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GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating th…

Forum Index > SC2 General
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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody.

Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence.
KazmA
Profile Joined August 2011
United States117 Posts
May 29 2012 18:23 GMT
#461
These maphackers are fucking terrible. If they want to mess around on ladder so they can have their shiny GM badge then just let them have their fun and don't give them attention. They're not gonna go anywhere or further themselves in the community anyway.
"I intend to live forever, or die trying"- Groucho Marks
ZweiGaming
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada348 Posts
May 29 2012 18:37 GMT
#462
On May 30 2012 03:23 KazmA wrote:
These maphackers are fucking terrible. If they want to mess around on ladder so they can have their shiny GM badge then just let them have their fun and don't give them attention. They're not gonna go anywhere or further themselves in the community anyway.


Or we can just work to get them banned and possibly rage quit out of the game?
Caliber
Profile Joined August 2010
United States598 Posts
May 29 2012 18:41 GMT
#463
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346
ZweiGaming
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada348 Posts
May 29 2012 18:51 GMT
#464
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346


After looking at this replay, I am 100% convinced that he hacks. I'd be worried if I were you ninetail lol.

Apart from 0 scouting, 100% copying the oponent strat, the 10:15 timing where you send your phoenix on his threw fog of war is pretty obvious.

Thanks for this replay caliber
las91
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States5080 Posts
May 29 2012 18:51 GMT
#465
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346


It is very subtle but after watching the replay it's interesting to see such incredible "starsense" as responding to a 2 stargate phoenix play within several seconds of Rocker placing his stargates as well as going to the "correct" watchtower instead of the one closer to your base with your phoenixes. Albeit not blatantly obvious it is suspicious.
In Inca we trust
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
May 29 2012 18:54 GMT
#466
On May 29 2012 07:22 rotegirte wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2012 07:03 Pantythief wrote:
On May 29 2012 06:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Holy shit so I just read some stuff about hacks.

Apparently there are external hacks and internal hacks.

Internal hacks are like the hardcore hacks, which can do things like blink your stalkers for you.

External hacks are apparently weaker but they still allow you things like production tab, vision, see his resources, etc.

Now apparently Blizzard lost a lawsuit, where until 6 years ago, in WoW, they would scan your entire computer for these external hacks (external hacks don't change the game so Warden doesn't pick up the signature). However it was ruled that that was illegal, since Warden was invading privacy.

So to my understanding, if you use these external hacks... the only way Blizzard can catch you is if they some reason scan the entire computer again, or if someone looks at the replay and catches you being suspicious by blind countering and/or looking at their base through fog of war and such. However, it can be hard to decide whether someone is hacking or not in this manner because, for example, maybe you scroll over to their base in the fog of war, just to see if they took any gas or not. But for a hacker, they are looking at their army, and then decide whether to attack or not. This kind of thing would be hard to tell if they're hacking or not.

So basically, so far only the internal hackers and the stupid external hackers are being caught and banned. What about those who use external hacks in moderation? This is scaring me a bit... there could be many many hackers right now. I google'd some sc2 hacks and there is a website that is thriving with them (d3scene).

Maybe the ones who created the hacks are lying about the safety of external hacks though, but even those who are using the internal hacks... I haven't seen anyone say they have been caught with it. Maybe after a while, blizzard will find out, and do a mass ban again. But for now, everyone using the internal hacks (which are claimed to be undetectable) seems to be able to play freely until blizzard does something about it. And by freely I mean that it's been a few months already!

If this is true, then holy fuck. If not, then whew. Maybe someone who knows more about programming and such can shed more light on this?

Oh yeah to make things worse, the people who are releasing these "public hacks" are saying they use a different version themselves. The reason being, if blizzard catches on to a public version, and does a mass ban, the creator -- the one causing the trouble! -- will still be safe, since his hack is different. It seems stopping hacking is much harder than people think, and this can explain why Blizzard is so slow about it.


External hacks are hacks that are unable for Warden or any other anti-cheat system to detect, because they're rooted locally on your computer and into your memory.

Internal hacks are the ones you constantly hear about in "large ban-waves, omg, omg" Yes, you are correct. It's illegal for Blizzard and any other company to "scan" your system. D3scene has been around since the day most of you were born, I know a moderator on there from old times.

Also, you got it wrong with the external and internal hacks -- the MAJORITY wants to use EXTERNAL hacks, so that they can hack for as long as they want to, without getting detected, until the game is patched. Once the game has been patched I imagine that the author of the hack will update it, so that it will remain undetectable. Internal hacks are spotted almost instantly by Warden because the .exe file is injecting into the starcraft2.exe file.

Blizzard cannot stop this -- no company can. The technology to stop external hacks is being slowed down because of the Consumer-Privacy law. I dare say an experienced hacker knows better than any gaming company out there.




Out of curiosity, the general consensus I have gotten on the web is that Blizzard isn't particularly sophisticated at shielding their game. Technically speaking, is there even a theoretical way to mitigate the compromise of an online multiplayer RTS? I mean, could they have designed it any (significant) way better on code level? I ask this, because it would be pretty much an eternal problem for every future RTS for any company


There's no technical barrier to catching hackers. The key is to stop focusing on how hacks work and start focusing on how they change the hacker's play. Look for things like perfect blink micro (especially for an otherwise mechanically weak player). Try to catch people who "guess" right way more often than they should. Validate these methods by paying some high level players to watch replays that were flagged automatically. Build up a database of players whose reports are reliable.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
ZweiGaming
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada348 Posts
May 29 2012 18:55 GMT
#467
On May 30 2012 03:51 las91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346


It is very subtle but after watching the replay it's interesting to see such incredible "starsense" as responding to a 2 stargate phoenix play within several seconds of Rocker placing his stargates as well as going to the "correct" watchtower instead of the one closer to your base with your phoenixes. Albeit not blatantly obvious it is suspicious.


Not blatant? has to be a joke... who goes fast expo in pvp and doesn't even scout the opponent base in a 15 min mark game (GM players that is)?

As previously said, the 10:15 timing is obvious hacks as well.
Northern_iight
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada363 Posts
May 29 2012 18:56 GMT
#468
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346


jsut watched it. I would put my money that ninetails MHs. The first phoenix engagement... very suspicious. Taking your third without even scouting his. Direct hard counter to rocker's build, grabbing phoenix range first. Ninetails also never moves his army in front of his base, not even to select them except when rocker moves towards his third in metropolis (which ofcourse he doesn't have any watch towers or observers to spot it), he then moves his entire army to his third.
sad par is.... ninetails still lost
TechNoTrance
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada1007 Posts
May 29 2012 18:59 GMT
#469
Hopefully blizzard works with the community here to pinpoint hackers.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
Furlqt
Profile Joined July 2011
United States23 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-29 19:02:40
May 29 2012 19:02 GMT
#470
On May 30 2012 03:51 ZweiGaming wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346


After looking at this replay, I am 100% convinced that he hacks. I'd be worried if I were you ninetail lol.

Apart from 0 scouting, 100% copying the oponent strat, the 10:15 timing where you send your phoenix on his threw fog of war is pretty obvious.

Thanks for this replay caliber


There's also a blink on the 15 hp stalker without any corresponding selection at 15:56.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10000 Posts
May 29 2012 19:02 GMT
#471
i wouldnt accuse some1 of hacking if i wasnt 100% sure : )
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
iaretehnoob
Profile Joined June 2004
Sweden741 Posts
May 29 2012 19:04 GMT
#472
On May 29 2012 23:52 thebig1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2012 17:02 Inori wrote:
What I care about, and what I meant about when I said "client needs to be stateless" is completely different issue.

The way it works right now is that units, buildings, are rendered and updated in real time. Rendering a unit for first time is expensive, btw. But it's not such a big issue because it's only done once in a lifetime of a unit, then it's just recalculation of unit positioning. Same for anything else. Buildings, mineral patch sizes, whatever.
That's called stateful client. A client that relies on previously inputted data, updating it with newly sent (which is only updates to previous state).

The way you and bunch of other clueless people suggests is only achievable when client becomes stateless as far as FoW goes, i.e. stops depending on previous data and creates everything on the fly based on full game state data that is sent from server (rather than just updates to existing). This is the only way to solve maphacking issue, because then there's nothing to read from memory, since it's created on the fly each tick.
What this results in is that your PC will have to create/render/recalculate every single unit each time it comes out of your FoW, then destroy each time it goes back in and so on. This is a major overhaul for any system. (remember than first time render is expensive.. well now it's each time first time).

If you're seriously going to argue with this again, before that, I'd really want to ask for a favor - just do a couple of experiments - run a big replay on 8x, create a custom map and suddenly drop 200/200 units, make some other sudden game huge change you can think of. I dare you to tell me your PC won't lag. And then image it will lag like this each time opponent steps out of FoW and tell me it's a question of couple of bytes.

About GH/SO - I only brought it up because you immediately assumed I'm highschool level without even trying to dive into the points I was making. To get away from that assumption I provided proof I'm not and thus in response I also wanted same from you.
Btw I also work in corporate sector (in fact, people that don't are very tiny % of total developers), sorry but that's a stupid excuse not to take part in OS world. But that's a completely different subject, so whatever.


Running a replay on 8x doesn't have anything to do with things... In order to run the game at 8x you either need to run the game logic at 480fps (60*8) and then drop frames... Sure there are tricks you can use to help with this, but it's still not going to be great. So yeah, if people can only manage 70fps running the game normally, they are only going to get like 9 at 8x speed.

You don't need to dispose a unit every time it leaves the fog of war. You would try to keep as much in memory as you could... Y could just ou do something like get the server to stop sending info and send a hide bit, then the units can be completely kept in memory and not updated on the map. That gives you the same result of it being compeltely stateless. Both ways you could get total count of units, and their last position. If you were really worried about memory in team games you could send death messages globally to tell clients when to dispose units when they died. However, on modern computers that shouldn't really be an issue. Most of the memory is taken up by things like assets anyways.

I am in a rush to type this post (like always, life too busy), but programming in games (and other projects tbh) is all about taking shortcuts. You very rarely do it the "correct" way, such as trying to make your stateless game. The correct way is too slow. You get something that works nearly as well, but is way faster and use that instead.


Content: OpenConflict: Preventing Real Time Map Hacks in Online Games So preventing maphacks is possible even in P2P games, without moving the simulation to a 3rd party.
Sergio1992
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Italy522 Posts
May 29 2012 19:12 GMT
#473
On May 30 2012 03:56 Northern_iight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346


jsut watched it. I would put my money that ninetails MHs. The first phoenix engagement... very suspicious. Taking your third without even scouting his. Direct hard counter to rocker's build, grabbing phoenix range first. Ninetails also never moves his army in front of his base, not even to select them except when rocker moves towards his third in metropolis (which ofcourse he doesn't have any watch towers or observers to spot it), he then moves his entire army to his third.
sad par is.... ninetails still lost

ninetails got crazy spider sense. You are a bad boy not trusting his supreme game - sense, he is soon to be a korean, the new flash, predicting enemy moves without scouting them, also copying step by step the opponent's build without even knowing who he is...

At the end you see that people who maphacks are not even enough good to be able to win always.
Gheed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States972 Posts
May 29 2012 19:29 GMT
#474
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346


Well this thread got interesting, lol.
bLo0d
Profile Joined June 2011
58 Posts
May 29 2012 19:30 GMT
#475
LOL, epic replay evidence after ninetails put on a crying show for everyone . So funny.
frontline-
Profile Joined March 2012
Bulgaria281 Posts
May 29 2012 19:34 GMT
#476
Well this guy got smashed in the ground pretty fast , haha
KeeN
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada82 Posts
May 29 2012 19:37 GMT
#477
On May 30 2012 03:41 Caliber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 02:56 NiNETAiL wrote:
as i've said i feel really offended by this , beacuse i can prove that im not a maphacker , and he didn't even post a single replay of me playing with a "maphack" .... so i kind of feel bad.


care to explain this?

http://drop.sc/188346

100% maphack, owned

good job brining more attention upon yourself, now your even more recognized as a maphacker ninetails
nope
Vralaren
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden130 Posts
May 29 2012 19:40 GMT
#478
rofl, ninetails got stomped pretty fast by that replay! Good job submiting it. big props the the people submiting replays and helping us find these cheaters!
Its like stealing candy from.... Someone u steal candy from! -LiquidSheth♥
stevarius
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1394 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-29 19:46:52
May 29 2012 19:44 GMT
#479
Lol @ ninetails.


The blink hacking got you caught. Zero selection at all when the stalkers were blinking and I even slowed down the replay to ensure you weren't clicking back to the control group really fast. The positioning of your army without scouting when he pushed out just beats the dead horse.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Mendelfist
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden356 Posts
May 29 2012 19:44 GMT
#480
On May 30 2012 04:04 iaretehnoob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2012 23:52 thebig1 wrote:
Running a replay on 8x doesn't have anything to do with things... In order to run the game at 8x you either need to run the game logic at 480fps (60*8) and then drop frames... Sure there are tricks you can use to help with this, but it's still not going to be great. So yeah, if people can only manage 70fps running the game normally, they are only going to get like 9 at 8x speed.

You don't need to dispose a unit every time it leaves the fog of war. You would try to keep as much in memory as you could... Y could just ou do something like get the server to stop sending info and send a hide bit, then the units can be completely kept in memory and not updated on the map. That gives you the same result of it being compeltely stateless. Both ways you could get total count of units, and their last position. If you were really worried about memory in team games you could send death messages globally to tell clients when to dispose units when they died. However, on modern computers that shouldn't really be an issue. Most of the memory is taken up by things like assets anyways.

I am in a rush to type this post (like always, life too busy), but programming in games (and other projects tbh) is all about taking shortcuts. You very rarely do it the "correct" way, such as trying to make your stateless game. The correct way is too slow. You get something that works nearly as well, but is way faster and use that instead.


Content: OpenConflict: Preventing Real Time Map Hacks in Online Games So preventing maphacks is possible even in P2P games, without moving the simulation to a 3rd party.

My understanding of that is that it requires parts of the gamestate to be sent over the net, and the suggested protocol solves the problem of what to send without revealing something the other client shouldn't know.

I don't think it's possible to implement with any reasonable effort though. The first reason is the network bottleneck. Imagine a scan going off. Suddenly all units within that area should be sent within one game tick to the other client.

The second reason is that it would be extremely hard to keep the game states in sync. This is already very hard as it is, even when feeding all clients exactly the same input. Now the game engines would get information on a "need to know basis", ie no client runs a full simulation of the complete game. I think it would be a mess to try to implement.
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