EPTProgamers selling account leveling services - Page 22
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
If I was good enough to wtfpwn noobs until GM and some guy said hey I'll give u $500 to get me into GM. I'd be all over that. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
Obviously, a lot of people are saying they don't think this is a big deal. The biggest counterpoint for me is the potential for these services to contribute to hacking communities. There's a reason the levelers advertise in those communities rather than in a more public forum. I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler. A lot of people have argued that it's justified because progamers need money. To that I would respond, needing money never excuses a wrong. Either a progamer can make his way honestly, or he should find another career. We all know the scene is oversaturated anyways. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:10 Faust852 wrote: I'm pretty sure IMMvp is a beastyqt's smurf. That's on EU. | ||
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler. I think that is the point I'd make. Ladder games are completely meaningless, and the outcome of every match is now just vanity. The whole system is boring and FUBAR, so trying to demand integrity in such a system is pointless. Even if zero people were "leveled' in such a fashion, the ladder is a complete farce in every way. | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: Updated the OP to add some points about leveling hurting the competitive integrity of the ladder and contributing to hacking sites/communities. Obviously, a lot of people are saying they don't think this is a big deal. The biggest counterpoint for me is the potential for these services to contribute to hacking communities. There's a reason the levelers advertise in those communities rather than in a more public forum. I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler. A lot of people have argued that it's justified because progamers need money. To that I would respond, needing money never excuses a wrong. Either a progamer can make his way honestly, or he should find another career. We all know the scene is oversaturated anyways. I would LOVE for you to respond to my previous post. I address and counter all of your points. FYI: Leveling companies advertise everywhere -- they even sponsor showmatches so that they can advertise there. The problem with your second point here is that pros need to make money. You're essentially telling people to play completely honest, a principle that just isn't true in the real world. Your definition of immoral, leveling accounts, is NOT the majority of the communities, as shown in this thread. So, thinking along the same lines as democracy, live with it and don't buy leveling yourself. | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
If you want a gold star, play better starcraft, if you want to make something of yourself, focus on the things that really matter (winning tournaments, good streaming, etc) | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: Updated the OP to add some points about leveling hurting the competitive integrity of the ladder and contributing to hacking sites/communities. Obviously, a lot of people are saying they don't think this is a big deal. The biggest counterpoint for me is the potential for these services to contribute to hacking communities. There's a reason the levelers advertise in those communities rather than in a more public forum. I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler. A lot of people have argued that it's justified because progamers need money. To that I would respond, needing money never excuses a wrong. Either a progamer can make his way honestly, or he should find another career. We all know the scene is oversaturated anyways. There are several problems: 1: The only "rule" against this as far as I can tell is that share account is against EULA. How do you propose to enforce this? IP lock is not feasible since pros' IP would change all the time, sometime across multiple countries in the same week. And it would be a total hassle for people that travels alot. 2: It's a dumb rule to enforce anyway, unless you want to ban all team accounts, event official / caster account and all that stuff. 3: Biggest problem is that people just don't care. Maybe (not likely though) you can convince people you are right, but there is no way you can convince people to care, And it doesn't mean much to be right if they just don't give a damn. | ||
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:17 murkk wrote: I think that is the point I'd make. Ladder games are completely meaningless, and the outcome of every match is now just vanity. The whole system is boring and FUBAR, so trying to demand integrity in such a system is pointless. Even if zero people were "leveled' in such a fashion, the ladder is a complete farce in every way. Seriously, I can't think of a single game where the in-game ladder actually meant something. The only way for a ladder to actually mean anything is if it's ran on an external website and policed by the community. Like CAL and ICCup back in the day. | ||
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korona
1098 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: Updated the OP to add some points about leveling hurting the competitive integrity of the ladder and contributing to hacking sites/communities. Agreed. One problem regarding leveling services is how it affects the opponents that are crushed during the leveling sessions. Ladder anxiety is a frequently discussed topic also here at TL. For example I watched Dragon's stream yesterday (2012-07-16) where he was leveling a silver level account. Dragon showed at least once his e-mail inbox, which had multiple e-mails with topic "powerleveling". During that session Dragon crushed several silver to platinum level opponents with as humiliating tactics as possible. He also harassed those opponents with smiley whispers immediately after matches. Those players expected to get about similar level opponents, but got humiliated by a professional. I wonder how many new & developing players have quit SC2 because of Dragon & other such players. On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote: Here's why I think this account is leveled by Naama: 1. The 1v1 player's hotkey patterns match exactly to Naama. The team game player's hotkeys are completely different, as is his skill level (far inferior). See below. You used replays from Naama's Mousesports era. Naama left Mouz in early 2011. You might want to check if his recent replays still contain similar hotkey patterns. | ||
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yurta
Canada91 Posts
And please don't say you don't want your ladder games to be meaningless because like it or not, outside of practicing builds which you can do in customs with similar skilled opponents, your ladder games are meaningless. I will probably get flamed and trolled for this comment but it is simple truth of the matter, outside high high masters and GM ladder games don't matter, even at that point I don't think they matter much, it is just status symbol that should not be taken very seriously. | ||
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Prophanity
United States165 Posts
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hoivenmayven
United States134 Posts
While fraud in selling lessons is really awful, if people are buying lessons from huxsters shouldn't they either report it or do more research before paying someone for lessons? Wouldn't a quick inquiry into whether someone was legit or not or going through a company that uses actual pros solve that problem? I can understand kids being duped but how are they going to get access to coaching type of money, anyways? | ||
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oBlade
United States5754 Posts
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
Those lvl'd accounts in gm will fall out with in a week of losing by the owner or not being active, so its not a issue of taking up gm spots to. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
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destian
141 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: Personally, I see no problem with account leveling -- the points you bring up about people breaking into GM don't really matter since grandmaster league doesn't mean anything -- on any given day the bottom 100 players in GM don't even belong there MMR wise -- Masters players have overtaken them. In order for the average high masters player to break into GM he/she has to play the day it comes out, if the league fills up you will have to be the #1 ranked player in Masters league in order to be moved into it. This defeats your point of the average high masters player attempting to get into GM -- simply put, they won't either way. But some of the bottom 100 who have been overtaken may be new to GM who worked hard in the previous season to get their MMR where it is. I don't see what your point is because it's still the case that if you get your MMR within the top 200, you will make GM the next season (unless as you say it fills up but that is probably your fault). Also, my point applies to high master as well as GM. Leveled accounts are taking up high master spots that could go to more aspiring semi-pros. On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: Addressing your point about account sharing being against the EULA -- Blizzard usually doesn't even act on infringements. Before their announcement of a mass ban, how many hackers were playing on the NA ladder (Hell, there are STILL many hackers playing on it today). Since blizzard seems to just not care enough to enforce all of its rules, there's no real punishment or way of proof to convict people of account sharing. It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states: "You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling." But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: I don't really understand your third point. You state that the main source of customers are hackers -- what is your proof? Even so, proof aside, let's look at your statement: "These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling." -- What? What is your point? What harm does this do besides the fact that they fact? I don't know if it's the main source or not, but it's undeniable that these leveling services are frequently advertised on hacking sites. This includes making threads on the hacking sites. Certainly they are going to draw that type of customer. This ties into my point that the leveling serves to legitimize hackers' accounts. IMMvp clearly hacks in team games as I demonstrated with replays. Apparently these pros have no problem with helping out hackers. On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: "The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it." -- What is wrong with coaching? I don't understand. If anything, this may HELP the situation of pro gamers not making nearly enough $$. Sounds like a very convenient and beneficial combination to BOTH parties -- The pros get $, the students help to gain Starcraft II skill, increasing their skill and potentially their community value. I didn't say it's helping the pros coach, I said the people who got leveled (and are not legitimately at the skill level of their league) are then advertising coaching and telling people that they really are GM/high master. On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: "It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further." There are ALWAYS middlemen, ALWAYS. And OF COURSE they're making money, if they weren't why would they acting as the middle man? Next, you make the assumption that these middle men use the money to contribute to hacking communities to sustain them. Excuse me? Proof? ANY sort of evidence? Here's something pointing in the other direction: Why would the middle men use the money that they are making to benefit hacking communities? It seems that you are again assuming that these "middle men" are from hacking communities, yet this very well may not be the case. Even if they were, pumping money into an underground community instead of keeping it for themselves seems slightly foolish. This IS in essence your strongest point -- that the middle men are part of hacking communities, so that by buying leveling services one is essentially benefiting hackers. However, since you do not provide any sort of proof, only assume, it cannot be taken seriously. Many of the advertised middlemen on the prominent hacking site are donors to that site or "Advanced Hackers." These people contribute money and add to the knowledge base of the site with their programming expertise (as demonstrated by their post history). I'm not linking to direct sources since I don't think TL allows any linking to hacking sites. And there's also the point of increasing traffic to the hacking sites in general. | ||
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