On July 20 2012 23:48 turdburgler wrote: i really enjoy real talk for what it is, an extended series of talk with people who dont often speak, enjoyable for that. but just like mlgs other extended series i find it irritating and missing the point. i wish the questions were more hard hitting and that JP would make the speaker back up what they were saying and articulate their argument better, because i get frustrated when an otherwise likable person says something stupid and gets away with it.
(if the video doesnt load properly jump to 58:30)
this was brought up on reddit and it really grinds my gears when i hear stuff like this. but even if JP agrees with him, the least he could do (as ive seen djwheat do, which i appreciate) is play devils advocate so that they can actually argue their point rather than just state it and act smug because no one disagrees with them.
ill just copy what i wrote on reddit.
i dont get how people map hack(aka cheat), or get put in jail or whatevers new this week and yet we, the wider community, get called the embarrassing ones? how the sc community treats its celebs is no different to how fans of any sport treat the famous people, theres tides of public opinion, there oustings of individuals, fairly or unfairly, and theres people who with an emotional point of view maybe dont consider the facts before they speak out. this happens eeeeeeeveeeerywhere how have the celebrities managed to convince us that we are the toxic ones in this community? when they are the ones smoking and swearing on a show that will be seen by kids. fucking magic trick i tell you
now before i get another twenty replies saying omg who cares about smoking, id like to just let people know they are missing the point. the fact is, the most popular people in our community are just as bad if not worse than anyone posting either here or on reddit in terms of 'being embarrassing' so when we get yet another interview where the people that we built up shit back down on us because we dont behave exactly how they want, i want them to get called out on that shit because it pisses me off to no end.
every single pro that 'makes it big' in this community is so two faced, they go from loving reddit or whatever for building them up to shitting all over the average poster or viewer for not loving every little detail, fuck those guys.
I think you are overreacting. You take one part of the interview. But in the entire interview he had gave many other reasons, but to some up:
- He does not need the forums for feedback, he has other methods - He enjoys fan interaction on events, in real life, people are much nicer in RL. - He does not have the time available to go through forums - SC2 is only part of his life, and not his whole life - He does not enjoy going through forums (forums not mature enough), and he does not look for a community feel online, but in real life. This was also clear from him not enjoying MMOs, it was pretty easy to see that he is not one of those people who lives his live in the virtual world.
Why would JP start an argument with him, when it is a personal opinion? Should he say, no Tasteless, it is wrong that you think that! You should like the forums!
(by the way you kind of proof his point, with this witchhunt like post of yours )
i dont think witch hunt means what you think it means
because i disagree with tasteless on one topic, because i dislike the direction real talk is going (even though i like the show and tasteless overall) im somehow on a witch hunter to what? oust him from his job at gom? i dont know what you are accusing me of here
and you say im overreacting
Just relisten the interview, reread my post, reread your own. Then think if you have reached a valid conclusion. He is not hating on the community, he loves the community when he meets people on events. What he does not enjoy is reading through online forums. Apparantly you see this as an act of betrayal...
noooo i dont care that he doesnt visit TL or reddit thats his choice, i dont care. what i hate is how he, and others get to sit there in 'public' and take a massive dump on us calling us embarrassing. sure he may like the 1% of SC fans who have the money to go out to korea to see the GSL live, thats nice for them and him. but 99% of people will only ever 'interact' with the community through reddit, and him calling people who post there embarrassing is a dick move.
so if hes gonna sit there and defend idra in 1 moment saying, oh its ok, because offline hes a nice guy. but then call the online mob persona of the fans embarrassing i want JP to call him on his bullshit and say that he needs to defend his opinion better.
1) He goes to a lot of foreign events so he doesn't just meet the fans in Korea 2) Everyone says this about live fans (that they're unbelievably nice) and this about online fans (that it's embarrassing and pros don't want to be a part of it) 3) 99% of people don't interact with the community through TL/reddit. People who post on these websites are the vocal minority. 4) The online community is embarrassing. Deal with it.
On July 20 2012 23:48 turdburgler wrote: i really enjoy real talk for what it is, an extended series of talk with people who dont often speak, enjoyable for that. but just like mlgs other extended series i find it irritating and missing the point. i wish the questions were more hard hitting and that JP would make the speaker back up what they were saying and articulate their argument better, because i get frustrated when an otherwise likable person says something stupid and gets away with it.
this was brought up on reddit and it really grinds my gears when i hear stuff like this. but even if JP agrees with him, the least he could do (as ive seen djwheat do, which i appreciate) is play devils advocate so that they can actually argue their point rather than just state it and act smug because no one disagrees with them.
ill just copy what i wrote on reddit.
i dont get how people map hack(aka cheat), or get put in jail or whatevers new this week and yet we, the wider community, get called the embarrassing ones? how the sc community treats its celebs is no different to how fans of any sport treat the famous people, theres tides of public opinion, there oustings of individuals, fairly or unfairly, and theres people who with an emotional point of view maybe dont consider the facts before they speak out. this happens eeeeeeeveeeerywhere how have the celebrities managed to convince us that we are the toxic ones in this community? when they are the ones smoking and swearing on a show that will be seen by kids. fucking magic trick i tell you
now before i get another twenty replies saying omg who cares about smoking, id like to just let people know they are missing the point. the fact is, the most popular people in our community are just as bad if not worse than anyone posting either here or on reddit in terms of 'being embarrassing' so when we get yet another interview where the people that we built up shit back down on us because we dont behave exactly how they want, i want them to get called out on that shit because it pisses me off to no end.
every single pro that 'makes it big' in this community is so two faced, they go from loving reddit or whatever for building them up to shitting all over the average poster or viewer for not loving every little detail, fuck those guys.
I think you are overreacting. You take one part of the interview. But in the entire interview he had gave many other reasons, but to some up:
- He does not need the forums for feedback, he has other methods - He enjoys fan interaction on events, in real life, people are much nicer in RL. - He does not have the time available to go through forums - SC2 is only part of his life, and not his whole life - He does not enjoy going through forums (forums not mature enough), and he does not look for a community feel online, but in real life. This was also clear from him not enjoying MMOs, it was pretty easy to see that he is not one of those people who lives his live in the virtual world.
Why would JP start an argument with him, when it is a personal opinion? Should he say, no Tasteless, it is wrong that you think that! You should like the forums!
(by the way you kind of proof his point, with this witchhunt like post of yours )
i dont think witch hunt means what you think it means
because i disagree with tasteless on one topic, because i dislike the direction real talk is going (even though i like the show and tasteless overall) im somehow on a witch hunter to what? oust him from his job at gom? i dont know what you are accusing me of here
and you say im overreacting
Just relisten the interview, reread my post, reread your own. Then think if you have reached a valid conclusion. He is not hating on the community, he loves the community when he meets people on events. What he does not enjoy is reading through online forums. Apparantly you see this as an act of betrayal...
noooo i dont care that he doesnt visit TL or reddit thats his choice, i dont care. what i hate is how he, and others get to sit there in 'public' and take a massive dump on us calling us embarrassing. sure he may like the 1% of SC fans who have the money to go out to korea to see the GSL live, thats nice for them and him. but 99% of people will only ever 'interact' with the community through reddit, and him calling people who post there embarrassing is a dick move.
so if hes gonna sit there and defend idra in 1 moment saying, oh its ok, because offline hes a nice guy. but then call the online mob persona of the fans embarrassing i want JP to call him on his bullshit and say that he needs to defend his opinion better.
1) He goes to a lot of foreign events so he doesn't just meet the fans in Korea 2) Everyone says this about live fans (that they're unbelievably nice) and this about online fans (that it's embarrassing and pros don't want to be a part of it) 3) 99% of people don't interact with the community through TL/reddit. People who post on these websites are the vocal minority. 4) The online community is embarrassing. Deal with it.
I believe turdburgler is trying to point out that Real Talk is indistinguishable from a circlejerk, where guests come on the show and get thrown softballs on a two hour commercial to increase their brand and image in exchange for a few stories and two mildly interesting questions.
JP needs to challenge his viewers opinions, even if he agrees with them, it's how you create interesting interviews. He doesn't need to create a red menace, he just needs to challenge his guests otherwise it comes off as an audiobook of liquidpedia. A journalists JP is not, but he can easily improve if he desires.
On July 20 2012 23:48 turdburgler wrote: i really enjoy real talk for what it is, an extended series of talk with people who dont often speak, enjoyable for that. but just like mlgs other extended series i find it irritating and missing the point. i wish the questions were more hard hitting and that JP would make the speaker back up what they were saying and articulate their argument better, because i get frustrated when an otherwise likable person says something stupid and gets away with it.
this was brought up on reddit and it really grinds my gears when i hear stuff like this. but even if JP agrees with him, the least he could do (as ive seen djwheat do, which i appreciate) is play devils advocate so that they can actually argue their point rather than just state it and act smug because no one disagrees with them.
ill just copy what i wrote on reddit.
i dont get how people map hack(aka cheat), or get put in jail or whatevers new this week and yet we, the wider community, get called the embarrassing ones? how the sc community treats its celebs is no different to how fans of any sport treat the famous people, theres tides of public opinion, there oustings of individuals, fairly or unfairly, and theres people who with an emotional point of view maybe dont consider the facts before they speak out. this happens eeeeeeeveeeerywhere how have the celebrities managed to convince us that we are the toxic ones in this community? when they are the ones smoking and swearing on a show that will be seen by kids. fucking magic trick i tell you
now before i get another twenty replies saying omg who cares about smoking, id like to just let people know they are missing the point. the fact is, the most popular people in our community are just as bad if not worse than anyone posting either here or on reddit in terms of 'being embarrassing' so when we get yet another interview where the people that we built up shit back down on us because we dont behave exactly how they want, i want them to get called out on that shit because it pisses me off to no end.
every single pro that 'makes it big' in this community is so two faced, they go from loving reddit or whatever for building them up to shitting all over the average poster or viewer for not loving every little detail, fuck those guys.
Typical drama queen redditor right here.
It's not their job to please people like you so deal with it.
No, but it would seem that having a job whose "promotion" is reliant on positive branding and community well being would be predisposed to treat entertainment positions as successes when community support is high.
Since SC2 seems reluctant to let new casting talent into the scene, it's only a matter of time before we all start disliking commentators when they fail to innovate and achieve the same successes they once had. Not saying this is the case for Tasteless, I suppose a better example would be HD and Painuser in this regard.
No no no no, you redditors just want everyone to pander to your hivemind and suck your cock.
On July 21 2012 02:40 fraktoasters wrote: 4) The online community is embarrassing. Deal with it.
How can you even say such a thing? There are some idiots around, sure, but name a place on earth where there aren't.
The online community creates amazing strategy and learning guides to share with others, the online community creates tons of streamed video entertainment for free, the online community donated over 40000 dollars for "liquid rising" within days, the online community does live reporting for those who can't watch, again, for free, they help each other out with strategy advice and information all the time, they organize events, they create cool graphics and artwork for events and casters or just for fun, they develop software tools, they create and host replay, vod and stats sites and even produce freaking music videos, they support their heros with great dedication, which makes them heros in the first place. Look at the communication platform and information resource that TL.net is. Listen to day9 when he describes how awesome his viewers who write to him and hang out in his stream chat are.
I like the fact that Real Talk doesn't have a formal structure to it. Yes, there are some overall guiding questions and outlines, but the way the interviews just kind of, flow, from one topic to another makes it, as IdrA put it in his Real Talk episode, "not awkward" (liberal quotation).
Great work JP! Becoming one of my favorite Esports shows out there.
Btw, I think you linked Destiny's real talk episode under DJ Wheat's section in the OP.
On July 21 2012 02:40 fraktoasters wrote: 4) The online community is embarrassing. Deal with it.
How can you even say such a thing? There are some idiots around, sure, but name a place on earth where there aren't.
The online community creates amazing strategy and learning guides to share with others, the online community creates tons of streamed video entertainment for free, the online community donated over 40000 dollars for "liquid rising" within days, the online community does live reporting for those who can't watch, again, for free, they help each other out with strategy advice and information all the time, they organize events, they create cool graphics and artwork for events and casters or just for fun, they develop software tools, they create and host replay, vod and stats sites and even produce freaking music videos, they support their heros with great dedication, which makes them heros in the first place. Look at the communication platform and information resource that TL.net is. Listen to day9 when he describes how awesome his viewers who write to him and hang out in his stream chat are.
How can you even say such a thing?
I don't think that's what tasteless means, because none of the things you mentioned are relevant to his overall explanation of why he doesn't read forums. I'm sure he's more than happy to acknowledge that the community gets behind good initiatives from time to time, but the vast majority of posts on TL/Reddit/etc offer no useful constructive criticism. What's more, the mob mentality detracts from actual discussion of whether something is a good idea or not. Pretty soon you have people with PhDs in armchair philosophy coming on that dragging everyone down to the depths of linguistics or some bullshit (seriously, go find the Destiny/Orb threads and read how it turned from "omfg!" to a discussion of the meaning of language and a meta-sociological analysis of racism; all because someone said the N-word on stream). It's just not useful. Most of the things that this community has gone up in arms over haven't really been as big of a deal as the community has made them out to be. Even the biggest ones, like the outing of hackers, are, to be honest, not really that big. They don't endanger the legitimacy of eSports in the way that some people melodramatically proclaimed. The problem I think Tasteless has with online forums is that everyone talks with authority, and everyone gives their 2 cents even if they have no idea what they're talking about. Unfortunately, this isn't good for argument because it's a sort of rule by mob majority. People read a thread, decide where their own personal biases lie, and then focus on winning the argument rather than actually doing what's best of the game/the people involved.
That's why online forums are useless. There's so much presumption, needless rhetoric, retardedly long and misleadingly complicated debates that you can't read through a thread and actually extract anything from it unless it's totally non-controversial.
On July 21 2012 02:40 fraktoasters wrote: 4) The online community is embarrassing. Deal with it.
How can you even say such a thing? There are some idiots around, sure, but name a place on earth where there aren't.
The online community creates amazing strategy and learning guides to share with others, the online community creates tons of streamed video entertainment for free, the online community donated over 40000 dollars for "liquid rising" within days, the online community does live reporting for those who can't watch, again, for free, they help each other out with strategy advice and information all the time, they organize events, they create cool graphics and artwork for events and casters or just for fun, they develop software tools, they create and host replay, vod and stats sites and even produce freaking music videos, they support their heros with great dedication, which makes them heros in the first place. Look at the communication platform and information resource that TL.net is. Listen to day9 when he describes how awesome his viewers who write to him and hang out in his stream chat are.
How can you even say such a thing?
Because it is. There's two sides to each coin. You're right, there's a side which does amazing things. Then there's the other, much louder side. You can ignore them fine, but they're still embarrassing as hell.
On July 21 2012 02:48 TeslasPigeon wrote: JP needs to challenge his viewers opinions, even if he agrees with them, it's how you create interesting interviews. He doesn't need to create a red menace, he just needs to challenge his guests otherwise it comes off as an audiobook of liquidpedia. A journalists JP is not, but he can easily improve if he desires.
Actually, JP doesn't have to do shit. He goes and does these off-the-cuff interviews with people who are popular in the ESports community for no reason other than he wants to do them. He has no obligation to, no necessity to, and no need to change anything about his show that he doesn't want to. It's a bit absurd to start naming things he should be doing on a show that he could literally stop doing tomorrow. This is something JP wants to do how JP wants to do it, so if you think there should be a harder-hitting interview show, maybe you should look into doing it yourself.
Love every episode so far, JP. Keep doing what you think you should be doing!
On July 21 2012 02:48 TeslasPigeon wrote: JP needs to challenge his viewers opinions, even if he agrees with them, it's how you create interesting interviews. He doesn't need to create a red menace, he just needs to challenge his guests otherwise it comes off as an audiobook of liquidpedia. A journalists JP is not, but he can easily improve if he desires.
Actually, JP doesn't have to do shit. He goes and does these off-the-cuff interviews with people who are popular in the ESports community for no reason other than he wants to do them. He has no obligation to, no necessity to, and no need to change anything about his show that he doesn't want to. It's a bit absurd to start naming things he should be doing on a show that he could literally stop doing tomorrow. This is something JP wants to do how JP wants to do it, so if you think there should be a harder-hitting interview show, maybe you should look into doing it yourself.
Love every episode so far, JP. Keep doing what you think you should be doing!
The online community is an embarrasment especially when you compare it to individuals offline. There's a reason we need mods in chat. Hell TL is the most modded community that I know, and you still get douchebags posts a plenty.
For me one the most important things Nick points out is how the players and commentators have depression. Nick is a happy guy.If that means ignoring forums to maintain that mental fortitude more power to him. I like him as a caster, that's his job and he does how I like it.
I thought his interview was REAL...he's a REAL dude because he's very blunt. I didn't feel like he would have dodged any question JP might have asked him.
lol pretty sure what hes getting at is this shit we do...taking 2 sentences he says and psycho analyzing every amount of meaning out of it possible. It actually is a complete waste of time. Also take note he said he is bothered a lot by american culture and stuff and this has become part of our culture with all the media disection, so its probably all this. I don't really find it offensive as a fan, just more of yeah probably should just be entertained and go on with our lives.
On July 20 2012 23:48 turdburgler wrote: i really enjoy real talk for what it is, an extended series of talk with people who dont often speak, enjoyable for that. but just like mlgs other extended series i find it irritating and missing the point. i wish the questions were more hard hitting and that JP would make the speaker back up what they were saying and articulate their argument better, because i get frustrated when an otherwise likable person says something stupid and gets away with it.
this was brought up on reddit and it really grinds my gears when i hear stuff like this. but even if JP agrees with him, the least he could do (as ive seen djwheat do, which i appreciate) is play devils advocate so that they can actually argue their point rather than just state it and act smug because no one disagrees with them.
ill just copy what i wrote on reddit.
i dont get how people map hack(aka cheat), or get put in jail or whatevers new this week and yet we, the wider community, get called the embarrassing ones? how the sc community treats its celebs is no different to how fans of any sport treat the famous people, theres tides of public opinion, there oustings of individuals, fairly or unfairly, and theres people who with an emotional point of view maybe dont consider the facts before they speak out. this happens eeeeeeeveeeerywhere how have the celebrities managed to convince us that we are the toxic ones in this community? when they are the ones smoking and swearing on a show that will be seen by kids. fucking magic trick i tell you
now before i get another twenty replies saying omg who cares about smoking, id like to just let people know they are missing the point. the fact is, the most popular people in our community are just as bad if not worse than anyone posting either here or on reddit in terms of 'being embarrassing' so when we get yet another interview where the people that we built up shit back down on us because we dont behave exactly how they want, i want them to get called out on that shit because it pisses me off to no end.
every single pro that 'makes it big' in this community is so two faced, they go from loving reddit or whatever for building them up to shitting all over the average poster or viewer for not loving every little detail, fuck those guys.
I think you are overreacting. You take one part of the interview. But in the entire interview he had gave many other reasons, but to some up:
- He does not need the forums for feedback, he has other methods - He enjoys fan interaction on events, in real life, people are much nicer in RL. - He does not have the time available to go through forums - SC2 is only part of his life, and not his whole life - He does not enjoy going through forums (forums not mature enough), and he does not look for a community feel online, but in real life. This was also clear from him not enjoying MMOs, it was pretty easy to see that he is not one of those people who lives his live in the virtual world.
Why would JP start an argument with him, when it is a personal opinion? Should he say, no Tasteless, it is wrong that you think that! You should like the forums!
(by the way you kind of proof his point, with this witchhunt like post of yours )
i dont think witch hunt means what you think it means
because i disagree with tasteless on one topic, because i dislike the direction real talk is going (even though i like the show and tasteless overall) im somehow on a witch hunter to what? oust him from his job at gom? i dont know what you are accusing me of here
and you say im overreacting
Just relisten the interview, reread my post, reread your own. Then think if you have reached a valid conclusion. He is not hating on the community, he loves the community when he meets people on events. What he does not enjoy is reading through online forums. Apparantly you see this as an act of betrayal...
noooo i dont care that he doesnt visit TL or reddit thats his choice, i dont care. what i hate is how he, and others get to sit there in 'public' and take a massive dump on us calling us embarrassing. sure he may like the 1% of SC fans who have the money to go out to korea to see the GSL live, thats nice for them and him. but 99% of people will only ever 'interact' with the community through reddit, and him calling people who post there embarrassing is a dick move.
so if hes gonna sit there and defend idra in 1 moment saying, oh its ok, because offline hes a nice guy. but then call the online mob persona of the fans embarrassing i want JP to call him on his bullshit and say that he needs to defend his opinion better.
1) He goes to a lot of foreign events so he doesn't just meet the fans in Korea 2) Everyone says this about live fans (that they're unbelievably nice) and this about online fans (that it's embarrassing and pros don't want to be a part of it) 3) 99% of people don't interact with the community through TL/reddit. People who post on these websites are the vocal minority. 4) The online community is embarrassing. Deal with it.
I believe turdburgler is trying to point out that Real Talk is indistinguishable from a circlejerk, where guests come on the show and get thrown softballs on a two hour commercial to increase their brand and image in exchange for a few stories and two mildly interesting questions.
JP needs to challenge his viewers opinions, even if he agrees with them, it's how you create interesting interviews. He doesn't need to create a red menace, he just needs to challenge his guests otherwise it comes off as an audiobook of liquidpedia. A journalists JP is not, but he can easily improve if he desires.
He asks them questions; they answer. If he wants further clarification he might ask a follow up - if not, he'll move on. This isn't a talk show; you want it to be SotG in a 1on1 situation. I like JP, but I don't watch Real Talk to hear his opinions and he knows that. People watch the episodes to learn and hear the guest talk about various subjects.
I'm not sure what you think "hard balls" in terms of SC2 and the community would be. I challenge you to make a list of a few questions that would actually be interesting and meaningful for some of these people to be asked. It should be noted that, the questions should pertain relevantly to them; not simply questions that anybody can answer.
Edit: it should also be noted that he does community questions now, so just make sure to post the questions to JP on the reddit thread or maybe twitter and if they're actually good, maybe they'll get used.
It's amazing how accurate tasteless described America as a second world country. What he said has really stuck with me for the past few days, and I couldn't really decide if I agree with him or not completely.
But with recent events, I think he's really correct.
On July 21 2012 02:48 TeslasPigeon wrote: JP needs to challenge his viewers opinions, even if he agrees with them, it's how you create interesting interviews. He doesn't need to create a red menace, he just needs to challenge his guests otherwise it comes off as an audiobook of liquidpedia. A journalists JP is not, but he can easily improve if he desires.
Actually, JP doesn't have to do shit. He goes and does these off-the-cuff interviews with people who are popular in the ESports community for no reason other than he wants to do them. He has no obligation to, no necessity to, and no need to change anything about his show that he doesn't want to. It's a bit absurd to start naming things he should be doing on a show that he could literally stop doing tomorrow. This is something JP wants to do how JP wants to do it, so if you think there should be a harder-hitting interview show, maybe you should look into doing it yourself.
Love every episode so far, JP. Keep doing what you think you should be doing!
On July 21 2012 02:40 fraktoasters wrote: 4) The online community is embarrassing. Deal with it.
How can you even say such a thing? There are some idiots around, sure, but name a place on earth where there aren't.
The online community creates amazing strategy and learning guides to share with others, the online community creates tons of streamed video entertainment for free, the online community donated over 40000 dollars for "liquid rising" within days, the online community does live reporting for those who can't watch, again, for free, they help each other out with strategy advice and information all the time, they organize events, they create cool graphics and artwork for events and casters or just for fun, they develop software tools, they create and host replay, vod and stats sites and even produce freaking music videos, they support their heros with great dedication, which makes them heros in the first place. Look at the communication platform and information resource that TL.net is. Listen to day9 when he describes how awesome his viewers who write to him and hang out in his stream chat are.
How can you even say such a thing?
Beautiful! How can you not feel a comradery with this community, after all you are part of it.
EPT
)
