EPTOnce in the death ball, it can be used to force engagements in favorable areas because opposing players will get ransacked for free otherwise.
TL:DR: Tempest makes the death ball problem worse.
[HOTS] Breaking up the Death Ball - Page 7
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NATO
United States459 Posts
Once in the death ball, it can be used to force engagements in favorable areas because opposing players will get ransacked for free otherwise. TL:DR: Tempest makes the death ball problem worse. | ||
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Champloo
Germany1850 Posts
On July 02 2012 01:07 xsnac wrote: I dont understand why ppl dont like deathball ? a big battle with high tier units is the best thing you can ask for if you are a spectator . What...? I'd rather watch 20 minutes of action like in a Warcraft III game than 19 minute of army building and then 1 minute action. Edit: Pretty sure noone will build the tempest if it stays like it is. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On July 02 2012 05:53 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: I know for a fact almost 100% people would do that, You require far less apm to move around with a 1 control group and split and attack with mouse movements. You think it's better because Pros that are really fast and make great decisions makes it look flawless. Though given that even Flash uses just 1 control group for his bio ball in sc2 shows it. Tab selecting and smart spell casting has made it all pretty simple to use these giant clumps of units. . But see if you have all of your units in 1 control in BW, you will simply get Stormed, Plagued to death and etc. Those spells are much stronger in BW than SC2. I think pros will keep separating units to different hotkeys in BW to prevent such from occurring. | ||
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Genie1
Canada333 Posts
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
I can see toss going Archon/Zealot/Stalker/Colossi (current Deathball) and adding 2 or 3 Tempests in to FORCE an engagement which takes place where Toss wants to. Dont want to engage me? Ok... every few seconds a Broodlord/Infestor/Viper/Swarmhost drops death until you grab your stuff and attack me. Oh... and my oracle cloakes my deathball when disturbing mining becomes irrelevant. How are these 2 units supposed to "not add to the deathball"? Same for Zerg. If you want to make use of Abcuct, you have to have units nearby to kill the abducted stuff quickly. If you want to keep your swarm hosts, guess what... you have to have units sitting on them und guarding them, like you guard your broodlords now. Zerg Deathball could most likely stay Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor (maybe a few hosts mixed in) as hydra even with speed is not viable and the vipers abduct is hardly needed in endgame scenarios. Giving speed to the hydra changes nothing. Its still squishy and still gets roflstoped by any kind of area damage. As for Terran you will add the warhound to your mechball (vP) so another unit that makes a great addition to an huge pile of units. Maybe you could split of the widow mine to zone some vital areas but why should you? Most ppl will try to guard their huge metal ball with mines burrowed in front of Siegetanks... I really cant imagine where these units are no addition to the deathballs. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On July 02 2012 02:08 sVnteen wrote: well that would kill zerg... they would have to use like 5 hotkeys for just units (not including infestors, mutas, broodlors...) for army if you are maxed that would make zerg easily the hardest race imo Zergs deal with it fine in BW. I was very well accustomed to playing with 5-7 hotkeys for units and I was a C player at best. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5213 Posts
On July 02 2012 05:22 Toadvine wrote: There are a whole lot of core mechanics in the game that make deathballs preferable. Putting in a bunch of gimmicky units will not change anything, they'd need to redo a lot of very basic stuff (mostly for P and Z), which they're obviously not going to do. And I doubt altering unit movement and formations would change all that much. To prevent deathballs, the game needs incentive to split one's army into smaller chunks, of which there's currently not much. Similarly, limited control groups wouldn't change a thing, you'd just have your deathball on three hotkeys instead of one. You'd see a ton of all-ins. What you're describing is essentially Crossfire, a horrible PvZ map. There's a limit to what you can blame on maps, and this particular issue is all Browder and co. I didn't say you wouldn't see all-ins, of course you would. But isn't that what PvZ has devolved into now? Protoss take 2 bases, difficult to take 3rd, Zerg takes 3, Protoss all-ins from now. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:02 Charon1979 wrote: These new units will add to the deathball... I can see toss going Archon/Zealot/Stalker/Colossi (current Deathball) and adding 2 or 3 Tempests in to FORCE an engagement which takes place where Toss wants to. Dont want to engage me? Ok... every few seconds a Broodlord/Infestor/Viper/Swarmhost drops death until you grab your stuff and attack me. Oh... and my oracle cloakes my deathball when disturbing mining becomes irrelevant. How are these 2 units supposed to "not add to the deathball"? A valid point. Cloak on the oracle does seem like it would contribute to deathball play. + Show Spoiler + Same for Zerg. If you want to make use of Abcuct, you have to have units nearby to kill the abducted stuff quickly. If you want to keep your swarm hosts, guess what... you have to have units sitting on them und guarding them, like you guard your broodlords now. Zerg Deathball could most likely stay Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor (maybe a few hosts mixed in) as hydra even with speed is not viable and the vipers abduct is hardly needed in endgame scenarios. Giving speed to the hydra changes nothing. Its still squishy and still gets roflstoped by any kind of area damage. As for Terran you will add the warhound to your mechball (vP) so another unit that makes a great addition to an huge pile of units. Maybe you could split of the widow mine to zone some vital areas but why should you? Most ppl will try to guard their huge metal ball with mines burrowed in front of Siegetanks... I really cant imagine where these units are no addition to the deathballs. Putting widow mines in front of tanks would be a waste of mines because if the siege tanks kill a "mined" unit before the mine goes off that mine is wasted. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 02 2012 05:49 Alabast wrote: Please dont shoot me. Just feel blizzard needs some credit. So it has been said, by the developers, that the new expansion is hoping to get rid of the deathball problem. It has also been said, by roughly everybody on here, that the developers are going about this wrong. I see the arguments of the community, but I have to side with the developers thus far. So far I have not seen people argue things from all points of view, just a few select ones that get repeated about 20 times in 6 page threads and are very narrow. Maybe some other points of view: Zerg changes Viper- Yes it does goes great with the zerg deathball. But its abilities are made to break up opposing deathballs. Facing the viper, you get penalized the most for keeping your units together, making it a better idea to spread your army out to help negate the effects of blinding clouds and abducts. Swarm Host- My biggest argument with this one I am not 100% sure about. What is the collision size of the locust? And do they block pathing like broodlings? Both of these would make them fairly horrible to put with your army, as having constant trash spawning on your side of the battle and pushing to get in range would just screw things up. Ultralisks- Again the enemy has to keep their army spread apart, or else they will get burrow charged. Protoss changes Oracle- Once again designed to split up the enemy. If you dont properly defend your base, you cant use it. Better leave some units there or send a squad! Tempest- This unit I can understand other peoples arguments. I think the idea might be more of area control. Anybody realize that their attack range is that of a watch tower? Although I think the idea of using it to attack from interesting angles will turn more into using it to force them to attack your death ball. So ya..... iffy about this. Easier Recall- Only affects a small group of units. So the protoss can send out a hit force, target something, and bring them back. But considering the size of the army, if it finds any large armies it will probably die. So this forces you to spread out to cover all points of entry, instead of having them sneak around your ball. Terran Changes First I am guessing most of the terran changes are to promote factory play instead of bio or biomech. BattleHellions- Completely a deathball supporter. Cant argue that. Just helps with mech focus. (Which will mean less bio, which will mean less of those storms that get complained about) Warhound- Again a mech thingy. Essentially a mech marauder? I do hope they change the anti-mech missle on it. Possibly to the smoke screen?! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345093 Widow Mine- So if I clump my units into a death ball and get hit by these, I might lose a lot. Very anti deathball. Although I do think the ten seconds is pretty high. I do see the need of a timer. Instead of exploding on collision, like a spider mine, its meant to get farther into a ball and do more damage than the spider mine, so to balance this damage there needs to be a chance to negate it. Other general arguments- Collosus is not a hard to counter unit. You make anything that flys, which is all at the same tech level. Stop saying that its hard to counter. Low-micro, yes. Hard to counter, no. This I have heard so many times. People feel that blizzard is at a low with creativity, but feel that they need to bring old units. How is this an answer to low creativity? Old units just so happen to not be new ideas. Lurkers are not new, they are old. Ultimately I might agree that these change might not turn the game into a map wide struggle filled with micro battle, but I do think it will at least spread the battles apart, making them cover a larger area. Larger area means more stuff happening (rather than all on one screen. More stuff means more micro. Makes us happier, right? Absolutely nothing you mentioned will discourage deathball play. Vipers are made to pull things like Colossi out of the deathball. If the oponent pre-emptively spreads out, it will actually make it easier for Vipers to pick off Tanks/Colossi/whatever. Oracles play the same role as Marines/Medivacs; they harass. They will do nothing whatsoever to break up the deathball, just like harassment doesn't. Widow Mines won't reduce clumping; all they'll do is force you to bring detection. Ultralisk charge will promote more deathballing because if you separate something (like your Tanks), it leaves them vulnerable to being charged before you react, whereas if you keep them close to your army, any Ultralisk popping out of the ground gets insta-gibbed by your entire army. Easier Recall will promote more harassing, but won't get rid of deathball syndrome. Again, you haven't said anything whatsoever that can lead anyone to believe that deathball play will go away. So many people are refusing to see the problem; THE PATHING AI IS THE PROBLEM. Ranged units are incredibly effective because of the pathing; they clump together very well, meaning they take up as little space as possible, meaning that more of them can shoot at a time against a certain target. AoE units are so weak because of the pathing AI; it clumps units so much that if AoE was strong they would insta-die. Melee units are incredibly inefficient because of the pathing AI; ranged units clump together so well that they have less surface area that is vulnerable to melee attack. This also contributes to a lack of harassment viability for Zerg and Protoss. There are a host of other problems, such as key abilities for each race reducing the potential for micro (Concussion Shells, Fungal Growth, Force Field), key units being generic, boring A-move units will little micro potential (Roaches, Marauders, Colossi), and Blizzard micromanaging balance so much that they have destroyed so many interesting and fun builds and strategies before players really had a chance to adapt to them. But the main problem always has been and always will be (since we know Blizzard will never fix it) the pathing AI. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On July 02 2012 05:53 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: I know for a fact almost 100% people would do that, You require far less apm to move around with a 1 control group and split and attack with mouse movements. You think it's better because Pros that are really fast and make great decisions makes it look flawless. Though given that even Flash uses just 1 control group for his bio ball in sc2 shows it. Tab selecting and smart spell casting has made it all pretty simple to use these giant clumps of units. So you think that with unlimited unit selection, you wouldn't see Vultures and Dragoons roaming the map in TvP, for instance? Players do these things because they confer an advantage, which is a result of BW having well-designed units. It doesn't matter as much whether you have a 1 hotkey deathball or a 4 hotkey deathball. It's all about having an incentive to break off a part of your army and do something with it. | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:14 Toadvine wrote: So you think that with unlimited unit selection, you wouldn't see Vultures and Dragoons roaming the map in TvP, for instance? Players do these things because they confer an advantage, which is a result of BW having well-designed units. It doesn't matter as much whether you have a 1 hotkey deathball or a 4 hotkey deathball. It's all about having an incentive to break off a part of your army and do something with it. Yeah you would see units roaming the map and harassing that goes on in SC2 as well. Though what I am saying contributes to deathball formation is the clumping and 1 control group that everyone uses for their main army. It's really effective and easy to do. So why not do it? | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
I have no idea why people are acting disturbed that in the end there are max army versus max army clashes...because yeah, when someone is moving their entire army toward you for all-out aggression then you are supposed to face it with your own army as well. Those clashes also look pretty nice and micro-intensive fairly often, especially nowadays as battle micro is getting better. The idea that someone "instantly wins" after a blob versus blob engagement is stupid unless the person so overwhelmingly crushed the other army then he has had an insurmountable lead for a while. Zerg reinforcements, protoss warpins, and terran reinforcements (terrans especially loving to complain about the former two) have made it so that the game doesn't end right there. The idea that battles last 2-5 seconds is also complete exaggeration, most late-game army clashes nowadays last a good while unless, again, one player is in such a big lead he can just slap his opponent down. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:21 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Yeah you would see units roaming the map and harassing that goes on in SC2 as well. Though what I am saying contributes to deathball formation is the clumping and 1 control group that everyone uses for their main army. It's really effective and easy to do. So why not do it? You're not understanding the problem. SC2 players don't deathball because they're lazy; they deathball because it's the most efficient/best way to win due to the pathing/unit AI. This isn't the case in BW, and that's why you wouldn't see deathballing in BW, even with unlimited unit selection. | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:26 Savant wrote: There were deathballs in BW as well. They were just a lot more spread out and damage occurred slow enough that players had more room to micro. What makes a deathball in SC2 boring is that once you engage there's really not much you can micro besides casting spells. You can't right click your units around during a big engagement while colossi or broodlords are shooting at you, so the battle is dictated by army composition and positioning prior to the fight than a player's micro skills. Blizzard can start by giving casters less weight and toning down the splash. There's no incentive to maneuver your units in battle when storm/fungal/emp is 10x more crucial, and maneuvering under broodlord/colossus fire just gets your units massacred without firing a shot. Maybe if they removed autocast, added some cooldowns to spells, and made it so that colossi or broodlords miss when the target is moving, people will spend more time fighting screen-wide battles instead of a-moving then spamming f. You call BW armies a deathball and then you give the exact reason why they aren't considered a deathball... | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On July 02 2012 00:57 enemy2010 wrote: It think with units that "pull units out of a death ball to thin it out" won't prevent both parties to build up those. My direct suggestion would be to allow less units to be grouped up in a control group. I don't think of a number as small as in BW (12 i guess, right?), but maybe something like 24, so one page of a control group? So instead of a deathball in one control group we have a deathball in two control groups? That sounds ridiculous. | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:25 Stratos_speAr wrote: You're not understanding the problem. SC2 players don't deathball because they're lazy; they deathball because it's the most efficient/best way to win due to the pathing/unit AI. This isn't the case in BW, and that's why you wouldn't see deathballing in BW, even with unlimited unit selection. That is the problem It's effective and easy to do so why not do it? which is what I just posted. Plus the result is either you win the fight which probably 75%+ you win the game though deathballs are starting to trade a bit better now as we get good unit compositions for each race. We will always have them, Though they will trade better allowing for more fights to occur. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:26 Savant wrote: There were deathballs in BW as well. They were just a lot more spread out and damage occurred slow enough that players had more room to micro. What makes a deathball in SC2 boring is that once you engage there's really not much you can micro besides casting spells. You can't right click your units around during a big engagement while colossi or broodlords are shooting at you, so the battle is dictated by army composition and positioning prior to the fight than a player's micro skills. Blizzard can start by giving casters less weight and toning down the splash. There's no incentive to maneuver your units in battle when storm/fungal/emp is 10x more crucial, and maneuvering under broodlord/colossus fire just gets your units massacred without firing a shot. Maybe if they removed autocast, added some cooldowns to spells, and made it so that colossi or broodlords miss when the target is moving, people will spend more time fighting screen-wide battles instead of a-moving then spamming f. Don't even think anything drastic like that is necessary even, just changing the pathing/the way units stay spread and not clumped up would make huge differences. Just compare an early game battle vs a death ball one. You will definitely see individual units be pulled back etc even though it's a lot quicker but then when it comes to the deathballs everything is just so clumped up and way too messy to do it effectively without the units getting stuck and stuff. Just changing the deathball battle to seem like 3-4 smaller battles thanks to the units being spread would be so much better as it would allow for more precise control without everything just being one big mess. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:26 Savant wrote: There were deathballs in BW as well. They were just a lot more spread out and damage occurred slow enough that players had more room to micro. What makes a deathball in SC2 boring is that once you engage there's really not much you can micro besides casting spells. You can't right click your units around during a big engagement while colossi or broodlords are shooting at you, so the battle is dictated by army composition and positioning prior to the fight than a player's micro skills. Blizzard can start by giving casters less weight and toning down the splash. There's no incentive to maneuver your units in battle when storm/fungal/emp is 10x more crucial, and maneuvering under broodlord/colossus fire just gets your units massacred without firing a shot. Maybe if they removed autocast, added some cooldowns to spells, and made it so that colossi or broodlords miss when the target is moving, people will spend more time fighting screen-wide battles instead of a-moving then spamming f. This is wrong. If 'micro' had so little impact on large engagements then fungal wouldn't be as stupidly powerful as it is. The 40 damage it puts out isn't what makes fungal so brutal, it's the lock down on movement. If they took the damage component away entirely fungal would still be used in those huge engagements. Since fungals primary function is to remove the ability for the other player to micro, micro must be playing a pretty big part. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
There's people talking about making units live longer, buffing splash damage, buffing certain aspects of the game, but the thing we all agree on is that there needs to be a way to make a certain group of or individual units useable from the instant they are finished AND making those same units exponentially harder to use as you get more and more of them (i.e, make it harder to use 100 zerglings, 50 marines, and 25 zealots). Controlling a more powerful army shouldn't be as easy as controlling 5 units. And if they say you have to cast 20 spells in those battles to win and you can cast spells to harass, I'm going to tear them a new asshole. It's unfortunate that a deathball is simply better and easier to use than properly positioning and exploiting certain units. There needs to be a tier above the deathball that does not involve "i have more collosi than you do, therefore i win" scenarios. Breaking it up isn't enough. It's just going to get back together. There needs to be a way to fend off a deathball with less resources invested. | ||
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