possible that Kespa feels their players are just too damn busy. So its entirely okay if they are actually just too busy.
KeSPA players will be presented at SC2 Proleague, OSL, WCG Korean representative qualifiers, WCS and MLG online matches, MLG final invitational. Their regular week schedule will be 4 days for Proleague, 2 days for OSL, 2days for MLG cross matches.
Therefore, KeSPA decided not to join GSL Season 4 because of their busy schedule.
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On August 26 2012 23:07 TBone- wrote:Its entirely possible that Kespa feels their players are just too damn busy. So its entirely okay if they are actually just too busy. Show nested quote +
KeSPA players will be presented at SC2 Proleague, OSL, WCG Korean representative qualifiers, WCS and MLG online matches, MLG final invitational. Their regular week schedule will be 4 days for Proleague, 2 days for OSL, 2days for MLG cross matches.
Therefore, KeSPA decided not to join GSL Season 4 because of their busy schedule.
I don't remember anyone claiming that it isn't true for some players thus i said previously:
I don't think there would be any ruckus if KeSPA allowed their players to participate in GSL but then players would say "Sry but I want to train and get better before I enter it" or "I am too busy right now with other tournaments" or "I need to help my teammates prepare for their tournaments".
And also we dont want KeSPA to force their players to participate. We want KeSPA to not disallow them to participate so those who are not busy can participate.
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On August 26 2012 23:07 TBone- wrote:Its entirely possible that Kespa feels their players are just too damn busy. So its entirely okay if they are actually just too busy. Show nested quote +
KeSPA players will be presented at SC2 Proleague, OSL, WCG Korean representative qualifiers, WCS and MLG online matches, MLG final invitational. Their regular week schedule will be 4 days for Proleague, 2 days for OSL, 2days for MLG cross matches.
Therefore, KeSPA decided not to join GSL Season 4 because of their busy schedule.
I agree it'd be entirely okay if they really were busy. It's just that when you look at who's participating in the leagues they listed it seems like they were purposely being misleading. Only 8 players have OSL, 4 teams are out of Proleague completely, 3 of their players are left in WCS whenever it starts the Asia matches, not very many in WCG either and MLG's invitationals don't happen that often. I don't really know what MLG cross matches involve but it can't take up every single player at the same time so there are bound to be people free. It just seems like they listed off a bunch of events in which there are a few games per player each week and honestly that's just not a lot.
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@Tossi83 so that I don't have to quote all of yours:
- What everyone thought doesn't matter. Bring out any firm promise or better yet contract that stipulates KeSPA's responsibilities that they violated. What you thought is good for you, no surprise here. But KeSPA holds no responsibility for that. And KeSPA players never thought they would attend. They are always say that it's up to the teams' schedule, and KeSPA is the union of the teams.
- They wanted to participate or not doesn't matter. They are employees and the teams decide where they play. Don't agree? Follow Effort's example and quit. Just don't even think of coming back. And that's normal conduct of every business and sport in the world. Go figure.
- They will cooperate. They will participate in GSL 5. The agreement was open for any interpretation. KeSPA will cooperate before the year end and after its players fully transited. It's good enough. If your interpretation is different, well too bad. But you have no right or power to force it on anyone. And it's nothing bad from KeSPA if it has different opinion from yours.
- The reasons were not lame or anything. I explain one way of understanding the reasons from KeSPA's PoV which makes perfect sense imo. Even if you don't think it is, there is only one thing could be considered bad in this world- illegal activity. Other than that, each of his own. I personally am fine with KeSPA's explanation. You aren't? Too bad again...for you.
Each of the above points is bad because you think so? And you want me to prove or explain what? If you think so then just live with it, I can't change that. But it is fine in normal world. Do you know that denying a invitation is not a crime? Do you know that blackmail and intentional sabotage are?
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On August 26 2012 19:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:07 TheAmazombie wrote:
I am not saying that I agree that they weren't busy, but I still disagree with the lack of player's rights in the matter. I am tired of people talking about how KeSPA is fine to control their players because they give some of them money, room, board, and food. That sounds a lot like indentured servitude in some cases...which we as Westerners generally find abhorrent. I have no idea what planet "you Westerners" are from, but on pretty much the entirety of the planet I live in, people don't normally get to do whatever they want during work hours. They don't get to choose how they spend the time they're being paid to work. It's not "fine" for the team to manage their players' time, it's perfectly normal and reasonable. Can a developer at Microsoft stop working on his assigned duties and start programming a game he thought of during the lunch break and keep his job? Can a football player disappear in the middle of the season because he feels like playing in Zimbabwe for a few months is a good idea and keep his job? Likewise, SKT's player's JOB is training for Proleague and the team's goal is winning Proleague. If the team staff decides there's no time to do anything else, then they're not going to do anything else, period. It's mind boggling that people are even questioning something as natural as that, it's just... crazy. Just because SC2 teams you're used to are in the stone age in terms of hierarchy, structure and organization (to the point that they're hardly fit to even be called "teams", they're sponsored clans at best), doesn't justify demanding that everyone should stoop down to the level that Starcraft scene in Korea has outgrown a decade ago.
I agree with this post. Those teams are paying their players salaries and providing them with housing and food as the employers. The employers decide what the job description is and will set schedules according to what they think will maximize the team's performance and maintain its reputation. Seems rather standard for almost every profession.
It's possible that there was a political agenda behind deciding not to participate in the upcoming GSL4, but they never committed to playing in GSL4 anyway either from what I've read. Their reason is actually not far-fetched as some people are making it out to be especially if you consider that they are not going to come out and say "we have our reputation to hold". Their players are still practicing two different games, and while some of the Kespa players have shown that they have improved considerably of late, they realize that the Code A qualifiers are brutal and that there is a big risk for these players to get knocked out by some random unknown Code B players. That really won't bode well for their "elite" reputation and aura.
Like I said already, I would not rule out political motives, but I wouldn't immediately jump to it and start flaming either at this point.
Time set aside for practice is highly important. It's not reasonable to say "Oh, you have that Friday 2-6PM slot allocated to practice. You can just fit in your new tournament matches during then." Most players will tell you that their performance drops when they have to play in many different tournaments either simultaneously or in quick successions because they don't have enough time to practice and prepare.
I live in the "Western world", but when I start working for a salary in a couple of years, my employers are going to make me work for 80-100 hours per week. They will decide when I'll work and what I'll be doing during those times. Sure, I'll be complaining about my work hours, but I won't be calling it "indentured servitude" or "I as a Westerner find this abhorrent".
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On August 27 2012 01:48 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:13 Talin wrote:On August 26 2012 14:07 TheAmazombie wrote:
I am not saying that I agree that they weren't busy, but I still disagree with the lack of player's rights in the matter. I am tired of people talking about how KeSPA is fine to control their players because they give some of them money, room, board, and food. That sounds a lot like indentured servitude in some cases...which we as Westerners generally find abhorrent. I have no idea what planet "you Westerners" are from, but on pretty much the entirety of the planet I live in, people don't normally get to do whatever they want during work hours. They don't get to choose how they spend the time they're being paid to work. It's not "fine" for the team to manage their players' time, it's perfectly normal and reasonable. Can a developer at Microsoft stop working on his assigned duties and start programming a game he thought of during the lunch break and keep his job? Can a football player disappear in the middle of the season because he feels like playing in Zimbabwe for a few months is a good idea and keep his job? Likewise, SKT's player's JOB is training for Proleague and the team's goal is winning Proleague. If the team staff decides there's no time to do anything else, then they're not going to do anything else, period. It's mind boggling that people are even questioning something as natural as that, it's just... crazy. Just because SC2 teams you're used to are in the stone age in terms of hierarchy, structure and organization (to the point that they're hardly fit to even be called "teams", they're sponsored clans at best), doesn't justify demanding that everyone should stoop down to the level that Starcraft scene in Korea has outgrown a decade ago. I agree with this post. Those teams are paying their players salaries and providing them with housing and food as the employers. The employers decide what the job description is and will set schedules according to what they think will maximize the team's performance and maintain its reputation. Seems rather standard for almost every profession. It's possible that there was a political agenda behind deciding not to participate in the upcoming GSL4, but they never committed to playing in GSL4 anyway either from what I've read. Their reason is actually not far-fetched as some people are making it out to be especially if you consider that they are not going to come out and say "we have our reputation to hold". Their players are still practicing two different games, and while some of the Kespa players have shown that they have improved considerably of late, they realize that the Code A qualifiers are brutal and that there is a big risk for these players to get knocked out by some random unknown Code B players. That really won't bode well for their "elite" reputation and aura. Like I said already, I would not rule out political motives, but I wouldn't immediately jump to it and start flaming either at this point. Time set aside for practice is highly important. It's not reasonable to say "Oh, you have that Friday 2-6PM slot allocated to practice. You can just fit in your new tournament matches during then." Most players will tell you that their performance drops when they have to play in many different tournaments either simultaneously or in quick successions because they don't have enough time to practice and prepare. I live in the "Western world", but when I start working for a salary in a couple of years, my employers are going to make me work for 80-100 hours per week. They will decide when I'll work and what I'll be doing during those times. Sure, I'll be complaining about my work hours, but I won't be calling it "indentured servitude" or "I as a Westerner find this abhorrent".
I'm certain, however, that the monetary benefit you're procuring is relatively significant (for the work you do and compared to the time you put into it).
I think there was a discussion over South Korean labour laws and the minimum working salary that was discussed far earlier in this thread. From what I remember of it, SK law requires that contracts are really only permissible once someone was 16 or older, with a minimum of $400 per month (or whatever it is - I remember it being significantly higher than what the chaebol's pay out). Under Kespa, B-Teamers/practice partners don't earn any money. A-teamers make some, but no where near the minimum wage. Only players on the level of Flash/Jaedong/etc. earn sizable incomes. It's not work - at least it's not presented as work, because of child labour laws.
However, this entire discussion is merely semantics and meaningless. At the end of the day, we should collectively get off of the moral high horse and let the ESF and Kespa settle their dispute. u_u
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On August 26 2012 23:28 chisuri wrote:
@Tossi83 so that I don't have to quote all of yours:
- What everyone thought doesn't matter. Bring out any firm promise or better yet contract that stipulates KeSPA's responsibilities that they violated. What you thought is good for you, no surprise here. But KeSPA holds no responsibility for that. And KeSPA players never thought they would attend. They are always say that it's up to the teams' schedule, and KeSPA is the union of the teams.
- They wanted to participate or not doesn't matter. They are employees and the teams decide where they play. Don't agree? Follow Effort's example and quit. Just don't even think of coming back. And that's normal conduct of every business and sport in the world. Go figure.
- They will cooperate. They will participate in GSL 5. The agreement was open for any interpretation. KeSPA will cooperate before the year end and after its players fully transited. It's good enough. If your interpretation is different, well too bad. But you have no right or power to force it on anyone. And it's nothing bad from KeSPA if it has different opinion from yours.
- The reasons were not lame or anything. I explain one way of understanding the reasons from KeSPA's PoV which makes perfect sense imo. Even if you don't think it is, there is only one thing could be considered bad in this world- illegal activity. Other than that, each of his own. I personally am fine with KeSPA's explanation. You aren't? Too bad again...for you.
Each of the above points is bad because you think so? And you want me to prove or explain what? If you think so then just live with it, I can't change that. But it is fine in normal world. Do you know that denying a invitation is not a crime? Do you know that blackmail and intentional sabotage are?
Okay, KeSPA is fine, I don't care if they don't want to participate in GSL 4 + as they suggested they would. I also think eSF is fine for not allowing their players to play as it goes against their principles of good faith that led them to allow players into OSL. IT's not blackmail so much as eSF's right to do the same thing to preserve their business that KesPA is doing to them
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On August 27 2012 02:36 Falconblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 23:28 chisuri wrote:
@Tossi83 so that I don't have to quote all of yours:
- What everyone thought doesn't matter. Bring out any firm promise or better yet contract that stipulates KeSPA's responsibilities that they violated. What you thought is good for you, no surprise here. But KeSPA holds no responsibility for that. And KeSPA players never thought they would attend. They are always say that it's up to the teams' schedule, and KeSPA is the union of the teams.
- They wanted to participate or not doesn't matter. They are employees and the teams decide where they play. Don't agree? Follow Effort's example and quit. Just don't even think of coming back. And that's normal conduct of every business and sport in the world. Go figure.
- They will cooperate. They will participate in GSL 5. The agreement was open for any interpretation. KeSPA will cooperate before the year end and after its players fully transited. It's good enough. If your interpretation is different, well too bad. But you have no right or power to force it on anyone. And it's nothing bad from KeSPA if it has different opinion from yours.
- The reasons were not lame or anything. I explain one way of understanding the reasons from KeSPA's PoV which makes perfect sense imo. Even if you don't think it is, there is only one thing could be considered bad in this world- illegal activity. Other than that, each of his own. I personally am fine with KeSPA's explanation. You aren't? Too bad again...for you.
Each of the above points is bad because you think so? And you want me to prove or explain what? If you think so then just live with it, I can't change that. But it is fine in normal world. Do you know that denying a invitation is not a crime? Do you know that blackmail and intentional sabotage are? Okay, KeSPA is fine, I don't care if they don't want to participate in GSL 4 + as they suggested they would. I also think eSF is fine for not allowing their players to play as it goes against their principles of good faith that led them to allow players into OSL. IT's not blackmail so much as eSF's right to do the same thing to preserve their business that KesPA is doing to them
It'd be perfectly fine if eSF said "we won't play in the NEXT OSL". What makes it fucking stupid, pathetic, and horrible both for the orgs and the viewers is that they are pulling out in the MIDDLE OF AN ONGOING TOURNAMENT. Everything else is irrelevant, really.
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On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing.
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On August 27 2012 02:45 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 02:36 Falconblade wrote:On August 26 2012 23:28 chisuri wrote:
@Tossi83 so that I don't have to quote all of yours:
- What everyone thought doesn't matter. Bring out any firm promise or better yet contract that stipulates KeSPA's responsibilities that they violated. What you thought is good for you, no surprise here. But KeSPA holds no responsibility for that. And KeSPA players never thought they would attend. They are always say that it's up to the teams' schedule, and KeSPA is the union of the teams.
- They wanted to participate or not doesn't matter. They are employees and the teams decide where they play. Don't agree? Follow Effort's example and quit. Just don't even think of coming back. And that's normal conduct of every business and sport in the world. Go figure.
- They will cooperate. They will participate in GSL 5. The agreement was open for any interpretation. KeSPA will cooperate before the year end and after its players fully transited. It's good enough. If your interpretation is different, well too bad. But you have no right or power to force it on anyone. And it's nothing bad from KeSPA if it has different opinion from yours.
- The reasons were not lame or anything. I explain one way of understanding the reasons from KeSPA's PoV which makes perfect sense imo. Even if you don't think it is, there is only one thing could be considered bad in this world- illegal activity. Other than that, each of his own. I personally am fine with KeSPA's explanation. You aren't? Too bad again...for you.
Each of the above points is bad because you think so? And you want me to prove or explain what? If you think so then just live with it, I can't change that. But it is fine in normal world. Do you know that denying a invitation is not a crime? Do you know that blackmail and intentional sabotage are? Okay, KeSPA is fine, I don't care if they don't want to participate in GSL 4 + as they suggested they would. I also think eSF is fine for not allowing their players to play as it goes against their principles of good faith that led them to allow players into OSL. IT's not blackmail so much as eSF's right to do the same thing to preserve their business that KesPA is doing to them It'd be perfectly fine if eSF said "we won't play in the NEXT OSL". What makes it fucking stupid, pathetic, and horrible both for the orgs and the viewers is that they are pulling out in the MIDDLE OF AN ONGOING TOURNAMENT. Everything else is irrelevant, really.
eSF has a history of pulling players in the middle of the tournament...
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On August 27 2012 02:46 Azuzu wrote:
On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing.
Really its more about GOM vs KeSpa Round 2 (KeSpa leads 1-0), but since ESF is so dependent on the GSL where their players play, GOM and ESF are going to try and fight KeSpa. All that matters now is what the korean fans want to do about it, and to us foreigners, the only thing we can do is sit back, relax, and watch the sparks fly.
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On August 27 2012 03:01 LanTAs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 02:46 Azuzu wrote:
On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing. Really its more about GOM vs KeSpa Round 2 (KeSpa leads 1-0), but since ESF is so dependent on the GSL where their players play, GOM and ESF are going to try and fight KeSpa. All that matters now is what the korean fans want to do about it, and to us foreigners, the only thing we can do is sit back, relax, and watch the sparks fly.
GOM is so pathetic. Bribing eSF on the side to boycott KeSPA events.
I seriously hope we get a repeat of GOMTV classic all over again and those guys go out of business.
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On August 27 2012 03:24 BgSBendeR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:01 LanTAs wrote:On August 27 2012 02:46 Azuzu wrote:
On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing. Really its more about GOM vs KeSpa Round 2 (KeSpa leads 1-0), but since ESF is so dependent on the GSL where their players play, GOM and ESF are going to try and fight KeSpa. All that matters now is what the korean fans want to do about it, and to us foreigners, the only thing we can do is sit back, relax, and watch the sparks fly. GOM is so pathetic. Bribing eSF on the side to boycott KeSPA events. I seriously hope we get a repeat of GOMTV classic all over again and those guys go out of business.
Is there any evidence at all of gom bribing esf? And why on earth would you want a broadcasting company to go out of business?
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On August 27 2012 03:40 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:34 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 03:24 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 27 2012 03:01 LanTAs wrote:On August 27 2012 02:46 Azuzu wrote:
On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing. Really its more about GOM vs KeSpa Round 2 (KeSpa leads 1-0), but since ESF is so dependent on the GSL where their players play, GOM and ESF are going to try and fight KeSpa. All that matters now is what the korean fans want to do about it, and to us foreigners, the only thing we can do is sit back, relax, and watch the sparks fly. GOM is so pathetic. Bribing eSF on the side to boycott KeSPA events. I seriously hope we get a repeat of GOMTV classic all over again and those guys go out of business. Is there any evidence at all of gom bribing esf? And why on earth would you want a broadcasting company to go out of business? No, of course not, he's just trolling.
Not trolling. Do you honestly believe GOM has nothing to do with eSF pulling out of OSL...?
Seriously.
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On August 27 2012 03:34 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:24 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 27 2012 03:01 LanTAs wrote:On August 27 2012 02:46 Azuzu wrote:
On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing. Really its more about GOM vs KeSpa Round 2 (KeSpa leads 1-0), but since ESF is so dependent on the GSL where their players play, GOM and ESF are going to try and fight KeSpa. All that matters now is what the korean fans want to do about it, and to us foreigners, the only thing we can do is sit back, relax, and watch the sparks fly. GOM is so pathetic. Bribing eSF on the side to boycott KeSPA events. I seriously hope we get a repeat of GOMTV classic all over again and those guys go out of business. Is there any evidence at all of gom bribing esf? And why on earth would you want a broadcasting company to go out of business?
GOM doesn't need to bribe ESF. The attempt to kill GOM is also an attempt to kill the ESF teams. Once GSL dies, what do those teams have left? They have no publicity, etc. and will fold. Kespa is trying to retain a monopoly control (in Korea at least) over professional players. The only way you play is for them (so they can keep player salaries low) and all the income comes to them. They might find it beneficial to allow one or two of the ESF teams into Kespa (say IM, since it has a big sponsor now), but only if they agree to act in coordination with the monopoly.
Of course, this is all standard in sports. The NBA is a league run by the team owners who all forbid their players from playing in any other league, and no one would expect it to go any other way. Kespa wants to be like that, and the only way they get there is to kill the competition.
As a business matter, the only realistic alternative is a world governing body with separate team owners and event hosts all playing by some basic rules. But the only way that happens is if Blizzard forces it or if none of the independent teams/tournaments think they have enough of the fans/players to make a play for monopoly power.
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On August 27 2012 03:43 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:34 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 03:24 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 27 2012 03:01 LanTAs wrote:On August 27 2012 02:46 Azuzu wrote:
On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing. Really its more about GOM vs KeSpa Round 2 (KeSpa leads 1-0), but since ESF is so dependent on the GSL where their players play, GOM and ESF are going to try and fight KeSpa. All that matters now is what the korean fans want to do about it, and to us foreigners, the only thing we can do is sit back, relax, and watch the sparks fly. GOM is so pathetic. Bribing eSF on the side to boycott KeSPA events. I seriously hope we get a repeat of GOMTV classic all over again and those guys go out of business. Is there any evidence at all of gom bribing esf? And why on earth would you want a broadcasting company to go out of business? GOM doesn't need to bribe ESF. The attempt to kill GOM is also an attempt to kill the ESF teams. Once GSL dies, what do those teams have left? They have no publicity, etc. and will fold. Kespa is trying to retain a monopoly control (in Korea at least) over professional players. The only way you play is for them (so they can keep player salaries low) and all the income comes to them. They might find it beneficial to allow one or two of the ESF teams into Kespa (say IM, since it has a big sponsor now), but only if they agree to act in coordination with the monopoly. Of course, this is all standard in sports. The NBA is a league run by the team owners who all forbid their players from playing in any other league, and no one would expect it to go any other way. Kespa wants to be like that, and the only way they get there is to kill the competition. As a business matter, the only realistic alternative is a world governing body with separate team owners and event hosts all playing by some basic rules. But the only way that happens is if Blizzard forces it or if none of the independent teams/tournaments think they have enough of the fans/players to make a play for monopoly power.
In other words gom didn't bribe esf. Gotcha.
Also, am I wrong in saying that Gom is a part of CJ group?
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On August 27 2012 03:49 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:42 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 27 2012 03:40 monkybone wrote:On August 27 2012 03:34 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 03:24 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 27 2012 03:01 LanTAs wrote:On August 27 2012 02:46 Azuzu wrote:
On the bright side... ESF v KESPA grudge matches are going to be amazing. Really its more about GOM vs KeSpa Round 2 (KeSpa leads 1-0), but since ESF is so dependent on the GSL where their players play, GOM and ESF are going to try and fight KeSpa. All that matters now is what the korean fans want to do about it, and to us foreigners, the only thing we can do is sit back, relax, and watch the sparks fly. GOM is so pathetic. Bribing eSF on the side to boycott KeSPA events. I seriously hope we get a repeat of GOMTV classic all over again and those guys go out of business. Is there any evidence at all of gom bribing esf? And why on earth would you want a broadcasting company to go out of business? No, of course not, he's just trolling. Not trolling. Do you honestly believe GOM has nothing to do with eSF pulling out of OSL...? Seriously. ESF has everything to lose with Gom being forced out by Kespa.
If we are to believe that players under esf are making less money then players under kespa, then what do they have to lose? At the moment they are still relevant at the highest level of competition, and as fast as the kespa players improved in the wcs, I find it hard to believe that the tip top sc2 players wont be relevant for a little bit longer.
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EPT
