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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 12:52 -Kaiser- wrote:
At any rate, we have several people confirming that Spades has/does streamcheat/ghost, and we have an enormous amount of evidence that he maphacks.
Nothing left to see here. Spades cheats. As far as all of the koreans go, that's something for something else. This thread isn't about that.
The evidence mounted against Spades is almost entirely circumstantial. That's not a lot of evidence at all. It's really just replays from one show match. This isn't enough to conclusively incriminate a player of map hacking, and without it you can't simply label a player a map hacker based on so little evidence; or many more pro players would evaporate from SC2. You've even bundled in hearsay that he streamcheats as evidence that he'd probably maphack too; which was only ignited from questionable decisions/actions in ONE series.
If he's really hacking then let the community members (who are actually looking into this) do their work to incriminate or exonerate spades. It's not like hes boarding the next plane with millions of dollars. The evidence really isn't conclusive yet.
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the not looking at your first scouting scv is comepletly ridiculous
NO ONE does this, every single fucking gm player will look at the scouting scv/probe/drone
Spades doesnt, he sends it and then sends it back without ever looking at it
find me one gm who does this, u wont even find a gold player who does this
hes clearly hacking sometimes
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On June 05 2012 12:55 ch33psh33p wrote:
That siege on the cliff on Emtombed versus Lucifron?
How can you possibly fucking explain that.
he has center tower , scan land where his army should be , not where his buildings are , so he is waiting for an attack. Good game sense and siege at the right place... The marine retreat after stim is more strange, but you can imagine vikings would always be followed by tanks and marines...
Anyway i have to say, the difference between his ladder games and those 7 games is what let me thinks that he cheats during important games only... and that's bad
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After watching Catz and company look at the replays the biggest part of evidence is when he selected his whole army and unsieges and moves his army to the north side without even knowing that his opponents army is there while looking at a random spot outside his third for over 10 sec. If you watched Catz and Illusion picking apart the replays it is insanely obvious.
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On June 05 2012 12:15 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:10 LambtrOn wrote:On June 05 2012 12:09 knOxStarcraft wrote:On June 05 2012 12:05 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 11:58 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Catz seems pretty sure here... he better be careful though, if he is wrong then he is going to have to make some HUGE apologies It won't matter, mob mentality is working against me. I will never been "proven" innocent. If they want to find suspicious actions they will, and all of their fans will take everything they say as fact. They keep saying i camera lock whenever i go over fog of war. And other times they say "here he is looking in fog of war" If i had camera lock how am i looking in fog of war. This makes no sense and contradicts itself. I knew no good would come of them analyzing, because anything except 100% innocence, condemns me. This is why what they're doing is wrong, streaming this analysis is very unprofessional and is the wrong way to go. What's so wrong about it? It's transparent for us viewers, which I like. Everything they are saying is fair. It's wrong because they're trying to prove him guilty not prove him innocent. It's completely biased and streaming it to people will destroy spades' reputation even if he's actually innocent
They're just basically showing evidence of the maphacks being used. Yeah they were pretty adamant that he was guilty, but that's because they had evidence behind it. If there were any other explanation behind close to 10 or so games having weird camera locks and decision making then bring it forward.
I think the game against Theognis on Antiga was pretty convincing evidence of maphacks.
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On June 05 2012 12:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Thanks for CatZ and company for doing such a service to the community in exposing a pro gamer who is hacking.
Once a hacker, always a hacker.
Nope.
Thanks catz for the stream! but that statement is really wrong 
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Yes, Thx to Catz,Drewbie,Illlusion and TT1 for exposing this lowlife cheater.
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Can we get another pro's opinion on the "Magic Scans" of spades? I agree with CatZ and don't see how it is possible, but would like to hear what people like cArn have to say about it.
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On June 05 2012 12:58 veKtory wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 CortoMontez wrote:On June 05 2012 12:54 veKtory wrote:
Anyone backing Spades want to explain him pulling his Marines back on Emtombed without seeing the tanks siege? Watch any GSL level TvT and pulling back units when only vikings are visible is a common occurance. Why did he stim to run after them in the first place and pull back for no reason then?
those GSL TvTs.. they get shot AT LEAST once.
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On June 05 2012 12:54 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. Even i know a few gamers that stream cheated during when i frequently played playhem and stopped playing because playhem didnt put any delay(I even requested them to put some delay) on their stream a while back.
damn its all coming out now
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this whole thing is just a big mess >.< although from what I gather, this is really common in Korea :/
EDIT: for that latte portion of the post i mean stream cheating
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On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
This is really scary, I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who know shit is going down but are afraid of being the ones doing it.
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On June 05 2012 07:07 Spades wrote:
I have a team, I have sponsors. My career is basically crippled now, even if completely absolved. The OP was out for my blood, and this is how easy it is to destroy someones career. It's impossible for someone to find proof i hacked, because I didn't. It's all circumstantial nonsense, that can't be proven either way. If you want to find suspicious actions, just turn on first person view for anyone in any game and you will find some. I'm being screwed over by this fact, and I hope someone finds an actual foolproof method to detect hacks so this is avoided for others in the future.
So how do i recover something like this? I would know to know how.
I really find Spades posts incredibly suspicious and self-defeatist. Instead of trying to be positive and forgive and forget as to be the bigger man if he did not hack, he keeps making it seem as if this has done irreversible damage because of these simple accusations. Come on, people don't lose their entire careers by mudslinging without any decent proof. That is what makes Spades seem incredibly suspicious to me, especially because he has been caught maphacking before. Instead of trying to be as upfront about it as possible, and explain every single accusation thrown at him right back in the accuser's face, he is trying to hide and be as isolated as possible from the situation. After all, if he did not hack and is not a hacker, then wouldn't someone such as a PROGAMER have the balls to cement a defense stronger than what any no namer - especially one with just one post- has to say? After all, he has all the resources(his replays). Wouldn't it give him good publicity to do so? Wouldn't it show his sponsors that he is able to stand up for himself and control situations regarding him? Wouldn't it gain some admiration and fans? The fact that he is trying to garner empathy in such a way that tries to completely ignore the accusations made at him raises some eyebrows.The only reason I can think of is him trying to lay as low as possible and keep attention off the claims given in the OP and by Illusion. The camera locks still have not been answered directly by him with clarity. His claims are all extremely vague and dodge the subject, claiming "chance", "luck", and "randomness" as his only solid defenses.
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Are the Spades vs theognis replays available for download somewhere? I'd like to have a look at some of those in the replay instead of just on stream.
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What worries me the most is how many pros go undetected who dont stream who do this..
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On June 05 2012 12:57 -Kaiser- wrote:
People who are saying the CatZ stream sounds biased are forgetting that they reviewed all of the replays beforehand and reached a conclusion so that they knew what to analyze when they came on air.
they also made their main thesis really clear (that he cheated in the games vs lucifron and theognis, but not necessarily on ladder/stream where a much bigger audience could see it quickly)
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hey spades i hear tesco is looking for a janitor
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 05 2012 12:59 Benjamin99 wrote:
Yes, Thx to Catz,Drewbie,Illlusion and TT1 for exposing this lowlife cheater.
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 05 2012 12:58 veKtory wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 CortoMontez wrote:On June 05 2012 12:54 veKtory wrote:
Anyone backing Spades want to explain him pulling his Marines back on Emtombed without seeing the tanks siege? Watch any GSL level TvT and pulling back units when only vikings are visible is a common occurance. Why did he stim to run after them in the first place and pull back for no reason then? Sick game sense man. Just like how he sieged all his tanks on the cliff without scouting that entire game. oh wait.
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IMO, if spades was really innocent he should have just asked to get in the skype call and explain his actions. If he's not lying he has nothing to lose. Right?
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EPT
