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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 12:52 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:48 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased. not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence cArn what do you think about the never going through Fog Of War? You're pretty competitive. Do you ever play games 100% through the minimap?
I don't know how maphacks work, but isn't not going through fog of war to check what your hack is supposed to reveal make it pointless ? In this case he would only see unit movements on the minimap but he still has to know what is moving so ... I'm probably missing something there ..
Playing 100% throught the minimap is just not possible, means you never scan to get info.
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On June 05 2012 12:56 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest. I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck. People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation
theres a silly amount of coincidences and funny little moves that wouldnt hold water on their own but taken as a whole are pretty suspicious. that on top of the screen movements and apparent screen blocking, particularly in comparison to his play when hes streaming and not hacking, its a pretty convincing argument.
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Wow i cant believe i was a fan of this guy jesus f i n g CHRIST
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On June 05 2012 12:58 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:52 -Kaiser- wrote:
At any rate, we have several people confirming that Spades has/does streamcheat/ghost, and we have an enormous amount of evidence that he maphacks.
Nothing left to see here. Spades cheats. As far as all of the koreans go, that's something for something else. This thread isn't about that. The evidence mounted against Spades is almost entirely circumstantial. That's not a lot of evidence at all. It's really just replays from one show match. This isn't enough to conclusively incriminate a player of map hacking, and without it you can't simply label a player a map hacker based on so little evidence; or many more pro players would evaporate from SC2. You've even bundled in hearsay that he streamcheats as evidence that he'd probably maphack too; which was only ignited from questionable decisions/actions in ONE series. If he's really hacking then let the community members (who are actually looking into this) do their work to incriminate or exonerate spades. It's not like hes boarding the next plane with millions of dollars. The evidence really isn't conclusive yet.
Actually, It's quite conclusive. Sorry but you're just dead wrong, it was soo obvious he was cheating. If that was a gold player making all those mistakes and playing that risky/dumb I would agree with this. But it was someone who was R1 GM and took 3 games off of LucifroN albeit he was cheating.. Anyone who denies that he was cheating shouldn't be taken seriously.
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In one of Spades posts he says, "Watch vods of my stream, i always look at fog, then scan immediately afterwards." In a lot of the replays, he doesn't do that. >_>
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Trust the pros when they say if someone is or isn't hacking. They know what to look for in a person's play and what constitutes suspicious play.
If you are on the fence, you must trust that players like Catz know what they are talking about and even though you can't 'see' what shows Spades is hacking in these replays, every top player can see it clear as crystal.
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I would really like to see an explanation of how his scanning "technique" changed so drastically between regular ladder games and important ones like vs Lucifron. It really does seem physically impossible as well as almost completely improbable.
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Idk why everyone is so butt hurt over him hacking i gaurentee 99% of you will never play him on ladder and even if he does win on ladder what does he gain? There isn't a cash prize of a million dollars if he is number one on gm. Him cheating which looks pretty apparent to me really doesn't help him get any better at Sc so really if anything its hurting him get better at Sc.
No i'm not saying hacking is right or that he doesn't hack but who cares? Yes cheating is wrong but it's not like he is using cheating to gain anything real(as much as many of you believe that ladder points are real to be truth full they aren't) So for everyone hating him for doing this it's quite ridiculous.
and to sideburn i agree 100 percent that the fact that everyone here would get this angry and upset is really silly and extremely sad and that a community as great as this one would lash out and try to ruin this guys career because he got some extra ladder points.
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Ya I might agree but didn't he just use the map hacks against Lucifron in a showmatch?
If all of this is true about spades that will really make me kind of sad. I really used to like watching his stream here on TL but i feel like he has been in a slump lately, falling in rank and in performances. So maybe this could be part of the reasoning for him doing it.
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On June 05 2012 12:59 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:58 veKtory wrote:On June 05 2012 12:56 CortoMontez wrote:On June 05 2012 12:54 veKtory wrote:
Anyone backing Spades want to explain him pulling his Marines back on Emtombed without seeing the tanks siege? Watch any GSL level TvT and pulling back units when only vikings are visible is a common occurance. Why did he stim to run after them in the first place and pull back for no reason then? those GSL TvTs.. they get shot AT LEAST once.
What's to stop a korean/non-korean who knows his opponent has tanks from attempting to anticipate the siege and pull back? Too circumstantial.
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On June 05 2012 12:49 efren wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:45 Grampz wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 Bagration wrote:Oh god, it's starting to seem like Savior 2010 all over again. Mirhi's accusations of Koreans cheating is especially concerning. I'm not even a particularly big fan of Leenock, but I can't imagine him intentionally cheating though. He's so young, and seems like a kid who just likes video games. I don't know if the scene is strong enough to survive a massive cheating/hacking scandal quite frankly.  Bringing that up right now... May be the only time it is necessary. You are damned right. Have they TOTALLY FORGOT WHAT RUINED BW IN THE FIRST PLACE? This is fucked. So fucked. sc2 is done if there was a massive cheating/hacking scandal as a esport
I'll just point you here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sporting_scandals
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On June 05 2012 12:37 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. .................. Isn't this much more serious than this Spades scandal? o_O
Yeah, I don't want to believe it. Leenock, a cheater. He's too cute to be the next Savior.
I couldn't give a log of hardened crap about Spades, but not Leenock!
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On June 05 2012 12:59 efren wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:54 dde wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. Even i know a few gamers that stream cheated during when i frequently played playhem and stopped playing because playhem didnt put any delay(I even requested them to put some delay) on their stream a while back. damn its all coming out now
And now everything comes out of the closet
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Guys the reason why his scans are not in the centre isn't because of 4:3 or resolution its because hes using a zoom/scroll hack. It allows you to zoom out more than the games max. Thats why his scans arn't centered, thats why he reacts to things just outside of his view.
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On June 05 2012 13:00 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:07 Spades wrote:
I have a team, I have sponsors. My career is basically crippled now, even if completely absolved. The OP was out for my blood, and this is how easy it is to destroy someones career. It's impossible for someone to find proof i hacked, because I didn't. It's all circumstantial nonsense, that can't be proven either way. If you want to find suspicious actions, just turn on first person view for anyone in any game and you will find some. I'm being screwed over by this fact, and I hope someone finds an actual foolproof method to detect hacks so this is avoided for others in the future.
So how do i recover something like this? I would know to know how. I really find Spades posts incredibly suspicious and self-defeatist. Instead of trying to be positive and forgive and forget as to be the bigger man if he did not hack, he keeps making it seem as if this has done irreversible damage because of these simple accusations. Come on, people don't lose their entire careers by mudslinging without any decent proof. That is what makes Spades seem incredibly suspicious to me, especially because he has been caught maphacking before. Instead of trying to be as upfront about it as possible, and explain every single accusation thrown at him right back in the accuser's face, he is trying to hide and be as isolated as possible from the situation. After all, if he did not hack and is not a hacker, then wouldn't someone such as a PROGAMER have the balls to cement a defense stronger than what any no namer - especially one with just one post- has to say? After all, he has all the resources(his replays). Wouldn't it give him good publicity to do so? Wouldn't it show his sponsors that he is able to stand up for himself and control situations regarding him? Wouldn't it gain some admiration and fans? The fact that he is trying to garner empathy in such a way that tries to completely ignore the accusations made at him raises some eyebrows.The only reason I can think of is him trying to lay as low as possible and keep attention off the claims given in the OP and by Illusion. The camera locks still have not been answered directly by him with clarity. His claims are all extremely vague and dodge the subject, claiming "chance", "luck", and "randomness" as his only solid defenses.
This hits the spots.
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On June 05 2012 12:51 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all?
You answered your own question.
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On June 05 2012 12:59 Alacar wrote:
Can we get another pro's opinion on the "Magic Scans" of spades? I agree with CatZ and don't see how it is possible, but would like to hear what people like cArn have to say about it.
Nerchio already gave it
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On June 05 2012 12:48 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:46 lowreezy08 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this you seem to be on spades nuts, it's quite apparent you're biased. not really, it's just retarded that someone gets shat on like this because he has half a brain.It is completely obvious to conclude that lucifron was gonna attack from that back alley after getting scanned at your nat while you see nothing coming from the middle. How is that any kind of evidence
You can't possibly explain the 0.001 inch re-siege with 0 vision on Cloud Kingdom.
Face it, he's hacking trash. It's been proved, sadly.
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On June 05 2012 12:57 -Kaiser- wrote:
People who are saying the CatZ stream sounds biased are forgetting that they reviewed all of the replays beforehand and reached a conclusion so that they knew what to analyze when they came on air.
Exactly, and had they reviewed the replays and seen that he was not hacking, they would have had the whole stream session to be defending him to the masses.
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Canada13379 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest. I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck. People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation theres a silly amount of coincidences and funny little moves that wouldnt hold water on their own but taken as a whole are pretty suspicious. that on top of the screen movements and apparent screen blocking, particularly in comparison to his play when hes streaming and not hacking, its a pretty convincing argument.
I just need to point out, this is one of the few well mannered and reasonable and well written posts I have ever read made by Idra. Damn, man you've come far, theres a reason I'll always be a fan.
On topic:
This Catz thing made it more than obvious he was hacking. IMO too much is going on all at once for it to be pure coincidence.
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EPT
