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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody.
Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence. |
On August 17 2013 06:39 Egomancer wrote:
Peeking into FoW is hardproof. If that is not hardproof, then what is?
Think! If peeking into FoW is hard proof then 100% of the player base based on that would be hackers (most of course false-positives).
Peeking into FoW can be a circumstantial proof. For example if you move a hidden strike force throughout the map (in uncommon places to look at) and opponent is clearly following it via FoW (not meaning one clance) it is likely quite clear case. Of course even these are always circumstantial.
But let's think logical reasons for 'harmless peeks'. Peeking into opponents base? Maybe checking missed some building at last look? Maybe planning army positioning or drops. Considering to scan, but not having energy to do so. So on... There are multiple valid reasons for everyone to peek into FoW in every game. Thus any peek cannot be a hard proof because everyone would be caught (and most cases would be false-positives).
Proving map hacks conclusively is hard. Only cases where the hacker openly e.g. follows others army via FoW, all the time moves based on opponents movement, etc. can be easy. Everything else is usually circumstantial if it is possible for opponent to do. Automation hacks on the other hand are usually easy to proof (there are too false-positive changes, but these can easily be taken into account).
I am sure many map hackers also try to mask the fact they are hacking. For example scouting just to look legit. E.g. one suspicious moment from your replay I mentioned:
- After your opponent scouts your 4th at 16:40 he starts to prepare pushing it. At 17:05 you send probe from your 4th to make two forward pylons to likely spot possible push to 4th. You then select your main army and move your view back to the probe. As opponents forces appear at that time from the fog of war you can A-move your army as you had already selected it. After the push is defeated you will not build any forward spotter pylons you were going build. What makes this suspicious is that before that you almost never select your army unless you are moving it / binding it to hotkeys. You keep it selected 8 blizzard-seconds and look at the probe ready to act immediately.
This case could very well be masking. Sending probe to build forward spotter pylons and as it is intercepted on the way, it gives possibility to immediately react to that scouting information. And as not building those spotter pylons after the push was over makes you think it could have been just masking. But as said that moment is not a conclusive proof. Only a suspicious moment.
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On August 17 2013 07:21 -Dustin- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 07:15 Egomancer wrote:
I have admitted that there are suspicious thing on both sides at the game with DucieAcie and I was never talking about it. I was and I am talking about the game against the terran. So let's please focus on that... That's the problem... It doesn't show "suspicious things on both sides" it shows you maphacking with no attempts to hide it. I would like for you to watch the replay and give me reasons for each of the suspicious actions you do that I listed and prove to me that you weren't maphacking. If you do this please do not even mention "but he done this" or he "done that suspicious move" its not about him its about you.
Yes it does, the guy tells us what he does and why he does.
His reasons are:
1. I have done it for no particular reason (make 16 zerglings)
2. This was the build and I followed it even if I scouted that your build hardcounters mine
3. This is what I normally do
4. I scouted it (evidence shows that he did not scout it)
5. This is what I normally do and it is normal.
So to answer your question on the 11 points:
1. I have done it for no particular reason ( pull probes 3 seconds before mutas come)
2. This was the build and I followed it even if I scouted that your build hardcounters mine (when I put 2 stargates blindly)
3. This is what I normally do (when I warp 4 zealots to fill the gap)
4. I scouted it (when I move my army to one base to the other)
5. This is what I normally do and it is normal.
Any more questions?
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@Egomancer
Hey people have you see his stream ?
1 : its quite a joke how he plays to be honest ! He had no micro and macro... poor game sense.
2 : Since today where proof is here, he had like 20 looses for 4 wins... Strange right ?
3 : How can you still denie ? TL who has the reputation to ban easily should ban you for multiple lies.
4 : Hacker and team owner of big national team with top EU players, all your players must be forbidden of all tournaments.
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On August 17 2013 07:28 Egomancer wrote:
Yes it does, the guy tells us what he does and why he does.
His reasons are:
1. I have done it for no particular reason (make 16 zerglings)
2. This was the build and I followed it even if I scouted that you build hardcounters yours
3. This is what I normally do
4. I scouted it (evidence shows that he did not scout it)
5. This is what I normally do and it is normal.
So to answer your question on the 11 points:
1. I have done it for no particular reason ( pull probes 3 seconds before mutas come)
2. This was the build and I followed it even if I scouted that you build hardcounters yours (when I put 2 stargates blindly)
3. This is what I normally do (when I warp 4 zealots to fill the gap)
4. I scouted it (when I move my army to one base to the other)
5. This is what I normally do and it is normal.
Any more questions?
That's 5/11.
Multiple problems with your answers too.
Alright I can see the build order thing no problem but if you aren't 100% sure they are going Mutas no Protoss spends all chrono on double stargates.
3. That is the biggest bullshit I have ever heard. "Yeah I always warp in 4 Zealots in my gap right before Lings I haven't seen run in".
You never scout anything.
Plus the fact that you just used numbers and not the time codes I have no idea what parts you are talking about.
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You can apply any of the points 1-5 to the missing cases, I think they fit...
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They don't not even close man.
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On August 17 2013 07:28 Egomancer wrote:
Yes it does, the guy tells us what he does and why he does.
His reasons are:
1. I have done it for no particular reason (make 16 zerglings)
2. This was the build and I followed it even if I scouted that you build hardcounters yours
3. This is what I normally do
4. I scouted it (evidence shows that he did not scout it)
5. This is what I normally do and it is normal.
So to answer your question on the 11 points:
1. I have done it for no particular reason ( pull probes 3 seconds before mutas come)
2. This was the build and I followed it even if I scouted that you build hardcounters yours (when I put 2 stargates blindly)
3. This is what I normally do (when I warp 4 zealots to fill the gap)
4. I scouted it (when I move my army to one base to the other)
5. This is what I normally do and it is normal.
Any more questions?
Yes
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340614¤tpage=337#6737
And adding now afterwards, this was now a build you were going for? Why not earlier? and he scouts, get a grip man, ur so ignorant about people questioning your moves, that you instead of answering them in a normal way, you push the guilt elsewhere. Could you please start using some sort of autouploader of all your replays as you play them on ladder, that way, we can look at your training for DH, and judge ourselfe if this was a onetime suspiciouse game or not (sorry for the typos)
On August 17 2013 01:10 Egomancer wrote:I guess this is the reason why I do not progress
On August 17 2013 05:41 korona wrote:I am not sure about your grasp of the game
Where do i collect my reward?
Edit: If your playing right now, stream please, so we can watch
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J_EU I hope you realize that what that guy writes there is total bullshit... I mean those reasons are hilarious...
Like: indeed I have scouted that you have 2 starports and I am making mutas, but I made them anyway because that was the build I was preparing from beggining. Really? So you do not adapt during the game based on what you scout?
It is late here and I am too lazy to make some bullshit excuses for what I have done. Like the 2 starports that I put down because I see only zerglings the first 10 minutes of the game. Here is the explanation: "I wanted to make 2 startports to make phoenixes so I can hunt overlorlds all over the map and deny the zerg mapcontrol". While in itself the idea is logical, in the big picture of the game it makes no sense. Same thing goes with what he explains...
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On August 17 2013 07:36 Egomancer wrote:
You can apply any of the points 1-5 to the missing cases, I think they fit...
I think this one:
"I have done it for no particular reason" should fit them all...
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I do adapt in my games depending on what i scout, i have been playing random on the EU ladder for a season, learing other races than just P that ive always played. After getting to 80 level combined, i started to feel i had gotten a better understanding of whats going on with the different races (im still plat due to my awefull mechanics, i usually never play sober, and im slow as shit).
I dare to say, even at plat, you dont build buildings for fun. I might face a silverplayer at random (i hope its random atleast) where i can hardswitch tech, and still get out ahead. But from plat and higher, its kinda impossible to do that, unless im 100% certain that the switch will give me an benefit. If someone commits to mutas, they ofc wont techswitch just like that, he was allready going that route.
And i highly doubt that from master and up its always mutas if you only see lings, its not even common at platlevel ...
For me, it feels like your trying to grasp onto thin straws of reality, to save your own face in this one, but your ignoring your own actions, and how they looks for us others. But please, practice for DH, and prove us wrong, you have nothing to loose doing so, all to win.
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Everything I explained makes sense. Im not saying that that's the perfect way to play. Im frustrated with ZvP atm but that doenst change that I explained my reasoning and every player higher than gold should be able to comprehend it.
If theres something specific you don't understand, then ask. But instead you just show that you have no knowledge about the game.
Alone your army composition at the end of the game shows that you have no clue what you are doing.
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On August 17 2013 02:33 Egomancer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 02:20 FFW_Rude wrote:
I love the bold part. The guy scan and you say he maphacks. But how do you know... Because you saw the ebays. (if it was a maphacker he would have build one. Not two. He is going bio). 7minute scan is really ok.
And for the DT that is NOT a money scan. He "wobbles" his screen to see the shadow of the DT (that you REALLY WELL can see on this tileset)
You mean the drop that you intercept PERFECTLY because you move your whole army 20seconds before he hits your third ? So basically you say that there is nothing suspicious in a game where the terran scans exactly 3 times and those scans are: 1. hidden tech 2. some dts in his base that do not do damage and he can not see 3. the army randomly on the map ... Well, what can I say then...the guy is a genious and does not maphack...
Can you answer HOW YOU deflect EVERY drop by moving your army EXACTLY where the drops are coming ? EVERY F...TIME ? you didn't answer the question. You MAPHACK. You do !
You just don't know how to read. => He scans your base and see the edge of the Dark shrine.
2. HE SEE YOUR WARP PRISM FOR GOD SAKE ! and he see the blur !
3. yeah scanning between nat and 3rd when you know your oponents have 3base IS NOT WEIRD at ALL !
the only thing you could argue is the concave he set up when you are going to attack (but you do EXACTLY THE SAME thing.... without knowing if his army is there.
Answer my questions  i want to see your answers. Talk about you not the terran !
Can you tell me how in the game vs the zerg you CONSTANTLY move your army where he is going to go WITHOUT any scouting ? Really ?
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J_EU, I did not build stuff for fun, I was going for a 5 collosus 200/200 army which is one of my favorite strats on that map. But at min 10 I see no roach/hydra stuff so I desperately put some starports. At that point I actually know that my chances to win this game are slim but I keep playing.
Around minute 15-20 I am really pissed off because the guy is countering me whatever I do (I did not know at the moment that he is blindcountering me). And when I finally somehow get to a 200/200 army with a different composition than what I intended he just makes ultralisks. And that kills me, even if I drag the game like 10 more minutes...
He claims that he scouts my robo, which is true, but he never scouts the robo bay BEFORE making the mutalisk den. There are multiple builds where you start robo just for detection and then switch to double or triple starports. Obviously he does not scout what I do, and when he scouts my startport he just continues with the build unabated. And the weird stuff keeps coming from both sides. Why did he do ultralisks? Maybe I have built somewhere like 5 robos to switch to immortals? Does he scout this? No he does not. Once more, here we are talking about mid to high masters, people that actually understand what is happening in this game.
This is why I stopped reading the explanation of the zerg about the 16 zerglings he made at minute 8 (for protoss fastest 3rd can come at min 6) - they made no sense. Why didn't he do them at min 6 to counter the thing properly? Why 16? I can warp 4 zealots that can kill the 16 zerlings easily... And the questions continue...
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On August 17 2013 07:56 FFW_Rude wrote:Can you answer HOW YOU deflect EVERY drop by moving your army EXACTLY where the drops are coming ? EVERY F...TIME ? you didn't answer the question. You MAPHACK. You do ! You just don't know how to read. => He scans your base and see the edge of the Dark shrine. 2. HE SEE YOUR WARP PRISM FOR GOD SAKE ! and he see the blur ! 3. yeah scanning between nat and 3rd when you know your oponents have 3base IS NOT WEIRD at ALL ! the only thing you could argue is the concave he set up when you are going to attack (but you do EXACTLY THE SAME thing.... without knowing if his army is there. Answer my questions i want to see your answers. Talk about you not the terran ! Can you tell me how in the game vs the zerg you CONSTANTLY move your army where he is going to go WITHOUT any scouting ? Really ?
1.There is ONE drop that I deflect and I have the army there like 1 minute befoire the drop comes. I think you are looking at a different replay... I move my army there because he scans so I know that a drop is coming.
2. Yes, but on certain settings you DO NOT SEE THE BLUR....He did not see them dropping from the WarpPrism...
3. He scanned in front of the 2nd at min 15. At minute 15 my army can be anywhere on the map because I should be maxed out...
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On August 17 2013 08:03 Egomancer wrote:
J_EU, I did not build stuff for fun, I was going for a 5 collosus 200/200 army which is one of my favorite strats on that map. But at min 10 I see no roach/hydra stuff so I desperately put some starports. At that point I actually know that my chances to win this game are slim but I keep playing.
Around minute 15-20 I am really pissed off because the guy is countering me whatever I do (I did not know at the moment that he is blindcountering me). And when I finally somehow get to a 200/200 army with a different composition than what I intended he just makes ultralisks. And that kills me, even if I drag the game like 10 more minutes...
He claims that he scouts my robo, which is true, but he never scouts the robo bay BEFORE making the mutalisk den. There are multiple builds where you start robo just for detection and then switch to double or triple starports. Obviously he does not scout what I do, and when he scouts my startport he just continues with the build unabated. And the weird stuff keeps coming from both sides. Why did he do ultralisks? Maybe I have built somewhere like 5 robos to switch to immortals? Does he scout this? No he does not. Once more, here we are talking about mid to high masters, people that actually understand what is happening in this game.
This is why I stopped reading the explanation of the zerg about the 16 zerglings he made at minute 8 (for protoss fastest 3rd can come at min 6) - they made no sense. Why didn't he do them at min 6 to counter the thing properly? Why 16? I can warp 4 zealots that can kill the 16 zerlings easily... And the questions continue...
You clearly show that you have no clue about the game. Robo for detection into 2/3 starports? never seen something like that. Oracles also give detection and you need no extra tech building for it. Just like the 5 robo immo switch, you rarely ever make more than 2 robos and even with 2/4 immortals its iffy for the protoss as you cant rely on forcefields and zerglings tank the shots from the immortals.
As I said about the lings, thats just a good point in time for me to make some units in order to scout, get mapcontrol and possibly harass.
You talk so much about my scouting(which was largely sufficient in that game) but you dont scout at all yourself. Seeing only lings, can also mean f.ex: a speedling only build into ultras or ling/infestor/corrupter, etc....
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Seeing only lings 90% of the time means mutas (that particular number of lings)... which means that you have no clue about the game actually... There is another build with lings directly into ultras, but that one is with more lings.
You just scout a robo and blindly go mutas, then scout 2 starports and still go mutas - who has no clue about metagame? Me or you?
And why did you do the lings at minute 8 when I have warpgate and you did not do them at minute 6 when it was normal? FOr map control....right...
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Nothing you say makes sense. You never had any possibility to know how many lings I made and the Speedling into Ultrastyle is somewhat popular on larger maps.
"You just scout a robo and blindly go mutas, then scout 2 starports and still go mutas - who has no clue about metagame? Me or you?"
I explained why I still went for mutas you just have to read it. And seeing a robo usually gives you enough time to get the mutas out, unless there's a 2 base all-in coming.
As I said about 3 times already, the lings aren't made to do dmg. If I can do dmg with them then thats great but its not the main purpose. Warpgate or not, poking around with lings is always worth it, be it through scouting info, denying proxy pylons or forcing warp-ins or even killing stuff.
Edit: typos
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On August 17 2013 08:24 AcieDeucie wrote:
Nothing you say makes sense. You never had any possibility to know how many lings I made and the Speedling into Ultrastyle is somewhat popular on larger maps.
"You just scout a robo and blindly go mutas, then scout 2 starports and still go mutas - who has no clue about metagame? Me or you?"
I explained why I still went for mutas you just have to read it. And seeing a robo usually gives you enough time to get the mutas out, unless there's a 2 base all-in coming.
As I said about 3 times already, the lings aren't made to do dmg. If I can do dmg with them then thats great but its not the main purpose. Warpgate or not, poking around with lings is always worth it, be it through scouting info, denying proxy pylons or forcing warp-ins or even killing stuff.
Edit: typos
Yes, scouting a robo gives you time to get mutas out, but if I would have macroed a little better or if I would have figured out that you are going mutas earlier I would have made like 6 phoenixes and at that point you would have lost the game or had smaller chances to win. So you gambled...
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What I want to say is that on that replay it is not obvious that you maphack and I have no clear evidence that you maphacked. There is another replay of a game I played against a terran where the guy is a clear maphacker, I mean it is hard to maphack more obvious than that guy. Your game does not come even close to that terran but there are some weird decisions that you do during the game - like the 17.30 min attack with all you got because you saw 6 dots on the minimap. Plus that you make a build that hardcounters mine with minimal scouting...
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EPT
