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On August 09 2012 16:29 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 13:02 ncsix wrote:Not sure about reducing the creep spread from 10 - 8, thats a 20% reduction on paper, but most players (even top level) don't spread tumors exactly at the max distance, so we're really talking about a significant reduction of creep spread. On top of that, increasing the Raven speed might increase raven usage which further reduces ZvT creep effectiveness. For average player level, this is a really big nerf for Z. and Taeja's been showing pro Ts don't need a balance check  . It's actually not 20%. Whenever you change the radius of something, you need to square it. (Just like queen's range change) So creep spread range is reduced by 20%, but the creep coverage is reduced by 36%.
You're right, technically its a 36% reduction at optimal coverage, thanks for the mathematical precision, whereas if the nerf was 9 it would be 19% reduction at optimal coverage. Thats a 1/3 or 1/4 difference, blizzard should really consider this carefully. I could accept a 19% reduction, if T genuinely believes creep spreads to quickly to their 4th base on some maps (although I except by the 4th base, a T should be well equipped to kill a couple of tumors without scan.), but this will tilt very much the PvZ matchup, where P easily gets observers and would further reduce the average creep spread. Where once, a zerg had to micro consistently to reach creep to the mid way point, now Z has to be perfect about the creep spread only to be less than the midway point and have that cleaned up quickly by Protoss.
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concerning the reduced creep radius: I watch pro zerg streams a lot (stephano, idra, vibe, spanishiwa, TLO being my faves) and very rarely do I see them actually build new creep tumors at the very edge of the creep. They spread creep so fast, they place the new ones at about 60-70% of the maximal distance from the old one. So I don't think that the 36% reduction is that bad. Sure, it might be more difficult to get your creep spread to your third for a certain timing, but that's about it. After that nothing really changes.
EDIT: come to think of it, there might even be a slight advantage here, as the radii are smaller, you need more creep tumors, so terrans who scan+stim+kill all the tumors have more tumors to kill now, giving the zerg a few more seconds to defend them (but I'm just fishing for the positive now  )
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On August 09 2012 16:56 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 16:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Lots of small changes over time makes an impact. And small changes in a game can also have an impact under the right circumstances.
One small change to the raven every 6 months will result in some change to the unit usage in about 2 more years. For now the circumstances this will effect are so rare that they will almost never happen in pro-level games. Also the changes seem to target the wrong skill level. Pro-gamers don't micro their ravens in TvZ - missiles have short range, use most of the energy and are fire-and-forget. Professional zerg players will not be significantly affected by the creep change as they have the mechanics to work around it. In-fact I think only lower level zergs on the ladder would be impacted by such a patch.
To say that progamers dont micro their ravens in TvZ is ridiculous. The higher speeds gives a higher chance of them getting out alive. In actual combat and in harassment. You seriously undervalue the movement speed changes. Just look at the move speed change of overlords.
I am not going to really say anything else to you though, since you dont have an actual argument to respond to. "Changes are small, therefore they should not make changes" isnt really valid for anything.
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On August 09 2012 16:45 Vanadiel wrote:
I actually like both change, however not in the same time. Since the Raven is buffed, I don't feel that creep must be nerfed, since you encourage Terran to use it, it will be way easier to clean it.
Not really, even with openings such as raven + 2x banshees which are kind of designed to force spores and gimp creep spread, the queens quite simply just shoo the banshees away and nothing happens really. The raven in it's nature is such an expensive unit(not only by cost, but opportunity cost of teching to it, and put the time into building it), that you need a very efficient force to kill the creep off when your raven is made.
I've yet to see a really standard and econ friendly way to kill the creep spread. All the terrans I've seen do it, are able to simply by doing an oddly timed "push"(like 5-8 rines) against a zerg that is being very greedy.
Personally I have my doubts about the raven change. There is a core issue with the raven, not a subtle one, so if Blizzard is going to make it into a staple unit, they need to change the core mechanic(such as HSM: increased cast range, make the missile slightly slower, reduce cost, reduce dmg, increase flight time).
The creep spread one I have my hopes on. It does sound like this will again hinder creep spread, but then again why not just revert the queen buff to get the same effect... I was fine with creep spread before, if a zerg went the mass queen strat(and zergs were doing it, just before the buff) aswell as a fast 3rd, it was a greedy build that could get punished. If you didn't punish it, you ended up with 50+% of the map creeped and you were screwed, which was fine, since you need to punish greedy play.
Edit: And I'm pretty sure this nerf isn't designed for the top pros, but rather against multiple queen openings and to make things a bit harder people below the top, such as foreign zergs. I mean TvZ is for some insanely strange reason relatively balanced(admittedly while I've not seen a standardized build, I feel the korean terrans are just so good at doing odd/goofy things to catch zergs offguard) but terrans below the top have been struggling for some time.
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I see 2-2 timing actually making sense now instead of just being a creep clean up timing....
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Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit
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The Raven is sadly underused. Perhaps this will bring it into mainstream builds.
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These kind of changes is what we need, small yet still impacting the game a bit. The new creep nerf can be countered slightly by having an overlord near the outer layer of creep, I believe? A new tumor's creep spread is slower than it's cooldown IIRC.
Confirm/Deny ?
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On August 09 2012 17:13 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I am not going to really say anything else to you though, since you dont have an actual argument to respond to. "Changes are small, therefore they should not make changes" isnt really valid for anything.
Yes it is - it is valid for small changes made so rarely they barley matter.
You either make big changes every x months hoping players and meta-game will adjust with time or you do small changes as often as necessary and risk that they'll need to be rescinded later.
And blizzard make small changes once in a blue moon.
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On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit
They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either.
If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time 
Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have.
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Nice changes. A slight buff to the HSM might be needed as well but for starters this can and will help terrans clean up the broodlord fleet with the help of a few ravens. Terrans anyway float so much gas after the 4th is taken so it should not be that hard to prepare for the zerg brood switch by getting a few techlab starports and upgrading ravens.
I am still amazed at the geniuses here who suggest reverting the queen buff. The fact that terran has less lategame options is the problem. Before the queen buff you could kill a zerg who was not paranoid about his defenses, while a paranoid zerg would fall behind economically. This did not mean that getting through to the late game was balanced, it's just that zergs usually got to the late game at a disadvantage.
Perhaps that's the small change that's needed for the ravens to be able to be split properly and not get fungaled before firing. Especially with the usage of some ghosts to make infestors run back (or emp them if they don't, or even bait the fungals on themselves) it offers a chance for great plays and viewing pleasure for us.
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This will be interesting!
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On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have.
Which rts games are balanced better than starcraft?
If they reverted the changes they would have the old metagame back (helion opening, tons of ghosts lategame). They made the patch to prevent this metagame, because they didn't like it.
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[QUOTE]On August 09 2012 16:50 submarine wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 09 2012 09:38 larse wrote:
To the creep change: A lot of you do not understand what the creep change actually does. If you look at the picture:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Zlt5S.jpg[/img]
You can see that the actual creep spread done by a single tumor is not affected! Just the radius of the area, where the next active tumor can be placed, and the vision range is nerfed. If you spread creep towards your third with a single tumor and always place the next tumor when the cooldown is ready, the actual creep spread rate should not be affected by the change at all. A single tumor will not spread creep beyond the range of 8 in the cooldown time.
However, the change will make spreading creep over ramps a lot more difficult. You may need to place a few extra tumors closer to the obstacles to make the step over them. Also the rate of spread if you use several tumors in one direction will be reduced. I did not test this but it seems that more then two tumors will no longer increase the creep spread rate now, because two tumors should be enough to spread the creep to range 8 in the cooldown time.
Another small factor: Clearing creep will now also be a bit different because there will be more tumors in a certain area. Terrans may need to send bigger creep clearing squats to clear a certain area once they scan.
Overall i like the changes, but i don't think they will have a big effect on the game. Accurate creep spreading will now be a little bit more rewarding i guess, but thats about it. [/QUOTE]
Sorry but I think you can't tell anything from the picture regarding creep change. the OP states vision + build + spread are all nerfed from 10 - 8.
If we theoretically spread creep only single direction at the max possible distance, we would need 5 tumors to cover the same distance 4 would have prior to the coming patch. Which doesn't sound so bad if it were only a single direction.
Ok, anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm whining about the coming nerf, but people say things like "oh its only a small change" but really its not. just as a +1 attack upgrade is a big difference in any match.
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On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have.
Everybody makes mistakes its part of life, i just think tweaking the Raven at this stage could disrupt the PvT match up a lot more than fix the supposed issues in TvZ forcing the results to tip in Terrans favour.
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Even though the raven buff makes sense to me, it still doesnt really adress ZvT balance issues.
The creep nerf does, but why do they always change the outcome, rather the SOURCE of the problem. Just revert the queen buff, and there'll be no problem with creep whatsoever.
If they really want to fix TvZ, revert the queen buff and nerf broodlord infestor
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On August 09 2012 17:19 OveRtheStarS wrote:
The Raven is sadly underused. Perhaps this will bring it into mainstream builds.
Lategame they will be used more, maybe. But in the midgame they will never be used. Why?
GAS and MEDIVACS. Before your 5th and 6th gas is running, you are tight on gas. Stim, combatshield, reactors, techlab, factory, tanks, siege upgrade, starport, medivacs, +1 +1 upgrades, armory. That's a huge amount of gas. If you want to make 1 raven, you spend 200 gas, that's 2 medivacs less, that's huge.
I am sure terrans would LOVE to use ravens in the midgame, but believe me, there is really a reason why we don't use them, and it's really not laziness.
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On August 09 2012 17:35 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have. Everybody makes mistakes its part of life, i just think tweaking the Raven at this stage could disrupt the PvT match up a lot more than fix the supposed issues in TvZ forcing the results to tip in Terrans favour.
Explain pls.
All raven usage in TvP I seen is in 1-1-1.
Feedback shuts it down very well after that.
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On August 09 2012 17:39 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 17:35 Topdoller wrote:On August 09 2012 17:24 Demorase wrote:On August 09 2012 17:16 Topdoller wrote:
Wht dont they simply take Queen range down to 4 and buff the Ghost snipe a little bit to help combat Broods instead of messing with mechanics which had no impact in the changes in the first place.
I got the impression the ravens arnt used vZ is because of Fungal with is certain death for this high gas unit They're not comfortable reverting any change back and basically admitting they made a mistake, which is what they're essentially doing with this patch anyway so yeah I don't know why either. If you've known Blizzard for a long time this doesn't come as a surprise that's how they roll, they usually screw up and then beat around the bush trying to fix it without admitting they were wrong in the first place, which usually in turn provokes even more screw-ups and so on untill the game is quite FUBAR, that's usually around that time they release the next expansions and then the whole cycle is back again in no time Seriously, Blizz does make great games, but they're very very terrible at balance. Especially when you consider the amount of ressources they have. Everybody makes mistakes its part of life, i just think tweaking the Raven at this stage could disrupt the PvT match up a lot more than fix the supposed issues in TvZ forcing the results to tip in Terrans favour. Explain pls. All raven usage in TvP I seen is in 1-1-1. Feedback shuts it down very well after that.
Pretty much where I was going with that too.
Protoss players have access to Feedback which counters the Raven far better than anything Terrans or Zerg have, and that's by design.
Sure the Terran could make Ghosts to also deal with the High Templar but then you're looking at an army that has an incredible amount of gas invested in heavy Raven use and Ghosts that can't be also invested in Vikings, Medivacs, or Marauders. So even in a super late game scenario where Raven usage could be factored in, you're still looking at an army that has to give up something in order to gain the benefits of the Raven. which could be easily countered by a unit that's already standard in every late game Protoss army.
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Does the creep spread at the same speed? Or does it need the same time to reach maximal distance (effectively reducing the spee of creep spread by 20 percent).
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EPT
