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On August 09 2012 17:39 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:35 Topdoller wrote:On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time  Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have. Everybody makes mistakes its part of life, i just think tweaking the Raven at this stage could disrupt the PvT match up a lot more than fix the supposed issues in TvZ forcing the results to tip in Terrans favour. Explain pls. All raven usage in TvP I seen is in 1-1-1. Feedback shuts it down very well after that.
Well you cant Feedback if you have just been EMPed or sniped and the best Terrans usually deal with Templars without much trouble. The changes to Raven could see the HSM being used against Protoss a lot more often.
The Raven is such an underused unit no one really knows do they
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On August 09 2012 11:13 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 11:10 Demorase wrote:On August 09 2012 10:41 TheDwf wrote:
Scans do not cost any minerals, you just get those minerals later. Lol wut? using a scan=losing a mule=losing minerals=costing minerals. Absolutely not. The 270 minerals you would have harvested in the 90 seconds after your scan are still in the mineral fields, you did not “lose” them. You will simply get them later.
So why do you build more then the initial 6 workers? Over all they also only help you to get minerals earlier. Scanning is basically like sending a worker to scout. It has a opportunity cost.
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On August 09 2012 17:45 Sandermatt wrote:
Does the creep spread at the same speed? Or does it need the same time to reach maximal distance (effectively reducing the spee of creep spread by 20 percent).
same speed just the max distance and the vision are changed
EDIT: Also its not a 36% nerf guys because when you plant a new tumor you already have creep on the backside so that tumor is not spreading in all directions its like a half circle, and also it won't matter that much because currently you are using multiple tumors anyway so when the cooldown on the tumor finishes you will have the creep at max point to plant a new tumor
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On August 09 2012 17:35 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have. Everybody makes mistakes its part of life, i just think tweaking the Raven at this stage could disrupt the PvT match up a lot more than fix the supposed issues in TvZ forcing the results to tip in Terrans favour.
Making mistakes is perfectly fine, refusing to accept you made a mistake and trying to cover it up with even more screw-ups is not. Which is the approach Blizz has been taking in those past 5-8 years when it comes to balance in their games.
They never listen to their players and do their thing thinking they know better, that's the biggest problem.
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On August 09 2012 17:39 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:35 Topdoller wrote:On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have. Everybody makes mistakes its part of life, i just think tweaking the Raven at this stage could disrupt the PvT match up a lot more than fix the supposed issues in TvZ forcing the results to tip in Terrans favour. Explain pls. All raven usage in TvP I seen is in 1-1-1. Feedback shuts it down very well after that.
sure. feedback does shut down all casters, including the ghost, thats a prime reason why the HT always moved so slowly. Feedback is a wayyyy powerful spell. Unless you have HT's all over the place, Raven's movement speed is going to be an improvement for TvP, ravens (or even 1) = less useful observers = more MULES! PDD will still be more useful that the HSM, its a good start.
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On August 09 2012 17:46 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:39 pmp10 wrote:On August 09 2012 17:35 Topdoller wrote:On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have. Everybody makes mistakes its part of life, i just think tweaking the Raven at this stage could disrupt the PvT match up a lot more than fix the supposed issues in TvZ forcing the results to tip in Terrans favour. Explain pls. All raven usage in TvP I seen is in 1-1-1. Feedback shuts it down very well after that. Well you cant Feedback if you have just been EMPed or sniped and the best Terrans usually deal with Templars without much trouble. The changes to Raven could see the HSM being used against Protoss a lot more often. The Raven is such an underused unit no one really knows do they
If you played the tvp matchup just once at high master level, then you would know that emping HT's to 0 energy will almost never happen in big fights. The HT's WILL get the feedback off if they stay behind the protoss army. 1 full energy HT can feedback a big amount of ravens, don't forget that. The raven is underused with a reason. Terrans are damn known for using every unit possible, but ravens are just not viable in tvp.
The only thing ravens can be good for in tvp is PDD maybe, but then you must hope for a big stalkercount.
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On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:
Making mistakes is perfectly fine, refusing to accept you made a mistake and trying to cover it up with even more screw-ups is not. Which is the approach Blizz has been taking in those past 5-8 years when it comes to balance in their games.
They never listen to their players and do their thing thinking they know better, that's the biggest problem.
That's because their players are biased, whiny morons
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It does seem very odd that after the queen buff was added, with the intention of "wanting to help zerg spread creep better", that they would then nerf the tumour again for the exact opposite reason. Doesn't exactly create confidence in the balance department.
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On August 09 2012 17:47 XiWi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:45 Sandermatt wrote:
Does the creep spread at the same speed? Or does it need the same time to reach maximal distance (effectively reducing the spee of creep spread by 20 percent). same speed just the max distance and the vision are changed EDIT: Also its not a 36% nerf guys because when you plant a new tumor you already have creep on the backside so that tumor is not spreading in all directions its like a half circle, and also it won't matter that much because currently you are using multiple tumors anyway so when the cooldown on the tumor finishes you will have the creep at max point to plant a new tumor
A half circle with 80 percent radius is also reduced by 36 percent in area, but otherwise I agree.
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i like the raven changes, but i feel the zerg changes are too small, creep should also deteriorate faster.
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On August 09 2012 17:47 XiWi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:45 Sandermatt wrote:
Does the creep spread at the same speed? Or does it need the same time to reach maximal distance (effectively reducing the spee of creep spread by 20 percent). same speed just the max distance and the vision are changed EDIT: Also its not a 36% nerf guys because when you plant a new tumor you already have creep on the backside so that tumor is not spreading in all directions its like a half circle, and also it won't matter that much because currently you are using multiple tumors anyway so when the cooldown on the tumor finishes you will have the creep at max point to plant a new tumor
it doesn't matter its not a full circle and if the creep is already on the backside or that spread is more like a arc. It is still 36% mathematically!
It matters even with multiple tumors because even though multiple tumors increases the SPEED of creep spread within overlapping areas, the nerf still affects the MAX. spread distance.
While playing the game, you might not see the difference but you can try benchmarking how far the creep spread goes post-pre patch, within a certain time frame.
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On August 09 2012 17:52 Shaytan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:
Making mistakes is perfectly fine, refusing to accept you made a mistake and trying to cover it up with even more screw-ups is not. Which is the approach Blizz has been taking in those past 5-8 years when it comes to balance in their games.
They never listen to their players and do their thing thinking they know better, that's the biggest problem. That's because their players are biased, whiny morons
Which is why you look for feedback at the pro level...durrr
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It sounds like the creep change makes it significantly slower to push one direction, but doesn't have any affect with smaller numbers of active tumors. Does that mean it's not better to spread creep in multiple directions at once to maximize total creep spread?
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liking the changes
creepspread slightly worse.
ravens slightly easier to use.
1 missile =1 dead infestor (cant outrun).
not to speak of the potential devastation vs clumped units.
Why TvZ is most scewed now is that we just had a major change which
makes terrans have to think of new build orders.
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As a Protoss at a terribly low level these changes will not have any Iimpact on me, so well done Blizzard trying to make small changes that really only has an effect upon the highest levels when the rest of the game is only imbalanced by skill levels and lack of scouting information.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 09 2012 18:05 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:52 Shaytan wrote:On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:
Making mistakes is perfectly fine, refusing to accept you made a mistake and trying to cover it up with even more screw-ups is not. Which is the approach Blizz has been taking in those past 5-8 years when it comes to balance in their games.
They never listen to their players and do their thing thinking they know better, that's the biggest problem. That's because their players are biased, whiny morons Which is why you look for feedback at the pro level...durrr
IThere's still mass bias at pro level.
I'm really happy with the raven changes as I really do love using and having the unit in all three matchups but it was just so damned slow before.
I'm glad creep spread is getting a slight nerf, ever since the queen buff creep has been spreading far, far too fast due to the amount of tumors people have been getting.
Was it effort yesterday who had 17 active tumors at a time?
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On August 09 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote:
It sounds like the creep change makes it significantly slower to push one direction, but doesn't have any affect with smaller numbers of active tumors. Does that mean it's not better to spread creep in multiple directions at once to maximize total creep spread?
As I see it, it means rather that it's best to spread into as many directions as possible, since 1 tumor does the same job as 2+.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
So it seems like the Creep changes are not a nerf to single creep tumour spreading (because you wouldn't hit the maximum range of the tumour while spreading) but to mass tumour spreading in high concentration (because with tumours bunched together the creep spreads faster and hits its now lowered maximum before the next cycle), is that the correct way of putting this?
If so, that seems pretty genius because normal creep spread, or even creep spread over many directions is not affected, but just huge one directional creep spread is nerfed, which seemed to be the problem.
And the Raven buff is just awesome, even if it makes very little practical difference Ravens should just be used more and now they will at least a bit.
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Great changes. As a random player I would love to see both.
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On August 09 2012 17:34 ncsix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 16:50 submarine wrote:
To the creep change: A lot of you do not understand what the creep change actually does. If you look at the picture:
You can see that the actual creep spread done by a single tumor is not affected! Just the radius of the area, where the next active tumor can be placed, and the vision range is nerfed. If you spread creep towards your third with a single tumor and always place the next tumor when the cooldown is ready, the actual creep spread rate should not be affected by the change at all. A single tumor will not spread creep beyond the range of 8 in the cooldown time.
However, the change will make spreading creep over ramps a lot more difficult. You may need to place a few extra tumors closer to the obstacles to make the step over them. Also the rate of spread if you use several tumors in one direction will be reduced. I did not test this but it seems that more then two tumors will no longer increase the creep spread rate now, because two tumors should be enough to spread the creep to range 8 in the cooldown time.
Another small factor: Clearing creep will now also be a bit different because there will be more tumors in a certain area. Terrans may need to send bigger creep clearing squats to clear a certain area once they scan.
Overall i like the changes, but i don't think they will have a big effect on the game. Accurate creep spreading will now be a little bit more rewarding i guess, but thats about it. Sorry but I think you can't tell anything from the picture regarding creep change. the OP states vision + build + spread are all nerfed from 10 - 8. If we theoretically spread creep only single direction at the max possible distance, we would need 5 tumors to cover the same distance 4 would have prior to the coming patch. Which doesn't sound so bad if it were only a single direction. Ok, anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm whining about the coming nerf, but people say things like "oh its only a small change" but really its not. just as a +1 attack upgrade is a big difference in any match.
After testing it in the game it seems that i was wrong with the actual creep radius reduction. A single tumor will fill a circle with the radius of 8 with creep now. (I missed that tumor under the queens ass in the picture :D). Infact every tumor radius was reduced from 10 to 8.
But the other point still stands. Actual creep spread in one direction with just one tumor is not affected if you always place the new tumor at the soonest possible time. The actual rate of area covered with creep per time by one tumor seems to be still the same. The actual direction is rather random. But if you place the new active tumor always after the cooldown finishes the length covered is actually limited by the creep generated in in the cool down duration. This has not been altered as far as i looked into it. And a single tumor will not reach out to range 8 in the cooldown.
If you spread with multiple tumors in one direction the change does matter, because multiple tumors will fill up the 8 radius circle in under 15 second(duration of the cooldown). Ramps and gaps are also a bigger problem now. over all it may help just a little bit.
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EPT
