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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 10:30 babylon wrote:
This thread should be closed until some actual pros volunteer to sit down and analyze the 100 games Spades has posted (or however many they want to look at). At this point, everything is just circumstantial, and there's a lot of misinformation floating around regarding how this supposed camera lock hack functions.
Cats, drewbie, illusion, and tt1 are bout to analyze about 50+ games on Cats stream after SOTG
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On June 05 2012 10:19 andReslic wrote:Also, who says he didnt delete replays? i dont think this proves something.
At least it will demonstrate if there are as many occurences of "camera blocks" in his average ladder matches as there are in the showmatch replays.
If there aren't, that might raise further questions, though.
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On June 05 2012 10:35 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
What if they are basing their opinions not on the guy with 1 post, but on their own observations from the replays? I guess nobody else can develop their own opinions, its all based on the 1 post OP
I bet you 80% of the posters in this thread haven't even actually looked at the replays.
How many of those 'at work' do you think have honestly looked at the replays?
This thread isn't constructive at all, but rather a way to shit on a player and destroy his career.
There are people who deserved to be outed from the community for their actions through these witchhunts (Destiny, Impa), and people who didn't (Katu, Orb, lastshadow). Guess what? None of these witchhunts were ever justified.
Who's fault is it though? Pros and Casters on signed teams which deem themselves as an 'impartial' authority on the community.
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Also, can anyone add, when was this lucifron showmatch?
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spades is not a hacker , i disapprove
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You know what sucks about these accusations?
There is NOTHING that Spades could do that would alleviate suspicion. He could stream every game he ever plays from now on for the rest of his life, and people would still say, "Well, of course he doesn't map hack now! He got caught!"
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On June 05 2012 10:42 Moonling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:30 babylon wrote:
This thread should be closed until some actual pros volunteer to sit down and analyze the 100 games Spades has posted (or however many they want to look at). At this point, everything is just circumstantial, and there's a lot of misinformation floating around regarding how this supposed camera lock hack functions. Cats, drewbie, illusion, and tt1 are bout to analyze about 50+ games on Cats stream after SOTG
50+ GAMES???
o________________o
Wow. I almost think they'd be better off picking a random sample of 10-15 games (def. not 50) and spending the rest of their time practicing and analyzing their own replays...
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He posted the ladder replays, which have more than enough proof in them as to if he's hacking or not. No use saying anything more until the CatZ show tonight / pros go over the ladder replays.
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On June 05 2012 10:41 whiterabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:26 Artok wrote:On June 05 2012 10:21 whiterabbit wrote:
It is like community where majority of people are mediocre at game (me included) is feeding their self-esteem by showing how much power they have.
Doesn't matter if Spades somehow proves he never used hacks in SC2, as someone with background of BW player who used hacks, his career or at least image is ruined.
I can't believe this topic didn't get closed/deleted giving there is no real proof. And I love how few other pros jumped to throw cheap accusations basically saying "Hey, I think you are hacker but if you are not...well... sowwy!"
Hacker should be called out and surgically removed from the scene, but ruining someone's career without real proof is beyond bad and as I said, I can't believe TeamLiquid is assisting at doing so. probably the best post in the thread, im kind of sad that this whole thing is still going without even an opinion of lucifron that he played against. There is no opinion of LucifroN who played those games but we surely have entire PR machine (twitter/reddit) going from CatZ and friends who will do replay analysis, at least someone will benefit from this...
Catz' bank account thanks to the viewers and the ads? To me, Catz really hit a low on this thread, i guess he doesn't like Spades, but trying to attract viewers thanks to this drama is simply disgusting. He could at least do it pro-bono (without ads) and try to spin it as doing a service to the community.
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I've went through most of the games (5 first ones) and here's the thing I noted. I've only went once through the replays so I am aware that I must have missed some parts. I am not able to conclude if Spades is hacking or not... somes of the moves were really suspicious (apart from the camera locks that I did not take in consideration). Though, the replay on Shakuras tend to make me think he was either not hacking or just not paying attention to the drops....
Game 1: Antiga Shipyard.
9:31 Moving the vikings preemptively after sitting a while at expansion
Game 2: Entombed Valley
2:14 Why not looking to your scouting SCV at pro level?
14:10 I found this move really weird, moving all his siege tanks to the high ground to catch an army that he had not seen yet.
Game 3: Shakuras Plateau (Not conclusive on this replay, in favor of Spades not hacking based on this one)
3:55 I'll be contradicting the OP here by saying the marine was seen on the minimap (obviously not a second scouting SCV) and only after, the 4 SCV's moved. This move seems legit to me.
12:18 Spades misses a drop incoming in his natural. This would have been really easily avoidable if he was in fact using maphack without being obvious (i.e producing and rallying few marines at the entrance of his main and only moving them after the medivac got in range).
Game 4: Metalopolis
7:20 This move is painful to watch, Spades just dancing around with his army then going after the hellions when the drop occur without having any scouting information of it.
Game 5: Tal'darim Altar
18:20 Suspicious army movement
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One thing I know for sure, I should be playing on NA. God these players are bad in these replays..
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On June 05 2012 10:44 KiWiKaKi wrote:
spades is not a hacker , i disapprove
The man has spoken. Time to lock this thread,
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On June 05 2012 10:45 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:42 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 10:30 babylon wrote:
This thread should be closed until some actual pros volunteer to sit down and analyze the 100 games Spades has posted (or however many they want to look at). At this point, everything is just circumstantial, and there's a lot of misinformation floating around regarding how this supposed camera lock hack functions. Cats, drewbie, illusion, and tt1 are bout to analyze about 50+ games on Cats stream after SOTG 50+ GAMES??? o________________o Wow. I almost think they'd be better off picking a random sample of 10-15 games (def. not 50) and spending the rest of their time practicing and analyzing their own replays...
Money. Besides the cynical reason, I'm curious as well since 50+ GAMES would take a while, not to mention the fact that none of these guys here are gonna be affected in the slightest.
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On June 05 2012 10:45 ZweiGaming wrote:
I've went through most of the games (5 first ones) and here's the thing I noted. I've only went once through the replays so I am aware that I must have missed some parts. I am not able to conclude if Spades is hacking or not... somes of the moves were really suspicious (apart from the camera locks that I did not take in consideration). Though, the replay on Shakuras tend to make me think he was either not hacking or just not paying attention to the drops....
Game 1: Antiga Shipyard.
9:31 Moving the vikings preemptively after sitting a while at expansion
Game 2: Entombed Valley
2:14 Why not looking to your scouting SCV at pro level?
14:10 I found this move really weird, moving all his siege tanks to the high ground to catch an army that he had not seen yet.
Game 3: Shakuras Plateau (Not conclusive on this replay, in favor of Spades not hacking based on this one)
3:55 I'll be contradicting the OP here by saying the marine was seen on the minimap (obviously not a second scouting SCV) and only after, the 4 SCV's moved. This move seems legit to me.
12:18 Spades misses a drop incoming in his natural. This would have been really easily avoidable if he was in fact using maphack without being obvious (i.e producing and rallying few marines at the entrance of his main and only moving them after the medivac got in range).
Game 4: Metalopolis
7:20 This move is painful to watch, Spades just dancing around with his army then going after the hellions when the drop occur without having any scouting information of it.
Game 5: Tal'darim Altar
18:20 Suspicious army movement
Most of this has been discussed over and over already:
+ Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +
Game 1: Antiga Shipyard.
6:15 When he scouted he didn't see any evidence of fast gas, however, before scanning he already starts to build a bay for defending against cloack-banshee.
-Early engineering bays are not uncommon when you haven't scouted your opponents opener. Typically it is even earlier because if you wait till the standard scan at 6:15 you wont have turrets in time for cloak. -he is constantly cycling through the scv's at his mineral line which he can not do if he is looking away since they are not hotkeyed. Show nested quote +
9:30 New banshee from LucifroN is leaving his base, he moves his vikings, that had been waiting at the entry of his natural for over 30 sec to cover his main.
-at first i was suspicious of this, but after watching the other replays there is a common trait which isn't at all suprising. Spades is just ralling vikings in positions to ward off drops/banshees in general. On entombed (game 2) he is constantly ralling his vikings to the most likely drop edge of his base, then moves them where he needs them. He even keeps the vikings there throughout most of the time he doesn't have map control, like most terran would, even though luci isn't sending anything there. -also, again, if you watch is selection, even though his camera isn't moving in his base, he is cycling through/moving/building with scv's/units not hotkeyed in the camera shot and cant be looking away from his base during the time the banshee is built. Show nested quote +
10:45 He gets 2 marines to send them to the xel'naga, however, his camera doesn't move to the center of the map, it gets blocked on his army.
-most likely an attack move sent through the minimap. Not uncommon to send 2 marines this late in the game because if your opponent has the tower, the smoke limits vision and thus your single marine will die. Again, this late in the game, you'd be sure to send 2 marines since it is likely that your opponent has control of it. -He did hand select the starport at 11:02 since it is not hotkeyed by itself so he was at least looking there. However, Spades does not appear to select or interact with any non-hotkeyed units so he "could" have been looking at his opponents base if he did camera blocked. or since there wasn't much going on he could have been slightly idle. again, to each his own. Show nested quote +
Game 2: Entombed Valley
2:14 He sends the SCV without looking at where he's sending it and the camera gets blocked for 4 secs. However, he doesn't even look at LucifroN's base when the SCV reach it.
-The scv was sent via the minimap, a lot of players do it this way. Although, when it arrives, yes he doesn't pay attention to it. Could just be a derp moment, to each their own opinion. -In regards to the camera block, if you look at his apm, everything falls to 0, most likely this is an input lag issue, or maybe he took this time to reset his mouse. None of the other supposed blocks dropped the amp straight to 0. Show nested quote +
6:00 Even if he didn't even watch it, on the minimap you can see LucifroN had a gas, he had done the EXACT same openning as on game 1, however Spades doesn't make bay, neither raven, he goes directly for a viking and waste ALL his energy on a mule, as if he knew 100% sure cloack banshees weren't comming (weird as he didn't even scan).
-From what his minimap can tell him, there was no double gas, cant get cloak on one gas so no need for turrets. Show nested quote +
7:47 Notice how he sieges the tanks on the EXACT position for not being shot by the bunker
-imo just smart positioning, might look suspicious to some but to each their own. Show nested quote +
13:42 LucifroN advances 2 marines to kill Spades marine at the right of the map, would be obvious to think that LucifroN's army is comming behind, however spades doesn't move his army for about 30 sec.
-It looks like he was waiting for that 4th tank, and for stim to get closer to finishing. Only he knows why he waited. Show nested quote +
14:10 LucifroN's army is getting out of his base to that spot, Spades doesn't see ANYTHING, but he sieges his tanks right in the elevation and move his marines out of his base and puts them next to the spot LucifroN is going.
-he has the center watchtower, lucifron just scanned his army which indicates Lucifron was guaging his army size, and marines just cleared Spades scoute marine on that path 20 seconds earlier. Setting up on that cliff is the only logical decision. The op even stats that this would be obvious. Show nested quote +
20:30 first scan to LucifroN's base in the whole game!! Spots all his army and the third cc.
-he was using most of his prior scans to keep lucifron's tanks from killing off his tanks since he lost air superiority. Yes late scan, but it wasn't like Spades had a choice. Also, his medvacs at 16:40 saw anything worth seeing in his main.
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Can someone list the stupid shit he should have been able to stop if he was hacking but didn't because he WASN'T FUCKING HACKING??
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On June 05 2012 10:45 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:42 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 10:30 babylon wrote:
This thread should be closed until some actual pros volunteer to sit down and analyze the 100 games Spades has posted (or however many they want to look at). At this point, everything is just circumstantial, and there's a lot of misinformation floating around regarding how this supposed camera lock hack functions. Cats, drewbie, illusion, and tt1 are bout to analyze about 50+ games on Cats stream after SOTG 50+ GAMES??? o________________o Wow. I almost think they'd be better off picking a random sample of 10-15 games (def. not 50) and spending the rest of their time practicing and analyzing their own replays...
They aren't analyzing all 50+ they are going to be analyzing some of the 50+ games that Spades put out, so I would say that 15 games would be a fair assement. Sorry for the misunderstanding
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On June 05 2012 10:36 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:33 Dodgin wrote:On June 05 2012 10:31 ampson wrote:
The star2 community is so goddamn toxic that it absolutely disgusts me. At the rate that we're going, every pro-gamer, caster, and community figure is going to have their image absolutely trashed by the time that we achieve "legitimacy." Can we PLEASE stop living for meaningless drama? Pro players potentially map hacking to win money from online tournaments is not " meaningless drama " ... ... he was playing in a showmatch sponsored by his own team with no prize for the players.
Like I said, potentially. It doesn't stop with showmatches.
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On June 05 2012 10:45 legaton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:41 whiterabbit wrote:On June 05 2012 10:26 Artok wrote:On June 05 2012 10:21 whiterabbit wrote:
It is like community where majority of people are mediocre at game (me included) is feeding their self-esteem by showing how much power they have.
Doesn't matter if Spades somehow proves he never used hacks in SC2, as someone with background of BW player who used hacks, his career or at least image is ruined.
I can't believe this topic didn't get closed/deleted giving there is no real proof. And I love how few other pros jumped to throw cheap accusations basically saying "Hey, I think you are hacker but if you are not...well... sowwy!"
Hacker should be called out and surgically removed from the scene, but ruining someone's career without real proof is beyond bad and as I said, I can't believe TeamLiquid is assisting at doing so. probably the best post in the thread, im kind of sad that this whole thing is still going without even an opinion of lucifron that he played against. There is no opinion of LucifroN who played those games but we surely have entire PR machine (twitter/reddit) going from CatZ and friends who will do replay analysis, at least someone will benefit from this... Catz' bank account thanks to the viewers and the ads? To me, Catz really hit a low on this thread, i guess he doesn't like Spades, but trying to attract viewers thanks to this drama is simply disgusting. He could at least do it pro-bono (without ads) and try to spin it as doing a service to the community.
He IS doing a service to the community, people wanted Spades to post ladder replays for analisis, he did, people wanted pros to analize the replays, now they are going to, and there is still people talking shit about how they are granting them their requests, jesus, you don't approve of a pro player having adds on his stream? Whats next? You're going to complain about how pro's make money off of winning tournaments?
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There was nothing on the line in my showmatch vs LucifroN, there was no prize or anything. This is why I said it wont matter what i post, because you can argue this point.
I just want to say, I am extremely upset about this. This hurts my career, as well as my mental state. If you have it in your mind that someone is playing suspicious, It's hard to remained unbiased. You will see suspicious actions everywhere you want to. I ask you go find some replays of your favorite top players, break the replay down and analyze it and I gaurantee you will find suspicious actions. Starcraft 2 is a game of limited information and what you do with it, as well as how you fill in the cracks. A lot is guesswork, experience, and just feeling while you are in the game. Can I accurately explain every suspicious moment? No. I don't know what was going through my mind at that exact moment, you just react on instinct among other things. Did i make some great "questionable" decisions? Yes. Did i make some terrible decisions? Yes. I hope people can remain objective and give me a fair chance when evaluating my play. I made a terrible mistake in the past, and I know it hurts me immensely here. I almost want to just skip Anaheim and retire. But I've decided I know when I'm right, and I'm not going to roll over and die. I don't expect a conclusion resulting in my innocence, or my guilt. So I will just continue playing, and over time I think I will be able to change my tarnished image, and hopefully turn some of you around as well.
As for the people sending me PM's, thank you for your support and understanding, I really appreciate it.
Sorry for my ignorance, I didn't have enough time to research the showmatch after watching the reps, so I just posted.
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On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count?
The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts.
He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character.
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EPT
