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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 13:01 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:52 NExt wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased. not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence cArn what do you think about the never going through Fog Of War? You're pretty competitive. Do you ever play games 100% through the minimap? I don't know how maphacks work, but isn't not going through fog of war to check what your hack is supposed to reveal make it pointless ? In this case he would only see unit movements on the minimap but he still has to know what is moving so ... I'm probably missing something there .. Playing 100% throught the minimap is just not possible, means you never scan to get info.
In some games he did play 100% through the minimap (seemingly).
The hack has a camera-lock. This means that if he has the hack turned on the replay will never show him looking at the fog of war. He literally played whole games without looking at the fog of war on the replays.
Edit: or perhaps the camera in the replay is buggy.
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On June 05 2012 13:01 storkman wrote:
Idk why everyone is so butt hurt over him hacking i gaurentee 99% of you will never play him on ladder and even if he does win on ladder what does he gain? There isn't a cash prize of a million dollars if he is number one on gm. Him cheating which looks pretty apparent to me really doesn't help him get any better at Sc so really if anything its hurting him get better at Sc.
No i'm not saying hacking is right or that he doesn't hack but who cares? Yes cheating is wrong but it's not like he is using cheating to gain anything real(as much as many of you believe that ladder points are real to be truth full they aren't) So for everyone hating him for doing this it's quite ridiculous.
and to sideburn i agree 100 percent that the fact that everyone here would get this angry and upset is really silly and extremely sad and that a community as great as this one would lash out and try to ruin this guys career because he got some extra ladder points.
he could play in an online tournament that has a prize money? it would be a shame of a hacker got 2nd place at tsl4 wouldnt you think
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A large amount of the evidence that is presented on the ROOTCatz stream is fairly interesting in terms of scan locations, and play styles across a small number of games. I feel like this cheating thing is getting done way too much, it is ruining the fun and competitve nature that is StarCraft II. I feel like Spades does have to make a statement regarding these accusations, but I also feel like some people are taking it into their own hands to track down and call people out for cheating. This shouldnt be a glorified witch hunt, let the proof be in the pudding, go to a LAN, perform and redeem yourself as a player.
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After investigating a heavy amount of evidence, and having used hacks years ago in BW, and being very familiar with the evidences of sc2 hacks, it is very apparent to me that Spades is using some kind of vision hack. VERY suspect at the least.... confirmed hacker by a huge amount of competent reviewers, and should be dealt with accordingly.
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On June 05 2012 12:54 veKtory wrote:
Anyone backing Spades want to explain him pulling his Marines back on Emtombed without seeing the tanks siege?
Ehh... that alone wouldn't indicate map hacking to me. He could have realized while chasing vikings that it was likely there would be siege support. It was strange that he turned around right at the perfect time, but not enough to suggest he was hacking.
There is much more convincing incidences like sieging up the tanks on the high ground in such a strange location.
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On June 05 2012 13:04 lowreezy08 wrote:
spades u best win mlg anaheim, it's your only chance, which wont happen.
Wait, spades is invited to MLG Anaheim? WTF.
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On June 05 2012 13:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest. I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck. People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation theres a silly amount of coincidences and funny little moves that wouldnt hold water on their own but taken as a whole are pretty suspicious. that on top of the screen movements and apparent screen blocking, particularly in comparison to his play when hes streaming and not hacking, its a pretty convincing argument.
this is what really convinced me. Yeah, each individual thing as its own, it can be looked at as luck. But when you see one after another after another, you start to wonder. And then how he played completely different from his stream... Its not looking good for Spades. Oh and his former team manager (a team that he left in an odd way btw) comes out and says he hacks.
Its at the point where this isn't a random witch hunt. There is quite a bit of damning evidence against him.
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Always having vikings but never using them for vision and instead just blindly sending siege tanks against his opponents or below highground is just too much imo.
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On June 05 2012 12:54 Sideburn wrote:
I'm not defending Spades. To be honest, if I had to put money on it, I would chalk it up to him hacking. This is based on him never checking the fog of war, his past history, and his questionable responses in this thread.
That being said, the absolute bullshit going on on Catz stream and in this thread pisses me off nearly as much as his alleged hacking. Conjecture and suspicion can NEVER be taken as "concrete" evidence. You can certainly say that all of these things suggest his guilt, but Catz has just straight up declared he is hacking and you are a fucking retard if you disagree. People, pros included, are just frothing at the mouth to publicly crucify this guy. What if he was/is innocent? This whole incident would still ruin his career.
This whole incident is intensely saddening for me, not because an insignificant pro is cheating, but because of the manner in which the community responded to it.
Catz and Co. stated that they already watched the replays and took notes before they even did this publicly. They had already drawn their own conclusion with out chat or this thread to influence them. They obviously did their homework instead of jumping in with both feet.
Who is to say that if the evidence pointed in the other direction that catz and co. wouldnt have came out and said 'We looked at the replays and fpvods and Spades didn't cheat" that wasn't the case they concluded before streaming that he cheated based on everything they looked at. You can call it bullshit all day long but we all can only assume catz would have defended him if the evidence showed that.
He even gave his own reason why he thinks he cheated from a Pro perspective. It is what it is no need to get upset about imo. I think what catz did was at least make the debate about arrow keys on computers and magic scanning because of good sense and all that bullshit and put it to rest.
It at least cuts through most of the speculation so people can move past this. If no one did this then it would go on forever at least now some people feel a sense of resolution to the situation and can move on instead of an even more divided crowd on the subject who just yells back and forth at each other.
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On June 05 2012 13:02 phiinix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:49 efren wrote:On June 05 2012 12:45 Grampz wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 Bagration wrote:Oh god, it's starting to seem like Savior 2010 all over again. Mirhi's accusations of Koreans cheating is especially concerning. I'm not even a particularly big fan of Leenock, but I can't imagine him intentionally cheating though. He's so young, and seems like a kid who just likes video games. I don't know if the scene is strong enough to survive a massive cheating/hacking scandal quite frankly.  Bringing that up right now... May be the only time it is necessary. You are damned right. Have they TOTALLY FORGOT WHAT RUINED BW IN THE FIRST PLACE? This is fucked. So fucked. sc2 is done if there was a massive cheating/hacking scandal as a esport I'll just point you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sporting_scandals
u do notice that those are physical sports?
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On June 05 2012 13:02 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:37 babylon wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. .................. Isn't this much more serious than this Spades scandal? o_O Yeah, I don't want to believe it. Leenock, a cheater. He's too cute to be the next Savior. I couldn't give a log of hardened crap about Spades, but not Leenock!
Exactly. Spades being caught cheating would definitely be bad, but I can't imagine Leenock being a malicious cheater, and if worst comes to worst, I just hope that it was like Coca-Byun, where it was a case of youthful naivete, rather than malicious intent.
Jesus, never realized how many skeletons were in the closet of the pro SC2 scene.
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On June 05 2012 13:03 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:51 SgtCoDFish wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all? You answered your own question.
So you aren't going to make a thread about it? I understand not wanting to risk your career, which would obviously be put at stake with such a huge accusation, but if that stream cheating shit is true it really should be brought to light. Obviously you shouldn't take the hit for it, but I wish a number of people (since lots of people seem to know about it) would come out and lift the veil. Eventually someone's gonna come clean and by then it may just destroy everything.
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On June 05 2012 13:03 NinetySix wrote:
I mean... if you just watched CatZ's stream and you don't think the guy hacked in those games they showed, you need to obtain a CAT scan.
They showed concrete evidence and proved it to 5,000 people on stream and everyone knows it.
THIS x1000000000
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On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not.
You clearly have no idea who you are talking to.
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On June 05 2012 13:05 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:04 lowreezy08 wrote:
spades u best win mlg anaheim, it's your only chance, which wont happen. Wait, spades is invited to MLG Anaheim? WTF.
Open bracket.
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On June 05 2012 12:57 Crowned wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest. I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck. People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation and never ever looking into the fog of war during the showmatch? But always looking into it in the 50 ladder games?
To me, that is the more damning fact than any individual incident. Still, nothing here is conclusive.
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I don't think any arguments should really be based on sc2's replay cam follow thing, it is, to put it bluntly, a piece of shit, it can't register very fast movements and it smoothes out everything.
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On June 05 2012 13:01 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:52 NExt wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased. not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence cArn what do you think about the never going through Fog Of War? You're pretty competitive. Do you ever play games 100% through the minimap? I don't know how maphacks work, but isn't not going through fog of war to check what your hack is supposed to reveal make it pointless ? In this case he would only see unit movements on the minimap but he still has to know what is moving so ... I'm probably missing something there .. Playing 100% throught the minimap is just not possible, means you never scan to get info.
The hack supposedly, locks your camera in the replay when you look into a Fog Of War. So we never actually see him go into fog of war. ever, never ever go through Fog Of War ( which is the strongest basis for 'Magic Scan' ).
And then CatZ showed us normal ladder replay games, where Spades frequently had full screen Fog Of War etc.. etc..
As a player, thats pretty concrete, mechanically. Maybe he got lucky, maybe he has past gaming experience and history with the players. But the fact Spades never goes into Fog Of War sold it for me, as a player, I can't I understand how someone would never have a full screen FoW.
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Defending Spades without even looking into the situation is just as bad. Atleast look at some evidence and come up with your own opinion.
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On June 05 2012 13:00 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:07 Spades wrote:
I have a team, I have sponsors. My career is basically crippled now, even if completely absolved. The OP was out for my blood, and this is how easy it is to destroy someones career. It's impossible for someone to find proof i hacked, because I didn't. It's all circumstantial nonsense, that can't be proven either way. If you want to find suspicious actions, just turn on first person view for anyone in any game and you will find some. I'm being screwed over by this fact, and I hope someone finds an actual foolproof method to detect hacks so this is avoided for others in the future.
So how do i recover something like this? I would know to know how. I really find Spades posts incredibly suspicious and self-defeatist. Instead of trying to be positive and forgive and forget as to be the bigger man if he did not hack, he keeps making it seem as if this has done irreversible damage because of these simple accusations. Come on, people don't lose their entire careers by mudslinging without any decent proof. That is what makes Spades seem incredibly suspicious to me, especially because he has been caught maphacking before. Instead of trying to be as upfront about it as possible, and explain every single accusation thrown at him right back in the accuser's face, he is trying to hide and be as isolated as possible from the situation. After all, if he did not hack and is not a hacker, then wouldn't someone such as a PROGAMER have the balls to cement a defense stronger than what any no namer - especially one with just one post- has to say? After all, he has all the resources(his replays). Wouldn't it give him good publicity to do so? Wouldn't it show his sponsors that he is able to stand up for himself and control situations regarding him? Wouldn't it gain some admiration and fans? The fact that he is trying to garner empathy in such a way that tries to completely ignore the accusations made at him raises some eyebrows.The only reason I can think of is him trying to lay as low as possible and keep attention off the claims given in the OP and by Illusion. The camera locks still have not been answered directly by him with clarity. His claims are all extremely vague and dodge the subject, claiming "chance", "luck", and "randomness" as his only solid defenses.
This, this, this!!
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EPT
