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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
This reminds me of that time i was on a jury and we all agreed the guy was guilty. But in order to convict we had to say that we believed the prosecution had proven beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty. And we couldn't do that.
Here's some things i found inadequate
1) Demonstrating the scan functionality of the off screen thing. They needed to go into a custom game themselves and show us why it was impossible.
2) Showing clearly many examples of the actual clicking into the fog which he supposedly normally did.
3) Run over examples of hacking multiple times. For instance in sports when they go to the video ref to rule if something happened they show the same scene it over and over again so you're clear 100% you know what you're watching. CatZ failed to do this to my satisfaction.
I could go into specific examples where they failed to go into enough detail and repeatedly show the offending vision clearly but that was most of them. They'd show it once or twice, he's pause and i wouldn't know if he had paused or the screen was 'locked'. It was a clusterfuck.
So overall while i'm probably 85% confident based on what i've seen that he's guilty, i'm not satisfied enough that they've proven it because for me the onus is on them to prove it and they've not done that sufficiently. And i'm not even sitting here with massively high standards (nor do i even really know who Spades is beyond it being a famliar name). Just regular beyond reasonable doubt crap any decent democratic legal system would require.
Fun show though i hope you got plenty of ad revenue 
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If you pro players know people who stream cheat specifically you should just come out and say it, not drop vague comments, otherwise it throws everyone under suspicion.
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On June 05 2012 13:01 TechNoTrance wrote:
I would really like to see an explanation of how his scanning "technique" changed so drastically between regular ladder games and important ones like vs Lucifron. It really does seem physically impossible as well as almost completely improbable.
yeah this is what really makes me lean towards him hacking
to have such an inconsistent core mechanic going from the replay games to his streamed games is weird
it would be like a zerg switching between different types of inject methods
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At first I didn't think Spades hacked, from all the rumors because I use to watch his stream way back when foreign streaming was popular. But now that Catz/Illusion brought out the analysis its so clear that he hacks. You cannot deny that he has hacked in the past. It is only a matter of how he should deal with it in the future. Hopefully he comes clean, but until then I have no respect for spades.
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I mean... if you just watched CatZ's stream and you don't think the guy hacked in those games they showed, you need to obtain a CAT scan.
They showed concrete evidence and proved it to 5,000 people on stream and everyone knows it.
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On June 05 2012 12:54 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. Even i know a few gamers that stream cheated during when i frequently played playhem and stopped playing because playhem didnt put any delay(I even requested them to put some delay) on their stream a while back.
Damn
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On June 05 2012 13:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest. I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck. People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation theres a silly amount of coincidences and funny little moves that wouldnt hold water on their own but taken as a whole are pretty suspicious. that on top of the screen movements and apparent screen blocking, particularly in comparison to his play when hes streaming and not hacking, its a pretty convincing argument.
I agree with IdrA, anyone who plays SC2 that's not terribad at the game should see spades is hacking.
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spades u best win mlg anaheim, it's your only chance, which wont happen.
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On June 05 2012 12:58 memcpy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:54 Sideburn wrote:
I'm not defending Spades. To be honest, if I had to put money on it, I would chalk it up to him hacking. This is based on him never checking the fog of war, his past history, and his questionable responses in this thread.
That being said, the absolute bullshit going on on Catz stream and in this thread pisses me off nearly as much as his alleged hacking. Conjecture and suspicion can NEVER be taken as "concrete" evidence. You can certainly say that all of these things suggest his guilt, but Catz has just straight up declared he is hacking and you are a fucking retard if you disagree. People, pros included, are just frothing at the mouth to publicly crucify this guy. What if he was/is innocent? This whole incident would still ruin his career.
This whole incident is intensely saddening for me, not because an insignificant pro is cheating, but because of the manner in which the community responded to it. I agree that the whole situation was handled pretty poorly but just curious, what do you propose should have been done to determine whether or not he is guilty?
That is a really good question, and I'll admit that I don't have a perfect answer for it. With an overall governing body like Kespa, it would be easy enough to address it behind closed doors. However, that is obviously not an option in this situation. The best course of action I can come up with is to go directly to the team and present the evidence. If it really is as damning as everyone seems to think, they will obviously see that. Of course then you have to deal with the integrity of the team itself. Obviously they are free to handle it however they want, perhaps with a simple slap on the wrist, which would be unsatisfactory. Even so, I think going to the team before going public just makes so much more sense. Then again, that may have been done in this case, I have no idea.
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On June 05 2012 13:01 storkman wrote:
Idk why everyone is so butt hurt over him hacking i gaurentee 99% of you will never play him on ladder and even if he does win on ladder what does he gain? There isn't a cash prize of a million dollars if he is number one on gm. Him cheating which looks pretty apparent to me really doesn't help him get any better at Sc so really if anything its hurting him get better at Sc.
No i'm not saying hacking is right or that he doesn't hack but who cares? Yes cheating is wrong but it's not like he is using cheating to gain anything real(as much as many of you think ladder points are real they really aren't) So for everyone hating him for doing this it's quite ridiculous.
and to sideburn i agree 100 percent that fact that everyone here would get this angry and upset is really silly and extremely sad that a community as great as this one would lash out and try to ruin this guys career because he got some extra ladder points.
Ignorant poster, please realize this is an upset over a showmatch with actual money on the line, and that no one wants to have cheaters within our fold, whether they're laddering or competing.
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This is clearly a witch hunt. I looked over a lot of the so called "evidence" and indeed a lot of it can be explained by logical decisions. On top of that many of the accusations of the camera being blocked are clearly not true. The first that the OP indicated was a camera block was when Spades was transferring workers to gas. If evidence is flawed then the accusers argument loses validity.
Even if some evidence points to maphacking this is a completely inappropriate way to approach the matter. If he turns out to not maphack then this is a serious negative blow to his career. This is his means of living and the matter should be approached delicately. I hope this thread is closed with a clear statement from the moderators.
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On June 05 2012 12:58 SeaSuh wrote:
After watching Catz and company look at the replays the biggest part of evidence is when he selected his whole army and unsieges and moves his army to the north side without even knowing that his opponents army is there while looking at a random spot outside his third for over 10 sec.
Yea, that was what convinced me.
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On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this
Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not.
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Holy mother of shit, people are posting on this thread faster than I can read. Gawd, this place gas gotten 85 pages in 8 hours, talk about a hot thread.
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The evidence given by Catz, Illusion and co is pretty damning. The blatant lack of scouting, obvious responses to unseen units and barely off screen scans can't really be explained away given how many instances there were in the relatively small amount of games they analyzed.
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On June 05 2012 13:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest. I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck. People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation theres a silly amount of coincidences and funny little moves that wouldnt hold water on their own but taken as a whole are pretty suspicious. that on top of the screen movements and apparent screen blocking, particularly in comparison to his play when hes streaming and not hacking, its a pretty convincing argument.
this is about as well as I can sum it up. if they were all singular events, they wouldn't even be considered honestly, but looking at the big picture, it's really difficult to claim they're all coincidence.
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On June 05 2012 13:01 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:52 NExt wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased. not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence cArn what do you think about the never going through Fog Of War? You're pretty competitive. Do you ever play games 100% through the minimap? I don't know how maphacks work, but isn't not going through fog of war to check what your hack is supposed to reveal make it pointless ? In this case he would only see unit movements on the minimap but he still has to know what is moving so ... I'm probably missing something there .. Playing 100% throught the minimap is just not possible, means you never scan to get info.
The hack makes it so he can never look into the fog of war so that it does not look like he hacked.
The person is asking if you can play only w/ minimap because that is what spades would have to be doing.
I know someone will explain this more clearly than me, sorry for that.
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To the window \('.' \) to the walls (/ '.')/
User was banned for this post.
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It wouldn't be so convincing if they didn't show a few regular ladder games. How can someone play with minimap only and never look in the fog of war for about 8 games in a showmatch and then go on ladder and not use minimap for scans and be constantly in fog of war to do things. That parts doesn't make really much sense.
Also, the game on Tal-darim where he moves his whole army for a drop he didn't see.
Those scans were pretty oddly done too. Why would you start to scroll up and then use the minimap. It's so inefficient and makes no sense when you can just go 1/2 an inch higher with your mouse to scan.
They were pretty fuckin biased right from the start but even then it's hard not to think he doesn't hack. If you don't agree, download the reps from the showmatches and look at it for yourself at the times they stated to look at.
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"Pro" players coming into this thread defending Spades without even watching the CONCLUSIVE evidence. The camera locks + the magic scan is undisputable evidence of his guilt. Undisputable. It was shown several times and the actions made no logical sense if you assume he isn't cheating. All the circumstantial evidence just compounds it even further. Take hisn history and Franks testimony of his character and this is the biggest no brainer in the history of investigations. If this was a real offense and a court trial he would be recieving a guilty sentence in 99 out of a 100 cases.
Please stop jumping on the bandwagon of trying to apear fair and reasonable (or scientific) when you're ignoring VERY strong evidence.
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EPT
