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On August 07 2012 07:05 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 07:03 radscorpion9 wrote:On August 07 2012 06:35 Shiori wrote:On August 07 2012 06:21 tskarzyn wrote:
The fact that you compare playing video games to something as integral to modern day living as electricity is nuts. Someone says you should try giving up video games and TV for a week and you say "I might as well go live in the woods"?
What about hanging out with friends? Or reading a good book? Or spending extra time on self-improvement (academics, work, fitness, etc...).
wow... You're missing the point. God, I hate when people do this. The point of an analogy isn't that something is identical to something else. It's that it's the same in the way that matters for the sake of comparison. You're asking people to give up something that they basically have done on a daily basis for a long period of time. You're acting like feeling some discomfort from doing this is evidence of an addiction. It isn't. What if I really like reading, and I've traditionally read for 3 hours a night, but then you tell me to start attending dance class instead? If I feel annoyed, frustrated, or miss reading, that doesn't mean anything other than that a) I like reading more than dance class and b) I'm used to reading, not dance class. I like how you slip "work" into "self-improvement." No idea how that works. Unless you're working at a career that aligns well with your interests and passions, most work is actually just there to sustain you until your larger goals are realized. I'm pretty sure I'm not thinking about self-improvement when I work to fund my tuition. I'm thinking about not being in debt, not development of my character. When I play Starcraft with the aim of being better at the game, I'm improving myself by becoming better at the game. It's annoying that people who know they have no ground to stand on grossly and obviously misinterpret a post in order for it to be easier to dismiss. I didn't say "might as well go live in the woods." I said your reasoning would work similarly if applied to electricity. You offer no evidence for why wanting to do something and feeling displaced when you stop doing is actually evidence of addiction. And actually, you DO know it is an addiction without trying to stop. It's very easy to tell by introspection and cognitive therapy whether something is an addiction or just a habit. It's all about the motivation, not the time you put into something. To be honest I think you're misunderstanding him. Fundamentally all he's saying is that people should see whether they're even capable of doing it. He never said that being uncomfortable was a sign of addiction, I re-read his post and didn't read him saying that anywhere. It would be just like someone who smokes and is trying to stop, its not just going to be uncomfortable, its going to be really really difficult and there will be all sorts of cravings; and if someone notices that being the case then its a useful indicator. I actually read a post by someone on TL before SC2 was even in beta stage, talking about how his whole body was shaking and he couldn't stop thinking about playing SC2. If they were to try this test while SC2 was out they'd probably find out they have a harder time stopping themselves than those addicted to nicotine. So by your analogy if you tried to live without electricity, you would probably be quite uncomfortable, but it wouldn't be something where you feel withdrawal symptoms (i.e. it could basically be a camping trip, or staying at home reading or going out with friends). But anyways I think a better indicator should simply be to follow the definition for what addiction is, kind of like what you wrote. If it actually gets in the way of other important things in your life, and stops you from doing them because you can't stop playing (i.e. hygiene, eating well, doing your school work, maintaining relationships - all of which should be integral to the well-being of a person except maybe the last one if they are highly introverted) then it is an addiction. But really either method should work. If you feel illogical cravings for Sc2 all the time (beyond the usual "I'd really like to play a game now to unwind" that could periodically arise) then you might have a problem. Smokers can realize they're addicted when they stop wanting to have a smoke to relax and start craving them all the time and needing a smoke to relax. I don't get the impression that most gamers are the same way.
One thing I wanted to point out is that I don't think it necessarily has to be an illogical craving. Video games are a form of escapist entertainment, and they can be used to entertain as well as to avoid facing certain negative realities - and in such a way, even if you may not see them as a typical addiction, they are nevertheless as bad as using alcohol to drown away your sorrows. If you're not actually facing the problem, then things will continue to be negative while you do something that helps you avoid taking action to fix that - which goes back to the original definition of addiction (continuing to use a substance or do something even though there are adverse real-life consequences) without necessarily requiring "cravings".
I think there can be a fine line from that perspective, and I just thought it would be good to point that out. But its pretty tangential to this discussion. I agree that saying most gamers can't stop themselves is kind of unfounded and probably excessive, but it would nevertheless be good to be aware of how gaming can be abused without necessarily taking a truly addictive form.
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I would like to see a poll of pro gamers and the wannabe pros to see if they, themselves, think they have an addiction to games. It would look something like this:
Poll: My relationships with video games is such that:Gaming is only one of many things I do in my free time (19) 49% After responsibilities, all free time goes to games (11) 28% Work/school suffers because of it (7) 18% Lost relationships due to it (1) 3% Play significantly more than most, not sure if addicted (1) 3% 39 total votes Your vote: My relationships with video games is such that: (Vote): Lost relationships due to it
(Vote): Work/school suffers because of it
(Vote): Play significantly more than most, not sure if addicted
(Vote): After responsibilities, all free time goes to games
(Vote): Gaming is only one of many things I do in my free time
Poll: Of those self-proclaimed addicts:I am specifically addicted to one game (7) 50% I am addicted to all games (5) 36% I am addicted to a genre of games (RPG, FPS, MOBA, RTS, MMO, etc.) (2) 14% 14 total votes Your vote: Of those self-proclaimed addicts: (Vote): I am addicted to all games
(Vote): I am addicted to a genre of games (RPG, FPS, MOBA, RTS, MMO, etc.)
(Vote): I am specifically addicted to one game
Poll: I believe I am addicted because:It can take my mind off of the real world. (12) 67% These games are just that good. (6) 33% 18 total votes Your vote: I believe I am addicted because: (Vote): These games are just that good.
(Vote): It can take my mind off of the real world.
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The choices are too narrow to really answer.
I spend a good chunk of them play games but they don't really affect my work/rl responsibility. FFXI did kind of rendered my first 2 year of college moot but I had no problem recover from that in last two years.
I enjoy RTS, JRPG, FPS and MMO but I'd rather do other stuff if I don't have a game on hand that I think worth playing.
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Article was quite eye-opening. While I do feel like I'm on the internet alot, I've never thought I might be addicted. Hmm.
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Just now Olympics is covering someone whose parents went bankrupt over training cost, how is that better than what pro-gamers do?
I think if you do something because you feel like no other choice, rather than have a specific goal (either get better, or out of enjoyment), you might have a problem. Like if you can't wait to play this game, you are actually in a good mind set, it's when you just do it without thinking you might be in trouble. I'm pretty sure all pro-gamers have a goal when they play, otherwise there is no way they achieve anything.
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I don't understand how a media company that feeds the couch-potato generation that is modern USA can possibly insult someone for playing lots of video games
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On August 07 2012 08:03 ragz_gt wrote:
The choices are too narrow to really answer.
True. I was just giving an example of a poll of professionals that I would like to see. I don't mean it to be taken seriously. If there were such a poll it should not be open for the public so that integrity of the data would be ensured.
But since it is an example poll, let's all vote on it and see what happens. :D
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On August 06 2012 20:04 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 19:41 yeint wrote:On August 06 2012 19:40 Rabiator wrote:On August 06 2012 19:37 yeint wrote:On August 06 2012 19:29 Rabiator wrote:On August 06 2012 19:06 Fencar wrote:There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan! Coaching, off the top of my head. You see pro gamers transition to coaching for various games a lot in my memory. Coaching and casting jobs are available IN A VERY VERY VERY LIMITED NUMBER. Thus you can NOT get a coaching/casting job for all progamers when their careers are over. Coaches and casters also keep their jobs for more years than a progamer is fit enough to be a progamer. You also need additional knowledge / talents as a coach / caster which only very few progamers will have. Its not the same for regular sports or any form of education. What the hell? Did you really say there isn't a VERY VERY VERY limited number of coaching and casting positions in regular sports? No I didnt ... those jobs are limited for ESPORTS ... since there arent any local teams, national championships and school training groups which need Starcraft coaches. And there are far fewer people who even attempt to go pro. Logically, there are just as many coaching/casting positions in SC2 as there are in, say, soccer. Relatively speaking, because the amount of soccer players is astronomically higher. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 19:42 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On August 06 2012 18:55 Rabiator wrote:On August 06 2012 17:47 FrosTByTe11 wrote:
I think for those saying that video games have nothing to contribute to life is quite false because like anything you do in life, you get something out of it. For example, in Day9's #100 daily, he talked a lot about the things he learned in life relative to his career playing Starcraft. If there is anything that separates a gaming addict and a competitive sports player, I think that video pretty much explain a lot about the differences between the two. There is no transition from progamer to any other job... Skills learned as a progamer will not help you in any other job ... contrary to regular sports or studying ... and I hope people will stop these useless comparisons. ...There is also no transition from professional athlete to any other job. You might say: "coach! commentator! they've earned enough to not need another job!" - but the exact same could apply to gaming, just on a smaller scale because it simply has a smaller scene. That said, what about the smaller sports, that don't get as much attention? Should those athletes also just give up and go? Now, I'm not saying "yeah everyone, go and drop out of school and try to become pros." The bottom line is that the great majority of these people, esports or regular sports, are doing something they love, doing it because they love to compete, and doing it because there also happens to be some incentives on the side. And that is the similarity that distinguishes between addiction and genuine positive pursuit, not the amount of money that you get paid. No ... as a football player you can also "transition into" school teacher (for sports) which one friend of mine did. The general fitness of playing any "real sport" will also benefit you in physical jobs which have nothing to do with the sport itself or teaching it to others. For computer games that is not the case, since progamer =/= programmer and you dont have any special knowledge useful for anything else needed in life. The main problem isnt really the pros, because they are few in number, but rather the thousands of kids who waste their time dreaming about it and playing too much with their computer while they should actually be going out, meet other people and have fun in real life. They arent told that becoming an eSport pro has some severe downsides, because it doesnt help you with the 40-50 years after your progamer life (if you manage to pull that off).
You don't understand the point of my post. I readily agree that sports proportionally have a higher amount of jobs - "school teacher (for sports)" - that's called a [i]coachi/[i], which esports does have, but again, see my previous point about less popular sports, and the lack of a clear bright-line to decide when a hobby/passion is "foolhardy."
Regardless, future career prospects are wholly irrelevant. As the second half of my post pointed out:
Now, I'm not saying "yeah everyone, go and drop out of school and try to become pros." The bottom line is that the great majority of these people, esports or regular sports, are doing something they love, doing it because they love to compete, and doing it because there also happens to be some incentives on the side. And that is the similarity that distinguishes between addiction and genuine positive pursuit, not the amount of money that you get paid.
The original discussion was you attempting to criticize people for responding to the CNN piece with comparisons of SC/esports to sports. Your reasoning was that their comparisons of MKP or any other athlete to sports was silly since sports are much more "productive" and conducive to career prospects.
I'm pointing out that career success is irrelevant to the use of sports as a comparison, because people are using "sports comparisons" in this thread to debunk the idea that dedication to Starcraft/esports is mere "addiction" based on the passion that motivates people. Most young athletes aren't thinking of contracts and future job security, they're not 40 year olds, they're kids. They do what they do because they love it. Same with games. That is why it is silly to denigrate, many cases, such as MKP's, as cases of "addiction." I'll agree that there are extreme cases where people are totally addicted and harm themselves with their excess pursuit of games. But MKP is certainly not one of those.
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On August 07 2012 08:20 ridethecatbus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 08:03 ragz_gt wrote:
The choices are too narrow to really answer.
True. I was just giving an example of a poll of professionals that I would like to see. I don't mean it to be taken seriously. If there were such a poll it should not be open for the public so that integrity of the data would be ensured. But since it is an example poll, let's all vote on it and see what happens. :D
The questions are still completely terrible...
Question 1: I mostly play games in my free time, but I also read and watch TV shows/movies.
Question 2 and 3: Who would self-proclaim as an addict?
And how on earth can you even ask professionals if they're addicted? Playing is their job. Of course they play ridiculous amounts.
I had 2 weeks of vacation time, but not a lot of money to go anywhere, so I just relaxed and did the following:
1. Went to the movies twice.
2. Went out for beers with friends.
3. Watched the entirety of The Wire.
4. Played a shitton of SC2 and a shitton of MoP beta (probably about 8-12 hour sessions with food breaks)
5. Read two books.
6. Watched a bunch of movies at home with my wife.
By CNN standards, I'm a gaming addict.
But replace 4. with "Watched random shit on TV" and I'm a normal, well-rounded person.
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On August 07 2012 05:41 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 02:37 R3demption wrote:
I'm 21 years old. A pre Med student and a Starcraft 2 enthusiast. I'm home for the summer and parents wont let my brother and I hook up our computers because they believe we are "Addicted" to video games. I would say we honestly would like to play 2 hours a night and about 4 on the weekends. Is that an addiction? Dunno. But the whole thing has caused more issues in our household than if my brother and I were on meth or something... Just yesterday we had a recovery day from a huge argument we had last week about gaming.
My brother and I have... Jobs, girlfriends, a social life, a future and we both are going to school.
It's articles like these that fuel my parents war against my choice of entertainment.
The lack of understanding... No, the lack of effort to understand something that is different is sooo frustrating.
Until the FDA comes out and states that video games are entirely harmful to ones body (moreso than drinking, smoking, watching shit TV all day).... SHUT THE FUCK UP. All things in moderation, the Greeks knew that shit.... so this article is hundreds of years too late. You are an exception. Most gamers can't limit their playing. Still, you are clocking around 18 hours of sc2 a week? Do youreally have time for your gf and guy friends when you spend close to half a work week playing this game? For those naysayers who are convinced you aren't addicted, try going a week or two "unplugged". No SC2 videos, no forums, certainly no playing. And to make sure you don't just swap the cigarettes for the booze, go without TV or other games on top of that during the experiment. How are you feeling on day 2? How about day 7? At the end of the experiment, will you run to your computer to fire up a game or call a friend to hang out? Most of you will think "Fk this jerk, i don't have a problem. I just enjoy it. I CHOOSE to spend my free time playing, and I could CHOOSE to stop playing whenever the fk I want." You might want to prove to yourself it's true before you start damaging other areas of your life.
I have off days obviously. If my GF and I are going out, of course I don't have time to get in my 2 hours on Starcraft. Or if my buddies and I are catching a big game on TV. Of course I can supliment it with some SOTG podcast on my way to work the next morning on my i touch  . I can easily prioritize my life and put things in order of what I want to do first. Articles like this one basically say that me and a million other gamers can't prioritize. We are not "in control". What? Prove to me that gaming has physically addictive properties.
And if its a mental addiction, aren't all things we do repeatedly mental addictions? (Aka habits). Because when you involve the mind you deal with choice. Is this article saying I shouldn't have the power of choice?
I do admit that gaming is my form of free time entertainment. It's a habit. And if I quit suddenly and for no apparent reason, It would be weird. Because it's part of my life's routine.
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On August 07 2012 06:35 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:21 tskarzyn wrote:
The fact that you compare playing video games to something as integral to modern day living as electricity is nuts. Someone says you should try giving up video games and TV for a week and you say "I might as well go live in the woods"?
What about hanging out with friends? Or reading a good book? Or spending extra time on self-improvement (academics, work, fitness, etc...).
wow... You're missing the point. God, I hate when people do this. The point of an analogy isn't that something is identical to something else. It's that it's the same in the way that matters for the sake of comparison. You're asking people to give up something that they basically have done on a daily basis for a long period of time. You're acting like feeling some discomfort from doing this is evidence of an addiction. It isn't. What if I really like reading, and I've traditionally read for 3 hours a night, but then you tell me to start attending dance class instead? If I feel annoyed, frustrated, or miss reading, that doesn't mean anything other than that a) I like reading more than dance class and b) I'm used to reading, not dance class. I like how you slip "work" into "self-improvement." No idea how that works. Unless you're working at a career that aligns well with your interests and passions, most work is actually just there to sustain you until your larger goals are realized. I'm pretty sure I'm not thinking about self-improvement when I work to fund my tuition. I'm thinking about not being in debt, not development of my character. When I play Starcraft with the aim of being better at the game, I'm improving myself by becoming better at the game. It's annoying that people who know they have no ground to stand on grossly and obviously misinterpret a post in order for it to be easier to dismiss. I didn't say "might as well go live in the woods." I said your reasoning would work similarly if applied to electricity. You offer no evidence for why wanting to do something and feeling displaced when you stop doing is actually evidence of addiction. And actually, you DO know it is an addiction without trying to stop. It's very easy to tell by introspection and cognitive therapy whether something is an addiction or just a habit. It's all about the motivation, not the time you put into something.
You sir should write for CNN.
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On August 07 2012 22:16 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 08:20 ridethecatbus wrote:On August 07 2012 08:03 ragz_gt wrote:
The choices are too narrow to really answer.
True. I was just giving an example of a poll of professionals that I would like to see. I don't mean it to be taken seriously. If there were such a poll it should not be open for the public so that integrity of the data would be ensured. But since it is an example poll, let's all vote on it and see what happens. :D The questions are still completely terrible... Question 1: I mostly play games in my free time, but I also read and watch TV shows/movies. Question 2 and 3: Who would self-proclaim as an addict? And how on earth can you even ask professionals if they're addicted? Playing is their job. Of course they play ridiculous amounts. I had 2 weeks of vacation time, but not a lot of money to go anywhere, so I just relaxed and did the following: 1. Went to the movies twice. 2. Went out for beers with friends. 3. Watched the entirety of The Wire. 4. Played a shitton of SC2 and a shitton of MoP beta (probably about 8-12 hour sessions with food breaks) 5. Read two books. 6. Watched a bunch of movies at home with my wife. By CNN standards, I'm a gaming addict. But replace 4. with "Watched random shit on TV" and I'm a normal, well-rounded person.
Then you become a new type of addicts.
Before computer hit mainstream, TV addiction was very real.
I would say that playing games is like a hobby. But if you can't live w/o in sense that your psyche feels disturbed w/o it, then you are addicted.
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On August 07 2012 22:16 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 08:20 ridethecatbus wrote:On August 07 2012 08:03 ragz_gt wrote:
The choices are too narrow to really answer.
True. I was just giving an example of a poll of professionals that I would like to see. I don't mean it to be taken seriously. If there were such a poll it should not be open for the public so that integrity of the data would be ensured. But since it is an example poll, let's all vote on it and see what happens. :D The questions are still completely terrible... Question 1: I mostly play games in my free time, but I also read and watch TV shows/movies. Question 2 and 3: Who would self-proclaim as an addict? And how on earth can you even ask professionals if they're addicted? Playing is their job. Of course they play ridiculous amounts. I had 2 weeks of vacation time, but not a lot of money to go anywhere, so I just relaxed and did the following: 1. Went to the movies twice. 2. Went out for beers with friends. 3. Watched the entirety of The Wire. 4. Played a shitton of SC2 and a shitton of MoP beta (probably about 8-12 hour sessions with food breaks) 5. Read two books. 6. Watched a bunch of movies at home with my wife. By CNN standards, I'm a gaming addict. But replace 4. with "Watched random shit on TV" and I'm a normal, well-rounded person.
Pfft. By CNN standards you're addicted to reading, movies, good TV series, alcohol, and your wife.
You sir, live an unhealthy lifestyle and should seek help.
Edit: So was it the TLers that put you onto The Wire too? I just finished it two days ago after a shit ton of suggestions from TL. Insanely good series.
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On August 07 2012 22:16 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 08:20 ridethecatbus wrote:On August 07 2012 08:03 ragz_gt wrote:
The choices are too narrow to really answer.
True. I was just giving an example of a poll of professionals that I would like to see. I don't mean it to be taken seriously. If there were such a poll it should not be open for the public so that integrity of the data would be ensured. But since it is an example poll, let's all vote on it and see what happens. :D The questions are still completely terrible... Question 1: I mostly play games in my free time, but I also read and watch TV shows/movies. Question 2 and 3: Who would self-proclaim as an addict? And how on earth can you even ask professionals if they're addicted? Playing is their job. Of course they play ridiculous amounts. I had 2 weeks of vacation time, but not a lot of money to go anywhere, so I just relaxed and did the following: 1. Went to the movies twice. 2. Went out for beers with friends. 3. Watched the entirety of The Wire. 4. Played a shitton of SC2 and a shitton of MoP beta (probably about 8-12 hour sessions with food breaks) 5. Read two books. 6. Watched a bunch of movies at home with my wife. By CNN standards, I'm a gaming addict. But replace 4. with "Watched random shit on TV" and I'm a normal, well-rounded person.
I can't believe how much you talk from my soul (if the english has this term).
EXACTLY what i think.
Watching TV is so absolutely common, even the whole day back and forth that no one ever questions it, because they do it themselves. Gaming? OUTRAGEOUS! THIS GUY IS ADDICTED111eleven.
Makes me sad. But well well in 10-20 years gaming will be above TV atleast in the higher educated society.
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On August 05 2012 14:19 Wegandi wrote:
Good ol' CNN paternalism. What would we do without you! Pests, the lot of them, like a billion mosquitoes all poking and biting you, when all you want to do is be left alone and exercise your own damn rights. Who the fuck cares if someone plays a lot of games? It's their goddamn right. Similarly who the hell cares if someone does a bunch of drugs, it's their damn right.
Tired of the corporate-Statist media and all its appendages telling us what 'acceptable' behavior is. Other than their faux-outrage and mission-creep, it would be an ok article.
Right on. Typical corporate whore media - we expect nothing different from them.
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The amount of attention "video game addiction" receives is just sad. Apparently, if an adult male ignores his wife watching the television - that's just funny/true/real. But if anyone under the age of 25 ignores his mother/girlfriend/grandma to play video games, man - that's just like heroin! I'm 30, FYI, so it doesn't bother me directly - but perhaps the reason so many people play games/watch television/spend hours on social media/etc. is because there are needs people have which are not being met by society at large. Then, once we accept that this is illustrative of a failure of society (and not a failure of millions of individuals, who are failing individually), we can actually do something to make ourselves better.
Or we could just all get adderall prescriptions, because that's probably what's going to happen instead anyway.
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I reached out to John Sutter, the author of the article, for an interview with ESFI. He declined, stating that he wasn't in the position to give interviews. I also asked him what his thoughts were about the article and the controversy, and he was unwilling to respond to that as well.
The way he fielded the criticism from the community makes me think his editors wanted an addiction focused story and that he wanted an esports story for CNN. Guess we'll never know.
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One thing I can say is that CNN is certainly addicted to sensationalism.
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I think it was an ok article....of course most people here would hate on him for it. I think its just a bias within the gaming community...remember the way you see it isn't necessarily the way the whole world sees it.
I have had to endure that with my poker background.
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On August 07 2012 22:16 yeint wrote:
3. Watched the entirety of The Wire.
Awesome. I recommend you check out Sons of Anarchy next.
On August 07 2012 22:16 yeint wrote:
4. Played a shitton of SC2 and a shitton of MoP beta (probably about 8-12 hour sessions with food breaks)
By CNN standards, I'm a gaming addict.
I'd say that if you do this on a fairly regular basis (maybe twice a week), you're a gaming addict by Zorkmid standards too.
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EPT
