EPTaw maaaaan!
Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 29
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alhazrel
98 Posts
aw maaaaan! | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
They are so insignificant that they will not affect balance in any significant manner - there is simply no reason to bother with them. There either is a balance problem and those changes are insufficient or there is none and they may only upset the existing situation. Playing middle-road will only make the design worse. Unless of course they meant as psychological reinforcement in which case they should absolutely not happen. The "shout enough and you will be herd" attitude dose not need strengthening in this community. Balancing by meta-game is doing enough harm already. The worst thing that can happen after such change is that map-pool will change, win-rates become equal and blizzard perceives "balancing" success just like they did with phoenix range upgrade. | ||
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mijellin
China740 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:20 pmp10 wrote: The more I think about it the less I like those changes. They are so insignificant that they will not affect balance in any significant manner - there is simply no reason to bother with them. There either is a balance problem and those changes are insufficient or there is none and they may only upset the existing situation. Playing middle-road will only make the design worse. Unless of course they meant as psychological reinforcement in which case they should absolutely not happen. The "shout enough and you will be herd" attitude dose not need strengthening in this community. Balancing by meta-game is doing enough harm already. The worst thing that can happen after such change is that map-pool will change, win-rates become equal and blizzard perceives "balancing" success just like they did with phoenix range upgrade. The changes are purposefully small enough to have zero effect on almost all players. | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:23 mijellin wrote: The changes are purposefully small enough to have zero effect on almost all players. Then they are unnecessary and should not be implemented. No point in 'muddying the water'. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
Honestly blizzard needs to remove these counter-intuitive stuffs which defeats the purpose of adding MBS. At least no MBS is easier to balance -_- | ||
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NHY
1013 Posts
On August 09 2012 13:02 ncsix wrote: Not sure about reducing the creep spread from 10 - 8, thats a 20% reduction on paper, but most players (even top level) don't spread tumors exactly at the max distance, so we're really talking about a significant reduction of creep spread. On top of that, increasing the Raven speed might increase raven usage which further reduces ZvT creep effectiveness. For average player level, this is a really big nerf for Z. and Taeja's been showing pro Ts don't need a balance check  . It's actually not 20%. Whenever you change the radius of something, you need to square it. (Just like queen's range change) So creep spread range is reduced by 20%, but the creep coverage is reduced by 36%. | ||
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Kyrao
United States161 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:28 pmp10 wrote: Then they are unnecessary and should not be implemented. No point in 'muddying the water'. Lots of small changes over time makes an impact. And small changes in a game can also have an impact under the right circumstances. Creep spread is really really fast with the current zerg style, and this helps slow it down a touch. I agree with it. Raven changes I am kinda torn on. Ravens die quickly, but they also can deal a ton of damage/prevent a ton of dmg... | ||
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k3n705
Canada134 Posts
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nenshoua
Brazil27 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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KuKri
Germany168 Posts
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ReboundEU
508 Posts
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:38 larse wrote: OK. Most people that advocate a drastic buff to raven's seeker missile forget the point that seeker missile is a very very different spell from other AOE damage spells. The fundamental difference is that seeker missile is an instant damage while the other two main AOE damage spells--fungal growth and storm--do their damage over 4 seconds. Because they are doing damage over 4 seconds, their "DPS" is much much lower than instant damage spell such as seeker missile and EMP. For example, fungal growth's damage is 30 for 4 seconds, so its DPS is 7.5 for each unit. Storm's damage is 80 for 4 seconds, so its DPS is 20 for each unit. But because seeker missile does an instant 100 damage, its DPS is 100 for the central units, 75 for more closed units, and 50 for less closed units. So its DPS is much much higher than storm and fungal. This is why when Blizzard designs it, there are so many requirements for this spell--research, 125 energy cost, and a very slow projectile. If the seeker missile's energy cost is reduce to 100, or its research is removed, it will be very very OP. The reasonable buffs for seeker missile should be focused on the costs of getting seeker missile, but not some direct buffs. Therefore, some reasonable buffs for seeker missile should be: 1. Raven energy research cost reduced to 100/100, down from 150/150. Research time reduced to 80, down from 110. (Infestor's energy research time is 80) 2. Durable Materials reserach removed. The duration of Auto-Turrets and Point Defense Drones is now 240 seconds (up from 180 seconds), and the duration of the Seeker Missile is now 20 Seconds (up from 15 seconds). The DPS (Damage[points]/Time[s]) of something that happens in just one moment in time is infinity. And you forget in your talk that unlike fungal or storm HSM has a smaller range and a travel time. Ravens build for HSM are a lot more "hit or miss" then infestors. A single HSM is a far greater investment in time, energy and recources then a single fungal and even if it hits it is not necessarily more damaging to a zerg army then a well placed fungal is to a terran army. And it is a lot less likely that you hit that one HSM. Even with this buff to ravens HSM are still bad if you look at the time and resources needed to get them. Something else that is very stupid is that once again the infestor is the counter, but that is another discussion. I have a really great analogy: Ravens with HSM are a lot like banelings. They are more or less suicide units. They can be focused down with fungal or siegetanks, and spreading or running is the way to avoid damage once they can no longer be focused down. To the creep change: A lot of you do not understand what the creep change actually does. If you look at the picture: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Zlt5S.jpg) You can see that the actual creep spread done by a single tumor is not affected! Just the radius of the area, where the next active tumor can be placed, and the vision range is nerfed. If you spread creep towards your third with a single tumor and always place the next tumor when the cooldown is ready, the actual creep spread rate should not be affected by the change at all. A single tumor will not spread creep beyond the range of 8 in the cooldown time. However, the change will make spreading creep over ramps a lot more difficult. You may need to place a few extra tumors closer to the obstacles to make the step over them. Also the rate of spread if you use several tumors in one direction will be reduced. I did not test this but it seems that more then two tumors will no longer increase the creep spread rate now, because two tumors should be enough to spread the creep to range 8 in the cooldown time. Another small factor: Clearing creep will now also be a bit different because there will be more tumors in a certain area. Terrans may need to send bigger creep clearing squats to clear a certain area once they scan. Overall i like the changes, but i don't think they will have a big effect on the game. Accurate creep spreading will now be a little bit more rewarding i guess, but thats about it. | ||
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DoNuTs84
Denmark24 Posts
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KonohaFlash
Canada1590 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:50 DoNuTs84 wrote: Why not delete chose changes and tell people(Terrans) to go watch some Liquid.Taeja games vs zerg instead ... Why not delete the queen change and tell people(zergs) to go watch some MVP. DongRaeGu games vs Terran instead ... Seriously, all this change does is make it easier for terran's to use their early to midgame advantages at lower levels. On a larger scale, we have no idea. We'll have to see if these changes are even final, as well as what the pros can do with these newfound changes. | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:33 TheRabidDeer wrote: Lots of small changes over time makes an impact. And small changes in a game can also have an impact under the right circumstances. One small change to the raven every 6 months will result in some change to the unit usage in about 2 more years. For now the circumstances this will effect are so rare that they will almost never happen in pro-level games. Also the changes seem to target the wrong skill level. Pro-gamers don't micro their ravens in TvZ - missiles have short range, use most of the energy and are fire-and-forget. Professional zerg players will not be significantly affected by the creep change as they have the mechanics to work around it. In-fact I think only lower level zergs on the ladder would be impacted by such a patch. | ||
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SedativeDev
Slovenia316 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:55 KonohaFlash wrote: Why not delete the queen change and tell people(zergs) to go watch some MVP. DongRaeGu games vs Terran instead ... Seriously, all this change does is make it easier for terran's to use their early to midgame advantages at lower levels. Good answer. This is a tiny nerf to zerg yet they managed to whine a lot about it... | ||
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KuKri
Germany168 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:50 DoNuTs84 wrote: Why not delete chose changes and tell people(Terrans) to go watch some Liquid.Taeja games vs zerg instead ... Gumiho is looking just as strong and he even has a unique and different style from Taeja. There are ways to own the Zergs, yet it appears only Taeja and Gumiho are succeeding in finding new strategies. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:50 DoNuTs84 wrote: Why not delete chose changes and tell people(Terrans) to go watch some Liquid.Taeja games vs zerg instead ... You know they buffed Queen range and overlord speed just after DRG won a GSL, right ? | ||
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