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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
I'm not defending Spades. To be honest, if I had to put money on it, I would chalk it up to him hacking. This is based on him never checking the fog of war, his past history, and his questionable responses in this thread.
That being said, the absolute bullshit going on on Catz stream and in this thread pisses me off nearly as much as his alleged hacking. Conjecture and suspicion can NEVER be taken as "concrete" evidence. You can certainly say that all of these things suggest his guilt, but Catz has just straight up declared he is hacking and you are a fucking retard if you disagree. People, pros included, are just frothing at the mouth to publicly crucify this guy. What if he was/is innocent? This whole incident would still ruin his career.
This whole incident is intensely saddening for me, not because an insignificant pro is cheating, but because of the manner in which the community responded to it.
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Well, the analysis from CatZ and co is pretty... convincing in my opinion (to say the least)
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On June 05 2012 12:32 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:27 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:18 Karthane wrote:On June 05 2012 12:15 cArn- wrote:
This is getting really pathetic, you can point out things that look suspicious very easily for any good player.. I'm baffled as to how this thread is stilll going and those so called "analysis" are taken seriously.
So fucking disgusting There are 4 pros analyzing this right now, and it's so obvious that he is hacking. he is fucking moving and engaging his army while he is watching his base for like 6 straight seconds, and he moves his army while the enemies army is in the fog of war. There is NO way he isn't hacking. there are so many instances that couldn't just be pure coincidences. I could do the same shit after watching 6-7 replays of any other player, and according to this completely flawed logic most korenas are hacking. This is no proof and is never gonna be, you always have days when you sense things more even if you're not a super top player, especially when you study a bunch of games of your opponent before playing him. That is part of what I find funny. If we were looking at a top and, more importantly, well-loved Korean player people would have an entirely different perception. "OMG what amazing game sense." "So pro!" "Godlike! Next bonjwa!" "How did he do that? Crazy star sense!"
They do those things while not playing at their own computer in a booth. They've proven their game sense. Spades? Not so much.
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Anyone backing Spades want to explain him pulling his Marines back on Emtombed without seeing the tanks siege?
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On June 05 2012 12:54 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. Even i know a few gamers that stream cheated during when i frequently played playhem and stopped playing because playhem didnt put any delay(I even requested them to put some delay) on their stream a while back.
There goes the neighbourhood ...
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Those magic scans. God damn. Would love to have a statement from spades on that!
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On June 05 2012 12:54 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:51 pigmanbear wrote:
By CatZ and Illusion's reasoning, I'm a hacker ... the only obvious thing is his scan on Shakuras before he's scouted spawns ... that is enough to make me think that streamcheat or hack is going on. Really, you scan the minimap without looking at what you scanned, you run your SCV's into your opponent base to scout only to never even look in the base while the SCV is in the base? Do you magically know where and when your opponents army will move?
This and the 2:14 SCV scout with no vision of the opponent's base outside of the cursory knowledge he would have from the minimap-- that gives him little to no information.
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I don't actually agree with Catz here... There is no real coming back after two callouts for hacking.
If Spades comes back and says it now, he's fucked because he denied until he got absolutely roasted by a bunch of pros. He'd only be coming out because he got caught and apologizing because he got caught.
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Additionally: this was not the first time they watched these replays. They seemed biased because they had already come to a conclusion but that conclusion was reached independently BEFORE they went on stream. I have no idea what the original bias level was, but the stream seems so skewed now because they've analyses these replays before and are simply presenting their conclusions.
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The scan where it seemed clear that Spades had his camera-locked to me was when his mouse was scrolling upwards the moment before the scan on entombed (making it hard/implausable that he used the mini-map to scan). It seemed to me he scrolled into the fog of war he could see to make the scan, yet his screen locked. I'm not sure what other explanation there could be.
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That siege on the cliff on Emtombed versus Lucifron?
How can you possibly fucking explain that.
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If you're rank 1 GM with an amazing ratio and you play like a pro, you can give MKP a run for his money on your best days. Do you really think all this odd and fishy play is really something a top NA player would do? Sorry but the evidence was there anyone who says otherwise just doesn't understand the game on a high enough level.
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1) Camlocks when he watches the army
2) magic scans where he scrolls with his mouse to the point where he scans, than scanning outside of the vision (on minimap???) 2 inches from where he has been with his mouse
3) 50 replays of ladder --> in every game, he goes into the fog of war several times as you would do normally
in the 8 replays were he hacks, he NOT ONCE goes into the fog of war, cause he cant with his hack. the camera instead freezes.
i dont know how semi-pro players like cArn- can defend spades...
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On June 05 2012 12:54 JerKy wrote:
Well, the analysis from CatZ and co is pretty... convincing in my opinion (to say the least)
The lack of looking into the fog of war in the lucifron game was really damning in my eyes. Especially after CatZ showed what it looked like when he scouts and rallies on his stream. I'm just waiting for a confession at this point.
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On June 05 2012 12:54 veKtory wrote:
Anyone backing Spades want to explain him pulling his Marines back on Emtombed without seeing the tanks siege?
Watch any GSL level TvT and pulling back units when only vikings are visible is a common occurance.
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On June 05 2012 12:46 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:37 babylon wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. .................. Isn't this much more serious than this Spades scandal? o_O Kinda depends on what the "hints" were, what Leenock could see (could he see a stream?) and to be honest, while it would suck for him doing it, it would also kinda fall on MLG for allowing him into the playing area to give "hints" in the first place. It has potential to be big, but atm it's not really worth the time, and IMO this thread should stick to discussing Spades. You'd need sooooooooooooooooo much more evidence than just this post to say that Leenock or Koreans in general have done anything wrong.
I agree that it falls on MLG, but if it's true, I'd expect the Koreans to at least show the same amount of discretion that they show, say, in the GSL qualifiers, if that makes sense. Otherwise it just seems ... I can't come up with the right word for it. It's like how my parents sometimes talk shit about people in front of them in Chinese when the other people obviously can't understand, taking advantage of the fact the people they're talking about obviously don't understand them.
If it's between games (calming him down, giving pointers, etc.), it's fine if the tournament allows it, but even doing something as trivial as telling a player to "relax" when he's playing a game shouldn't be allowed imo because it's very difficult to police something like "you're only allowed to talk to players about X!" unless you just don't allow them to talk to the players at all.
Deserves another thread though. The stream cheating's interesting, and I'd like to know more about it.
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After watching CatZ stream of the analysis done by him, drewbie and illusion of the games PLUS other games. I am sold. I believe Spades is hacking.
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On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest.
I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck.
People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation
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On June 05 2012 12:53 swinkles wrote:
i'm actually impressed with catz and illusion's reasoning, very methodical
they are taking replays from standard ladder games that spades so generously offered, and comparing them to the showmatch game in question, highlighting unusual inconsitancies.
It was all very well reasoned. It is pretty much conclusive, imo.
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On June 05 2012 12:48 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased. not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence
Did you watch Catz Stream??? Explain the Impossible scans... Oh shit you cant...
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EPT
