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On August 21 2012 05:43 VictorJones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:51 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On August 21 2012 00:30 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 Sylverin wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 21:50 Zer atai wrote:On August 20 2012 21:45 USvBleakill wrote:On August 20 2012 21:22 bokeevboke wrote:
Lets be honest, SC2 is going nowhere. There is no growing scene. No big prize pool, no viewership. A dream which never came to reality is over. Only dedicated fans are left. Sadly we are spectating the death of yet another great game.
Legendary starcraft will perish in the pockets of stakeholders and memories of gamers TT Too much people are just too negative... HoTs still alpha, look at WoL at this time it was horrible pre beta. Give Blizzard some time and faith. Did anyone played SC1 Beta? or pre BW? I´m almost sure they were horrible at this time. Totally agree. How many people were watching the first years of the OSL? A lot less then the people watching GSL, that's for certain. Because of endless faith blizz keeps on fucking up, how can u even compare pre BW or first OSL to now? Times were totaly different, everyone was discovering starcraft and gaming. I can undrestand fuckups in Starcraft 1, its new game and things needs to be tested. I can even undrestand fuckups in SC2 beta, its sequel but new ppl try new ideas, they also approach casual gamers but for gods sake its more than 2 years since release now, amount of feedback they got from all the pro players and community is huge and they still keep on making same stupid mistakes, create same dumb type of units, "fix" things that do not need to be fixed and dont do anything about some other obvious stuff. How can u even have faith that after all the time they put into creating alpha, soon to be beta, that they will suddenly change things around. edit: Im not saying that hots will be terrible terrible game but it doesnt rly look like improvement, more like simple addiotion to the game and we all expect more. If I were allowed I would input a mr. wonka meme pic. So tell me now how you are the best programmer ever, and make zero errors. On topic I like the ideals behind these new units but...they fall very short of the mark. the only one im looking forward to is mothership/oracle stuff How is me beeing programmer related to anyting I wrote there? I never said anything about bugs or other programming errors. Yeah, unfortunatey the community is dissatisfied with the substance and not the implementation. Blizzard has been pretty insulated concerning their vision and the desires of the players. Well there aren't very many communities in the gaming world that think their input is more valuable than the game designers'. The starcraft community has a certain sense of entitlement that says, "Yeah, you're making the game, and without you none of what i'm experiencing would be possible, and you are the sole reason that starcraft 2, and therefore the competitive starcraft 2 scene that I am a part of exists, but I hate you blizzard. You aren't listening to my ideas about how the game should work. You are a terrible company. Your product will spell the end of competitive gaming and you are to blame." I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about stupid things in the game that can be made better and more enjoyable for us... But really, we definitely need to remember that it's a game that we have logged countless hours into playing and watching. If you haven't enjoyed those hours then you're stupid for consuming the product. If you have, then bear that in mind when you are making really harsh accusations :|
I want to see "Starcraft 2 as designed by community consensus" one day, just to observe how terrible it will be.
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Now that terrans have mines, shouldn't they do away with PFs? An expo with a PF, turrets, and mines will make terran even more unharrassable by protoss than it is now.
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On August 20 2012 21:22 bokeevboke wrote:
Lets be honest, SC2 is going nowhere. There is no growing scene. No big prize pool, no viewership. A dream which never came to reality is over. Only dedicated fans are left. Sadly we are spectating the death of yet another great game.
Legendary starcraft will perish in the pockets of stakeholders and memories of gamers TT
IF starcraft is slowly dying as an esport, it won't be the games fault. Back in the day you basically had one watchable high-level esport: Starcraft Brood War. Granted, counter-strike existed as well, but it was more a player's game than it was a spectator's game.
Fast forward to 2012: esports is growing rapidly. Starcraft 2 used to have the higher viewer count, but that was quickly eclipsed by a F2P moba game: League of CasualsLegends. Other esport games on the horizon are: Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DOTA2, and probably some others. Viewers can't split their attention over four or five games, so they choose the one they like the most. In case of tl.net it'll be Starcraft.
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On August 21 2012 07:44 AndAgain wrote:
Now that terrans have mines, shouldn't they do away with PFs? An expo with a PF, turrets, and mines will make terran even more unharrassable by protoss than it is now.
PF's are absolutely crucial to the balance of TvZ. A few mines are not going to stop a mass of lings / infested terrans / ultras from barrelling down an expansion.
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On August 21 2012 07:56 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 21:22 bokeevboke wrote:
Lets be honest, SC2 is going nowhere. There is no growing scene. No big prize pool, no viewership. A dream which never came to reality is over. Only dedicated fans are left. Sadly we are spectating the death of yet another great game.
Legendary starcraft will perish in the pockets of stakeholders and memories of gamers TT IF starcraft is slowly dying as an esport, it won't be the games fault. Back in the day you basically had one watchable high-level esport: Starcraft Brood War. Granted, counter-strike existed as well, but it was more a player's game than it was a spectator's game. Fast forward to 2012: esports is growing rapidly. Starcraft 2 used to have the higher viewer count, but that was quickly eclipsed by a F2P moba game: League of CasualsLegends. Other esport games on the horizon are: Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DOTA2, and probably some others. Viewers can't split their attention over four or five games, so they choose the one they like the most. In case of tl.net it'll be Starcraft.
Many people didn't have computer and internet back in the days. I can also boldly claim that the ratio of starcraft players to the people who had computer were much higher back then. But its been beaten to death.
People try to tell LoL is for casuals thats why its popular, I don't quite agree with that. There were many attempts before to create MOBAs but it all failed due to bad design or false expectations. LoL is a very good game, much better than SC WOL. if Blizzard worked more on overall design and paid more attention to the community I'm sure we could also have as large playerbase and viewership as in LoL. It seems Blizzard is just following design principle of modern game industry "THE MORE COOL STUFF YOU MAKE THE MORE PEOPLE BUY IT".
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On August 21 2012 06:39 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:43 VictorJones wrote:On August 21 2012 00:51 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On August 21 2012 00:30 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 Sylverin wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 21:50 Zer atai wrote:On August 20 2012 21:45 USvBleakill wrote:On August 20 2012 21:22 bokeevboke wrote:
Lets be honest, SC2 is going nowhere. There is no growing scene. No big prize pool, no viewership. A dream which never came to reality is over. Only dedicated fans are left. Sadly we are spectating the death of yet another great game.
Legendary starcraft will perish in the pockets of stakeholders and memories of gamers TT Too much people are just too negative... HoTs still alpha, look at WoL at this time it was horrible pre beta. Give Blizzard some time and faith. Did anyone played SC1 Beta? or pre BW? I´m almost sure they were horrible at this time. Totally agree. How many people were watching the first years of the OSL? A lot less then the people watching GSL, that's for certain. Because of endless faith blizz keeps on fucking up, how can u even compare pre BW or first OSL to now? Times were totaly different, everyone was discovering starcraft and gaming. I can undrestand fuckups in Starcraft 1, its new game and things needs to be tested. I can even undrestand fuckups in SC2 beta, its sequel but new ppl try new ideas, they also approach casual gamers but for gods sake its more than 2 years since release now, amount of feedback they got from all the pro players and community is huge and they still keep on making same stupid mistakes, create same dumb type of units, "fix" things that do not need to be fixed and dont do anything about some other obvious stuff. How can u even have faith that after all the time they put into creating alpha, soon to be beta, that they will suddenly change things around. edit: Im not saying that hots will be terrible terrible game but it doesnt rly look like improvement, more like simple addiotion to the game and we all expect more. If I were allowed I would input a mr. wonka meme pic. So tell me now how you are the best programmer ever, and make zero errors. On topic I like the ideals behind these new units but...they fall very short of the mark. the only one im looking forward to is mothership/oracle stuff How is me beeing programmer related to anyting I wrote there? I never said anything about bugs or other programming errors. Yeah, unfortunatey the community is dissatisfied with the substance and not the implementation. Blizzard has been pretty insulated concerning their vision and the desires of the players. Well there aren't very many communities in the gaming world that think their input is more valuable than the game designers'. The starcraft community has a certain sense of entitlement that says, "Yeah, you're making the game, and without you none of what i'm experiencing would be possible, and you are the sole reason that starcraft 2, and therefore the competitive starcraft 2 scene that I am a part of exists, but I hate you blizzard. You aren't listening to my ideas about how the game should work. You are a terrible company. Your product will spell the end of competitive gaming and you are to blame." I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about stupid things in the game that can be made better and more enjoyable for us... But really, we definitely need to remember that it's a game that we have logged countless hours into playing and watching. If you haven't enjoyed those hours then you're stupid for consuming the product. If you have, then bear that in mind when you are making really harsh accusations :| I want to see "Starcraft 2 as designed by community consensus" one day, just to observe how terrible it will be.
Hahahaha. It would be so broken and patched daily. We probably wouldn't even have marines left. Probably just workers.
EDIT: Oh, and the "make more cool stuff" is all game design is meant to be. Make cool things, balance them later. That's honestly the best approach. Else you make something balanced which is just 'ok' and the audience give less than 2 shits. Nukes are cool. I imagine they said "We're going to have nukes" rather than "We're going to have a super high damage AOE with a long cast time because that will balance terran better."
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On August 21 2012 13:18 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:39 Grumbels wrote:On August 21 2012 05:43 VictorJones wrote:On August 21 2012 00:51 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On August 21 2012 00:30 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 Sylverin wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 21:50 Zer atai wrote:On August 20 2012 21:45 USvBleakill wrote:On August 20 2012 21:22 bokeevboke wrote:
Lets be honest, SC2 is going nowhere. There is no growing scene. No big prize pool, no viewership. A dream which never came to reality is over. Only dedicated fans are left. Sadly we are spectating the death of yet another great game.
Legendary starcraft will perish in the pockets of stakeholders and memories of gamers TT Too much people are just too negative... HoTs still alpha, look at WoL at this time it was horrible pre beta. Give Blizzard some time and faith. Did anyone played SC1 Beta? or pre BW? I´m almost sure they were horrible at this time. Totally agree. How many people were watching the first years of the OSL? A lot less then the people watching GSL, that's for certain. Because of endless faith blizz keeps on fucking up, how can u even compare pre BW or first OSL to now? Times were totaly different, everyone was discovering starcraft and gaming. I can undrestand fuckups in Starcraft 1, its new game and things needs to be tested. I can even undrestand fuckups in SC2 beta, its sequel but new ppl try new ideas, they also approach casual gamers but for gods sake its more than 2 years since release now, amount of feedback they got from all the pro players and community is huge and they still keep on making same stupid mistakes, create same dumb type of units, "fix" things that do not need to be fixed and dont do anything about some other obvious stuff. How can u even have faith that after all the time they put into creating alpha, soon to be beta, that they will suddenly change things around. edit: Im not saying that hots will be terrible terrible game but it doesnt rly look like improvement, more like simple addiotion to the game and we all expect more. If I were allowed I would input a mr. wonka meme pic. So tell me now how you are the best programmer ever, and make zero errors. On topic I like the ideals behind these new units but...they fall very short of the mark. the only one im looking forward to is mothership/oracle stuff How is me beeing programmer related to anyting I wrote there? I never said anything about bugs or other programming errors. Yeah, unfortunatey the community is dissatisfied with the substance and not the implementation. Blizzard has been pretty insulated concerning their vision and the desires of the players. Well there aren't very many communities in the gaming world that think their input is more valuable than the game designers'. The starcraft community has a certain sense of entitlement that says, "Yeah, you're making the game, and without you none of what i'm experiencing would be possible, and you are the sole reason that starcraft 2, and therefore the competitive starcraft 2 scene that I am a part of exists, but I hate you blizzard. You aren't listening to my ideas about how the game should work. You are a terrible company. Your product will spell the end of competitive gaming and you are to blame." I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about stupid things in the game that can be made better and more enjoyable for us... But really, we definitely need to remember that it's a game that we have logged countless hours into playing and watching. If you haven't enjoyed those hours then you're stupid for consuming the product. If you have, then bear that in mind when you are making really harsh accusations :| I want to see "Starcraft 2 as designed by community consensus" one day, just to observe how terrible it will be. Hahahaha. It would be so broken and patched daily. We probably wouldn't even have marines left. Probably just workers. EDIT: Oh, and the "make more cool stuff" is all game design is meant to be. Make cool things, balance them later. That's honestly the best approach. Else you make something balanced which is just 'ok' and the audience give less than 2 shits. Nukes are cool. I imagine they said "We're going to have nukes" rather than "We're going to have a super high damage AOE with a long cast time because that will balance terran better."
Examples of cool stuff in SC2:
Warp-mechanism. coolness: units showing up like in movies. problems, removes any sort of strategic positioning, defender's advantage, forcess all-ins, not applicable to RTS genre.
Colossi. coolness: war of the worlds thing, cliff-walking. problems: 1A, deathball unit.
Reaper. coolness: cliff jump, grenades. problems: immensely op or completely useless.
Viking. coolness: transformation. problems: no speed (can't be made faster since it would be op harrass unit)
Roach. coolness: burrow, regen. problems: became just a massable 1a unit.
Thor. coolness: epic robot unit. problems: can't be microed, 1A.
These are just from top of my head, I'm sure there are more problems.
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On August 21 2012 13:58 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:18 bittman wrote:On August 21 2012 06:39 Grumbels wrote:On August 21 2012 05:43 VictorJones wrote:On August 21 2012 00:51 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On August 21 2012 00:30 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 Sylverin wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 21:50 Zer atai wrote:On August 20 2012 21:45 USvBleakill wrote:
[quote]
Too much people are just too negative...
HoTs still alpha, look at WoL at this time it was horrible pre beta. Give Blizzard some time and faith.
Did anyone played SC1 Beta? or pre BW? I´m almost sure they were horrible at this time. Totally agree. How many people were watching the first years of the OSL? A lot less then the people watching GSL, that's for certain. Because of endless faith blizz keeps on fucking up, how can u even compare pre BW or first OSL to now? Times were totaly different, everyone was discovering starcraft and gaming. I can undrestand fuckups in Starcraft 1, its new game and things needs to be tested. I can even undrestand fuckups in SC2 beta, its sequel but new ppl try new ideas, they also approach casual gamers but for gods sake its more than 2 years since release now, amount of feedback they got from all the pro players and community is huge and they still keep on making same stupid mistakes, create same dumb type of units, "fix" things that do not need to be fixed and dont do anything about some other obvious stuff. How can u even have faith that after all the time they put into creating alpha, soon to be beta, that they will suddenly change things around. edit: Im not saying that hots will be terrible terrible game but it doesnt rly look like improvement, more like simple addiotion to the game and we all expect more. If I were allowed I would input a mr. wonka meme pic. So tell me now how you are the best programmer ever, and make zero errors. On topic I like the ideals behind these new units but...they fall very short of the mark. the only one im looking forward to is mothership/oracle stuff How is me beeing programmer related to anyting I wrote there? I never said anything about bugs or other programming errors. Yeah, unfortunatey the community is dissatisfied with the substance and not the implementation. Blizzard has been pretty insulated concerning their vision and the desires of the players. Well there aren't very many communities in the gaming world that think their input is more valuable than the game designers'. The starcraft community has a certain sense of entitlement that says, "Yeah, you're making the game, and without you none of what i'm experiencing would be possible, and you are the sole reason that starcraft 2, and therefore the competitive starcraft 2 scene that I am a part of exists, but I hate you blizzard. You aren't listening to my ideas about how the game should work. You are a terrible company. Your product will spell the end of competitive gaming and you are to blame." I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about stupid things in the game that can be made better and more enjoyable for us... But really, we definitely need to remember that it's a game that we have logged countless hours into playing and watching. If you haven't enjoyed those hours then you're stupid for consuming the product. If you have, then bear that in mind when you are making really harsh accusations :| I want to see "Starcraft 2 as designed by community consensus" one day, just to observe how terrible it will be. Hahahaha. It would be so broken and patched daily. We probably wouldn't even have marines left. Probably just workers. EDIT: Oh, and the "make more cool stuff" is all game design is meant to be. Make cool things, balance them later. That's honestly the best approach. Else you make something balanced which is just 'ok' and the audience give less than 2 shits. Nukes are cool. I imagine they said "We're going to have nukes" rather than "We're going to have a super high damage AOE with a long cast time because that will balance terran better." Examples of cool stuff in SC2: Warp-mechanism. coolness: units showing up like in movies. problems, removes any sort of strategic positioning, defender's advantage, forcess all-ins, not applicable to RTS genre. Colossi. coolness: war of the worlds thing, cliff-walking. problems: 1A, deathball unit. Reaper. coolness: cliff jump, grenades. problems: immensely op or completely useless. Viking. coolness: transformation. problems: no speed (can't be made faster since it would be op harrass unit) Roach. coolness: burrow, regen. problems: became just a massable 1a unit. Thor. coolness: epic robot unit. problems: can't be microed, 1A. These are just from top of my head, I'm sure there are more problems.
Reaver was cool
Defiler was cool
Carrier was cool
Oh, many of the BW new units were pretty cool and really enhanced the game play (lurker, dt, corsair, medic, valkyrie), in my opinion. Hope HOTS will also enhance SC2's gameplay.
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On August 21 2012 15:35 ultratorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:58 bokeevboke wrote:On August 21 2012 13:18 bittman wrote:On August 21 2012 06:39 Grumbels wrote:On August 21 2012 05:43 VictorJones wrote:On August 21 2012 00:51 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On August 21 2012 00:30 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 Sylverin wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 21:50 Zer atai wrote:
[quote]
Totally agree. How many people were watching the first years of the OSL? A lot less then the people watching GSL, that's for certain. Because of endless faith blizz keeps on fucking up, how can u even compare pre BW or first OSL to now? Times were totaly different, everyone was discovering starcraft and gaming. I can undrestand fuckups in Starcraft 1, its new game and things needs to be tested. I can even undrestand fuckups in SC2 beta, its sequel but new ppl try new ideas, they also approach casual gamers but for gods sake its more than 2 years since release now, amount of feedback they got from all the pro players and community is huge and they still keep on making same stupid mistakes, create same dumb type of units, "fix" things that do not need to be fixed and dont do anything about some other obvious stuff. How can u even have faith that after all the time they put into creating alpha, soon to be beta, that they will suddenly change things around. edit: Im not saying that hots will be terrible terrible game but it doesnt rly look like improvement, more like simple addiotion to the game and we all expect more. If I were allowed I would input a mr. wonka meme pic. So tell me now how you are the best programmer ever, and make zero errors. On topic I like the ideals behind these new units but...they fall very short of the mark. the only one im looking forward to is mothership/oracle stuff How is me beeing programmer related to anyting I wrote there? I never said anything about bugs or other programming errors. Yeah, unfortunatey the community is dissatisfied with the substance and not the implementation. Blizzard has been pretty insulated concerning their vision and the desires of the players. Well there aren't very many communities in the gaming world that think their input is more valuable than the game designers'. The starcraft community has a certain sense of entitlement that says, "Yeah, you're making the game, and without you none of what i'm experiencing would be possible, and you are the sole reason that starcraft 2, and therefore the competitive starcraft 2 scene that I am a part of exists, but I hate you blizzard. You aren't listening to my ideas about how the game should work. You are a terrible company. Your product will spell the end of competitive gaming and you are to blame." I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about stupid things in the game that can be made better and more enjoyable for us... But really, we definitely need to remember that it's a game that we have logged countless hours into playing and watching. If you haven't enjoyed those hours then you're stupid for consuming the product. If you have, then bear that in mind when you are making really harsh accusations :| I want to see "Starcraft 2 as designed by community consensus" one day, just to observe how terrible it will be. Hahahaha. It would be so broken and patched daily. We probably wouldn't even have marines left. Probably just workers. EDIT: Oh, and the "make more cool stuff" is all game design is meant to be. Make cool things, balance them later. That's honestly the best approach. Else you make something balanced which is just 'ok' and the audience give less than 2 shits. Nukes are cool. I imagine they said "We're going to have nukes" rather than "We're going to have a super high damage AOE with a long cast time because that will balance terran better." Examples of cool stuff in SC2: Warp-mechanism. coolness: units showing up like in movies. problems, removes any sort of strategic positioning, defender's advantage, forcess all-ins, not applicable to RTS genre. Colossi. coolness: war of the worlds thing, cliff-walking. problems: 1A, deathball unit. Reaper. coolness: cliff jump, grenades. problems: immensely op or completely useless. Viking. coolness: transformation. problems: no speed (can't be made faster since it would be op harrass unit) Roach. coolness: burrow, regen. problems: became just a massable 1a unit. Thor. coolness: epic robot unit. problems: can't be microed, 1A. These are just from top of my head, I'm sure there are more problems. Reaver was cool Defiler was cool Carrier was cool Oh, many of the BW new units were pretty cool and really enhanced the game play (lurker, dt, corsair, medic, valkyrie), in my opinion. Hope HOTS will also enhance SC2's gameplay. Hehe, i can see people's reactions when the valkyrie is reïntroduced, but somehow never was introduced in brood war:
Just another 1a unit
Countered by corruptors, so completely useless against zerg.
Terran has enough options to combat mutas
Protoss never makes air, so useless addition
Scales bad with upgrades => not viable in late game.
Useless after switch to ultra.
This addresses no issue in current metagame, so DB has no clue about the game.
Valkyrie does not address tvz fundamental flaw, bad unit.
Bad unit design, at least in bw the units were cool.
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Looking at that oracle this seems like it's only going to be effective vs terran as they have to have a choice between a static defense (planetary) vs higher income (orbital) where toss/zerg are able to make spines or cannons to counter the shields on the minerals.
Oh and the tempest 22 range is just stupid. It's stupid in every way possible for playing and for observing. Needs to change.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On August 21 2012 13:58 bokeevboke wrote:
Reaper. coolness: cliff jump, grenades. problems: immensely op or completely useless.
Viking. coolness: transformation. problems: no speed (can't be made faster since it would be op harrass unit)
Thor. coolness: epic robot unit. problems: can't be microed, 1A.
These are just from top of my head, I'm sure there are more problems.
It's not that I don't agree with you on some of them, especially warp in, but I think your three here are quite weird. The reaper could be a good unit, the trouble is Blizzard never really tinkered with it enough after they put speed onto requiring a factory.
The thor does have micro but it's target firing. If you don't target fire with the thor it just targets zealots, broodlings and other small ground stuff you don't want to attack, especially against Broodlord corrupter. The viking doesn't really have any problems minus the fact it can't really kite corrupters as they move too fast. When you have 3-3 on air vikings in the ground actually do quite a decent amount of damage and are good if you need them in a pinch to add some extra damage.
On August 21 2012 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:56 maartendq wrote:On August 20 2012 21:22 bokeevboke wrote:
Lets be honest, SC2 is going nowhere. There is no growing scene. No big prize pool, no viewership. A dream which never came to reality is over. Only dedicated fans are left. Sadly we are spectating the death of yet another great game.
Legendary starcraft will perish in the pockets of stakeholders and memories of gamers TT IF starcraft is slowly dying as an esport, it won't be the games fault. Back in the day you basically had one watchable high-level esport: Starcraft Brood War. Granted, counter-strike existed as well, but it was more a player's game than it was a spectator's game. Fast forward to 2012: esports is growing rapidly. Starcraft 2 used to have the higher viewer count, but that was quickly eclipsed by a F2P moba game: League of CasualsLegends. Other esport games on the horizon are: Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DOTA2, and probably some others. Viewers can't split their attention over four or five games, so they choose the one they like the most. In case of tl.net it'll be Starcraft. Many people didn't have computer and internet back in the days. I can also boldly claim that the ratio of starcraft players to the people who had computer were much higher back then. But its been beaten to death. People try to tell LoL is for casuals thats why its popular, I don't quite agree with that. There were many attempts before to create MOBAs but it all failed due to bad design or false expectations. LoL is a very good game, much better than SC WOL. if Blizzard worked more on overall design and paid more attention to the community I'm sure we could also have as large playerbase and viewership as in LoL. It seems Blizzard is just following design principle of modern game industry "THE MORE COOL STUFF YOU MAKE THE MORE PEOPLE BUY IT".
LoL is only bigger than SC2 because it's free to play and the main company make so much money from it that they sponser all the tournaments themselves.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
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On August 21 2012 18:12 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:58 bokeevboke wrote:
Reaper. coolness: cliff jump, grenades. problems: immensely op or completely useless.
Viking. coolness: transformation. problems: no speed (can't be made faster since it would be op harrass unit)
Thor. coolness: epic robot unit. problems: can't be microed, 1A.
These are just from top of my head, I'm sure there are more problems. It's not that I don't agree with you on some of them, especially warp in, but I think your three here are quite weird. The reaper could be a good unit, the trouble is Blizzard never really tinkered with it enough after they put speed onto requiring a factory. The thor does have micro but it's target firing. If you don't target fire with the thor it just targets zealots, broodlings and other small ground stuff you don't want to attack, especially against Broodlord corrupter. The viking doesn't really have any problems minus the fact it can't really kite corrupters as they move too fast. When you have 3-3 on air vikings in the ground actually do quite a decent amount of damage and are good if you need them in a pinch to add some extra damage. Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:On August 21 2012 07:56 maartendq wrote:On August 20 2012 21:22 bokeevboke wrote:
Lets be honest, SC2 is going nowhere. There is no growing scene. No big prize pool, no viewership. A dream which never came to reality is over. Only dedicated fans are left. Sadly we are spectating the death of yet another great game.
Legendary starcraft will perish in the pockets of stakeholders and memories of gamers TT IF starcraft is slowly dying as an esport, it won't be the games fault. Back in the day you basically had one watchable high-level esport: Starcraft Brood War. Granted, counter-strike existed as well, but it was more a player's game than it was a spectator's game. Fast forward to 2012: esports is growing rapidly. Starcraft 2 used to have the higher viewer count, but that was quickly eclipsed by a F2P moba game: League of CasualsLegends. Other esport games on the horizon are: Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DOTA2, and probably some others. Viewers can't split their attention over four or five games, so they choose the one they like the most. In case of tl.net it'll be Starcraft. Many people didn't have computer and internet back in the days. I can also boldly claim that the ratio of starcraft players to the people who had computer were much higher back then. But its been beaten to death. People try to tell LoL is for casuals thats why its popular, I don't quite agree with that. There were many attempts before to create MOBAs but it all failed due to bad design or false expectations. LoL is a very good game, much better than SC WOL. if Blizzard worked more on overall design and paid more attention to the community I'm sure we could also have as large playerbase and viewership as in LoL. It seems Blizzard is just following design principle of modern game industry "THE MORE COOL STUFF YOU MAKE THE MORE PEOPLE BUY IT". LoL is only bigger than SC2 because it's free to play and the main company make so much money from it that they sponser all the tournaments themselves.
People are not playing LoL to win money (lol!) although there many players because its free. But if say, you make sc2 free as well, I doubt many people will jump on it. Maybe some will come and mess around a bit. I know that many people who already have sc2 stopped playing (ask around in TL or check a thread about it). They don't like the game anymore, or else why would they stop? That means the game is not good and HOTS doesn't seem to be going to make it better.
Also, commenting on your viking comment. You say that 3-3 vikings are good so you can add it to your ball and make damage... That's what I'm talking about, its bad design of unit. Its just better to bunch it up and 1-a, than doing some micro or tactical moves.
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yeah stop saying that sc2 is not popular like LoL because is not free, the true is that is just a game designed badly, and also RTS are a niche sector
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On August 21 2012 15:35 ultratorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:58 bokeevboke wrote:On August 21 2012 13:18 bittman wrote:On August 21 2012 06:39 Grumbels wrote:On August 21 2012 05:43 VictorJones wrote:On August 21 2012 00:51 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On August 21 2012 00:30 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 Sylverin wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 21:50 Zer atai wrote:
[quote]
Totally agree. How many people were watching the first years of the OSL? A lot less then the people watching GSL, that's for certain. Because of endless faith blizz keeps on fucking up, how can u even compare pre BW or first OSL to now? Times were totaly different, everyone was discovering starcraft and gaming. I can undrestand fuckups in Starcraft 1, its new game and things needs to be tested. I can even undrestand fuckups in SC2 beta, its sequel but new ppl try new ideas, they also approach casual gamers but for gods sake its more than 2 years since release now, amount of feedback they got from all the pro players and community is huge and they still keep on making same stupid mistakes, create same dumb type of units, "fix" things that do not need to be fixed and dont do anything about some other obvious stuff. How can u even have faith that after all the time they put into creating alpha, soon to be beta, that they will suddenly change things around. edit: Im not saying that hots will be terrible terrible game but it doesnt rly look like improvement, more like simple addiotion to the game and we all expect more. If I were allowed I would input a mr. wonka meme pic. So tell me now how you are the best programmer ever, and make zero errors. On topic I like the ideals behind these new units but...they fall very short of the mark. the only one im looking forward to is mothership/oracle stuff How is me beeing programmer related to anyting I wrote there? I never said anything about bugs or other programming errors. Yeah, unfortunatey the community is dissatisfied with the substance and not the implementation. Blizzard has been pretty insulated concerning their vision and the desires of the players. Well there aren't very many communities in the gaming world that think their input is more valuable than the game designers'. The starcraft community has a certain sense of entitlement that says, "Yeah, you're making the game, and without you none of what i'm experiencing would be possible, and you are the sole reason that starcraft 2, and therefore the competitive starcraft 2 scene that I am a part of exists, but I hate you blizzard. You aren't listening to my ideas about how the game should work. You are a terrible company. Your product will spell the end of competitive gaming and you are to blame." I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about stupid things in the game that can be made better and more enjoyable for us... But really, we definitely need to remember that it's a game that we have logged countless hours into playing and watching. If you haven't enjoyed those hours then you're stupid for consuming the product. If you have, then bear that in mind when you are making really harsh accusations :| I want to see "Starcraft 2 as designed by community consensus" one day, just to observe how terrible it will be. Hahahaha. It would be so broken and patched daily. We probably wouldn't even have marines left. Probably just workers. EDIT: Oh, and the "make more cool stuff" is all game design is meant to be. Make cool things, balance them later. That's honestly the best approach. Else you make something balanced which is just 'ok' and the audience give less than 2 shits. Nukes are cool. I imagine they said "We're going to have nukes" rather than "We're going to have a super high damage AOE with a long cast time because that will balance terran better." Examples of cool stuff in SC2: Warp-mechanism. coolness: units showing up like in movies. problems, removes any sort of strategic positioning, defender's advantage, forcess all-ins, not applicable to RTS genre. Colossi. coolness: war of the worlds thing, cliff-walking. problems: 1A, deathball unit. Reaper. coolness: cliff jump, grenades. problems: immensely op or completely useless. Viking. coolness: transformation. problems: no speed (can't be made faster since it would be op harrass unit) Roach. coolness: burrow, regen. problems: became just a massable 1a unit. Thor. coolness: epic robot unit. problems: can't be microed, 1A. These are just from top of my head, I'm sure there are more problems. Reaver was cool Defiler was cool Carrier was cool Oh, many of the BW new units were pretty cool and really enhanced the game play (lurker, dt, corsair, medic, valkyrie), in my opinion. Hope HOTS will also enhance SC2's gameplay.
I accept that Carrier is cool. But reavers and defilers are not cool for average players. They're definitely cool for hardcores gamers who know and understand what these units capable of. You need to be topnotch to make something out of them. Compare them to colossi and infestor :/
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Reavers totally have a place for casual players. And defilers are cool to watch.
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On August 21 2012 15:35 ultratorr wrote:
Reaver was cool
Defiler was cool
Carrier was cool
Oh, many of the BW new units were pretty cool and really enhanced the game play (lurker, dt, corsair, medic, valkyrie), in my opinion. Hope HOTS will also enhance SC2's gameplay.
All of these units were "cool" in SCBW, but I am pretty sure that they wouldn't be as cool in SC2 because SC2 is very different game.
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as a diamond zerg, i like the recall and the destructible rock towers. will these 2 are good features.
Im not so sure about the Tempest. The oracle looks cool.
unhappy with widow mine and
very unhappy with warhound
 my 2cents
All the zerg units are great. <3 we've always needed a second caster. though i would like to see something different for the early game. even just one unit at hatchery tech just to fuck around with.
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i think the oracle could be a pretty sweet unit, used at certain times. i can imagine two players taking moderate to heavy, but equal, losses. During the middle of the engagement, 2 or 3 oracles sweep in and lock up the opponents mineral lines once or twice, which would make it much harder to rebuild as quickly as normal because your minerals are entombed. I'd say that it could be a pretty crippling technique if it worked. Obviously base defenses could negate some of the opportunity that Oracles would have, but it would be interesting to see it in usage.
I'm withholding judgement until HoTS is actually out, in its final form. Right now it's so early to make any kind of judgements.
Lastly, I think that SC2 suffers from what I call the Matrix syndrome. SC was amazing at the time it came out, and SC2 would be like trying to make the 2nd Matrix movie... almost anything is going to be a let down of some sort. It's so hard to eclipse that kind of feeling that the first game evoked.
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On August 21 2012 18:58 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 15:35 ultratorr wrote:On August 21 2012 13:58 bokeevboke wrote:On August 21 2012 13:18 bittman wrote:On August 21 2012 06:39 Grumbels wrote:On August 21 2012 05:43 VictorJones wrote:On August 21 2012 00:51 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On August 21 2012 00:30 alone wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 Sylverin wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 alone wrote:
[quote]
Because of endless faith blizz keeps on fucking up, how can u even compare pre BW or first OSL to now? Times were totaly different, everyone was discovering starcraft and gaming. I can undrestand fuckups in Starcraft 1, its new game and things needs to be tested. I can even undrestand fuckups in SC2 beta, its sequel but new ppl try new ideas, they also approach casual gamers but for gods sake its more than 2 years since release now, amount of feedback they got from all the pro players and community is huge and they still keep on making same stupid mistakes, create same dumb type of units, "fix" things that do not need to be fixed and dont do anything about some other obvious stuff. How can u even have faith that after all the time they put into creating alpha, soon to be beta, that they will suddenly change things around.
edit: Im not saying that hots will be terrible terrible game but it doesnt rly look like improvement, more like simple addiotion to the game and we all expect more. If I were allowed I would input a mr. wonka meme pic. So tell me now how you are the best programmer ever, and make zero errors. On topic I like the ideals behind these new units but...they fall very short of the mark. the only one im looking forward to is mothership/oracle stuff How is me beeing programmer related to anyting I wrote there? I never said anything about bugs or other programming errors. Yeah, unfortunatey the community is dissatisfied with the substance and not the implementation. Blizzard has been pretty insulated concerning their vision and the desires of the players. Well there aren't very many communities in the gaming world that think their input is more valuable than the game designers'. The starcraft community has a certain sense of entitlement that says, "Yeah, you're making the game, and without you none of what i'm experiencing would be possible, and you are the sole reason that starcraft 2, and therefore the competitive starcraft 2 scene that I am a part of exists, but I hate you blizzard. You aren't listening to my ideas about how the game should work. You are a terrible company. Your product will spell the end of competitive gaming and you are to blame." I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about stupid things in the game that can be made better and more enjoyable for us... But really, we definitely need to remember that it's a game that we have logged countless hours into playing and watching. If you haven't enjoyed those hours then you're stupid for consuming the product. If you have, then bear that in mind when you are making really harsh accusations :| I want to see "Starcraft 2 as designed by community consensus" one day, just to observe how terrible it will be. Hahahaha. It would be so broken and patched daily. We probably wouldn't even have marines left. Probably just workers. EDIT: Oh, and the "make more cool stuff" is all game design is meant to be. Make cool things, balance them later. That's honestly the best approach. Else you make something balanced which is just 'ok' and the audience give less than 2 shits. Nukes are cool. I imagine they said "We're going to have nukes" rather than "We're going to have a super high damage AOE with a long cast time because that will balance terran better." Examples of cool stuff in SC2: Warp-mechanism. coolness: units showing up like in movies. problems, removes any sort of strategic positioning, defender's advantage, forcess all-ins, not applicable to RTS genre. Colossi. coolness: war of the worlds thing, cliff-walking. problems: 1A, deathball unit. Reaper. coolness: cliff jump, grenades. problems: immensely op or completely useless. Viking. coolness: transformation. problems: no speed (can't be made faster since it would be op harrass unit) Roach. coolness: burrow, regen. problems: became just a massable 1a unit. Thor. coolness: epic robot unit. problems: can't be microed, 1A. These are just from top of my head, I'm sure there are more problems. Reaver was cool Defiler was cool Carrier was cool Oh, many of the BW new units were pretty cool and really enhanced the game play (lurker, dt, corsair, medic, valkyrie), in my opinion. Hope HOTS will also enhance SC2's gameplay. I accept that Carrier is cool. But reavers and defilers are not cool for average players. They're definitely cool for hardcores gamers who know and understand what these units capable of. You need to be topnotch to make something out of them. Compare them to colossi and infestor :/
you dont need to be topnotch to use them, just competent.
low level players are low level because they're bad, there is absolutely no reason to cater for them. you can make everything super easy and they'll still be low level since everyone has even playing field. making things harder makes no difference to them while it rewards those who are good and widens the gap between good players and bad players, which is good.
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EPT
