This is what a viable, competitive game looks like.
The only reason why so many people quit starcraft 2 is because it's too hard to be good for them. Meanwhile there is League of Legends, where it is hard to NOT be good. Starcraft 2 is a game you play alone, so if you lose it's YOUR mistake. In league of legends it's the mistake of your teammates .
Another note is that starcraft 2 is watchable for people that don't know the game. Meanwhile League of Legends is only watchable if you know the game. A very good esport title, isn't it?
The only reason why so many people quit starcraft 2 is because it's too hard to be good for them. Meanwhile there is League of Legends, where it is hard to NOT be good. Starcraft 2 is a game you play alone, so if you lose it's YOUR mistake. In league of legends it's the mistake of your teammates .
Another note is that starcraft 2 is watchable for people that don't know the game. Meanwhile League of Legends is only watchable if you know the game. A very good esport title, isn't it?
Yeah really, I have some IRL friends who play LOL and they just aren't manly enough to handle losing/failing horribly @ SC2. I say screw them, let them enjoy their lil childish-girly-hand-holding-team MOBAs. SC2 is for true, hairy, beer drinking, dick jamming men.
So Dustin, Starcraft isn't a competitive game based on viewer numbers? So what if LoL numbers piss over Starcraft, it's a totally different game, for teams (the social aspect imo keeps a lot of people playing)
On August 15 2012 16:45 Dustin_Butthead wrote: As Idra famously put it: "It's a shit game."
The only reason they can mention SC2 in the same sentence as "competitive" is due to the afterglow of BW. Otherwise, it's just another casual game. But go on, put "competitive" at the end to make more money Blizzard.
As for the game design, popularity and ultimately, the viability as an "e-sport". I give you these graphs:
From xFire stats. Yes, I knew this game would flop so I kept a link to THIS for future reference. The game lost over 90% of players over a period of 2 years. So the game is old and was bound to lose player numbers I hear the screaming fanboys say. No, if the game were truely compelling and not something you casually play after a party with drunk friends, the graph would look like this:
This is what a viable, competitive game looks like.
But if it's a forgettable casual game you finish once and put in the dust bin or fire up once in awhile to admire the destructable rocks, then the above SC2 graph makes sense.
Let's see: 1) League of Legends is free to play, Starcraft 2 isn't. 2) SC2 depends on personal skill, not on combined skill 3) SC2 is very, very punishing: the smallest mistake can and generally will cost you the game
And most importantly: 4) League of Legends is a casual game, Starcraft 2 isn't. This means that League of Legends is easy (you control a single unit), while Starcraft 2 isn't (you control up to 200 supply of very different units).
Hardcore games always lose a large part of their playerbase after a few years, but there's always going to be a very dedicated community playing the game.
Besides, online tournaments still attract a lot of viewers.
This is what a viable, competitive game looks like.
Starcraft 2 is a game you play alone, so if you lose it's YOUR mistake. In league of legends it's the mistake of your teammates
i heard starcraft 2 have team game? why don't play them? i don't think this is the reason for sc2 being less popular, it's more due to the fact that is boring...because all units have direct combat damage, no serious splash damage no serious aoe damage, these are the things, that make a game fun, when you see an units that with one shoot can blow other 5 units...
Please take a look at a starcraft 2 WOL battle report:
It's the same boring 1a as in the HOTS TvP battle report. Now ask yourself: is sc2 now played like in the battle report? No, it isn't.
I understand that it looks so damn boring, especially the warhound. But let's wait. Blizzard is actually listening more to us then we think. I know they made some bad decisions, but their goal is still to create an esports title.
This is what a viable, competitive game looks like.
Starcraft 2 is a game you play alone, so if you lose it's YOUR mistake. In league of legends it's the mistake of your teammates
i heard starcraft 2 have team game? why don't play them? i don't think this is the reason for sc2 being less popular, it's more due to the fact that is boring...because all units have direct combat damage, no serious splash damage no serious aoe damage, these are the things, that make a game fun, when you see an units that with one shoot can blow other 5 units...
What a random reason, especially when people think splash is already too dominant in SC2.
No, the real reason is that RTS games are just not as popular, especially to more casual players. It has nothing to do with the game being "boring" due to some arbitrary mechanic you yourself happen to dislike, and then try to apply to the entire playerbase.
This is what a viable, competitive game looks like.
Starcraft 2 is a game you play alone, so if you lose it's YOUR mistake. In league of legends it's the mistake of your teammates
i heard starcraft 2 have team game? why don't play them? i don't think this is the reason for sc2 being less popular, it's more due to the fact that is boring...because all units have direct combat damage, no serious splash damage no serious aoe damage, these are the things, that make a game fun, when you see an units that with one shoot can blow other 5 units...
Starcraft 2 in teamgames isn't as fun as League of Legends. Face it dude, LoL is an easy game, and people play it because they lack the competitive spirit that sc2 requires. Starcraft 2 is a hard game. 99% of people can't take losses. So they play LoL, where their losses are not because of them, but because of their teammates.
because all units have direct combat damage, no serious splash damage no serious aoe damage, these are the things, that make a game fun, when you see an units that with one shoot can blow other 5 units...
You mean something like the baneling? Or the nuke? Or the collossus? Or the archon? Or the high templar? Or the infestor? Or the hellion?
I can't help but feel like the battle reports are SOOOOOOOOOOOO cheesey it's embarassing to watch. I literally have feelings of shame watching them they're so corny.
It was so bad. So painful to watch. Ahhhhhhhhhh. Gold League battle report... stop trying to showcase shit so hard blizzard.
Seriously protoss need some true air power, like a AoE tempest that has it's damage radius vary with its range (longer it shoots weaker the AoE) or buff the carrier and bring back the interceptor auto heal, make interceptors do 10x1 instead of 5x2 damage so it's better vs armor, protoss really needs an air force to deal with mech because warhounds and battle hellions are really mobile and really strong. Or just make tempests some sort of strategic support unit instead of the capital ship role it has, and bring back the carrier. Protoss need some TRUE air firepower, not gimmicky stuff like a 22 range flying roach.
I would also like to stick in that even if casuals wouldn't be afraid of the whole "1v1 competitiveness", ladder fear and the big learning curve; RTS games isn't something you just can play casually. If you don't play on a couple of days you will suck so hard the day you sit down to play. Everything will feel so off. Your micro will be off, your macro will slip, your fingers will feel slow as fuck etc. And a casual player won't sit down and play like 10-15 games per day. They will play maybe 5 games and get trashed anyway because 5 games per day isn't enough to improve and then they will log off because losing is boring.
But with MOBA and FPS games etc you can log in at any given time and just rape noobs no matter what. Also easier to get carried by others and blame others.
Dustin_Butthead is trolling, but he's right on one thing: the numbers don't lie. Sc2 just isn't as popular as it was a year ago, and if this new expansion doesn't make this game the next jesus then I expect it to be phased out by other competitors (such as LoL).
With the direction the new expansion is going, it's in my opinion going to be a trainwreck (ie: a repeat of D3, big play spike in the first month then huge downfall). They need to completely rework the whole game, go back to the roots of what made BW great. You don't need to have the exact same units as brood war, you just need their properties to be the same. So the units don't have to be replaced, just re-designed, and this is easy to do, anybody can do this in the map editor so there should be no excuse from the design team.
I think the best move for them is to release the beta asap (it should be playable by now), and see what the comunity reaction is.
Fun is subjective, but whoever thought it was a good idea to bring up LoL here must seriously reconsider the point they were trying to make. And SC2 is much more 'casual' than BW, but the entire 'casual - hardcore' debate is pointless anyway.
I think the mothership core itself isn't a bad idea, it just comes out too early right now. What IS needed for protoss is a way to actually defend you bases when you try to keep up on econ by taking an early 3rd base.
Terran can build and OC inside there main and reap the benefit of supply and scans/mules/supply drops, then can fly it over when the time is right OR just make a PF for a pretty safe early 3rd. Zerg can take a 3rd the same time as their natural and it's safe.
Protoss has had tough times on a LOT of maps because they don't have mechanics for good base defense when taking an early 3rd just to keep up with T or Z. Warp in storms used to do this, but they were too good at defending everything as well as offensive play. I'm not saying the mothership is the perfect answer, just that there is some issue here for toss that they are trying to address.
Drop play and muta's can not just punish an early 3rd from toss, but often set protoss on a downward spiral to defeat. How many times have you seen Mutas trap protoss at home while zerg takes the map, or roaches rush in and ignore the dps from the protoss army, snipe the toss 3rd while zerg already has their own 3rd saturated. Or terran dropping a 3rd or the main while pushing the natural or 3rd with their main army and crushing toss. When a protoss tries to punish a 3rd almost always has to be a 2 base all in.
Also take into account that when a protoss player looses workers he can only replace them 1 at a time per nexus, yes they have crono, but when you kill a bunch of scv's the terran's income is supplemented with mules until they can replace the workers. Zerg can just produce a ton of workers at once, and has burrow as a way to keep them alive (in some harass situations). Probes just die, and the protoss just has no way to get income, which is a tough when you think of the unit costs for protoss.
In a good post above pvp was also talked about in relation to 4 gate. With warp being nerfed over and over because it removes all defenders advantage. On top of FF's early game power. What I think would be great for protoss is if normal gateways had faster production (only slightly) and warp just gave you the option to warp in at a slight production rate loss. At least there would be some interesting decisions for protoss players to make, and a wider variety of both play styles and builds for protoss resulting from this.
What is most disheartening though is how a lot of core game play issues for all the races remain unaddressed after 2 years of balancing. Things like terrans few late game options and very difficult transitions. Zerg has catch all units like infestors and broodlords,or the strength of mass muta play, while hydras, overseers, and corruptors are just boring single purpose units. Zergs almost exponential macro potential has always been a huge issue, how do you make zerg not just die or get impossibly far behind from early pressure, yet not let them get a free ride into the late game with full saturation pumping out infestor BL?
All the races have some design issues that I feel have just gotten band aid fixes, some several times over. Yet here we are with a lot of the core problems that were obvious to many in WOL beta.
I have serious doubts as to balance and good game play being achieved when all these CRAZY new units and abilities enter the game, especially when I look at how the last 2 years have gone. Some of the things that have come out of Browder's mouth in interviews shows he is very clueless about issues that have depth to them in Starcraft. I'd like to close by taking a minute to remind you of some of the boneheaded things we've seen in Sc2.
Reapers get speed upgrade nerfed (requires factory) because it was too good in TEAM games, and was never seen again.
We have new kinds of destructible rocks, that make more rocks when you kill them. When everyone has always hated those damn rocks.
Look at the maps blizzard makes...... even when they take maps from tourneys, they add destructible rocks to them.... Remember how much fun lost temple was, desert oasis, blistering sands, steps of war, and kulas ravine (BTW almost of all of the team maps are still shit to this day!) Remember how long it took to get them to change just 1 map.
In an interview only a few months ago, Browder says he was completely unaware that the mothership/vortex was even an issue in pvz. Seriously?
How about warp gate getting nerfed to "fix pvp", and it changed pvz more than pvp. Paving the way for the stephano play style.
Roach range got increased because of QXC's 5 rax reaper build in TvZ, which completely changed ZvP.
Queens ground range was increased to help deal with hellions in ZvT, even though it wasn't even an issue, and it completely nullified early zealot pressure in ZvP.
How many entire SEASONS did hackers stay in GM?
Here's another recent interview that had a few facepalm moments for me
How many tournaments have we seen messed up by Battlenet issues? I lost count a while ago, the community doesn't even fuss about it anymore BECAUSE WE'VE BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO IT. How sad is that? How many times have they patched the game right before a major event? Why isn't there any kind of special system for running major events with companies that Blizzard has partnered with in Esports? A "battlenet in a box" type of closed server perhaps with special tournament clients. HOTS is a perfect time to creates something like this, it's been a major issue for a years now. I honestly believe that they just don't give a shit about Esports, and they just lie constantly, and say they do. There only interest is money. There is no passion.
Also, they recently put out a help wanted for their balance team. Diamond an up random players o.O
I just don't have faith anymore in this stuff to get worked out. Short of them getting really really lucky, the game play and balance is going to be a huge mess for a long time. If people are wondering why so many are so critical of Blizzard, just look at their track record with WOL.
On August 15 2012 17:44 Fluid wrote: Dustin_Butthead is trolling, but he's right on one thing: the numbers don't lie. Sc2 just isn't as popular as it was a year ago, and if this new expansion doesn't make this game the next jesus then I expect it to be phased out by other competitors (such as LoL).
With the direction the new expansion is going, it's in my opinion going to be a trainwreck (ie: a repeat of D3, big play spike in the first month then huge downfall). They need to completely rework the whole game, go back to the roots of what made BW great. You don't need to have the exact same units as brood war, you just need their properties to be the same. So the units don't have to be replaced, just re-designed, and this is easy to do, anybody can do this in the map editor so there should be no excuse from the design team.
I think the best move for them is to release the beta asap (it should be playable by now), and see what the comunity reaction is.
Why do you think copying BW would be any more successful? Its not a matter of game flow and how certain mechanics work differently in BW and SC2. Introducing muta stacking and more positional mech play isn't going to make the casuals flock to this game. BW was never popular with casuals outside Korea, and even there it was just a huge coincidence.
Its about a casual game vs a hardcore one. MOBAs are popular for the same reason a game like WoW is popular, its easy and rewarding even for the most casual players.
On August 15 2012 16:55 Wombat_NI wrote: So Dustin, Starcraft isn't a competitive game based on viewer numbers? So what if LoL numbers piss over Starcraft, it's a totally different game, for teams (the social aspect imo keeps a lot of people playing)
LOL (pun intended), already the excuses flow. "SC2 is too hard" and "LoL is F2P." I think not playing a game you paid for makes it worse.
Look, I want SC2 to regain the old glory of BW but as long as Mr. Dustin idiot face keeps making the same mistakes he did for WoL, as demonstrated in the new unit designs, HoTS will face the same decline. That's all I'm saying. I put those graphs in to show everyone the cold hard facts.
Forget game balance, I think that's too far out of reach for Dustin Beaver. At least make the units make sense FFS. Flying medics that block your view and magically heal from the air? Pheonixes that can lift units into the air but for some reason gently put them back down? Banelings, fungals and infested terrans that are hard to distinguish and all blend together on 480p streams? It's like WTF everytime I see it and destroys immersion, Come on... it's like he's looking for gimmicky designs left and right. Now HoTS has the same design philosophy that defies all sensible logic in the quest for what that idiot thinks is COOOOOOL. I swear the guy was dropped on his head or something.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V13oi.jpg)
.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/X2G0Y.jpg)
