Great: Zerg -> Terran Firebathero: Terran-> Protoss Chavi: Zerg -> Protoss -Air Force Coach Song Dong Kyun states: First of all, FBH changed to Protoss. His skill is really good and he is very high level. You may expect much from him. Also, Great and Chavi changed their races in SCII.
Flash: Terran -> Terran -KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon states: Flash wanted to try Protoss but has not changed the race. It is too early to decide whether to change or not.
Leta: Terran -> Terran Rush: Terran -> Zerg -CJ Entus coach Kim Dong Woo states: Leta gave a try playing Protoss but returned playing Terran. Rush played Terran in BW but he is currently playing Zerg in SCII. We still have to wait until he actually plays in tournaments to see which race he chooses.
Jangbi: Protoss -> Protoss -Samsung Khan coach January states: As "Jangbi" wanted to change to Terran, he has tried playing as Terran, but eventually could not give up on his original race Protoss. However, he still says Terran is better.
Light: Terran -> Terran -Woongjin Stars coach Lee Jae Kyun states: Light tried playing Protoss for three days but kept his original race. I heard there is only one player in our team who is still trying to change the race. -Light states: Even I think Zerg seems to be the weakest. If you play well enough, Terran seems to be just as good in BW but it is not really "good yet." It is much harder to adapt to Terran of SCII than BW. -STX Soul coach Kim Eun Dong states: That is Calm -Calm states: Before I began to play SCII, I have thought a lot about choosing races. Out of all the reasons to change, I think it would be fun to play as a different race. Also for the fan's perspective, I think they would feel refreshed to see the BW players to play as different races.
Team 8 Coach Han Sang-Yong states: No players in our team changed races. However, we are still keeping it into a consideration because the Zerg players are having a lot of trouble. ***** This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII.
- Movie has changed his team to Team 8, and he also has started to play SCII recently.
SKT1 coach Park Yong Woon states: Our team has tried playing different races in SCII but since it was very hard to adapt I have asked to keep the original races. All of SKT1 players chose to play the same race as in BW.
Interesting interview question asked to Stork and Flash: When I asked the GSL players, they stated that if you were good in BW you will be good in SCII. But, to become "competitive" it takes about 6 months of practice at least. How long do you think it will take for you guys [Stork and Flash]?
-Stork: My skill in SCII is not up to par yet so I cannot say being good in BW means you will be good in SCII. I think what determines your skill is how well you adapt to SCII. We practice SCII mostly on the ladder but compared to existing GSL players, we are not good enough [they are much better].
-Flash states: I think it would take about three months of practice to become competitive in SCII scene. However, strictly speaking it would take at least an year. To become as good as I was in BW, it would take about 2-3 years.
Much of the source is from what I read on Fomos. If you have anything to add or comment, feel free to do so.
Expect HOTS to completely change Zerg's strength, with what vipers and swarm hosts and all the upgrades. These guys should just stick with what they're comfortable with rather than what they perceive now to be imbalance.
Team 8 Coach Han Sang-Yong states: No players in our team changed races.
Please Jaedong, stick to zerg! We need him to bring zerg gameplay to the next level
Hopefully he can. But as Jaedong seems to not have started jet it might be difficult. Maybe with the new units.
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
I think this might be due to ladder practice. Artosis mentioned that the korean ladder is full of aggressive strange cheese builds... probably with the current zerg arsenal it is hard to play against that. But i am only assuming. Maybe someone who is acctually playing there knows more about it
I hope Flash sticks to Terran. Realistically, which ever race Flash plays is going to get the most nerfs, so us lower-level players are gonna suffer by playing the same race.
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
I think this might be due to ladder practice. Artosis mentioned that the korean ladder is full of aggressive strange cheese builds... probably with the current zerg arsenal it is hard to play against that. But i am only assuming. Maybe someone who is acctually playing there knows more about it
No, i don't think so. Ofc you can win with Zerg and so on. But one problem with SCII right now is, that for Zerg it's very hard to win constantly, because you are reluctant on mistakes of the other races more then those are reluctant on Zergs mistakes. Just my opinion. Although I'm only a Diamond Zerg who played Terran before. But it's my experience and also the way you see Zerg pros struggle to constantly get very good tournement results... look at DRG, Stephano or Nestea. All of them get knocked out in a very early round of a tournement in the last few major tournaments. I think that Terran is the most consistent race. Protoss is hard to tell but Toss is getting better and better in the last time.
Jangbi: Protoss -> Protoss -Samsung Khan coach January states: As "Jangbi" wanted to change to Terran, he has tried playing as Terran, but eventually could not give up on his original race Protoss. However, he still says Terran is better.
Actually was hoping Bisu were to make that switch to Terran. Well maybe in the future. I hope Flash does remain Terran though. A bit bummed FBH decided to go Toss, but if he wins, his ceremonies would make MC's look like nothing.
That's all part of the Media Day: SK Planet Proleague Season 2 thread. Calm (Z->T), FireBatHero (T->P), Great (Z->T), Chavi (Z->P), Rush (T->Z) All other progamers are confirmed to keep race. Every team confirmed which (if any) players switch race.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
except for KR ladder you overestimate quite a bit what top 5 master lvl is...
On May 11 2012 03:46 YoucriedWolf wrote: Also for the fan's perspective, I think they would feel refreshed to see the BW players to play as different races.
HOW ABOUT NO
I am refreshed. Refreshed as a daisy on a summer's day.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
Been top 8 for 2 seasons now. Recently I've been playing less.
I heard Soulkey and ZerO are doing damn well in KR SC2 ladder and adapting well to the new game. Is this true?Cuz if it is i will be so happy to see these 2 top zergs to play well in SC2.
Other BW players are struggling with SC2 and i don't really hear any news regarding Jaedong.
On May 11 2012 03:46 YoucriedWolf wrote: Also for the fan's perspective, I think they would feel refreshed to see the BW players to play as different races.
HOW ABOUT NO
They can do whatever they want, it's their choice, lmao.
We've seen a lot of role reversals in SC2.
Zerg is really hard to master at the moment and I don't blame the zergs feeling this way, but once they get their chops and game sense going. Zerg can be incredibly strong. I have high expectations with HotS too.
I think Zerg will become the preferred race, but once again that's all speculation. Just have to wait and see. :D
On May 11 2012 03:50 FakeDeath wrote: I heard Soulkey and ZerO are doing damn well in KR SC2 ladder and adapting well to the new game. Is this true?Cuz if it is i will be so happy to see these 2 top zergs to play well in SC2.
Other BW players are struggling with SC2 and i don't really hear any news regarding Jaedong.
That would be something else because right now those guys are the go-to guys for BW as well for Zergs.
When I played zerg in season one, I found gold to be very hard, then steamrolled platinium directly into diamond. What I mean is I feel that each race has some automatism who greatly improve your play. Once you triggered some you make a skill jump. Like once you have decent larva inject, it can really improve your game a lot as you can't miss larva inject without being punished against cheeses, or even simple pressure early in the game.
On May 11 2012 03:43 dragonborn wrote: Jangbi: Protoss -> Protoss -Samsung Khan coach January states: As "Jangbi" wanted to change to Terran, he has tried playing as Terran, but eventually could not give up on his original race Protoss. However, he still says Terran is better.
On May 11 2012 03:46 YoucriedWolf wrote: Also for the fan's perspective, I think they would feel refreshed to see the BW players to play as different races.
HOW ABOUT NO
Wow. Didn't know the players had to ask you for permission. Better inform them and their coaches.
As I predicted well before they started playing or practicing sc2. The game may have similar characteristics and style but it is definitely a different game and with all games it takes a immense amount of quality time to be top tier pro level. Good to see people are not being ignorant to that fact still and are more sincere in their answers.
On May 11 2012 03:34 StaplerPhone wrote: As long as JD is still zerg
Is he confirmed to be playing? Havent really heard anything out of JD in terms of SC 2
He hasn't retired and T8 is playing sc2, so it's pretty safe to assume.
Interesting how they feel about zerg and balance in general, as they have a very unique view on that. I hope they take hots and the fact that there is another expansion to follow in consideration when choosing races. From the games I saw FBH seems to actually do really well as protoss. I really hope the first sc2 OSL and GSL don't overlaps so we can see everyone play in both leagues (kinda like msl and osl used to be).
I just hope Bisu and Jaedong stay as Protoss and Zerg. It seems quite common that terran either consider switching or switch to protoss and vice versa.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
And there goes elitism.
It's not elitism. The game is balanced enough that the tiny imbalances won't decide your games.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
Having a hard time doesn't mean, it's a hard race. Srsly bro, these are BW pros. They used to incredible multitasking and micro. "Having a hard time" means, they're not used to the way zerg is played in SC2. It's different from SC1. Maybe they realise, that SC2 zerg can't be played like BW zerg, which means they lack success in training against others. Doesn't mean Zerg is harder to play.
I think zergs are having trouble because zerg requires the player to have a understanding about opponent timings/builds etc while P/T can do their own thing much more.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
Having a hard time doesn't mean, it's a hard race. Srsly bro, these are BW pros. They used to incredible multitasking and micro. "Having a hard time" means, they're not used to the way zerg is played in SC2. It's different from SC1. Maybe they realise, that SC2 zerg can't be played like BW zerg, which means they lack success in training against others. Doesn't mean Zerg is harder to play.
Agree with oozer on this one. In SC2 Zerg is the race where you lose to inferior players until you figure out all the different timings. It just takes time, don't expect all of these BW pros to be godly at the game after only a few weeks of practice.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
On May 11 2012 03:34 StaplerPhone wrote: As long as JD is still zerg
Is he confirmed to be playing? Havent really heard anything out of JD in terms of SC 2
Jaedong is busy overseeing the construction of new golden and platinum mouses to be delivered to his house after he's done winning every single SC2 event in the next 2 years. Including the proleague. By himself.
Good to hear Jangbi didn't left Aiur Flash may sound modest, but at the same time I feel he knows what he's talking about - ripping GSL apart will take more than 3 months of training.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
Having a hard time doesn't mean, it's a hard race. Srsly bro, these are BW pros. They used to incredible multitasking and micro. "Having a hard time" means, they're not used to the way zerg is played in SC2. It's different from SC1. Maybe they realise, that SC2 zerg can't be played like BW zerg, which means they lack success in training against others. Doesn't mean Zerg is harder to play.
While that is true when you look at the last 2 GSL results you notice zerg is strugling. Yea DRG won but he was the only zerg to even make it to ro8, this season there wasn't even one in ro8.
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
I think this might be due to ladder practice. Artosis mentioned that the korean ladder is full of aggressive strange cheese builds... probably with the current zerg arsenal it is hard to play against that. But i am only assuming. Maybe someone who is acctually playing there knows more about it
No, i don't think so. Ofc you can win with Zerg and so on. But one problem with SCII right now is, that for Zerg it's very hard to win constantly, because you are reluctant on mistakes of the other races more then those are reluctant on Zergs mistakes. Just my opinion. Although I'm only a Diamond Zerg who played Terran before. But it's my experience and also the way you see Zerg pros struggle to constantly get very good tournement results... look at DRG, Stephano or Nestea. All of them get knocked out in a very early round of a tournement in the last few major tournaments. I think that Terran is the most consistent race. Protoss is hard to tell but Toss is getting better and better in the last time.
Yes, DRG, Stephano and Nestea all have terrible tournament results. Great argument from a Diamond zerg.
Interesting, it would be quite the statement if the switching pros wouldn't pick Zerg almost at all, im sure someone will draw up a stat once all the data is available
On May 11 2012 04:20 zezamer wrote: I think zergs are having trouble because zerg requires the player to have a understanding about opponent timings/builds etc while P/T can do their own thing much more.
It was the same in BW. Zerg hasn't changed in terms of that. It's not new to them really.
They're going to be playing in a combined BW/SC2 league for months, which requires players to alternate between both games. They're going to suck trying to practice for both games until they fully complete the switch. BW play was so sloppy recently while they were secretly practicing SC2.
It's probably even worse for the ones that switched races.
On May 11 2012 04:38 JOJOsc2news wrote: Would you mind posting the sources under the quotes? That'd be great.
I got sources from various articles on Fomos. However, you can't get an exact link anymore from fomos since like 2 weeks ago because they changed it for some reason (ex. every single page is just http://fomos.kr)
As a Zerg player in BW who switched races during the sc2 beta, I just wanted to say that "zerg players are having a difficult time transitioning to zerg in sc2" is not the same thing as "zerg in sc2 is bad." I feel like zerg was affected much more than the other races by the changes in worker saturation, which really changes the zerg game plan. Also, I feel like lurker, mutilisk, and defiler control were also very important defining characteristics of a good zerg in bw that don't come into play in sc2 (obviously mutas are still good, but they play very differently). But none on these thing actually mean that zerg is worse or even harder than terran or protoss in sc2. However, I wouldn't be suprised if more bw zerg switch than terran or protoss just because the transition to sc2 with zerg feels so wierd. To be honest after playing bw zerg, sc2 zerg just seems really boring and lame.
On May 11 2012 04:38 JOJOsc2news wrote: Would you mind posting the sources under the quotes? That'd be great.
I got sources from various articles on Fomos. However, you can't get an exact link anymore from fomos since like 2 weeks ago because they changed it for some reason (ex. every single page is just http://fomos.kr)
I'd love for all of the BW players to stick with their current races, but at the end of the day only they know whats best for them. After having been pro players they'd have to know by now which race suits their style more. Hell, maybe some of the B teamers could be damn near S class players if they switched up races?
I think the players should think about how their style will fit their new races.
Leta: definitely stay terran. He loves being cute and aggressive, and terran has the most options for that kind of play
Flash: Not really sure because to me he has no real "style". On one hand he loves greedy macro builds and playing for the lategame, which would be better fit as toss or zerg imo. On the other hand, he has always had a penchant for mixing in cheese. I don't think it really matters for a player of his caliber.
Jangbi: His lategame control is amazing and he should stick to toss, maybe zerg as well. I never thought he should have been toss in BW anyway.
Movie: Terran imo. loves mixing things up with non-standard play similar to leta.
yes, in BW there was this unit called the wraith, ahd 120 hp, was fragile as shit, dealt 9 dmg to ground (more to air), cost a lot, and had similar cloacking to the banshee. Basically it was the weakest or 2nd weakest anti ground unit in the game, and Leta used to rape Zergs with them (Lomo too) now, Banshees have oen of the best anti ground atck, do the math
but wraith were stacking like mutards :p 2port banshee or any banshee play is kinda different but ye i guess Leta is the man, everyone knew hes probably gonna 2port and he still wins most of tvzs
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
And there goes elitism.
It's not elitism. The game is balanced enough that the tiny imbalances won't decide your games.
Who are you to say the game is "balanced enough"? For the game to really be balanced, two people of even skill should always play very close games. Therefore, balance is just as relevant for lower leagues as higher leagues because skill is a factor. Skill is impossible to give a value to of course so testing balance is near impossible.
yes, in BW there was this unit called the wraith, ahd 120 hp, was fragile as shit, dealt 9 dmg to ground (more to air), cost a lot, and had similar cloacking to the banshee. Basically it was the weakest or 2nd weakest anti ground unit in the game, and Leta used to rape Zergs with them (Lomo too) now, Banshees have oen of the best anti ground atck, do the math
On May 11 2012 04:40 SarcasmMonster wrote: Jaedong isn't even the best Zerg anymore. Silly fanboys.
Jaedong is still the greatest though. He may be slumping lately, but he remains only rivaled by Flash and no one else. If all his dong power is channeled into rebuilding a new zerg style in SC2, he could unleash the wrath of hell upon this earth.
I love Soulkey and Zero (Woongjin <3) but they aren't even at 1/3rd of the star power of Jaedong yet in terms of success, despite recently Soulkey playing better zerg than Jaedong overall.
yes, in BW there was this unit called the wraith, ahd 120 hp, was fragile as shit, dealt 9 dmg to ground (more to air), cost a lot, and had similar cloacking to the banshee. Basically it was the weakest or 2nd weakest anti ground unit in the game, and Leta used to rape Zergs with them (Lomo too) now, Banshees have oen of the best anti ground atck, do the math
but they lack air attack to snipe overlords. :-(
Don't need to snipe overlords when everything else on the ground is dead.
yes, in BW there was this unit called the wraith, ahd 120 hp, was fragile as shit, dealt 9 dmg to ground (more to air), cost a lot, and had similar cloacking to the banshee. Basically it was the weakest or 2nd weakest anti ground unit in the game, and Leta used to rape Zergs with them (Lomo too) now, Banshees have oen of the best anti ground atck, do the math
Actually it only does 8 dmg to ground. I remember because it does the same dmg as Scouts, rofl.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
And there goes elitism.
It's not elitism. The game is balanced enough that the tiny imbalances won't decide your games.
Who are you to say the game is "balanced enough"? For the game to really be balanced, two people of even skill should always play very close games. Therefore, balance is just as relevant for lower leagues as higher leagues because skill is a factor. Skill is impossible to give a value to of course so testing balance is near impossible.
It is impossible for Blizzard to balance the game for every skill level. Do you think Blizzard should balance for high level play or low level play?
I forget where I read it... but someone made a great post about how this whole mixed league situation is incredibly unfair to the players =\ I'll keep looking for it, might have been on reddit.
On another note, I hope the majority of the players making the switch don't play Terran.
As a zerg and as a Jaedong fan, I actually don't want the guy to switch to Zerg. I want him to maintain his death stare, not a sad face we've been seeing from the top Zergs recently.
Seems like most of them kept the same races, not really that "extreme"... I like Flash's POV the best, "take 2-3 years to be as good as he was" meaning that he isn't coming in thinking "I'm god" but thinking "I will be god again"
Seriously, these guys need to wait for HOTS. Or Blizzard should at least provide them with early access to HOTS. It just seems strange, they're figuring out the future of their careers through the inevitable switch to SC2, and HOTS really looks like it'll change a lot of things.
Besides, WOL is fine as it is. When looking at SC2 far in the future, WOL should remain as SC2: Part One, the part where no one really dominated the scene for a while and people were figuring out the game for the longest time.
Whereas I'm hoping SC2: Part Two will be the part where Brood War pros switch, the term 'bonjwa' is finally used, and the gap between foreigners and Koreans widen even more.
On May 11 2012 05:54 spbelky wrote: I forget where I read it... but someone made a great post about how this whole mixed league situation is incredibly unfair to the players =\ I'll keep looking for it, might have been on reddit.
On another note, I hope the majority of the players making the switch don't play Terran.
It was on MVP interview, that he said that they didnt took the players into consideration.
i am so hoping they dont switch their races will confuse me so much..... at least it looks like, they dont namechange like most of the current ex-bwpros do.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
And there goes elitism.
It's not elitism. The game is balanced enough that the tiny imbalances won't decide your games.
Who are you to say the game is "balanced enough"? For the game to really be balanced, two people of even skill should always play very close games. Therefore, balance is just as relevant for lower leagues as higher leagues because skill is a factor. Skill is impossible to give a value to of course so testing balance is near impossible.
It is impossible for Blizzard to balance the game for every skill level. Do you think Blizzard should balance for high level play or low level play?
High level ofc. I was just tired of people saying balance doesn't exist in the lower leagues because it does. And really who should they balance for? The Korean scene shows zergs are having far more trouble than they are in the foreign scene so a zerg buff will make the Korean zergs on par but may make the foreign zergs more powerful in their respective scenes.
"This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII."
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks zerg is so hard in sc2.
I wonder what Blizzard will think of this?
Does that mean the zerg players from broodwar that play zerg in sc2?
What league are you? Unless you're top 5 Master you really shouldn't say anything about "Zerg feeling hard". The effect of balance on your results is dwarfed by the effect of your own skill.
And there goes elitism.
It's not elitism. The game is balanced enough that the tiny imbalances won't decide your games.
Who are you to say the game is "balanced enough"? For the game to really be balanced, two people of even skill should always play very close games. Therefore, balance is just as relevant for lower leagues as higher leagues because skill is a factor. Skill is impossible to give a value to of course so testing balance is near impossible.
It is impossible for Blizzard to balance the game for every skill level. Do you think Blizzard should balance for high level play or low level play?
High level ofc. I was just tired of people saying balance doesn't exist in the lower leagues because it does. And really who should they balance for? The Korean scene shows zergs are having far more trouble than they are in the foreign scene so a zerg buff will make the Korean zergs on par but may make the foreign zergs more powerful in their respective scenes.
lower leagues everything is beaten with basic cheese defense knowledge and better macro
do you think imbalance exists when everyone is playing 20% efficiency, or are lower league players making excuses for their losses?
The problem with changing to Protoss due to their imbalance, is that soon enough Blizzard are going to balance them anyway..so there's only going to be a short window of oppertunity to abuse their power. And as for Zerg being too weak, the same premise would be true in reverse; especially with HoTS coming soon.
I would prefer to see my old heros playing their standard races! I almost feel sorry for Jaedong and Flash. Everybody expects them to perform better than the current GSL CODE-S champions even before they know the mechanics of the game correctly. The only person who has a very high chance of performing amazingly outright in my opinion, would be Stork or Bisu if they change. I think their dragoon control skills will transfer well to stalker micro. And holding bases is wildly easier for Protoss in Starcraft 2 than it was in broodwar. Good thread! Thanks for posting!
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
I think this might be due to ladder practice. Artosis mentioned that the korean ladder is full of aggressive strange cheese builds... probably with the current zerg arsenal it is hard to play against that. But i am only assuming. Maybe someone who is acctually playing there knows more about it
No, i don't think so. Ofc you can win with Zerg and so on. But one problem with SCII right now is, that for Zerg it's very hard to win constantly, because you are reluctant on mistakes of the other races more then those are reluctant on Zergs mistakes. Just my opinion. Although I'm only a Diamond Zerg who played Terran before. But it's my experience and also the way you see Zerg pros struggle to constantly get very good tournement results... look at DRG, Stephano or Nestea. All of them get knocked out in a very early round of a tournement in the last few major tournaments. I think that Terran is the most consistent race. Protoss is hard to tell but Toss is getting better and better in the last time.
You meant reliant, not reluctant.
The situation you're speaking of doesn't apply to every game. Generally when that happens, zerg has put himself in a bad spot because of overreacting or teching incorrectly due to poor scouting or hidden tech from the opponent. You don't start a game reliant on the other races to make a mistake, you put yourself in that situation accidentally and then you're relying on the opponent to make a mistake to climb your way back into the game. The difference is the other races have options available to them that provide openings for a comeback that Zerg doesn't. It's not a balance issue either, it's just the way the race works.
I feel like the reason a lot of Zergs are switching is because of just how different BW zerg is compared to SC2. They're not even remotely similar in playstyle or mechanics. The race takes a lot of getting used to and I feel like pros that are used to being amazing are going to want to show instant results/progression which SC2 zerg isn't going to give. Those that choose to stick with it and grind out the early learning process will be absolutely fine.
This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII.
Eat that.
I'm not saying zerg is weaker, I don't even necessarily think they are. I've just always thought zerg is/was hard for players to adapt to. If they have trouble too, it makes ya kinda feel good about it.
You should prob include this for hype. Forgg: "When I started Starcraft 2 by myself at home, it took me about 2 months for me to reach top 10 in Grandmaster. If players work in a team, they should be able to do that even more quickly."
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
I think this might be due to ladder practice. Artosis mentioned that the korean ladder is full of aggressive strange cheese builds... probably with the current zerg arsenal it is hard to play against that. But i am only assuming. Maybe someone who is acctually playing there knows more about it
No, i don't think so. Ofc you can win with Zerg and so on. But one problem with SCII right now is, that for Zerg it's very hard to win constantly, because you are reluctant on mistakes of the other races more then those are reluctant on Zergs mistakes. Just my opinion. Although I'm only a Diamond Zerg who played Terran before. But it's my experience and also the way you see Zerg pros struggle to constantly get very good tournement results... look at DRG, Stephano or Nestea. All of them get knocked out in a very early round of a tournement in the last few major tournaments. I think that Terran is the most consistent race. Protoss is hard to tell but Toss is getting better and better in the last time.
You meant reliant, not reluctant.
The situation you're speaking of doesn't apply to every game. Generally when that happens, zerg has put himself in a bad spot because of overreacting or teching incorrectly due to poor scouting or hidden tech from the opponent. You don't start a game reliant on the other races to make a mistake, you put yourself in that situation accidentally and then you're relying on the opponent to make a mistake to climb your way back into the game. The difference is the other races have options available to them that provide openings for a comeback that Zerg doesn't. It's not a balance issue either, it's just the way the race works.
I feel like the reason a lot of Zergs are switching is because of just how different BW zerg is compared to SC2. They're not even remotely similar in playstyle or mechanics. The race takes a lot of getting used to and I feel like pros that are used to being amazing are going to want to show instant results/progression which SC2 zerg isn't going to give. Those that choose to stick with it and grind out the early learning process will be absolutely fine.
Not only that, but experience plays a huge factor in SC2 Zerg. We saw this at the beginning of SC2, where Zergs had to understand what all-ins/aggression to expect and how they had to control their units to counter or even stay alive. Zerg has an amazing ability to be reactive to an attack, but you have to know the precise way to react or you're screwed in today's top level of play. It gives the illusion that you aren't making progress or getting better, since there is a LOT of stuff they haven't seen in practice in the very small window they've been playing.
On May 11 2012 07:17 FlyingDike wrote: You should prob include this for hype. Forgg: "When I started Starcraft 2 by myself at home, it took me about 2 months for me to reach top 10 in Grandmaster. If players work in a team, they should be able to do that even more quickly."
Yeah and lets just forget the second part of his answer: "However, the problem is that Starcraft 2 is completely different to how it used to be. You have to pay attention to so many more things that may seem insignificant at first and skill on the ladder has improved considerably too. I improved pretty quickly then but if I were to do it now, it would take much longer. " ...
On May 11 2012 07:17 FlyingDike wrote: You should prob include this for hype. Forgg: "When I started Starcraft 2 by myself at home, it took me about 2 months for me to reach top 10 in Grandmaster. If players work in a team, they should be able to do that even more quickly."
Yeah and lets just forget the second part of his answer: "However, the problem is that Starcraft 2 is completely different to how it used to be. You have to pay attention to so many more things that may seem insignificant at first and skill on the ladder has improved considerably too. I improved pretty quickly then but if I were to do it now, it would take much longer. " ...
Of course...I finish the OP and get all excited about the possible race changes, and what do I see? Balance whining.
Asymmetical balance people. Get used to it. It existed in BW, it's not going anywhere.
More appropriately, Bisu stick with Toss! WOOT!
Not enough race switching to zerg, clearly it's a balance issue! As long as JD stays zerg, I'm cool with all the other race switching. Especially FBH ^^
On May 11 2012 07:32 MorroW wrote: "-KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon states: Flash wanted to try Protoss but has not changed the race. It is too early to decide whether to change or not."
if flash changes to protoss i might just kill myself
On the bright side if he's a dominant player as protoss we might get some protoss nerfs for zvp!
On May 11 2012 06:56 ThePlayer33 wrote: Please!! we need zerg heroes!!!!
Yes. They seem to prefer Terran or Protoss. Where's the love for the Swarm?? ^^
i think in the press conference the coaches or soemone were saying that zerg seemed to be the weakest race in SC2 (^^) so they are playing toss and some terran
On May 11 2012 07:32 MorroW wrote: "-KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon states: Flash wanted to try Protoss but has not changed the race. It is too early to decide whether to change or not."
if flash changes to protoss i might just kill myself
BW zerg is just so different from sc2 zerg, like more drastic (to me) than switching from bw terran or bw toss to terran or toss respectively. But I could be wrong, its just how i feel.
On May 11 2012 07:32 MorroW wrote: "-KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon states: Flash wanted to try Protoss but has not changed the race. It is too early to decide whether to change or not."
if flash changes to protoss i might just kill myself
On May 11 2012 07:56 mememolly wrote: so what are their handles on ladder and have they appeared on anyone's stream or any replays out there? (I'm aware of the FBH ones)
It would appear a lot of them hide themselves with ID's like "lllllllllll" which you'll see a lot of if you go check out the Korean ladder.
On May 11 2012 07:32 MorroW wrote: "-KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon states: Flash wanted to try Protoss but has not changed the race. It is too early to decide whether to change or not."
if flash changes to protoss i might just kill myself
On the bright side if he's a dominant player as protoss we might get some protoss nerfs for zvp!
SC II - The game where dominance gets patched.
That's the real reason we'll never get to see an SC II bonjwa.
On May 11 2012 07:17 FlyingDike wrote: You should prob include this for hype. Forgg: "When I started Starcraft 2 by myself at home, it took me about 2 months for me to reach top 10 in Grandmaster. If players work in a team, they should be able to do that even more quickly."
Yeah and lets just forget the second part of his answer: "However, the problem is that Starcraft 2 is completely different to how it used to be. You have to pay attention to so many more things that may seem insignificant at first and skill on the ladder has improved considerably too. I improved pretty quickly then but if I were to do it now, it would take much longer. " ...
lmao holy shit, that makes the first quote completely irrelevant, thanks for the context.
I think I'm most impressed by Flash's answer saying he would take 2-3 years to hit his BW skill in SC2. While it is a completely ridiculous statement to make, it proves his mindset and his plans span over a lonnngggg period of time.
it makes sense that some of the players change race, since in sc2 the races aren't played with the same playstyle as they were in sc bw (for example tvp the races kinda switched role in sc2 compared to sc bw.)
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
Or.... Maybe that zerg is the most prone to being cheesed which is what the ladder is full of and if a zerg doesn't perfectly scout an incoming cheese/all in he is most likely dead while T/P has an easier time surviving. And there's quite a lot of allins and cheeses for people just switching to SC2 to learn.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
Or.... Maybe that zerg is the most prone to being cheesed which is what the ladder is full of and if a zerg doesn't perfectly scout an incoming cheese/all in he is most likely dead while T/P has an easier time surviving. And there's quite a lot of allins and cheeses for people just switching to SC2 to learn.
These are BW progamers. If they're upset about a race, it's going to be because it's significantly different in style from BW, not because they have to learn to deal with cheeses.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
Or.... Maybe that zerg is the most prone to being cheesed which is what the ladder is full of and if a zerg doesn't perfectly scout an incoming cheese/all in he is most likely dead while T/P has an easier time surviving. And there's quite a lot of allins and cheeses for people just switching to SC2 to learn.
There are a lot of timings and stuff you need to learn just to have a basic shot at surviving the dozens of cheeses the other two races. Its also very a very fragile race, even if you know the timings, which makes it harder in formats lower than Bo5. Its also very very different from BW Zerg in soooo many ways.
I hope at least some of them will stick with it despite it being such a massive change from BW Zerg in style (drone count, zerglings, etc.). Here's hoping the overlord change will help some- it really did seem slightly slowed down in SC2.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
Or.... Maybe that zerg is the most prone to being cheesed which is what the ladder is full of and if a zerg doesn't perfectly scout an incoming cheese/all in he is most likely dead while T/P has an easier time surviving. And there's quite a lot of allins and cheeses for people just switching to SC2 to learn.
There are a lot of timings and stuff you need to learn just to have a basic shot at surviving the dozens of cheeses the other two races. Its also very a very fragile race, even if you know the timings, which makes it harder in formats lower than Bo5. Its also very very different from BW Zerg in soooo many ways.
I hope at least some of them will stick with it despite it being such a massive change from BW Zerg in style (drone count, zerglings, etc.). Here's hoping the overlord change will help some- it really did seem slightly slowed down in SC2.
Hopefully, it will be a very sad day if jaedong switches from zerg. Also lol at the people trying to say that Z doesn't get cheesed a lot or that it's a non issue.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
How interesting that all the SC2 critics who were so quick to jump into the Elephant in the Room thread when forgg won a couple games aren't so eager to bump it now that Flash has said it would take him 2-3 years to achieve bonjwa status .
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
This is a little example, broodwar micro was really high, almost all the units need a lot micro, engagements were more micro intensive
While i'll let you say the rest of those. Dragoon was just a retarded ai. i mean, it's like that special olympics kid who has no physical defects yet still gets in last place every time. Comparing dragoons to stalkers is just stupid. The other ones are actually micro potential, and not micro retarded.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
This is a little example, broodwar micro was really high, almost all the units need a lot micro, engagements were more micro intensive
While i'll let you say the rest of those. Dragoon was just a retarded ai. i mean, it's like that special olympics kid who has no physical defects yet still gets in last place every time. Comparing dragoons to stalkers is just stupid. The other ones are actually micro potential, and not micro retarded.
...?
The point is that you still had to micro them...and that microing them would get you WAY better results than not microing them. Now, there's a lot less of that, particularly with Zerg, which is in many respects about getting good engagements rather than pulling off any micro tricks.
On May 11 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote: How interesting that all the SC2 critics who were so quick to jump into the Elephant in the Room thread when forgg won a couple games aren't so eager to bump it now that Flash has said it would take him 2-3 years to achieve bonjwa status .
Flash saying it will take him 2-3 years to be the best and actually taking him 2-3 years are quite different. He's a modest person.
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
it'll be interesting seeing how well bw players adapt considering new mechanics are easier and will make it so they can't dominate as much as in BW since everyone will be on a "level" playing field
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
On May 11 2012 03:34 StaplerPhone wrote: As long as JD is still zerg
Is he confirmed to be playing? Havent really heard anything out of JD in terms of SC 2
You should read the news (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336363); he's most definitely playing SC2.
Read the entire thing, Jaedong is not mentioned.
They mentioned all high profile changes, he's still Zerg because he was not mentioned as a change. All players have to alternate between BW and SC2 per match (If you play BW in one match, your next match has to be in SC2 and vice versa). Therefore he is most definitely playing SC2 as any players who get playtime will be as well.
He doesn't have to be mentioned for people to figure out the obvious.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
did you even play broodwar
what you say makes no sense to anyone who has played modern 2hat or 3hat muta zvt
I'm pretty indifferent to the changes, and happy with the ones who didn't. Though, I was kind of hoping Bisu would go Terran. I really think SC2 Terran is pretty close to BW Protoss. Marine/marauder off a bunch of barracks feels similar to dragoon/zealot off a bunch of gateway.
I never felt like my BW Protoss experience related much at all to my SC2 Protoss play, and that Terran was more like the SC2 equivalent of Protoss.
Zerg->Zerg, Protoss->Terran, Terran->Terran, I thought were the most natural transitions. SC2 Protoss seems like a whole new thing so I was expecting the least people to switch to Protoss and the most to switch away from Protoss. I didn't think anyone would be making long term race decisions based on their current perceived strength of each race, but I guess if they were Protoss could be more popular and Zerg could be less popular. But I think that decision making would be silly.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
Also Zerglings have lost a lot of their power ;P
I hope you are joking.
What? Its a straight out the gate comparison with broodwar: The other tier one units gained upgrades and hp while the zergling got made smaller.
Smaller means, it gets hit by more aoe later in the game. Aoe is even more prevalent, and the crackling upgrade doesnt turn the lings into the powerhouses they used to be. Not saying they are bad, just that by comparison they are not as potent a threat.
They're going to suck pre hots. I can bet money on this. So I hope they don't get their hopes up and expect to dominate before that. The last thing I want are some of these pro's burning out cause they're losing to no-names on ladder pre-HOTS.
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
Well if you were used to muta micro and lurker-ling-dark swarm hopping, hydra storm dodging, and scourge micro, SC2 is going to be a pretty big shock to the system.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
Muta micro isn't even close to the same. Far less precise and much more sluggish.
They're going to suck pre hots. I can bet money on this. So I hope they don't get their hopes up and expect to dominate before that. The last thing I want are some of these pro's burning out cause they're losing to no-names on ladder pre-HOTS.
only because HoTS is so close that they wont ahve time to get used to all the minor details, theyll get to Code S level but probably not complete domination
I think worrying about imbalances at this point is quite silly. A player should play whatever race they enjoy the most/feel fits their style. If a Protoss player from BW prefers Terran in SC2 because they feel it's similar, then so be it. It bugs me, however, when multiple players are actually worrying about balance when deciding their race. In fact, Heart of the Swarm is coming very soon, so it would be silly to think whatever the game is like now will be what the game is like in the near future (as a Zerg player, I'm freaking excited for HotS, haha).
I'm hoping somebody comes along and plays better than Flash. He's awesome, but monopolies don't make for good competition The influx of BW players who have more (recent) experience as gamers is pretty cool (although it hurts a little to see it).
On May 11 2012 11:39 Gesamtkunstwerk wrote: Oh. I`ve been away from SC2 news for some time, but is it confirmed? Are the Korean SCBW gamers transferring to SC2?
ya KeSPA has said its guranteed now this PL theyre mixing in SC2 and in Oct full SC2
BTW shouldnt that have PL has started now? or is it starting next week?
On May 11 2012 11:39 Gesamtkunstwerk wrote: Oh. I`ve been away from SC2 news for some time, but is it confirmed? Are the Korean SCBW gamers transferring to SC2?
ya KeSPA has said its guranteed now this PL theyre mixing in SC2 and in Oct full SC2
BTW shouldnt that have PL has started now? or is it starting next week?
On May 11 2012 11:44 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Does their estimates include the fact that HoTS will add new units and sort of reset a lot of the strategies and tactics currently in play?
i doubt it since noones really talked about HoTS at all recently its been so under the radar i wouldnt be surprised if ovber 50% of the community doesnt know Blizz said beta is coming out a couple weeks after next MLG
did you try to look it up...next week.
chill dude, no i didnt try and look it up i only thought of it midway through answering the question so thought id tag it on
BTW i actually ahdnt seen those threads you linked so thanks for that :D
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
did you even play broodwar
what you say makes no sense to anyone who has played modern 2hat or 3hat muta zvt
...Theres no difference. I played/watched BW, lol. The games and mechanics are different, and it changes how the unit is played, but it's still the same unit. You really should go out of your way more to read into the context of a quote rather than butting in just to epeen.
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
did you even play broodwar
what you say makes no sense to anyone who has played modern 2hat or 3hat muta zvt
...Theres no difference. I played/watched BW, lol. The games and mechanics are different, and it changes how the unit is played, but it's still the same unit. You really should go out of your way more to read into the context of a quote rather than butting in just to epeen.
doesnt everyone go fast 3 base in like every match up? seems the games are very different to me
BTW i apolgize if i offend any BW fans, im not doing it on purpose and i have made some effort to learn about BW though i havent really made alot of effort to watch it
No need to get to know all of them. Not all of them gonna make it big anyway. Not bashing. That's just reality.
not all of them are going to make it BIG like NesTea and MVP big but majority are going to be known like Puma or Losira known
all of them are going to have a shot at blowing through an MLG open bracket or surprise owning a tournament
also i wouldnt be surprised to see all of them changing there race often, unlike early SC2 when every pro was like "omg i can be as good as anyone i cant switch races cause too long to relearn race needs to practice on one race and get known" there more in the mindset of "well its soo late in SC2 for me to dominate quickly so i can take my time in picking the right race"
On May 11 2012 11:29 Davis23 wrote: I don't know any of them beside of Flash...
get to know them then, look up liquipedia, TLPD, interviews.
No need to get to know all of them. Not all of them gonna make it big anyway. Not bashing. That's just reality.
Seems like a casual perspective to only care about superstars when it takes many, many more players than that to even have a competitive scene.
there are so many players thats is hard to get to know them all
i follow Esports a level above casual (though i wouldnt call myself hard core) but i barely know most european players, koreans who arent code s but i know alot of NA players and the really good foreigners who do well in tournaments and are active in them
like i barely know Dimaga but i know about white ra
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
did you even play broodwar
what you say makes no sense to anyone who has played modern 2hat or 3hat muta zvt
...Theres no difference. I played/watched BW, lol. The games and mechanics are different, and it changes how the unit is played, but it's still the same unit. You really should go out of your way more to read into the context of a quote rather than butting in just to epeen.
doesnt everyone go fast 3 base in like every match up? seems the games are very different to me
BTW i apolgize if i offend any BW fans, im not doing it on purpose and i have made some effort to learn about BW though i havent really made alot of effort to watch it
I wouldn't say that from my (admittedly) limited experience. There's a lot more emphasis on expanding in general, thats been known since SC2 was revealed, but I from what I've watched recently I wouldn't say "everybody" goes fast three bases (it also depends on your definition of "fast").
IIRC Zerg usually gets a quick third hatchery, but they don't always place it at the third depending on the matchup. Any BW fan here care to tell me if thats basically right or not?
On May 11 2012 08:43 LimitSEA wrote: Even the BW Zergs hate their own race in SC2. I laughed.
It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
did you even play broodwar
what you say makes no sense to anyone who has played modern 2hat or 3hat muta zvt
...Theres no difference. I played/watched BW, lol. The games and mechanics are different, and it changes how the unit is played, but it's still the same unit. You really should go out of your way more to read into the context of a quote rather than butting in just to epeen.
i don't really see how you can say "there's no difference" when you can micro mutas to continually pick off marines when terran moves out and then eventually overwhelm their mnm group with mutaling in broodwar. even if sc2 maps had as many cliffs or doodads as bw maps, the way mutas work in sc2 just don't let you micro them vs bio like in bw. you can't stack, marines clump much closer so many more fire at the same time when your mutas come close. there's no point in microing vs turrets in sc2, you don't take any less damage from turrets than you do if you microed your mutas, you don't really run away from marines any faster. you can't pick off HT like you do in zvp with mutas, because stalkers clump closely, have blink, and don't bug out, so a huge assload of mutas die every single time you try to dive in, so the best way to use mutas in zvp is to just get like 50 of them and base race.
basically mutas might look the same and have similar unit stats, but the way they are used is not even comparable between the two games. in sc2 you can't micro small amounts of mutas to make them better, you just get more of them.
On May 11 2012 09:41 Shiori wrote: [quote] It's probably more the fact that there's so much more emphasis on macro BS like Injecting/Creep Spread/etc rather than units with a high micro potential (e.g. Mutas).
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
did you even play broodwar
what you say makes no sense to anyone who has played modern 2hat or 3hat muta zvt
...Theres no difference. I played/watched BW, lol. The games and mechanics are different, and it changes how the unit is played, but it's still the same unit. You really should go out of your way more to read into the context of a quote rather than butting in just to epeen.
doesnt everyone go fast 3 base in like every match up? seems the games are very different to me
BTW i apolgize if i offend any BW fans, im not doing it on purpose and i have made some effort to learn about BW though i havent really made alot of effort to watch it
I wouldn't say that from my (admittedly) limited experience. There's a lot more emphasis on expanding in general, thats been known since SC2 was revealed, but I from what I've watched recently I wouldn't say "everybody" goes fast three bases (it also depends on your definition of "fast").
IIRC Zerg usually gets a quick third hatchery, but they don't always place it at the third depending on the matchup. Any BW fan here care to tell me if thats basically right or not?
zvz doesn't go past 1 base, sometimes 2 if both people 12 hatch.
zvt terran sticks to 2 base mnm for pretty much the whole game, zerg takes third when his lair tech units are out and fourth gas when he has defilers.
zvp protoss forge fes, zerg double expands, toss will get a third when he can defend it vs fast mutas or mass hydras (around 10-11 minutes), zerg expands again when he feels safe
tvp toss generally tries to take a quick third, terran tries to punish with 2 base timing, but i don't really understand any non Z matchups
pvp generally one base or someone defending their fast expo vs fast reaver or dt
I'm going to laugh when every BW player ends up with P and T. Zerg's painful right now, man. Maybe the viper will change that, but it makes me sad that a lot of zergs are struggling and calm is switching races (I'm going to be heartbroken if Jaedong switches too)
" Air Force Coach Song Dong Kyun states: First of all, FBH changed to Protoss. His skill is really good and he is very high level. You may expect much from him. Also, Great and Chavi changed their races in SCII "
LOL ... i played vs FBH last week 2 times and hi's not that "VERY HIGH LEVEL" to be honest xD
What units in BW had high micro potential that SC2 doesn't have?
...seriously?
every single spellcaster, mutas, scourge, shuttle/reaver, wraiths, vultures, zealots, goons, lings
....
Context is key. Zerg. So basically nothing, maybe other than scourge. Unless you want to go off on a tangent about control groups. But that doesn't make the unit inherently harder. Waiting for the day someone walks into SC2 with hundreds of APM worth of control to be able to split lings/roaches into perfect spreads to mitigate tank/storms. So in reality, waiting for Jaedong.
Mutas?
They're pretty much the same. Only thing that has changed is the units/metagame around them and the interface.
did you even play broodwar
what you say makes no sense to anyone who has played modern 2hat or 3hat muta zvt
...Theres no difference. I played/watched BW, lol. The games and mechanics are different, and it changes how the unit is played, but it's still the same unit. You really should go out of your way more to read into the context of a quote rather than butting in just to epeen.
doesnt everyone go fast 3 base in like every match up? seems the games are very different to me
BTW i apolgize if i offend any BW fans, im not doing it on purpose and i have made some effort to learn about BW though i havent really made alot of effort to watch it
I wouldn't say that from my (admittedly) limited experience. There's a lot more emphasis on expanding in general, thats been known since SC2 was revealed, but I from what I've watched recently I wouldn't say "everybody" goes fast three bases (it also depends on your definition of "fast").
IIRC Zerg usually gets a quick third hatchery, but they don't always place it at the third depending on the matchup. Any BW fan here care to tell me if thats basically right or not?
zvz doesn't go past 1 base, sometimes 2 if both people 12 hatch.
zvt terran sticks to 2 base mnm for pretty much the whole game, zerg takes third when his lair tech units are out and fourth gas when he has defilers.
zvp protoss forge fes, zerg double expands, toss will get a third when he can defend it vs fast mutas or mass hydras (around 10-11 minutes), zerg expands again when he feels safe
tvp toss generally tries to take a quick third, terran tries to punish with 2 base timing, but i don't really understand any non Z matchups
pvp generally one base or someone defending their fast expo vs fast reaver or dt
On May 11 2012 11:29 Zeke50100 wrote: I think worrying about imbalances at this point is quite silly. A player should play whatever race they enjoy the most/feel fits their style. If a Protoss player from BW prefers Terran in SC2 because they feel it's similar, then so be it. It bugs me, however, when multiple players are actually worrying about balance when deciding their race. In fact, Heart of the Swarm is coming very soon, so it would be silly to think whatever the game is like now will be what the game is like in the near future (as a Zerg player, I'm freaking excited for HotS, haha).
I'm hoping somebody comes along and plays better than Flash. He's awesome, but monopolies don't make for good competition The influx of BW players who have more (recent) experience as gamers is pretty cool (although it hurts a little to see it).
HotS is coming very soon? I think you exaggerate alot. The beta may come soon, but they won't have time to play that anyway because they still have to practice and play WoL (and BW) for Proleague from May to September and maybe upcoming tournaments abroad. HotS won't be relevant until the very end of this year or 2013.
zvz doesn't go past 1 base, sometimes 2 if both people 12 hatch.
zvt terran sticks to 2 base mnm for pretty much the whole game, zerg takes third when his lair tech units are out and fourth gas when he has defilers.
zvp protoss forge fes, zerg double expands, toss will get a third when he can defend it vs fast mutas or mass hydras (around 10-11 minutes), zerg expands again when he feels safe
tvp toss generally tries to take a quick third, terran tries to punish with 2 base timing, but i don't really understand any non Z matchups
pvp generally one base or someone defending their fast expo vs fast reaver or dt
tvt fuck if i know but it's not fast 3 bases
if this is accurate BW then like everything ive ever heard about BW is false
Wow 2-3 years flash said. Must be a shock to find they will basically be giving up playing bw by fall.
2-3 years to get back to the same level of skillin SC2 they have in BW, theyll be competitive in SC2 within a year
On May 11 2012 12:30 -IeZaeL- wrote: " Air Force Coach Song Dong Kyun states: First of all, FBH changed to Protoss. His skill is really good and he is very high level. You may expect much from him. Also, Great and Chavi changed their races in SCII "
LOL ... i played vs FBH last week 2 times and hi's not that "VERY HIGH LEVEL" to be honest xD
I hope you don't actually think that the FBH on the Korean ladder is the actual FBH. It's just the smurf of somebody else, just like MarineKing was using "BoxeR" before he was famous.
On May 11 2012 12:30 -IeZaeL- wrote: " Air Force Coach Song Dong Kyun states: First of all, FBH changed to Protoss. His skill is really good and he is very high level. You may expect much from him. Also, Great and Chavi changed their races in SCII "
LOL ... i played vs FBH last week 2 times and hi's not that "VERY HIGH LEVEL" to be honest xD
I hope you don't actually think that the FBH on the Korean ladder is the actual FBH. It's just the smurf of somebody else, just like MarineKing was using "BoxeR" before he was famous.
hasnt the real FBH said on twitter tis actually him?
On May 11 2012 11:29 Zeke50100 wrote: I think worrying about imbalances at this point is quite silly. A player should play whatever race they enjoy the most/feel fits their style. If a Protoss player from BW prefers Terran in SC2 because they feel it's similar, then so be it. It bugs me, however, when multiple players are actually worrying about balance when deciding their race. In fact, Heart of the Swarm is coming very soon, so it would be silly to think whatever the game is like now will be what the game is like in the near future (as a Zerg player, I'm freaking excited for HotS, haha).
I'm hoping somebody comes along and plays better than Flash. He's awesome, but monopolies don't make for good competition The influx of BW players who have more (recent) experience as gamers is pretty cool (although it hurts a little to see it).
HotS is coming very soon? I think you exaggerate alot. The beta may come soon, but they won't have time to play that anyway because they still have to practice and play WoL (and BW) for Proleague from May to September and maybe upcoming tournaments abroad. HotS won't be relevant until the very end of this year or 2013.
anaheim is in about a month, then Beta probably a month after that, then probably at least 4 months of beta so HoTS probably just before 2013 at the earliest
On May 11 2012 12:30 -IeZaeL- wrote: " Air Force Coach Song Dong Kyun states: First of all, FBH changed to Protoss. His skill is really good and he is very high level. You may expect much from him. Also, Great and Chavi changed their races in SCII "
LOL ... i played vs FBH last week 2 times and hi's not that "VERY HIGH LEVEL" to be honest xD
I hope you don't actually think that the FBH on the Korean ladder is the actual FBH. It's just the smurf of somebody else, just like MarineKing was using "BoxeR" before he was famous.
hasnt the real FBH said on twitter tis actually him?
Quite possibly, I don't know. But, It isn't likely for a progamer to use their alias on ladder. In Brood War, they pretty much had a new name in every single replay that was identified as them. I would think they would use some random ID for practice until they reached a professional level that way people couldn't have "bragging rights". But, if FBH confirmed it himself then I think that's extremely bad for him.
Particularly because of comments like this:
On May 11 2012 12:30 -IeZaeL- wrote: " Air Force Coach Song Dong Kyun states: First of all, FBH changed to Protoss. His skill is really good and he is very high level. You may expect much from him. Also, Great and Chavi changed their races in SCII "
LOL ... i played vs FBH last week 2 times and hi's not that "VERY HIGH LEVEL" to be honest xD
If HotS get released in september-december this year, then imo these bw players picked the worst time to switch.
Its like it should only take a month or 2 to get used to sc2 mechics in preparation for HotS, but 4-6 months is most likely not enough time for anyone of them to get better results than mby low code A in WoL.
Quite possibly, I don't know. But, It isn't likely for a progamer to use their alias on ladder. In Brood War, they pretty much had a new name in every single replay that was identified as them. I would think they would use some random ID for practice until they reached a professional level that way people couldn't have "bragging rights". But, if FBH confirmed it himself then I think that's extremely bad for him.
they cant name change (pretty mcuh) at all in SC2 unless they get new accounts so they are more likely to use there real ID
If HotS get released in september-december this year, then imo these bw players picked the worst time to switch.
Its like it should only take a month or 2 to get used to sc2 mechics in preparation for HotS, but 4-6 months is most likely not enough time for anyone of them to get better results than mby low code A in WoL.
id say its the best time if they can master the controls and get used to the actual mechanics (controlling large army, all the macro and micro and spells and such) right before HoTS comes out then they dont ahve to be learning mechanics and learning hoTS at the same time and its a true level playing field
zvz doesn't go past 1 base, sometimes 2 if both people 12 hatch.
zvt terran sticks to 2 base mnm for pretty much the whole game, zerg takes third when his lair tech units are out and fourth gas when he has defilers.
zvp protoss forge fes, zerg double expands, toss will get a third when he can defend it vs fast mutas or mass hydras (around 10-11 minutes), zerg expands again when he feels safe
tvp toss generally tries to take a quick third, terran tries to punish with 2 base timing, but i don't really understand any non Z matchups
pvp generally one base or someone defending their fast expo vs fast reaver or dt
tvt fuck if i know but it's not fast 3 bases
if this is accurate BW then like everything ive ever heard about BW is false
Wow 2-3 years flash said. Must be a shock to find they will basically be giving up playing bw by fall.
2-3 years to get back to the same level of skillin SC2 they have in BW, theyll be competitive in SC2 within a year
There is a lot of mis-information about BW.
Also TvP is often 1 Rax FE, Siege Expand, FD (fake double), or 5 marine fact (no addon) expand, then depending on what you scout throw down an ebay, or another fact, and go light pressure off 2 fact with a few vultures (while tanks are defending nat) while getting a 3rd. You sometimes see 3rds off 1 fact but its very greedy, above 2 fact often results in a timing attack unless Terran has scanned Protoss with a lot of gateways.
3 base 2-1 timing attack to get map-control for 4th is usually the main goal. Sometimes you will see Flash get a 3rd, and a proxy 4th at the same time, or slam down 2 more facts and go some crazy timing, that's why hes so deadly. He's brilliant at cheese and late-late game, which gives him huge leverage in terms of mind-games. He's the Tom Dwan of BW.
On May 11 2012 13:06 NotSorry wrote: Now if only we could get any of them to stream Sc2 or BW
There are BW re-streams of Hiya or Savior up on the side-panel sometimes. Look up ShowMeTheMSL on youtube.
zvz doesn't go past 1 base, sometimes 2 if both people 12 hatch.
zvt terran sticks to 2 base mnm for pretty much the whole game, zerg takes third when his lair tech units are out and fourth gas when he has defilers.
zvp protoss forge fes, zerg double expands, toss will get a third when he can defend it vs fast mutas or mass hydras (around 10-11 minutes), zerg expands again when he feels safe
tvp toss generally tries to take a quick third, terran tries to punish with 2 base timing, but i don't really understand any non Z matchups
pvp generally one base or someone defending their fast expo vs fast reaver or dt
tvt fuck if i know but it's not fast 3 bases
if this is accurate BW then like everything ive ever heard about BW is false
Wow 2-3 years flash said. Must be a shock to find they will basically be giving up playing bw by fall.
2-3 years to get back to the same level of skillin SC2 they have in BW, theyll be competitive in SC2 within a year
There is a lot of mis-information about BW.
Also TvP is often 1 Rax FE, Siege Expand, FD (fake double), or 5 marine fact (no addon) expand, then depending on what you scout throw down an ebay, or another fact, and go light pressure off 2 fact with a few vultures (while tanks are defending nat) while getting a 3rd. You sometimes see 3rds off 1 fact but its very greedy, above 2 fact often results in a timing attack unless Terran has scanned Protoss with a lot of gateways.
3 base 2-1 timing attack to get map-control for 4th is usually the main goal. Sometimes you will see Flash get a 3rd, and a proxy 4th at the same time, or slam down 2 more facts and go some crazy timing, that's why hes so deadly. He's brilliant at cheese and late-late game, which gives him huge leverage in terms of mind-games. He's the Tom Dwan of BW.
On May 11 2012 13:06 NotSorry wrote: Now if only we could get any of them to stream Sc2 or BW
There are BW re-streams of Hiya or Savior up on the side-panel sometimes. Look up ShowMeTheMSL on youtube.
i thought things like 5fac timings were still popular vs fast third... to be fair i zone out pretty hard if it's a non-Z matchup in proleague and the last few tvps i remember seeing in osl weren't really standard lol
zvz doesn't go past 1 base, sometimes 2 if both people 12 hatch.
zvt terran sticks to 2 base mnm for pretty much the whole game, zerg takes third when his lair tech units are out and fourth gas when he has defilers.
zvp protoss forge fes, zerg double expands, toss will get a third when he can defend it vs fast mutas or mass hydras (around 10-11 minutes), zerg expands again when he feels safe
tvp toss generally tries to take a quick third, terran tries to punish with 2 base timing, but i don't really understand any non Z matchups
pvp generally one base or someone defending their fast expo vs fast reaver or dt
tvt fuck if i know but it's not fast 3 bases
if this is accurate BW then like everything ive ever heard about BW is false
Wow 2-3 years flash said. Must be a shock to find they will basically be giving up playing bw by fall.
2-3 years to get back to the same level of skillin SC2 they have in BW, theyll be competitive in SC2 within a year
There is a lot of mis-information about BW.
Also TvP is often 1 Rax FE, Siege Expand, FD (fake double), or 5 marine fact (no addon) expand, then depending on what you scout throw down an ebay, or another fact, and go light pressure off 2 fact with a few vultures (while tanks are defending nat) while getting a 3rd. You sometimes see 3rds off 1 fact but its very greedy, above 2 fact often results in a timing attack unless Terran has scanned Protoss with a lot of gateways.
3 base 2-1 timing attack to get map-control for 4th is usually the main goal. Sometimes you will see Flash get a 3rd, and a proxy 4th at the same time, or slam down 2 more facts and go some crazy timing, that's why hes so deadly. He's brilliant at cheese and late-late game, which gives him huge leverage in terms of mind-games. He's the Tom Dwan of BW.
On May 11 2012 13:06 NotSorry wrote: Now if only we could get any of them to stream Sc2 or BW
There are BW re-streams of Hiya or Savior up on the side-panel sometimes. Look up ShowMeTheMSL on youtube.
i thought things like 5fac timings were still popular vs fast third... to be fair i zone out pretty hard if it's a non-Z matchup in proleague and the last few tvps i remember seeing in osl weren't really standard lol
That's because in pretty much every match-up except ZvZ and ZvT (not TvZ because TvZ was changing but Z's side was not) the metagame was still very much evolving. That evolution of gameplay has now been cut off forever.
zvz doesn't go past 1 base, sometimes 2 if both people 12 hatch.
zvt terran sticks to 2 base mnm for pretty much the whole game, zerg takes third when his lair tech units are out and fourth gas when he has defilers.
zvp protoss forge fes, zerg double expands, toss will get a third when he can defend it vs fast mutas or mass hydras (around 10-11 minutes), zerg expands again when he feels safe
tvp toss generally tries to take a quick third, terran tries to punish with 2 base timing, but i don't really understand any non Z matchups
pvp generally one base or someone defending their fast expo vs fast reaver or dt
tvt fuck if i know but it's not fast 3 bases
if this is accurate BW then like everything ive ever heard about BW is false
Wow 2-3 years flash said. Must be a shock to find they will basically be giving up playing bw by fall.
2-3 years to get back to the same level of skillin SC2 they have in BW, theyll be competitive in SC2 within a year
There is a lot of mis-information about BW.
Also TvP is often 1 Rax FE, Siege Expand, FD (fake double), or 5 marine fact (no addon) expand, then depending on what you scout throw down an ebay, or another fact, and go light pressure off 2 fact with a few vultures (while tanks are defending nat) while getting a 3rd. You sometimes see 3rds off 1 fact but its very greedy, above 2 fact often results in a timing attack unless Terran has scanned Protoss with a lot of gateways.
3 base 2-1 timing attack to get map-control for 4th is usually the main goal. Sometimes you will see Flash get a 3rd, and a proxy 4th at the same time, or slam down 2 more facts and go some crazy timing, that's why hes so deadly. He's brilliant at cheese and late-late game, which gives him huge leverage in terms of mind-games. He's the Tom Dwan of BW.
On May 11 2012 13:06 NotSorry wrote: Now if only we could get any of them to stream Sc2 or BW
There are BW re-streams of Hiya or Savior up on the side-panel sometimes. Look up ShowMeTheMSL on youtube.
i thought things like 5fac timings were still popular vs fast third... to be fair i zone out pretty hard if it's a non-Z matchup in proleague and the last few tvps i remember seeing in osl weren't really standard lol
In simplistic terms
Flash build > Protoss delayed 3rd Base > 4 Fact > 2/3 Base Tech > Oov Build/Fact CC Fact > Rapid Expanding Protoss > Flash Build
With the advances in PvT throughout 2007 and 2008 the only reliable playstyle came to be that of Flash, who singlehandedly upheld the Terran race with his fast upgrade, mass expand builds. However, by the beginning of 2009, weaknesses were shown in this style, most notably by Bisu who combined early timing attacks with quick third and fourth bases to retain the economical advantage. In order for Terrans to retain their edge in the matchup there needed to be a viable alternative to this that wasn't a timing push, for Protoss players had grown extremely adept at blocking those.
I presume that at the time the Flash build must have been popular so Protoss were going 2 base arbiter double expands to compensate, resulting in Terran going 4-5 fact until Protoss figured how to properly time their expansions to defend against that. Or there were a lot of 12 nexus's in which the common response is bunker rush into 4 fact.
Team 8 Coach Han Sang-Yong states: No players in our team changed races. However, we are still keeping it into a consideration because the Zerg players are having a lot of trouble. ***** This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII.
Well. That wasnt something I was expecting from the mechanically superior BW zergs. I guess their making hydras ^^
Team 8 Coach Han Sang-Yong states: No players in our team changed races. However, we are still keeping it into a consideration because the Zerg players are having a lot of trouble. ***** This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII.
Well. That wasnt something I was expecting from the mechanically superior BW zergs. I guess their making hydras ^^
I think it's just that the race doesn't feel very good. I don't know how to really put it into words, but it just doesn't feel like you can really leverage your multitask or superior speed or cool builds because the most profitable way to play is quickly invest in a lategame army and a lot of bases; you kind of just go for BL/infestor and crawl forward. It really is a totally different race in SC2, and I think a lot of the players who enjoyed playing zerg in BW aren't going to enjoy it as much in SC2.
Team 8 Coach Han Sang-Yong states: No players in our team changed races. However, we are still keeping it into a consideration because the Zerg players are having a lot of trouble. ***** This has been stated from many players and coaches all over the BW teams that BW zerg players are having a hard time in SCII.
Well. That wasnt something I was expecting from the mechanically superior BW zergs. I guess their making hydras ^^
I think it's just that the race doesn't feel very good. I don't know how to really put it into words, but it just doesn't feel like you can really leverage your multitask or superior speed or cool builds because the most profitable way to play is quickly invest in a lategame army and a lot of bases; you kind of just go for BL/infestor and crawl forward. It really is a totally different race in SC2, and I think a lot of the players who enjoyed playing zerg in BW aren't going to enjoy it as much in SC2.
SKT1 coach Park Yong Woon states: Our team has tried playing different races in SCII but since it was very hard to adapt I have asked to keep the original races. All of SKT1 players chose to play the same race as in BW.
Whew! I was afraid Bisu was gonna switch to Terran there for a sec.
Can't wait to see what these guys can do after 6 months of hardcore practice.
On May 11 2012 03:33 Nagano wrote: Expect HOTS to completely change Zerg's strength, with what vipers and swarm hosts and all the upgrades. These guys should just stick with what they're comfortable with rather than what they perceive now to be imbalance.
Blizzard has already said Zerg won't be made any more "powerful" than the other races in HotS.
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
Well if you were used to muta micro and lurker-ling-dark swarm hopping, hydra storm dodging, and scourge micro, SC2 is going to be a pretty big shock to the system.
Well said. The amount of BW ignorance here is impressive. Zerg in BW looks similar to SC2, but in fact the playstyle and feeling is nothing alike.
Flash so modest. I'm starting to love this guy (Pile on the BW Noob hate here). Realistically, 3 months to catch up on level, a year to dominate, and to consider himself a master 2-3 years.
On May 11 2012 03:33 Nagano wrote: Expect HOTS to completely change Zerg's strength, with what vipers and swarm hosts and all the upgrades. These guys should just stick with what they're comfortable with rather than what they perceive now to be imbalance.
Blizzard has already said Zerg won't be made any more "powerful" than the other races in HotS.
They probably also intended for Terran to not be too powerful at the release of WoL.
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
Well if you were used to muta micro and lurker-ling-dark swarm hopping, hydra storm dodging, and scourge micro, SC2 is going to be a pretty big shock to the system.
Well said. The amount of BW ignorance here is impressive. Zerg in BW looks similar to SC2, but in fact the playstyle and feeling is nothing alike.
To be honest, many times SC2 Zerg looks like SK Terran. Constantly mobile low tier units supported by some sci vessel/infestors depending on tempo and mass engagements to break down the opponents. They even rush for Tanks/Broods specifically to break defensive turtling.
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
Well if you were used to muta micro and lurker-ling-dark swarm hopping, hydra storm dodging, and scourge micro, SC2 is going to be a pretty big shock to the system.
Well said. The amount of BW ignorance here is impressive. Zerg in BW looks similar to SC2, but in fact the playstyle and feeling is nothing alike.
To be honest, many times SC2 Zerg looks like SK Terran. Constantly mobile low tier units supported by some sci vessel/infestors depending on tempo and mass engagements to break down the opponents. They even rush for Tanks/Broods specifically to break defensive turtling.
What you described is not SK Terran at all. SK Terran was a mass of MM with a gigantic vessel mass while going double-ebay for really fast bio upgrades while simultaneously utilizing huge amounts of dropship play to harass expos. There are no tanks at all in SK Terran style. Not to mention sc2 zerg is a slow-moving ball that often goes for tech rushes to Infestor/BL which is an incredibly slow-moving army (almost akin to pure T mech in BW). sc2 Zerg is nothing like BW zerg or SK Terran (which is the T style most associated with that "swarm" feel).
On May 11 2012 03:34 OpTicalRH wrote: Yeah, many all of existing BW players are complaining about Zerg + Show Spoiler +
imbalances
, poor Jaedong :/
Well if you were used to muta micro and lurker-ling-dark swarm hopping, hydra storm dodging, and scourge micro, SC2 is going to be a pretty big shock to the system.
Well said. The amount of BW ignorance here is impressive. Zerg in BW looks similar to SC2, but in fact the playstyle and feeling is nothing alike.
To be honest, many times SC2 Zerg looks like SK Terran. Constantly mobile low tier units supported by some sci vessel/infestors depending on tempo and mass engagements to break down the opponents. They even rush for Tanks/Broods specifically to break defensive turtling.
What you described is not SK Terran at all. SK Terran was a mass of MM with a gigantic vessel mass while going double-ebay for really fast bio upgrades while simultaneously utilizing huge amounts of dropship play to harass expos. There are no tanks at all in SK Terran style. Not to mention sc2 zerg is a slow-moving ball that often goes for tech rushes to Infestor/BL which is an incredibly slow-moving army (almost akin to pure T mech in BW). sc2 Zerg is nothing like BW zerg or SK Terran (which is the T style most associated with that "swarm" feel).
To be fair, the more mobile Infestor/Ultralisk "Stephano style" composition has been gaining popularity nowadays as an alternative to the slower Infestor/Broodlord composition.
But I do agree that it's flawed to compare SK Terran to SC2 Zerg.
I really hope the Zergs don't all switch to T and P just because they're having a hard time. It's HELLA hard to switch from the speedling harass plus minimal amount of drones to constantly macro an army mentality of Zergs in BW versus the slower, passive SC2 drone hard while surviving on as little as possible to sudden explosion but I hope they stick it out so that SC2 Zergs have their own set of idols. Let's go Jaedong!
edit: and suck-ass lair tech
...and lack of defilers
...and lack of area control via lurkers
on second thought, maybe they should wait it out for HotS
On May 11 2012 16:03 ryx wrote: I really hope the Zergs don't all switch to T and P just because they're having a hard time. It's HELLA hard to switch from the speedling harass plus minimal amount of drones to constantly macro an army mentality of Zergs in BW versus the slower, passive SC2 drone hard while surviving on as little as possible to sudden explosion but I hope they stick it out so that SC2 Zergs have their own set of idols. Let's go Jaedong!
edit: and suck-ass lair tech
...and lack of defilers
...and lack of area control via lurkers
on second thought, maybe they should wait it out for HotS
id agree that they should all wait for HoTS because that would be a fresh start for everyone considering new strats/builds and all, but by the looks of it we wont be seeing HoTS go live for atleast another year....
The BW players have an interesting perspective on balance. I think it will be interesting to see how many end up playing which race when all is said and done. Glad Flash is playing Terran, but it will be disappointing to see how many players, if any, pick and stick with zerg at this point. As a large organisation, Kespa is in an interesting position to maybe push for balance changes from a fresh perspective. I know this isnt about balance specifically, but I find that aspect of players picking races interesting.
On May 11 2012 13:46 NET wrote: Yes FBH is Protoss! So much win!
Bisu stuck with the right race. The Dark Templar master remains.
Inca might fight him for that title.
The key difference is that when Bisu makes DTs in PvZ he wins while InCa does the same retarded DT-rush 4 times in a row and gives us a shitty GSL finals ^_^
Hope people like IdrA and NesTea are kicking themselves after hearing this xD Silly Zergs xD Can't wait to see a good solid Protoss BW player though, gives me nerd chills thinking of how good they can make Protoss look. But yeah 6 months into Flash's SC2 career he will win his first MLG title...heard it hear first ^_^
BW pros have great mechanics, which allows them to be competitive once mid/lategame hits even without having alot of game knowledge. It is easier for Protoss and Terran to play a safe early game than it is for Zerg, cause of the drone timings in relation to timing pushes. I think, once they learn the basic build orders and timings of the races, and how to make precise calls based on their scouting, the BW Zergs will be just fine.
Look like they will have to quit BW completely if they want to be competitive at SC2. The unimpressed Flash thread sure gives me some wrong ideas about how fast they will start to dominate.
On May 11 2012 22:01 Garnet wrote: Look like they will have to quit BW completely if they want to be competitive at SC2. The unimpressed Flash thread sure gives me some wrong ideas about how fast they will start to dominate.
ehmm.. it is 100% confirimed that from september this year, there will only be sc2 for the kespa teams. ofc they will quit bw
They're going to suck pre hots. I can bet money on this. So I hope they don't get their hopes up and expect to dominate before that. The last thing I want are some of these pro's burning out cause they're losing to no-names on ladder pre-HOTS.
only because HoTS is so close that they wont ahve time to get used to all the minor details, theyll get to Code S level but probably not complete domination
I'm not going to argue the prediction itself, but the pre-comment; when did he ever nail any prediction? I only remember bad ones. Like saying DRG was nothing but a cheeser and him being top KR GM was equivalent to Piqliq topping NA. Then *BOOM*, DRG breakout.
On May 11 2012 11:29 Davis23 wrote: I don't know any of them beside of Flash...
get to know them then, look up liquipedia, TLPD, interviews.
No need to get to know all of them. Not all of them gonna make it big anyway. Not bashing. That's just reality.
you know in proleague people actually root for teams not just 1 player. Crazy right?
either way you are going to get to know them.
Sure, if they play nothing but proleague like SC1. But with the way SC2 goes, individual tournaments are promoted, it's just a matter of time that players are gonna spend their time fighting for their own, and spectators are gonna cheer for that one guy. That's just normal logic.
I think its a sad thing that they already made such big decisions regarding which race they will play. I mean, protoss seems to be pretty powerful at the moment and zergs seem to have some difficulties, but that could all change soon with new balance patches/ HOTS. The BW players are used to a stable enviroment, since there haven't been any balance changes in years in bw, so they might see the state of the three races as reasonably fixed too. Well let's hope that we will get a reasonable split between terran,protoss and zerg from the bw players, and that they don't feel restrained to pick another race if they picked their initial race because of balance reasons instead of the playstyle they want to play
EPT
Flash may sound modest, but at the same time I feel he knows what he's talking about - ripping GSL apart will take more than 3 months of training.
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