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On April 28 2012 02:55 Xapti wrote:
I don't understand the multiple tier thing.
If people have different MMRs in different tiers, why don't they change divisions within the same league?
Do these separate tiers not have separate divisions as well?
Also seems strange that diamond has so many tiers when gold and platinum only have 2-3.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332391
I think your answer can be found here.
But basically, as I understand it.
There will be many many divisions in any given tier (except GM, which there is basically one division and tier, but its a special case)
You won't change division until you're in a new league(or i suppose if your league is disbanded and redisbursed for some reason)
I believe everyone in a specific division would be in the same tier and have the same offset, but I was wondering that myself, if people in the same division could have a different offset, but i doubt it and i don't think this can be true.
To be clear people in the same tier have different MMRs too, it's not just people in different tiers. But clearly you can play someone in a tier above or below you(or the same tier), and now possibly multiple tiers with expanded matchmaking, so MMR doesn't have to be the same to get matched. It would be redundant for the system to place you in a division with a different offset because all it would do is adjust what points are SHOWN, for all practical purposes your ranking would be the same. For example if you have 50 points in a division that's worth +100 points more than the division i'm in, and I have 150 points. We actually have the same # of points, it's irrelevant which one is shown.
I don't know why plat has less tiers that is actually a good question, I wonder that myself but might be better for the other thread that I linked.
I'm getting into pure speculation here, but this may be the reason why...
Masters=Top 2% of the player population by skill. and then GM is the top 200 out of the top 2%. They have separate bonus pool accrual I feel like they are almost considered 'separate' from the rest of the ladder, even though in reality they are still on the same overall scale.
So the rest of the ladder is segmented. The top and the bottom would have the most range of skill so they need the most segments, bronze and diamond have 7 tiers, while silver and plat have 3, and gold has 2, with the middle of gold (between the 2) being the middle of the ladder..
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That's pretty slick, must've taken a lot of work to figure it out.
I'll try bookmarking this and use it every now and then to see if my mmr is changing in the manner you suggest.
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United States12237 Posts
On April 28 2012 06:49 thurst0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:55 Xapti wrote:
I don't understand the multiple tier thing.
If people have different MMRs in different tiers, why don't they change divisions within the same league?
Do these separate tiers not have separate divisions as well?
Also seems strange that diamond has so many tiers when gold and platinum only have 2-3. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332391I think your answer can be found here. But basically, as I understand it. There will be many many divisions in any given tier (except GM, which there is basically one division and tier, but its a special case) You won't change division until you're in a new league(or i suppose if your league is disbanded and redisbursed for some reason) I believe everyone in a specific division would be in the same tier and have the same offset, but I was wondering that myself, if people in the same division could have a different offset, but i doubt it and i don't think this can be true. To be clear people in the same tier have different MMRs too, it's not just people in different tiers. But clearly you can play someone in a tier above or below you(or the same tier), and now possibly multiple tiers with expanded matchmaking, so MMR doesn't have to be the same to get matched. It would be redundant for the system to place you in a division with a different offset because all it would do is adjust what points are SHOWN, for all practical purposes your ranking would be the same. For example if you have 50 points in a division that's worth +100 points more than the division i'm in, and I have 150 points. We actually have the same # of points, it's irrelevant which one is shown. I don't know why plat has less tiers that is actually a good question, I wonder that myself but might be better for the other thread that I linked. I'm getting into pure speculation here, but this may be the reason why... Masters=Top 2% of the player population by skill. and then GM is the top 200 out of the top 2%. They have separate bonus pool accrual I feel like they are almost considered 'separate' from the rest of the ladder, even though in reality they are still on the same overall scale. So the rest of the ladder is segmented. The top and the bottom would have the most range of skill so they need the most segments, bronze and diamond have 7 tiers, while silver and plat have 3, and gold has 2, with the middle of gold (between the 2) being the middle of the ladder..
Every division tier has a unique offset, but there can be many many divisions in each tier (new ones are created on demand). The entire idea behind division tiers is that they create the illusion of being part of a larger cohesive league. That is, weaker players are placed in lower tiers, but they get a larger offset which makes it easier to get points, even though their points are going to be naturally low. Conversely, stronger players are placed in higher tiers, but their offset is reduced because they'll naturally get more points. Overall, this normalizes the points across the entire league and makes things feel a bit more competitive. Therefore, everyone in your division has the same offset as you, and you can determine the skill of others in your division by their points.
You can't get promoted from one tier to another within the same league. If you could, you'd probably bounce along +/- 1 tier too frequently for your current division assignment to hold much meaning (and don't forget that with each league change you face a point reset).
Plat, Gold, and Silver have fewer tiers because they cover a smaller skill range. However, because they are close to the center of the skill distribution curve, there is a higher density of players which makes up for this. This is what enables each league to carry around 20% of the population at any given time:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5w92j.jpg)
If Plat had 7 tiers like Diamond and Bronze, it would cover the same skill range and would carry probably 40 to 50% of the population.
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Amazing post, thanks so much!
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Great job! Thanks 
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This math hurts my head, when is the tool coming out?
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On April 28 2012 18:09 BigBirdy90 wrote:
This math hurts my head, when is the tool coming out?
The script I was referring to was published. You can find a photo of the included MMR calculator in that thread. Not sure if I should add it to OP or not.
On April 27 2012 23:20 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:29 Peleus wrote:If I'm doing this right, I believe I've run into a problem. Image for information - http://imgur.com/6m3ivSo I was vs'ing other masters opponents and calculating MMR, for example my last one. Bonus pool on SEA at the moment is 224. Opponents Points: 283 Opponents Change: -6 Bonus Pool: 0 Adjusted Points = 283 ("Points") + 0 ("Bonus Pool") - 224 ("Server Bonus Pool") + 6 ("Without Change") = 65 This gives an F of 18 on the table, meaning we add 176 at the lower bound, 208 at the top. We'll say 192 for a median giving an MMR of 192 + 65 = 257 for my MMR. Edit: There was a mistake in my spreadsheet giving the incorrect F value (should be 14), the major change in MMR still resides however. Next game I play against a GM with these stats Opponents Points: 140 Opponents Change: 14 Bonus Pool: 103 Adjusted Points = 140 ("Points") + 430 ("GM -> M Conversion") + 103 ("Bonus Pool") - 224 ("Server Bonus Pool") - 14 ("Without Change") = 435 Given a change of 14 we have a lookup value of 48 - 80, again we'll take 64 as a median, meaning that my MMR is now 435 + 64 = 499, effectively doubling my MMR after a game. Doesn't seem feasible, or is MMR really that volatile? Edit: Thinking it through, this should only be a reflection of MMR as from the previous game. That means it's actually the master game previous to that which doubled my MMR? There is a huge chance that the GM offset for SEA is different than Am/Eu/FEA regions, if you played S3 at GM level you'd remember the problems that a huge offset showed in your region, I am pretty sure they lowered it to avoid half that league to have negative points... So, that's an additional thing to take note.
There's definitely something strange in those stats. Your MMR probably did not jump ~240 points from winning one game (though in theory the guy with the 65 adj points may have crazy high MMR with low points due to low game count, but still...). It may be what Xapti suggested and that SEA GM uses different modifier. I think SEA GM modifier would have to be closer to 200 or 250 than 430 to explain your results. Whether or not that is the case I have no idea.
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Plat. Matched with a #2 Master.
I lost 1pt... anything I can draw from this?
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On April 29 2012 07:05 BabyCrusher wrote:
Plat. Matched with a #2 Master.
I lost 1pt... anything I can draw from this?
More importantly, how many adjusted points did he had and how many points did he win?
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United States12237 Posts
A funny aside for this thread was this guy on the Bnet forums. He's a Grandmaster player who was matched with a portrait farming Bronze. These players were matched together even while their MMRs were diverging (the GM player recently won a bunch, the Bronze player was still losing a ton). Possible overflow/underflow problem related to the new matchmaking system.
The GM player won 1(+1 bonus) for the match, and the Bronze player lost 0 (he did have more than 0 at the start of the game). Weird how it seems that 1 is the minimum amount you can win from a game now, when it used to be 0 at launch.
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I thought it was established that Blizzard placed a hard limit on the minimum amount of points gained for a win at 1 in order to 'fix' the 'bug' where players with low MMR received 0 points for a win. It makes sense I suppose, it's not much fun getting no points for a win, especially if you don't understand the inner workings of the ladder.
The only practical aspect for this thread is that it means when someone wins and receives 1 point it can't be known whether his adj points are 336-368 higher than his opponent's mmr, or 368+.
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So the herp is taking over me tonight. Somehow I'm failing to comprehend the process I think, but I gave it a shot. Ended up ranging me from 150-200 mmr in diamond league. So does that put me somewhere in tier 1/2, or am I messing something up there?
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On April 29 2012 14:25 ronpaul012 wrote:
So the herp is taking over me tonight. Somehow I'm failing to comprehend the process I think, but I gave it a shot. Ended up ranging me from 150-200 mmr in diamond league. So does that put me somewhere in tier 1/2, or am I messing something up there?
Your MMR doesn't translate into your division tier. Also the MMR you'll get is in relation to the division modifier and tier modifier of your opponent, so calculating from a game against master is not the same as calculating against an opponent of Diamond from some tier. There's no simple way to find out your Diamond tier modifier yet.
I've been collecting data from my own games since making this thread. It's not a lot of games because I don't play all that often, but on the plus side every time I've lost I asked my opponent how many points he received without bonus, and so far (to my surprise and delight) all 5 of them have replied with the answer. But my last game result makes no sense to me, and I'm quite stumped to explain it.
Here's a photo of my excel sheet:
![[image loading]](http://s18.postimage.org/y65s0s8l1/blanka.jpg)
and here's the excel file
Game #10 against Blanka gives my MMR as 220 +- 16, but my previous game which was a win gave my MMR as 289 +- 16. The 2 games before that were wins as well.
At the time of playing me Blanka had 3-3 record in Master league (I verified with him and he was indeed master the entire season). His relatively low games count this far into the season is the only unique thing about him I can think of.
After our game I kept an eye on Blanka's match history and recorded his next 4 games, and they are attached in the excel file (though about the games that Blanka lost following our match I can not be certain I did not include part bonus points in his opponent's points change).
What could've possibly caused the MMR drop before my game against Blanka? It's big enough fall that to explain it via a linear F function requires bumping the increment value all the way to 42, which doesn't make any sense.
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You obviously put a LOT of time into the OP, great job. Though i'm very confused what this actually does, i get if you want to know your MMR really badly, but idk if this is truely worth it haha.
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Well, this leaves me with one question: How can I estimate if I´m close to a promotion?
My MMR shows me 182-214. I´m Diamond but I can´t tell the tier.
What now?
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Submit to the Journal of ESports?
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Thank you for this excellent article you genius.
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I made a quick exel file -based on other versions here- that should be very easy to use.
With error messages on bad data or data that this algorithm cant use:
XLS File
ODS File
Howto:
+ Show Spoiler +Dont forget, it must be a recent game or you have to calculate the opponents points back... B: Points of Opponent C: Bonuspool of Opponent D: Change he got for this game (- / + , Direct copy WITH possible Bonuspool)+ Show Spoiler +
The file calculates the right amount without bonus.
If its not possible to calculate the amount it will give you an error message.
Calculation:
If opponent lost: nothing to do
If opponent won and have bonus pool : /2 and round down,
If opponent won and have no bonus pool : Error message
If you KNOW the amount (by asking him), you can enter it in AH
: Master or Grandmaster F : Total Bonuspool ( sc2rank xml file ) = I : Possible error messages. K : Your MMR
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On April 30 2012 03:44 Damnight wrote:
Well, this leaves me with one question: How can I estimate if I´m close to a promotion?
My MMR shows me 182-214. I´m Diamond but I can´t tell the tier.
What now?
Its all about the tier of your opponents, thats why you only calculate with master/GM opponents!
If you have a MMR of 198 based on a master opponent, calculate the MMR of some random, active, master guys and look how close you are. If you can hold your MMR in average for longer time at master level, the system will promote you.
PS: now with knowledge of your mmr , it does not care if you are dia or master any more.
We can calculate better than this bad bronce-gm system
@Excalibur_Z
whats up on the Tier front?
With calculating 5-10 MMRs out of each division and take the average it should be possible to get the tiers of most of them.
Perhaps start a project where every dia guy here on tl can calculate the average for his own division?
On the other hand we can only calculate the guys that play master opponents to start with and than work on from there.
Or is there a project that already have a ingame bnet spider done? so you can automatic the work?
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EPT
