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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 12:42 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote:
this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you Are you serious? Even when you let your scout leave their base without looking, you never look afterwards to see what you saw? Really?
You can see the gas in the mini-map yo
I don't even like spades, I saw him in the earlier days banning people left and right from his stream for basically nothing.
But this is nothing but a bunch of high school drama from 2 different cliques. You call this evidence? Lol
It appears that spades has to play perfect because anything odd that he does is something wrong with his play or "he just sucks/retarded/bad" w/e catz and company want to call it.
He gets picked apart by drops which is a whole other story.
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On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally.
If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all?
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By CatZ and Illusion's reasoning, I'm a hacker ... the only obvious thing is his scan on Shakuras before he's scouted spawns ... that is enough to make me think that streamcheat or hack is going on.
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On June 05 2012 12:48 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased. not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence
cArn what do you think about the never going through Fog Of War?
You're pretty competitive. Do you ever play games 100% through the minimap?
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On June 05 2012 12:51 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:42 Chicane wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote:
this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you Are you serious? Even when you let your scout leave their base without looking, you never look afterwards to see what you saw? Really? You can see the gas in the mini-map yo
Yes you can, but you WOULD look at your scv to look at the building at the left side.
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On June 05 2012 12:41 WHyTePoWeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:40 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
What's your defense for sending an SCV and not look at it when scouting?
How did you know he expanded? You don't lead with your tanks not knowing he doesn't have any of his own. You can't defend this. This isn't even Diamond level of play. This is blatant map-hacking. Isn't lgn notorious for map hacking?
Wait what? LOL
LgN is not LG.
You're thinking of LG, but those two members were removed. XD
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On June 05 2012 12:46 lisward wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:36 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 12:27 Grampz wrote:On June 05 2012 12:27 CaptainCharisma wrote:
So 7 games out of how many Spades has played? Thousands.
I've played far fewer games than that and I'm pretty sure I could dig up more than 7 replays where I make the perfect blind counters to stuff and make weird army positioning.
This thread is a disgrace. You're missing the fucking point. He allegedly cheated in a SHOWMATCH. FOR MONEY. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. Ladder games fine, go cheat your ass off. ladder pts don't mean shit (maybe they do blizz is weird) but when you are playing for money using a hack... ............ There was no money on the line. On June 05 2012 12:25 n.DieJokes wrote:
Yeah, this sounds like a crock of bullshit. If you go looking for maphacking obviously you'll find it, especially with the way the fp camera is setup. All the "evidence" of him hacking is inconclusive and fails to explain:
1) Why would he hack here, for nothing? When he is a pro player with everything on the line, why would he risk that with for no reward?
2) If he was map hacking, how the fuck does he lose? It doesn't make any sense, he should have easily been able to win but he doesn't. He'd have to be the worse map hacker in the history of the game; he has experience at it he should at least be decent. You people are spending too much time focusing on things he accidently gets right and not enough time on all the shit he misses that actually costs him the match.
3) Who is the op? Why should I lend any credence whatsoever to the accusations of a 1 post random? He hasn't posted since this thread went up, whats he doing? Nailed it. Why did he hack in BW with no money on the line. Why wasn't he the best player in the world in BW despite hacking. People are listening to OP because of the content of his post.
What does your first line have to do with anything in my post? I was correcting Grampz for saying this occured during a money showmatch (which isn't the case)
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At any rate, we have several people confirming that Spades has/does streamcheat/ghost, and we have an enormous amount of evidence that he maphacks.
Nothing left to see here. Spades cheats. As far as all of the koreans go, that's something for something else. This thread isn't about that.
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the accusation that koreans stream cheat regularly in showmatches and team leagues is more serious than accusing leenock of giving advice over someone's shoulder for an indeterminate amount of time during that someone's maybe open bracket game / maybe practice
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On June 05 2012 12:50 Emperor_Earth wrote:
Just wanted to extend some support to Spades. I believe the evidence is inconclusive for either party and that makes this whole drama so pointless.
It's not fair to will get vilified prior to being proven guilty.
Much of the arguments are so terrible because they are being proposed by laymen:
e.g.
Scouting like Spades already knew what to look for:
Duh.. that's what preparation pre-game is... Besides, even without specific preparation or even playing a certain person before it's pretty obvious what to scout for... Gas timings, expo timings, specific map spawn strats...
Coincidence of the now infamous 7:30 clicks
You make ~200+ clicks a minute and play dozens of games a day... Over the course of a 2year career, it's quite obvious that a crusading anti-fan will eventually find a game that happens to have two near-simultaneous set of clicks where one happens to counter another, even in sample size as small as one BoX series.
I was going to make this long and beautiful but then I realized I was arguing on the internet...
The people that know what they are talking about will get drowned out by the masses with their rah rahs and disinclinations to provide effortful, well thought-out responses.
Good luck Spades if you are innocent.
If not, well, I understand succumbing to temptation. There are only so many with the talent of a Lee Young Ho.
I cannot condone or even sympathize with cheating but I can at least empathize.
How is the evidence inconclusive? You clearly haven't watched replays from Spades POV.
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On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
What is this last part??? Clarification please...
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Those scans are impossible to pull off with or without the use of arrow keys.
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It worries me that people can still defend after watching all this. This kind of hard analysis needs to be done for more unsure cases...
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The most obvious proof is the difference between the ladder games and showmatch mechanics. In the ladder games, he always clicks into FOW to send units to a specific location on the map like a normal player, but in the showmatch games he apparently runs his entire game through the minimap without ever straying his vision into the FOW.
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Catz and Illusion pretty much nailed it. bibi spades! o/ once a hacker always a hacker?
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i'm actually impressed with catz and illusion's reasoning, very methodical
they are taking replays from standard ladder games that spades so generously offered, and comparing them to the showmatch game in question, highlighting unusual inconsitancies.
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On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally.
Even i know a few gamers that stream cheated during when i frequently played playhem and stopped playing because playhem didnt put any delay(I even requested them to put some delay) on their stream a while back.
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On June 05 2012 12:51 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all?
I'd like to second this. If there is widespread cheating in Korea it would merit it's own thread with it's own concrete evidence.
That stream cheating in team leagues and showmatches is really really bad if true.
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On June 05 2012 12:51 pigmanbear wrote:
By CatZ and Illusion's reasoning, I'm a hacker ... the only obvious thing is his scan on Shakuras before he's scouted spawns ... that is enough to make me think that streamcheat or hack is going on.
Really, you scan the minimap without looking at what you scanned, you run your SCV's into your opponent base to scout only to never even look in the base while the SCV is in the base? Do you magically know where and when your opponents army will move?
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I was very skeptical after reading the comments, but after watching the analysis, it's clear that he hacks
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EPT
