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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 12:16 ghrur wrote:
I don't understand why the single marine is so bad? Like, imagine 3 lanes. You send a marine to one, your xelnaga holds the other. if you see nothing happening in both, then your opponent is obviously moving through the third. :/
But he only sends 1 marine to that exact side the army is coming from and not sending one to the other flank like Drewbie and Illusion have brought up in the stream.
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On June 05 2012 12:41 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:38 Gamegene wrote:On June 05 2012 12:36 Sideburn wrote:
Not a biased stream.
"If you miss this, you are fucking retarded." -Catz
Arbiters of justice right here. lol, it's pretty blatant if you're actually competent at the game -_- YES! This fucking this, THIS X10000000000. Yeah minimap does exist. But imagine NEVER going through a fog of war in a game and 100% using the Minimap for EVERY little detail click, etc etc... If you play the game you understand that this is Hacks.
More importantly, those 50 replays he also provided, he does that every game. So obvious.
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On June 05 2012 12:45 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 Bagration wrote:Oh god, it's starting to seem like Savior 2010 all over again. Mirhi's accusations of Koreans cheating is especially concerning. I'm not even a particularly big fan of Leenock, but I can't imagine him intentionally cheating though. He's so young, and seems like a kid who just likes video games. I don't know if the scene is strong enough to survive a massive cheating/hacking scandal quite frankly.  Bringing that up right now... May be the only time it is necessary. You are damned right. Have they TOTALLY FORGOT WHAT RUINED BW IN THE FIRST PLACE? This is fucked. So fucked.
One witch hunt at a time friend.
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On June 05 2012 12:25 n.DieJokes wrote:
Yeah, this sounds like a crock of bullshit. If you go looking for maphacking obviously you'll find it, especially with the way the fp camera is setup. All the "evidence" of him hacking is inconclusive and fails to explain:
1) Why would he hack here, for nothing? When he is a pro player with everything on the line, why would he risk that with for no reward?
2) If he was map hacking, how the fuck does he lose? It doesn't make any sense, he should have easily been able to win but he doesn't. He'd have to be the worse map hacker in the history of the game; he has experience at it he should at least be decent. You people are spending too much time focusing on things he accidently gets right and not enough time on all the shit he misses that actually costs him the match.
3) Who is the op? Why should I lend any credence whatsoever to the accusations of a 1 post random? He hasn't posted since this thread went up, whats he doing?
1) motives are different and vary from person to person. if there is money on the line that might make a bigger incentive, but the pride and attention of beating a notable player is also incentive as well.
2) That's a poor way of rationalizing maphacking. might not be the best example but if a baseball player takes steroids, he doesn't hit a homerun every at bat (this is just a quick example). he won three games? against a player who many thought outmatched him. prior to the series everyone believed spades would be 5-0'd easily, at least i did anyways.
3) OP isn't accusing spades out of hear-say. he's actually offering concrete (in terms of points of interest) instead of just wildly firing accusations. this way, actual pros and high level players can corroborate this evidence, which in my opinion, they have done a pretty convincing job, with much more material to sort through.
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On June 05 2012 12:44 nastyyy wrote:
Now that CatZ is convincing his viewers that Spades cheats. He's basically fucked. To be fair this replay is pretty blatant evidence.
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On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this
Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck.
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On June 05 2012 12:37 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. .................. Isn't this much more serious than this Spades scandal? o_O
Kinda depends on what the "hints" were, what Leenock could see (could he see a stream?) and to be honest, while it would suck for him doing it, it would also kinda fall on MLG for allowing him into the playing area to give "hints" in the first place.
It has potential to be big, but atm it's not really worth the time, and IMO this thread should stick to discussing Spades.
You'd need sooooooooooooooooo much more evidence than just this post to say that Leenock or Koreans in general have done anything wrong.
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On June 05 2012 12:36 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:27 Grampz wrote:On June 05 2012 12:27 CaptainCharisma wrote:
So 7 games out of how many Spades has played? Thousands.
I've played far fewer games than that and I'm pretty sure I could dig up more than 7 replays where I make the perfect blind counters to stuff and make weird army positioning.
This thread is a disgrace. You're missing the fucking point. He allegedly cheated in a SHOWMATCH. FOR MONEY. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. Ladder games fine, go cheat your ass off. ladder pts don't mean shit (maybe they do blizz is weird) but when you are playing for money using a hack... ............ There was no money on the line. Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:25 n.DieJokes wrote:
Yeah, this sounds like a crock of bullshit. If you go looking for maphacking obviously you'll find it, especially with the way the fp camera is setup. All the "evidence" of him hacking is inconclusive and fails to explain:
1) Why would he hack here, for nothing? When he is a pro player with everything on the line, why would he risk that with for no reward?
2) If he was map hacking, how the fuck does he lose? It doesn't make any sense, he should have easily been able to win but he doesn't. He'd have to be the worse map hacker in the history of the game; he has experience at it he should at least be decent. You people are spending too much time focusing on things he accidently gets right and not enough time on all the shit he misses that actually costs him the match.
3) Who is the op? Why should I lend any credence whatsoever to the accusations of a 1 post random? He hasn't posted since this thread went up, whats he doing? Nailed it.
Why did he hack in BW with no money on the line.
Why wasn't he the best player in the world in BW despite hacking.
People are listening to OP because of the content of his post.
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On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation.
Artist is Korean and formerly on FoU, which was bought by FXO, so I assume he has contacts.
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On June 05 2012 12:44 Bagration wrote:Oh god, it's starting to seem like Savior 2010 all over again. Mirhi's accusations of Koreans cheating is especially concerning. I'm not even a particularly big fan of Leenock, but I can't imagine him intentionally cheating though. He's so young, and seems like a kid who just likes video games. I don't know if the scene is strong enough to survive a massive cheating/hacking scandal quite frankly.
People are freaking out about that leenock thing way too much. Are we sure it was in game for the tourny, not just a warm-up or practice game? I mean, I highly doubt that leenock would do something so obvious that would get him banned from such a big tourny.
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Entombed valley combined with the magic scan on Antiga = incontrovertible proof that Spades hacks.
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On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
How do you know Leenock was giving hints in Korean? Do you speak Korean? Do you have evidence to support this assertion? I think it's enough to accuse one player today, let alone sully the reputation of someone like Leenock, who is in a completely different stratosphere compared to Spades.
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On June 05 2012 12:45 Buddhism101 wrote:
Didn't read all 77 pages of this thread, but a really good way to get "evidence" though not definitive proof, is to see if he EVER looks at the fog of war in any of the games he is allegedly cheating in. If he doesn't (because the cheat makes it impossible for camera to show him looking @ fog of war) I'd say that's the most suspicious / incriminating evidence.
This is one of the major things CatZ and them are pointing out.
Sort of similar to a way to catch maphackers in BW, the differences between maphacked games and ladder games.
The way Spades views and doesn't view fog of war, the way he scans, the way he scouts, the way he plays in general is completely different between suspect games and ladder games.
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On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote:
this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you
You're applying bad player logic to a competent player, it just doesn't work that way.
He never looks in his opponents base, ever. At least according to his vision (because of the camera lock on the hack)
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On June 05 2012 12:43 furerkip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote:
this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you Oh, so a guy that was once top 1 GM on NA is at the same level as you. Good to know that he sucks. They've literally said, people in silver league won't understand, but if you're GM you will. Now, I'm not GM, but I do know they have much faster APM than either of us usually, so they should be able to keep up with the "simple stuff". Why would a pro not be able to keep up with the simple stuff...
GM's don't all have universally faster APM. Just on average. You can get to GM with low APM if those actions are all the correct ones. Your question is fairly vague.
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Catz's stream pointing everything out is the end of spades.
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On June 05 2012 12:41 Trict wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:25 n.DieJokes wrote:
Yeah, this sounds like a crock of bullshit. If you go looking for maphacking obviously you'll find it, especially with the way the fp camera is setup. All the "evidence" of him hacking is inconclusive and fails to explain:
1) Why would he hack here, for nothing? When he is a pro player with everything on the line, why would he risk that with for no reward?
2) If he was map hacking, how the fuck does he lose? It doesn't make any sense, he should have easily been able to win but he doesn't. He'd have to be the worse map hacker in the history of the game; he has experience at it he should at least be decent. You people are spending too much time focusing on things he accidently gets right and not enough time on all the shit he misses that actually costs him the match.
3) Who is the op? Why should I lend any credence whatsoever to the accusations of a 1 post random? He hasn't posted since this thread went up, whats he doing? Exactly right, one of the few clearly thought out points in the thread.
And this clearly what ppl say when they didnt even care to watch the replays, he didnt look at fog not even once 6 entire games. and his ladder games show otherwise. and there is like 50 more bullshit he does. he doenst hack in a retard way like preventing every drop, he does it very carefully to seems legit. he hacks is confirmed.
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On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote:
this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you
Yes.... but should a supposed "pro" that plays this game fulltime do that? Does he suck? etc?
what?
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On June 05 2012 12:38 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:36 Sideburn wrote:
Not a biased stream.
"If you miss this, you are fucking retarded." -Catz
Arbiters of justice right here. lol, it's pretty blatant if you're actually competent at the game -_-
Competent in terms of what ? Playing how you would ?
So White-Ra is incompetent cos he plays in a way that is very unlike you would ?
Please, SC2 isnt Neuroscience, even a 12 yr old can understand SC2 just fine.
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On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased.
not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence
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EPT
