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On August 21 2012 20:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:56 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:13 Herect wrote:On August 21 2012 14:58 avilo wrote:Just food for thought. Tanks nerfed because of 1 map (steppes of war). Thors nerfed immediately after 1 bo5 (thorzain vs MC). Ghost snipe nerfed after a few series of MVP and others (course of 3-4 weeks only after people started to use ghosts). Blue flame nerfed after one tournament weekend of use.Now, fast forward to over the last 5-6 months of Zerg/Protoss dominance and Terran struggling... They say they acknowledge finally there may be an issue TvZ and will work on it. After 1 tournament weekend of IEM, David Kim believes that Zergs are struggling (3/4 finalists were Zerg), majority of previous tournies also Z/P heavy with the exception of taeja).  Something is very wrong. Tweaks on the game at that time doesn't have the same impact as today. And they pretty much nerfed some specifics builds (or the fact that one unit counter all T3 of Zerg). The Queen change was good because o two things: - Terran was claiming complete map control too easy with just one opening, denying creep spread, killing drones sometimes. It was strangely balanced, but it was so boring and counter-intutitive. Where's is the risk of this opening? It is so rewarding, but you can sitll tech, still expand, there were no hold back. - Fixed ZvZ increasing defenders advantage. Now, a more defensive oriented Zerg can fight to reach midgame, instead of just dying to baneling all-ins. Now you finally have to learn to play late game TvZ instead fo just relying on one unit or heavy advantage gained by a easier midgame. Mind explaining to me what risks there is to the 6 queen opener? It seems kinda counter-intuitive to have an opener that makes you safe vs 99% of early game rushes, gets you a retarded econ and allows you to tech? And there was a hold and quite easy counter to helion expand, its called roaches. Quite alot of zergs actually used them, but sadly its the views of most zergs that you're completely all in if you cant get 3 bases and 70 drones by 8 mins without taking risks What was the risk of the reactor hellion build pre-queen buff, if any? That build seemed beyond awesome, with little or no risk.
roach/bling all-ins could be very dangerous, depending on how you followed up the hellions
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On August 21 2012 20:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:56 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:13 Herect wrote:On August 21 2012 14:58 avilo wrote:Just food for thought. Tanks nerfed because of 1 map (steppes of war). Thors nerfed immediately after 1 bo5 (thorzain vs MC). Ghost snipe nerfed after a few series of MVP and others (course of 3-4 weeks only after people started to use ghosts). Blue flame nerfed after one tournament weekend of use.Now, fast forward to over the last 5-6 months of Zerg/Protoss dominance and Terran struggling... They say they acknowledge finally there may be an issue TvZ and will work on it. After 1 tournament weekend of IEM, David Kim believes that Zergs are struggling (3/4 finalists were Zerg), majority of previous tournies also Z/P heavy with the exception of taeja). Something is very wrong. Tweaks on the game at that time doesn't have the same impact as today. And they pretty much nerfed some specifics builds (or the fact that one unit counter all T3 of Zerg). The Queen change was good because o two things: - Terran was claiming complete map control too easy with just one opening, denying creep spread, killing drones sometimes. It was strangely balanced, but it was so boring and counter-intutitive. Where's is the risk of this opening? It is so rewarding, but you can sitll tech, still expand, there were no hold back. - Fixed ZvZ increasing defenders advantage. Now, a more defensive oriented Zerg can fight to reach midgame, instead of just dying to baneling all-ins. Now you finally have to learn to play late game TvZ instead fo just relying on one unit or heavy advantage gained by a easier midgame. Mind explaining to me what risks there is to the 6 queen opener? It seems kinda counter-intuitive to have an opener that makes you safe vs 99% of early game rushes, gets you a retarded econ and allows you to tech? And there was a hold and quite easy counter to helion expand, its called roaches. Quite alot of zergs actually used them, but sadly its the views of most zergs that you're completely all in if you cant get 3 bases and 70 drones by 8 mins without taking risks What was the risk of the reactor hellion build pre-queen buff, if any? That build seemed beyond awesome, with little or no risk.
Where i my post did i say there were many risks going reactor helion? Seems like some culprit must have hacked me and deleted that passage! I mere wrote that because i think its quite funny seing a zerg saying there's not risk bla bla bla to reactor helion, when currently all zergs are going 6 queen thats easy to pull off and requires no micro at all, and most of all is completely risk free
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On August 21 2012 15:08 avilo wrote:It would be interesting to know the exact thought process/reasoning behind the recent interview statements is all i'm saying  considering a majority of the community would disagree with the assessment that "Zerg is struggling."
you've decided to play a new game. new games are volatile. if you want more stability pick an older game. some of these older games have imbalances that are well known and tightly quantified. by old i mean 50 years old or more
if your goal is to play games professionally and you believe Blizzard and/or David Kim are incompetent and/or dishonest then pick a different game. any other choice would be career suicide. poker, curling, backgammon and chess are a few older games that can be played professionally.
in order for you to speak for "a majority of the community" i gather you are at minimum bilingual? you speak both korean and english... maybe cantonese and russian too?
every one not immersed in 4+ hours per day of SC2 game play believes David Kim and Blizzard have only one motive.
a 1/3 , 1/3, 1/3 winning ratio split between each of the races.
do you think David Kim is being less than honest and wants either Zerg or Protoss to dominate the game?
Forget about special guest appearances on "State Of The Inside Game" or whatever these shows are that JPWheat runs or whatever their names are...
Get on the Alex Jones show and state your case that David Kim is actually part of the nWo or Illuminati or wants to secretly implant silver fillings in our teeth so we all end up dumb.
if David Kim were either incompetent or had any kind of alterior motive other than balanced winning ratios between races then every Blizzard employee (who feeds their children with the money they make from Blizzard) would want him fired instantly.
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On August 21 2012 20:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
if your goal is to play games professionally and you believe Blizzard and/or David Kim are incompetent
Personally I think they ARE incompetent, because it should be apparent from the get go that a unit with a range of "much longer than anything else" is going to be either terribly OP (if it deals too much damage) or not worth getting (if it deals pitiful damage, is slow as a snail or frail as a 500 year old corpse). There is no chance to balance a unit with such a big difference between "yay" or "eww" simply due to the influence of maps on the gameplay. On one map it might be ok and totally IMBA on the next and thats why the Tempest is really really REALLY bad in its core idea. If they nerf the range to something around 12-14 they will just have a "bad Carrier without Interceptors" or something similar to a BC and thats bad game design.
[EDIT: Siege Tanks got balanced for Steppes of War and right now they are a bit weak on the larger maps, because you either have all of your tanks with you OR you will be making a bad trade in resources against most opposing armies.]
Having a unit which enabled Protoss to cloak surrounding units was ok in BW due to the ever present Overlords who all could detect them and the "no use for anything else" Comsat with sufficient energy. In SC2 those two defenses are not there anymore OR cost resources to get OR share their energy with another skill which uses most of it as a core part in Terran economy. Thus the Oracle has yet another probably OP ability.
The mothership core can become a very long range cannon OR it can save the Protoss expedition corps very early in the game from total destruction. Both of these abilities are terribly broken, because they make it impossible for Protoss to get rushed early (well once you have the MS core and sufficient energy). You also only need one Sentry to block your ramp indefinetely since the MS core can refill that energy bar fast; yet another really terrible idea which only looks good on paper.
So I think some doubts as to the "unit design skill" of Blizzard is really in order, but then they seem to be testing the stuff on their tiny maps again ... The point is that the core design of the units and their abilities are sooo terrible and the abilities cant be balanced by tweaking some numbers ...
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On August 21 2012 20:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 15:08 avilo wrote:It would be interesting to know the exact thought process/reasoning behind the recent interview statements is all i'm saying considering a majority of the community would disagree with the assessment that "Zerg is struggling." you've decided to play a new game. new games are volatile. if you want more stability pick an older game. some of these older games have imbalances that are well known and tightly quantified. by old i mean 50 years old or more if your goal is to play games professionally and you believe Blizzard and/or David Kim are incompetent and/or dishonest then pick a different game. any other choice would be career suicide. poker, curling, backgammon and chess are a few older games that can be played professionally. in order for you to speak for "a majority of the community" i gather you are at minimum bilingual? you speak both korean and english... maybe cantonese and russian too? every one not immersed in 4+ hours per day of SC2 game play believes David Kim and Blizzard have only one motive. a 1/3 , 1/3, 1/3 winning ratio split between each of the races. do you think David Kim is being less than honest and wants either Zerg or Protoss to dominate the game? Forget about special guest appearances on "State Of The Inside Game" or whatever these shows are that JPWheat runs or whatever their names are... Get on the Alex Jones show and state your case that David Kim is actually part of the nWo or Illuminati or wants to secretly implant silver fillings in our teeth so we all end up dumb. if David Kim were either incompetent or had any kind of alterior motive other than balanced winning ratios between races then every Blizzard employee (who feeds their children with the money they make from Blizzard) would want him fired instantly.
I see what you are trying to do with the Illuminati, conspiracy theories are always on the verge of the reasonable and person who spreads them often times looks like a lunatic, but you can still go middle of the road and say that, since Starcraft 2 is much more popular/played on the international scene than BW was, Blizzard maybe wants a race that will be easier to play so that foreigners can have their heroes that can stand up to Koreans. I mean, we already have Stephano, just look how many viewers he is pulling when he streams.
Protoss was never really that strong when we look at overall win rates, terran if buffed would result in guys like Mvp having a field day and zerg basically has huge potential because it is very focused on heavy macro play and it gets exponentially stronger the more bases you have.
I'm not saying there is a certain ulterior motive and David Kim sure isn't a lizard, but international market is way bigger than Korean market and people do like to see foreigners win.
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On August 22 2012 00:31 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 21 2012 15:08 avilo wrote:It would be interesting to know the exact thought process/reasoning behind the recent interview statements is all i'm saying considering a majority of the community would disagree with the assessment that "Zerg is struggling." you've decided to play a new game. new games are volatile. if you want more stability pick an older game. some of these older games have imbalances that are well known and tightly quantified. by old i mean 50 years old or more if your goal is to play games professionally and you believe Blizzard and/or David Kim are incompetent and/or dishonest then pick a different game. any other choice would be career suicide. poker, curling, backgammon and chess are a few older games that can be played professionally. in order for you to speak for "a majority of the community" i gather you are at minimum bilingual? you speak both korean and english... maybe cantonese and russian too? every one not immersed in 4+ hours per day of SC2 game play believes David Kim and Blizzard have only one motive. a 1/3 , 1/3, 1/3 winning ratio split between each of the races. do you think David Kim is being less than honest and wants either Zerg or Protoss to dominate the game? Forget about special guest appearances on "State Of The Inside Game" or whatever these shows are that JPWheat runs or whatever their names are... Get on the Alex Jones show and state your case that David Kim is actually part of the nWo or Illuminati or wants to secretly implant silver fillings in our teeth so we all end up dumb. if David Kim were either incompetent or had any kind of alterior motive other than balanced winning ratios between races then every Blizzard employee (who feeds their children with the money they make from Blizzard) would want him fired instantly. I see what you are trying to do with the Illuminati, conspiracy theories are always on the verge of the reasonable and person who spreads them often times looks like a lunatic, but you can still go middle of the road and say that, since Starcraft 2 is much more popular/played on the international scene than BW was, Blizzard maybe wants a race that will be easier to play so that foreigners can have their heroes that can stand up to Koreans. I mean, we already have Stephano, just look how many viewers he is pulling when he streams. Protoss was never really that strong when we look at overall win rates, terran if buffed would result in guys like Mvp having a field day and zerg basically has huge potential because it is very focused on heavy macro play and it gets exponentially stronger the more bases you have. I'm not saying there is a certain ulterior motive and David Kim sure isn't a lizard, but international market is way bigger than Korean market and people do like to see foreigners win.
I have to disagree with you on the conspiracy theory, because there are so many units in HotS that are totally unbalanceable that the game becomes unplayable. The units which can be balanced and are fair (Battle Hellion and that new mech unit which I forgot the name of) will be balanced to be fair during the beta. The mothership core with the three basic abilities does create a totally new meta for the early game and therefore isnt one of those balanceable units. It seems to be one of those non-optional things you have to get as a Protoss ... like Warp Gate research. I wish they hadnt come up with such a stupid "must have" design again and instead had given alternatives for each race instead.
My vote clearly goes to the "Blizzard designers are incompetent" pile and not the "they have an ulterior motive" one.
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If you liked our interview with David Kim and Kaeo Milker, you might like our just now released interviews with Tasteless, Feast and Kas as well.
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On August 22 2012 00:54 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 00:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On August 21 2012 20:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 21 2012 15:08 avilo wrote:It would be interesting to know the exact thought process/reasoning behind the recent interview statements is all i'm saying considering a majority of the community would disagree with the assessment that "Zerg is struggling." you've decided to play a new game. new games are volatile. if you want more stability pick an older game. some of these older games have imbalances that are well known and tightly quantified. by old i mean 50 years old or more if your goal is to play games professionally and you believe Blizzard and/or David Kim are incompetent and/or dishonest then pick a different game. any other choice would be career suicide. poker, curling, backgammon and chess are a few older games that can be played professionally. in order for you to speak for "a majority of the community" i gather you are at minimum bilingual? you speak both korean and english... maybe cantonese and russian too? every one not immersed in 4+ hours per day of SC2 game play believes David Kim and Blizzard have only one motive. a 1/3 , 1/3, 1/3 winning ratio split between each of the races. do you think David Kim is being less than honest and wants either Zerg or Protoss to dominate the game? Forget about special guest appearances on "State Of The Inside Game" or whatever these shows are that JPWheat runs or whatever their names are... Get on the Alex Jones show and state your case that David Kim is actually part of the nWo or Illuminati or wants to secretly implant silver fillings in our teeth so we all end up dumb. if David Kim were either incompetent or had any kind of alterior motive other than balanced winning ratios between races then every Blizzard employee (who feeds their children with the money they make from Blizzard) would want him fired instantly. I see what you are trying to do with the Illuminati, conspiracy theories are always on the verge of the reasonable and person who spreads them often times looks like a lunatic, but you can still go middle of the road and say that, since Starcraft 2 is much more popular/played on the international scene than BW was, Blizzard maybe wants a race that will be easier to play so that foreigners can have their heroes that can stand up to Koreans. I mean, we already have Stephano, just look how many viewers he is pulling when he streams. Protoss was never really that strong when we look at overall win rates, terran if buffed would result in guys like Mvp having a field day and zerg basically has huge potential because it is very focused on heavy macro play and it gets exponentially stronger the more bases you have. I'm not saying there is a certain ulterior motive and David Kim sure isn't a lizard, but international market is way bigger than Korean market and people do like to see foreigners win. I have to disagree with you on the conspiracy theory, because there are so many units in HotS that are totally unbalanceable that the game becomes unplayable. The units which can be balanced and are fair (Battle Hellion and that new mech unit which I forgot the name of) will be balanced to be fair during the beta. The mothership core with the three basic abilities does create a totally new meta for the early game and therefore isnt one of those balanceable units. It seems to be one of those non-optional things you have to get as a Protoss ... like Warp Gate research. I wish they hadnt come up with such a stupid "must have" design again and instead had given alternatives for each race instead. My vote clearly goes to the "Blizzard designers are incompetent" pile and not the "they have an ulterior motive" one.
this is funny, as i always thought that the tempest is way easier to balance. For me it is like a nuke with damage-over-time. Is a nuke overpowered? It certainly has enough damage to be worth getting it, and it can win games by forcing the opponents hand. As of right now, the tempest seems to cost way too much (especially in supply), so you will not mass them, but you will get the occational one or two for picking up high priority targets from long range (tanks, ghosts, medivacs).
On the other hand, battle hellions seem to be like the worst unit ever to balance. If in normal mode (like they are right now), they need 3 baneling hits to be taken out. In HotS? Trololol, i just transform them before the impact of the baneling, suddenly the can absorb 8 baneling hits due to not being light armored anymore, plus having more hp.
Why did they suck in TvP? Because they required Zealots to line up, plus they got crushed way too badly to Colossi. Will they be more viable now? I guess not, since Colossi still deal decent damage, plus suddenly the Immortal became even stronger in fighting the Terran Mech army straight on. But you suddenly will lose 20 Zerglings to 4 Hellions, even when getting that full surround. Easy to balance? I highly doubt that.
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D Kim: "And the reason for that is, because the Swarm Host is very unique in that there’s nothing like it in Wings of Liberty. Because the Swarm Host keeps generating free units over and over. "
Has he heard of broodlords? (infestors and hatcheries could qualify for this too, practically free :p)
Milker: "So I’m really looking forward to seeing the Viper at the pro level and sitting at a BarCraft and have that moment where just the perfect abduct is pulled off and everyone is screaming and that’s something I’m really really looking forward to. "
People will be screaming WTF is this imba BS, let me micro my units, not have them flung about the map by my opponent,neural and fungal are annoying enough as it is. Let me control my units plz.
D Kim: " And we will continue doing so if we find some of those things that either aren’t feeling that great or that we could improve upon."
This mean the old profile snapshot will be back soon?, much preferred the old one.
D Kim: "The carrier is actually removed right now. There’s two main reasons. One is the Carrier is a unit that is not used very frequently in WoL."
This really pissed me off, they used that excuse to remove flux vanes, then they said they were removing khydarian amulet because it was being used too much.
Is it not the balance teams job to buff the underpowered things so that the see more use? (while also nerfing the overpowered things so that they can not be abused).
They buffed the battlecruisers speed from 1.406 to 1.875 when the battlecruiser was not seeing much use, they reduced the build time on ultralisks to encourage zerg players to use them more they have changed many other units so that more people would use them but they have never changed anything about the carrier.
The carrier is cheaper then the battlecruiser by 50/50 and yet it takes 120s to build, the BC takes 90s. If anything the carrier should build faster then the BC.
The ultralisk is cheaper then the carrier by 50/50 and it takes 55s to build, faster by 65s.
Why does it take 2 minutes to build a carrier?, imo that is WAY too long.
I think more people would use the carrier if they made it build faster and let the interceptors stay outside of the carrier when it is issued move commands (like broodlings with the broodlord) they could impose a range the interceptors must be within.
Also they could make the interceptors free, that should be fairly easy to implement and I cant imagine many people complaining about that. No other units have to pay to shoot in SC2.
They say they are replacing it with the tempest but of the 2 I would say the carrier is the one that must stay. I thought the tempest was supposed to be protosses answer to mass mutalisk, not a 22 range pew pew ship.
Everytime I hear blizzards reasoning behind their decisions I get more annoyed, the queen/overlord patch, the UI patch and these HOTS changes I have been seeing are all changes in the wrong direction imo.
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Forgot to mention my dislike of this new A move Terran mech composition vs protoss of battlehellion + warhound.
Do not like the new protoss units either.
Only change I like in the "current" build is the timer on the spider/widow mine, I like the way it forces quick micro and good potential if it does friendly damage with lings running into marines, the hit marine stimming away from the pack into opponent scvs or a hit stalker blinking into a ghost etc.
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On August 22 2012 03:53 paddyz wrote:
Forgot to mention my dislike of this new A move Terran mech composition vs protoss of battlehellion + warhound.
Do not like the new protoss units either.
Only change I like in the "current" build is the timer on the spider/widow mine, I like the way it forces quick micro and good potential if it does friendly damage with lings running into marines, the hit marine stimming away from the pack into opponent scvs or a hit stalker blinking into a ghost etc.
Umm what? I thought Kim said they removed the timer.
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If he removed the timer I have lost all faith in blizzard.
It was good while it lasted, got to play over 5k games, over 800 this season. Its rare that you get to enjoy a game for that long. I thought SC2 would be something a bit more special, that it would improve with time, seems not. HOTS has not hit yet though, there is still time for them to undo these stupid changes.
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On August 22 2012 03:25 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 00:54 Rabiator wrote:On August 22 2012 00:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On August 21 2012 20:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 21 2012 15:08 avilo wrote:It would be interesting to know the exact thought process/reasoning behind the recent interview statements is all i'm saying considering a majority of the community would disagree with the assessment that "Zerg is struggling." you've decided to play a new game. new games are volatile. if you want more stability pick an older game. some of these older games have imbalances that are well known and tightly quantified. by old i mean 50 years old or more if your goal is to play games professionally and you believe Blizzard and/or David Kim are incompetent and/or dishonest then pick a different game. any other choice would be career suicide. poker, curling, backgammon and chess are a few older games that can be played professionally. in order for you to speak for "a majority of the community" i gather you are at minimum bilingual? you speak both korean and english... maybe cantonese and russian too? every one not immersed in 4+ hours per day of SC2 game play believes David Kim and Blizzard have only one motive. a 1/3 , 1/3, 1/3 winning ratio split between each of the races. do you think David Kim is being less than honest and wants either Zerg or Protoss to dominate the game? Forget about special guest appearances on "State Of The Inside Game" or whatever these shows are that JPWheat runs or whatever their names are... Get on the Alex Jones show and state your case that David Kim is actually part of the nWo or Illuminati or wants to secretly implant silver fillings in our teeth so we all end up dumb. if David Kim were either incompetent or had any kind of alterior motive other than balanced winning ratios between races then every Blizzard employee (who feeds their children with the money they make from Blizzard) would want him fired instantly. I see what you are trying to do with the Illuminati, conspiracy theories are always on the verge of the reasonable and person who spreads them often times looks like a lunatic, but you can still go middle of the road and say that, since Starcraft 2 is much more popular/played on the international scene than BW was, Blizzard maybe wants a race that will be easier to play so that foreigners can have their heroes that can stand up to Koreans. I mean, we already have Stephano, just look how many viewers he is pulling when he streams. Protoss was never really that strong when we look at overall win rates, terran if buffed would result in guys like Mvp having a field day and zerg basically has huge potential because it is very focused on heavy macro play and it gets exponentially stronger the more bases you have. I'm not saying there is a certain ulterior motive and David Kim sure isn't a lizard, but international market is way bigger than Korean market and people do like to see foreigners win. I have to disagree with you on the conspiracy theory, because there are so many units in HotS that are totally unbalanceable that the game becomes unplayable. The units which can be balanced and are fair (Battle Hellion and that new mech unit which I forgot the name of) will be balanced to be fair during the beta. The mothership core with the three basic abilities does create a totally new meta for the early game and therefore isnt one of those balanceable units. It seems to be one of those non-optional things you have to get as a Protoss ... like Warp Gate research. I wish they hadnt come up with such a stupid "must have" design again and instead had given alternatives for each race instead. My vote clearly goes to the "Blizzard designers are incompetent" pile and not the "they have an ulterior motive" one. this is funny, as i always thought that the tempest is way easier to balance. For me it is like a nuke with damage-over-time. Is a nuke overpowered? It certainly has enough damage to be worth getting it, and it can win games by forcing the opponents hand. As of right now, the tempest seems to cost way too much (especially in supply), so you will not mass them, but you will get the occational one or two for picking up high priority targets from long range (tanks, ghosts, medivacs). On the other hand, battle hellions seem to be like the worst unit ever to balance. If in normal mode (like they are right now), they need 3 baneling hits to be taken out. In HotS? Trololol, i just transform them before the impact of the baneling, suddenly the can absorb 8 baneling hits due to not being light armored anymore, plus having more hp. Why did they suck in TvP? Because they required Zealots to line up, plus they got crushed way too badly to Colossi. Will they be more viable now? I guess not, since Colossi still deal decent damage, plus suddenly the Immortal became even stronger in fighting the Terran Mech army straight on. But you suddenly will lose 20 Zerglings to 4 Hellions, even when getting that full surround. Easy to balance? I highly doubt that.
You seriously compare a Tempest with a regular 22 range attack to a nuke which has to be built separately in a building and thus isnt available every few seconds (unless you spend A LOT of resources to build many of those silos)? According to the Liquipedia the Nuke is launched by a Ghost at a range of 12, which is pretty short compared to the "you cant even see me" range of the Tempest. It is this fact of awesome range AND regular (though slow atm and therefore pretty useless for the cost) attack AND the fact that Oracles can give vision on buildings for some time (and then run away) OR cloaked Observers giving vision which makes the Tempest terrible. Being able to attack from a safe distance - thus REQUIRING certain actions from the opponent like massive numbers of detectors to check for Observers - is a terrible thing in a strategy game and for the same reason the Swarm Host is going to be either completely broken (most likely) or totally useless, because it gives free units and doesnt include risk in any attack.
Did you know that the transformation for Battle Hellions takes A FEW SECONDS? Thus it seems pretty fair to me, because you cant instantly switch it up when you dont need mobility anymore. This is a FAIR AND BALANCED unit design, because it involves immobility again (during transformation), just like the Tank transformation makes it vulnerable for a short time. The battle Hellion is easier to balance because you have that weakness as a tradeoff, something which neither Tempest nor Swarm Host have.
Hellion presentation at Blizzcon 2011
On August 22 2012 03:53 paddyz wrote:
Forgot to mention my dislike of this new A move Terran mech composition vs protoss of battlehellion + warhound.
Do not like the new protoss units either.
Only change I like in the "current" build is the timer on the spider/widow mine, I like the way it forces quick micro and good potential if it does friendly damage with lings running into marines, the hit marine stimming away from the pack into opponent scvs or a hit stalker blinking into a ghost etc.
All of Zerg and Protoss is deathbally a-move already. Why shouldnt Terran mech be "upgraded" [sarcasm alert] to the same state?
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Carriers and BC don't appear in multiplayer very often because they suck, if blizzard can buff the BC why can't they buff the carrier? What logic is this???
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On August 23 2012 14:28 uh-oh wrote:
Carriers and BC don't appear in multiplayer very often because they suck, if blizzard can buff the BC why can't they buff the carrier? What logic is this???
They actually don't suck. It's just really hard to tech switch to them and get them out. They take a long time to build which is why they "suck".
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On August 22 2012 03:25 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 00:54 Rabiator wrote:On August 22 2012 00:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On August 21 2012 20:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 21 2012 15:08 avilo wrote:It would be interesting to know the exact thought process/reasoning behind the recent interview statements is all i'm saying considering a majority of the community would disagree with the assessment that "Zerg is struggling." you've decided to play a new game. new games are volatile. if you want more stability pick an older game. some of these older games have imbalances that are well known and tightly quantified. by old i mean 50 years old or more if your goal is to play games professionally and you believe Blizzard and/or David Kim are incompetent and/or dishonest then pick a different game. any other choice would be career suicide. poker, curling, backgammon and chess are a few older games that can be played professionally. in order for you to speak for "a majority of the community" i gather you are at minimum bilingual? you speak both korean and english... maybe cantonese and russian too? every one not immersed in 4+ hours per day of SC2 game play believes David Kim and Blizzard have only one motive. a 1/3 , 1/3, 1/3 winning ratio split between each of the races. do you think David Kim is being less than honest and wants either Zerg or Protoss to dominate the game? Forget about special guest appearances on "State Of The Inside Game" or whatever these shows are that JPWheat runs or whatever their names are... Get on the Alex Jones show and state your case that David Kim is actually part of the nWo or Illuminati or wants to secretly implant silver fillings in our teeth so we all end up dumb. if David Kim were either incompetent or had any kind of alterior motive other than balanced winning ratios between races then every Blizzard employee (who feeds their children with the money they make from Blizzard) would want him fired instantly. I see what you are trying to do with the Illuminati, conspiracy theories are always on the verge of the reasonable and person who spreads them often times looks like a lunatic, but you can still go middle of the road and say that, since Starcraft 2 is much more popular/played on the international scene than BW was, Blizzard maybe wants a race that will be easier to play so that foreigners can have their heroes that can stand up to Koreans. I mean, we already have Stephano, just look how many viewers he is pulling when he streams. Protoss was never really that strong when we look at overall win rates, terran if buffed would result in guys like Mvp having a field day and zerg basically has huge potential because it is very focused on heavy macro play and it gets exponentially stronger the more bases you have. I'm not saying there is a certain ulterior motive and David Kim sure isn't a lizard, but international market is way bigger than Korean market and people do like to see foreigners win. I have to disagree with you on the conspiracy theory, because there are so many units in HotS that are totally unbalanceable that the game becomes unplayable. The units which can be balanced and are fair (Battle Hellion and that new mech unit which I forgot the name of) will be balanced to be fair during the beta. The mothership core with the three basic abilities does create a totally new meta for the early game and therefore isnt one of those balanceable units. It seems to be one of those non-optional things you have to get as a Protoss ... like Warp Gate research. I wish they hadnt come up with such a stupid "must have" design again and instead had given alternatives for each race instead. My vote clearly goes to the "Blizzard designers are incompetent" pile and not the "they have an ulterior motive" one. this is funny, as i always thought that the tempest is way easier to balance. For me it is like a nuke with damage-over-time. Is a nuke overpowered? It certainly has enough damage to be worth getting it, and it can win games by forcing the opponents hand. As of right now, the tempest seems to cost way too much (especially in supply), so you will not mass them, but you will get the occational one or two for picking up high priority targets from long range (tanks, ghosts, medivacs). On the other hand, battle hellions seem to be like the worst unit ever to balance. If in normal mode (like they are right now), they need 3 baneling hits to be taken out. In HotS? Trololol, i just transform them before the impact of the baneling, suddenly the can absorb 8 baneling hits due to not being light armored anymore, plus having more hp. Why did they suck in TvP? Because they required Zealots to line up, plus they got crushed way too badly to Colossi. Will they be more viable now? I guess not, since Colossi still deal decent damage, plus suddenly the Immortal became even stronger in fighting the Terran Mech army straight on. But you suddenly will lose 20 Zerglings to 4 Hellions, even when getting that full surround. Easy to balance? I highly doubt that.
Although I haven't had a chance to play HotS yet, my understanding was that hellions would have a noticeable tranformation time, and hence changing modes with them mid-battle would usually not be a good idea.
I actually like the idea, even if I think some details need a tweak, because they fill the role of cannon fodder for a siege tank mech army. The number one reason seige tanks are not used in mid-to-late game TvP is that chargelots shut them down really hard. Battle hellions go a long way towards addressing this problem.
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Well, it's also because Carriers are not really cost-effective even when they're out, except for things that physically can't shoot back (complacent Broodlord spammers). Something can have a low reward/risk ratio by hitting a low numerator (low reward) AND a high denominator (high risk), that's like quadratically bad.
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On August 23 2012 14:30 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 14:28 uh-oh wrote:
Carriers and BC don't appear in multiplayer very often because they suck, if blizzard can buff the BC why can't they buff the carrier? What logic is this??? They actually don't suck. It's just really hard to tech switch to them and get them out. They take a long time to build which is why they "suck".
currently the problem with both capital ships is that they are costly and they are too upgrade dependent, especially for the carrier where +1 armor can take away 20% of their dps, if blizzard can patch BCs to make them a bit better, they can patch the carrier too, why are they giving up on this starcraft cultural icon is beyond me.
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On August 23 2012 14:28 uh-oh wrote:
Carriers and BC don't appear in multiplayer very often because they suck, if blizzard can buff the BC why can't they buff the carrier? What logic is this???
Thats exactly the point which is frustrating a lot of people, because they dont understand why Blizzard didnt even try for 2 years to make the Carrier work and even the other underused units dont get many adjustments either. Reapers, Ravens, Carriers should receive adjustments just like the Warp Prism and the Queen got. The BC isnt really "finished to be adjusted" either.
The sad part is that they cant do too many adjustment to "core" skills and units in quick succession, because that will completely destroy the precarious balancing of the races for the pro scene and could produce "random big money tournament winners", which would be terrible for them if suddenly Joe11257 won MLG by figuring out an OP strat for one precise moment due to a recent patch change to the core stuff.
The game balance is VERY DEPENDANT upon the maps and since they are slightly different for each tournament this causes problems for the racial balance, which is on a knifes edge due to Blizzard insisting on making SC2 like they did [such hugely different economic and production burst potential in the races will cause one or the other race having big advantages at a certain time in the game and that is actually terrible]. This dependance upon maps does make me doubt Blizzards skill at designing new units, since they have apparently created yet another set of "too small" maps for their new gimmicks. I really hope they are playing more games on the current large maps to test the balance of their new units.
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