I had a discussion with my co-workers today, whether a sc2 pro could take on two average players, who do understand much bout the game but never aimed to become a pro at it.
My line of thought was that even tho I consider myself avg or even worse at sc2, I do not see anyone (no matter how good) win against two players like me. We would simply go mass marines for the first 5-7min(or even less) and walk into the base of our opponent. He might be able to get a slight advantage due to his micro/macro etc. but this would mean something like 1-2 more scv's etc. or even 1-2 tier (very unlikely however) 1 units. We would still have a army almost twice as big and simply walk in the base and wreck havoc. Since i know that theres no sense in playing a macro game with someone knows the game inside out, I'd simply rush from the begining.
Although they didn't think that the pro would win 100% of the time, they still argued and try to convince me that he'd have some chances. I on the other hand, think that he wouldn't have even 0.001% of them. Same applies to other semi-balanced games like wc3.
I myself am an average masters player, and i reckon two masters players can 2v1 outplay any pro anyday. There is ofcourse the skill difference between the masters players and a pro, but being with two is way better then having the advantage of being a pro.
I mean, couldn't a pro Zerg player just 6 pool you and win? Odds are he (or she) can out-micro your workers and win... Also he or she could go for a baneling all in and win too. It really depends on race combinations as well.
Lets say 1 player does a stargate allin, Player 2 commits to a 6-7 gate allin I dont see how anyone could hold it off. If the players are like Plat/gold, then probably not. However higher then that then no the pro loses.
There was this "bet" on a thread on TL 1.5 years ago when SC2 just released. This forum-member called CheAse, he was high diamond at the time (I don't think masters league was invented yet, w/e) and he was challenged by 2 of his classmates who were both in gold-league (in 2v2). There was a $100 bet on the line, the thread/hype amounted to 100+ pages and the games were even live-casted by several casters.
So 1 high-diamond (prob a high masters now) vs 2 gold-leaguers and it was a bo5 (or bo7 lol). And CheAse won by a score of 3-1 I think. He lost the first game b/c he tried to macro up but the 2 gold-leaguers just all-inned him. But afterwards, CheAse went for harass as well and that really threw the scrubs off their game and he managed to win the series.
But the 2 guys he faced were BAD, like, one of the dudes built-a-PF-at-their-main-BAD.
On April 20 2012 04:02 KookyMonster wrote: I mean, couldn't a pro Zerg player just 6 pool you and win? Odds are he (or she) can out-micro your workers and win... Also he or she could go for a baneling all in and win too. It really depends on race combinations as well.
2 platinum players could both 6pool a pro-gamer (and bring drones too) and just win as well. lol.
At least, they'd auto win against a Zerg pro-gamer (no wall).
Against a Protoss or Terran pro-gamer, proxy 2rax from each platinum player would auto win (drowning the pro-gamer player in marines and a few scvs).
Quantity of units, not quality. No reason to push it past the 10 minute mark, because then actual divide and conquer or high-level mechanics can push the advantage towards the pro-gamer.
On April 20 2012 04:02 KookyMonster wrote: I mean, couldn't a pro Zerg player just 6 pool you and win? Odds are he (or she) can out-micro your workers and win... Also he or she could go for a baneling all in and win too. It really depends on race combinations as well.
2 platinum players could both 6pool a pro-gamer (and bring drones too) and just win as well. lol.
At least, they'd auto win against a Zerg pro-gamer (no wall).
Against a Protoss or Terran pro-gamer, proxy 2rax from each platinum player would auto win (drowning the pro-gamer player in marines and a few scvs).
Quantity of units, not quality. No reason to push it past the 10 minute mark, because then actual divide and conquer or high-level mechanics can push the advantage towards the pro-gamer.
i disagree, its possible to hold 2 6pools and 2 proxy hatch played by platinum players for top pros. keep in mind they fear the early game the most, they will play safe.
The pro would beat you at your own game. A zerg, for instance, would likely early pool and do a lot of damage to one of you by simple virtue of out-microing you. From there, they use their superior multitasking to simply beat the other guy. You'd be surprised at the level differences even among masters players, and then pros.
Think about this:
Low masters players are almost consistently beaten 1v1 by high masters players. High masters are are almost always beat by grandmasters. Grandmasters are almost always beaten by the tip-top in grandmasters.
And then there's another level entirely of the "super-pros" that would just demolish. They're almost super human. Think about it. Most of us could never hope to beat even a pro like incontrol. Incontrol would probably beat any one of us almost every single time. But there are players in EG, like idra, who beat incontrol every time (almost). But there's players who beat idra almost everytime too.
The point I'm making is that SC2 has more levels than most people realize. If we're talking about one of these super-pros, yes, I think he could beat two players up to mid-masters. Though I would agree he would have difficulty with specific timings, he would likely aim to cripple one of you early.
Any metagame 2:2 strat (that even lots of silver players manage to do) should take a pro down since it hits hard early. But the cut off is around there I'd say. My guess is that a pro should be able to take 2 low gold players in a best of 7 if he manages to secure a quick 2base without dying to early pushes. But it would be close. I have myself 1v2:ed quite a few times when playing custom 2:2 on shattered temple but thats was vs quite worthless players. And by 1v2 I mean that my ally sat in his base playing sim city while I attacked and killed the other guys. This is however quite different from a real 1v2 scenario since while my ally didnt do anything he still exists in the game and cripples the mentality of the opponents.
On April 20 2012 04:14 Felnarion wrote: The pro would beat you at your own game. A zerg, for instance, would likely early pool and do a lot of damage to one of you by simple virtue of out-microing you. From there, they use their superior multitasking to simply beat the other guy. You'd be surprised at the level differences even among masters players, and then pros.
Think about this:
Low masters players are almost consistently beaten 1v1 by high masters players. High masters are are almost always beat by grandmasters. Grandmasters are almost always beaten by the tip-top in grandmasters.
And then there's another level entirely of the "super-pros" that would just demolish. They're almost super human. Think about it. Most of us could never hope to beat even a pro like incontrol. Incontrol would probably beat any one of us almost every single time. But there are players in EG, like idra, who beat incontrol every time (almost). But there's players who beat idra almost everytime too.
The point I'm making is that SC2 has more levels than most people realize. If we're talking about one of these super-pros, yes, I think he could beat two players up to mid-masters. Though I would agree he would have difficulty with specific timings, he would likely aim to cripple one of you early.
I'm not arguing whether gm's are waaay better than the non-grandmasters when it comes to 1v1. Im talking strictly 1v2 here. If the "pro" would chose zerg for that matter, i and my ally would do the same and go early zergs. It's quite simple that he'd pwn one of our bases but at the same time he'd lose his entirely! And the second player with the base still untouched would finish him off if needed. If he would go for terran/toss both me and the ally would chose terran and rush straight from the beginig. I don't see how he would win even one game. If someone feels on the proper level to proove me worng, be my guest. Bah! I'm even willing to bet $25 that such a team would win 3 out of 3
On April 20 2012 04:23 Eatme wrote: Any metagame 2:2 strat (that even lots of silver players manage to do) should take a pro down since it hits hard early. But the cut off is around there I'd say. My guess is that a pro should be able to take 2 low gold players in a best of 7 if he manages to secure a quick 2base without dying to early pushes. But it would be close. I have myself 1v2:ed quite a few times when playing custom 2:2 on shattered temple but thats was vs quite worthless players. And by 1v2 I mean that my ally sat in his base playing sim city while I attacked and killed the other guys. This is however quite different from a real 1v2 scenario since while my ally didnt do anything he still exists in the game and cripples the mentality of the opponents.
I would never let it even come to a expansion. Each game would be over within the first 4-6min.
On April 20 2012 04:23 Eatme wrote: Any metagame 2:2 strat (that even lots of silver players manage to do) should take a pro down since it hits hard early. But the cut off is around there I'd say. My guess is that a pro should be able to take 2 low gold players in a best of 7 if he manages to secure a quick 2base without dying to early pushes. But it would be close. I have myself 1v2:ed quite a few times when playing custom 2:2 on shattered temple but thats was vs quite worthless players. And by 1v2 I mean that my ally sat in his base playing sim city while I attacked and killed the other guys. This is however quite different from a real 1v2 scenario since while my ally didnt do anything he still exists in the game and cripples the mentality of the opponents.
I would never let it even come to a expansion. Each game would be over within the first 4-6min.
With good unit and worker micro they can actually hold you off. Terran progamers especially, since they can wall and build CC in their main. Assuming you are gold, you simply cannot macro, micro, or multitask like a progamer. Past the first few minutes he would probably just have an army as big as both of you combined, and micro those units very cost efficiently.
Back when I was a Gold Protoss (season 1) I beat two of my silver friends in a 1v2 as Terran with just a week of experience playing it.
On April 20 2012 04:26 Ettick wrote: i doubt that even mkp could hold off 2 6 pools lol
Why not? Just wall off. -.-
The only real chance of a 1vs2 has to be with a Terran I think. Zerg and Protoss units don't trade the same way as they do with Terran units, with the bunker and then tanks a little later. Then as long as the other 2 don't max out, they can outplay them.
I'm pretty sure a terran can easily win against diamonds and maybe low masters. Since you can bunker up you have a chance to hold, then harass/secure a 2nd base.
On April 20 2012 04:23 Eatme wrote: Any metagame 2:2 strat (that even lots of silver players manage to do) should take a pro down since it hits hard early. But the cut off is around there I'd say. My guess is that a pro should be able to take 2 low gold players in a best of 7 if he manages to secure a quick 2base without dying to early pushes. But it would be close. I have myself 1v2:ed quite a few times when playing custom 2:2 on shattered temple but thats was vs quite worthless players. And by 1v2 I mean that my ally sat in his base playing sim city while I attacked and killed the other guys. This is however quite different from a real 1v2 scenario since while my ally didnt do anything he still exists in the game and cripples the mentality of the opponents.
I would never let it even come to a expansion. Each game would be over within the first 4-6min.
Are you gold or silver? I admit that I could be wrong but it's kinda hard to tell since I dont play at either level and cant say for sure what they are capable off.
I vaguely remember savior beating several amateur players (in korea though, so still pretty good) in brood war. Not sure how well it would go in sc2 though
On April 20 2012 04:23 Eatme wrote: Any metagame 2:2 strat (that even lots of silver players manage to do) should take a pro down since it hits hard early. But the cut off is around there I'd say. My guess is that a pro should be able to take 2 low gold players in a best of 7 if he manages to secure a quick 2base without dying to early pushes. But it would be close. I have myself 1v2:ed quite a few times when playing custom 2:2 on shattered temple but thats was vs quite worthless players. And by 1v2 I mean that my ally sat in his base playing sim city while I attacked and killed the other guys. This is however quite different from a real 1v2 scenario since while my ally didnt do anything he still exists in the game and cripples the mentality of the opponents.
I would never let it even come to a expansion. Each game would be over within the first 4-6min.
Are you gold or silver? I admit that I could be wrong but it's kinda hard to tell since I dont play at either level and cant say for sure what they are capable off.
Back when i was active, I was platinium. I have switched from wc3 so i knew the basics of a rts game (micro/macro). I'm still not convinced that a Pro like Marineking/Idra/Grubby would stand a chance. The difference in units created between a gm and diamond within the first 5 min or so is marginal. Double the marine count that you have after 5min and tell me how long a wall will stand? I say 0 chances. Any pro can prove me wrong (which wont happen I'm afraid)
Back in good(well i am terran so that were good times^^) old times Morrow - who played terran decades ago - won a 2v1 with massreapers and outmacroed a terran + zerg. They went Marine/roach and were about platnum and a diamond. I watched that on stream and i think it depends a lot on the map and the position(in the game with Morrow they didn´nt know where he spawned).
On April 20 2012 04:42 ralffriend wrote: Back in good(well i am terran so that were good times^^) old times Morrow - who played terran decades ago - won a 2v1 with massreapers and outmacroed a terran + zerg. They went Marine/roach and were about platnum and a diamond. I watched that on stream and i think it depends a lot on the map and the position(in the game with Morrow they didn´nt know where he spawned).
Let's assume that the 2 players the pro would face would be familiar with the term "scouting"
I played against two Silver Zergs and was able to have a bigger army than the two of them combined (both were massing ling/roach vs my pure stalker army)
Masters vs anything gold and under will be a cakewalk. I don't know about Plat--but I do not think it is out of the question.
On topic, this is ridiculously easy if the pro approaches it in the correct manner. An offensive opening that allows him to be aggressive with a few units and then lock down an expansion (say quick forward rax at natural into wallin and FE) works decently well. A few units microed exceptionally well can inflict economic damage for very little cost against a significantly worse opponent.
lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
On April 20 2012 04:51 StavrosHL wrote: lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
Not true. HuK has held a double worker rush vs two master's league players. I think it was on TL Attack.
I won 1v2 vs a Diamond and a gold Korean coach + his friend the other day on stream, 1v2 isn't an issue unless the two opponents are at least masters, even then low masters(na/eu) might still be do-able if its a one-matchup thing..
EDIT - The games I played were TvZ where I went reactor hellion and isolated one of them while going cloak banshee and sending it to the other and CC'ing in base.
Other was a PvZ where I just forge FE'd with 3 blind cannons then macro'd up a deathball and just pushed, because their macro is no where near good enough even combined it is hardly what a real Z could macro by himself.
On April 20 2012 04:06 jazzyjazz wrote: There was this "bet" on a thread on TL 1.5 years ago when SC2 just released. This forum-member called CheAse, he was high diamond at the time (I don't think masters league was invented yet, w/e) and he was challenged by 2 of his classmates who were both in gold-league (in 2v2). There was a $100 bet on the line, the thread/hype amounted to 100+ pages and the games were even live-casted by several casters.
So 1 high-diamond (prob a high masters now) vs 2 gold-leaguers and it was a bo5 (or bo7 lol). And CheAse won by a score of 3-1 I think. He lost the first game b/c he tried to macro up but the 2 gold-leaguers just all-inned him. But afterwards, CheAse went for harass as well and that really threw the scrubs off their game and he managed to win the series.
But the 2 guys he faced were BAD, like, one of the dudes built-a-PF-at-their-main-BAD.
Torch (Currently of Startale) did something similar with his two (actually it could have been three) room mates who hadn't played the game very much and Torch beat them. That was during the beta though.
On April 20 2012 04:54 lastshadow wrote: I won 1v2 vs a Diamond and a gold Korean coach + his friend the other day on stream, 1v2 isn't an issue unless the two opponents are at least masters, even then low masters(na/eu) might still be do-able if its a one-matchup thing..
EDIT - The games I played were TvZ where I went reactor hellion and isolated one of them while going cloak banshee and sending it to the other and CC'ing in base.
Other was a PvZ where I just forge FE'd with 3 blind cannons then macro'd up a deathball and just pushed, because their macro is no where near good enough even combined it is hardly what a real Z could macro by himself.
If you reached reactor hellion and that lead to a win, you know that the opponents weren't even trying lol
On April 20 2012 04:51 StavrosHL wrote: lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
Not true. HuK has held a double worker rush vs two master's league players. I think it was on TL Attack.
Two "master level" players, yeah. Masters in 2v2 does not equal masters in 1v1.
Hell, I know people in 1v1 bronze and in teamleagues they'd be platinum/diamond.
Depends, there are to many variables. For example Platinium players can be either useless or together they could aswell win vs the best progamer if they cooperate and dont fear, because handicaped player will have to resort to some sort of "trick" to equalize his chances, if you take 2 "composed" platinium players and they will cooperate they can take down anyone. Quantity will always win in this case, even rush strategy from pro player would be defeated if second opponent would bring his workers and surround. Thats how simple it is. Handicapped player will be always on offensive and teamed player will only need to play survive cheese and flood him.
Playing 1v2 is really fucking hard, as faceroll strats can become stupidly powerful. I once played ZvTT against two friends of mine, where I would say my ZvT is at about a mid-master level, and my friends were both at about gold. However, all they did was essentially go 14 rax marines from 1base (7rax each) and keep rallying and a-moving. Despite having just about zero micro and no upgrades at all, even with me going essentially baneling/infestor with burrow and whatknot... it just doesn't matter, there are just too many fucking marines >.>
tl;dr The skill gap has to be really big for a 1v2 to be even, as some builds becomes exponentially more powerful in a 2v1 situation, regardless of skill level.
I saw MLG do this with Nestea. I'm not sure what level the opponents were, certainly below masters though. He put up a good fight but it was obviously so unfair there was no chance.
On April 20 2012 04:54 lastshadow wrote: I won 1v2 vs a Diamond and a gold Korean coach + his friend the other day on stream, 1v2 isn't an issue unless the two opponents are at least masters, even then low masters(na/eu) might still be do-able if its a one-matchup thing..
EDIT - The games I played were TvZ where I went reactor hellion and isolated one of them while going cloak banshee and sending it to the other and CC'ing in base.
Other was a PvZ where I just forge FE'd with 3 blind cannons then macro'd up a deathball and just pushed, because their macro is no where near good enough even combined it is hardly what a real Z could macro by himself.
If you reached reactor hellion and that lead to a win, you know that the opponents weren't even trying lol
Well, if there's anyone that would take you up on the offer it's probably LS. It'd be a fun thing to stream a bo5 or bo7 of this just to see how it actually plays out.
Doing it with Zerg is infinitely harder than P/T. Terran is far and away the best race for 1v2s because of drops, wall-off, mass-repair bunkers, and the ability to make an in-base CC.
On April 20 2012 04:06 jazzyjazz wrote: There was this "bet" on a thread on TL 1.5 years ago when SC2 just released. This forum-member called CheAse, he was high diamond at the time (I don't think masters league was invented yet, w/e) and he was challenged by 2 of his classmates who were both in gold-league (in 2v2). There was a $100 bet on the line, the thread/hype amounted to 100+ pages and the games were even live-casted by several casters.
So 1 high-diamond (prob a high masters now) vs 2 gold-leaguers and it was a bo5 (or bo7 lol). And CheAse won by a score of 3-1 I think. He lost the first game b/c he tried to macro up but the 2 gold-leaguers just all-inned him. But afterwards, CheAse went for harass as well and that really threw the scrubs off their game and he managed to win the series.
But the 2 guys he faced were BAD, like, one of the dudes built-a-PF-at-their-main-BAD.
well worker rush, 1 toss for shields and imba probe attack, 1 terran for repair. But without the worker rush, its doable. Just have to prevent the 2 players from going over 200 supply together. And if your macro is superior the opponent has to defend together, which means there are alot of holes for harassment. Anyway it was proven on multiple occasions that its doable. So sorry OP you are wrong ^^.
At lower levels, definitely. Lower league players such as bronze-low gold have like half of everything a pro as at a certain point if both use the same strategy. Two masters though I doubt it. I don't see how holding off a double worker rush is the same as holding off two 4 gates, two proxy raxs, etc. Pros can win easily as well though, if they go for an early rush that kills one opponent then uses superior mechanics to get back on level with the other player.
On April 20 2012 05:07 FeyFey wrote: well worker rush, 1 toss for shields and imba probe attack, 1 terran for repair. But without the worker rush, its doable. Just have to prevent the 2 players from going over 200 supply together. And if your macro is superior the opponent has to defend together, which means there are alot of holes for harassment. Anyway it was proven on multiple occasions that its doable. So sorry OP you are wrong ^^.
Nope, Im not proven wrong ^^ I've watched the first game of the grudgematch and I couldn't be bothered to watch any more of that. They had no clue what they're doing. On top of that the micro/macro and overall game knowledge was eghmm...lousy at best. One of the players went in with mutas into two thors and instead of microing them out, he started to be witty and typed "now youre dead" or something like that. It goes without saying, he lost most of them while killing 1-2 scv's ? :D
To make it more precise: I'm not asking if a pro could take any two scrubs who just have installed the game and are keen on trying new things and such. I'm talking about 2 players who arent even trying to become pro, but aren't braindead and do know stuff bout this sc2. All those comments that some of you might've pwnd some gold players are cool and all, but thats no wonder tbh. It's like saying that you have beaten two easy pc's. lol
Edit: I watched some part of the second game and my first impression was wrong. They weren't even trying. The pink zerg thought that it's more important to make witty comments throughout the whole game than to work on his economy (constantly 200+ gold while not building anything ? :D).
On April 20 2012 04:04 ownyah wrote: Lets say 1 player does a stargate allin, Player 2 commits to a 6-7 gate allin I dont see how anyone could hold it off. If the players are like Plat/gold, then probably not. However higher then that then no the pro loses.
I think that is exactly the kind of game that a pro could win vs two people.
On April 20 2012 04:51 StavrosHL wrote: lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
Not true. HuK has held a double worker rush vs two master's league players. I think it was on TL Attack.
Two "master level" players, yeah. Masters in 2v2 does not equal masters in 1v1.
Hell, I know people in 1v1 bronze and in teamleagues they'd be platinum/diamond.
One thing that I didn't see anyone mention yet is the map. Big map with abusable air spaces would allow a pro to beat much better players than a small map.
On April 20 2012 04:51 StavrosHL wrote: lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
Not true. HuK has held a double worker rush vs two master's league players. I think it was on TL Attack.
Two "master level" players, yeah. Masters in 2v2 does not equal masters in 1v1.
Hell, I know people in 1v1 bronze and in teamleagues they'd be platinum/diamond.
One was mid master 1v1, other was top master 1v1.
If the map is so large that he can get out as many workers as the worker rushers have when they arrive (12) i guess it's possible. No way he can beat two Master league players workers with a lower amount of workers!?
Those guys don't deserve masters if he can anyway ^^
On April 20 2012 04:51 StavrosHL wrote: lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
Not true. HuK has held a double worker rush vs two master's league players. I think it was on TL Attack.
Two "master level" players, yeah. Masters in 2v2 does not equal masters in 1v1.
Hell, I know people in 1v1 bronze and in teamleagues they'd be platinum/diamond.
One was mid master 1v1, other was top master 1v1.
If the map is so large that he can get out as many workers as the worker rushers have when they arrive (12) i guess it's possible. No way he can beat two Master league players workers with a lower amount of workers!?
Those guys don't deserve masters if he can anyway ^^
Watch the VOD. It was played on Twilight Fortress. HuK had fewer workers than his opponents (both Protoss if I remember correctly).
I'm high masters and I feel like I could teach any 2 bronze league players enough in 20 mins to beat any pro. I'd probably do something like a 9 pylon 10 gate 10 gate from one and a 4 gate. If the cheese doesn't kill them it will fuck their econ enough to make the 4 gate capable of just an attack move victory.
That or just double 9,10,10. That shit is brutal to stop no matter who you are they can just attack move with their zealots and still win.
Well it depends on builds. Some builds are just realllly strong, even if pulled off by goldies. With a double 6pool/drones all in, you get 12 zerglings + 14 drones in the base of your opponent. That's just too much, even with pro micro...What do you think ?
On the other hand, if the game is not about 6 pool or super early agression build, I think that a pro vs 2 masters would get destroyed big time. I think 1 pro vs 2 diamonds would also lose. I'm not sure about 1 pro vs 2 platinums. 1 pro vs 2 golds/silvers/bronze would win.
MKP vs 2 Plat players Showmatch $500 would be rly interesting :D
I am rank 1 diamond and tried it vs gold/plat and it was going better than expected but i lost (they didnt rush thought). So i think in a game where no attack happens in first 10 min, the pro player can win vs 2 plat guys but with all the rush stuff theres no way. Imagine 2 players going for 6 rax allin? Silver/Gold Players could do that and would beat pretty much any pro with it
maybe 2 diamond players? i think it depends mostly on how much multitasking can be abused. i could see a pro win if he is dropping one guy in 2 places at once (dealing massive damage) repeatedly and the other guy just says "fuck it im going for it" and then the pro holds the allin. i dont see these mistakes happening anywhere higher than diamond.
This is pretty easy to do given a medium-big map. I'm pretty sure any decent player could 1v2 any NA mid master players. Anything below masters would be a waste of time even with 1v2. People fail to see how big the skill gap is and how far micro/macro can get you.
I mean there would only be a chance for the pro if there were rules set before hand. Whats to stop these people from just building up to 10 workers and double rushing 20 workers vs 12 and A-move.
On April 20 2012 06:13 Msr wrote: This is pretty easy to do given a medium-big map. I'm pretty sure any decent player could 1v2 any NA mid master players. Anything below masters would be a waste of time even with 1v2. People fail to see how big the skill gap is and how far micro/macro can get you.
You think a diamond player can't throw out a 4gate at 5:45, let alone a masters player? The biggest issue is just dying early. If it gets to the midgame it's pretty much over, but macro isn't very relevant for a while and it's gonna be super hard to not die.
On April 20 2012 06:25 blagoonga123 wrote: Do you guys think someone like DRG could beat 2 High Masters if he started with 2 bases? (Like if his partner had just left the game or whatever)
Probably, right?
I think he would be like a 10-90 dog as high masters are pretty good. Vs low masters he would probably be around 50-50 though.
On April 20 2012 06:25 blagoonga123 wrote: Do you guys think someone like DRG could beat 2 High Masters if he started with 2 bases? (Like if his partner had just left the game or whatever)
Probably, right?
Probably (and it would be even better with 2 zergs bases :p)
But the scenario in the OP is about a normal 1 vs 2.
There are a lot of ways to survive rushes, even if they have 2x the units. Let's not forget that starcraft is about adapting, sure the two high master players would win most of the team, but given a slight slip-up and the pro will win for sure. Some of it depends on the race and match-ups. For example, it would a lot harder for a zerg player to stop 2 4gates and come out on top than a terran or protoss.
On April 20 2012 06:25 blagoonga123 wrote: Do you guys think someone like DRG could beat 2 High Masters if he started with 2 bases? (Like if his partner had just left the game or whatever)
Probably, right?
lol he doesn't have to be DRG, happens so often in 2v2 games, a high master with 2 bases can easily beat 2 high master players
On April 20 2012 06:25 blagoonga123 wrote: Do you guys think someone like DRG could beat 2 High Masters if he started with 2 bases? (Like if his partner had just left the game or whatever)
Probably, right?
I think he would be like a 10-90 dog as high masters are pretty good. Vs low masters he would probably be around 50-50 though.
what? DRG with 2 bases vs 2 high masters would be like 80-20 favorite instead of 10-90 dog lol
Two bronze players could beat any pro on planet earth after 2 days training explaining them all the possibilities they can do. edit: by 2 days i mean 15 seconds,
On April 20 2012 06:31 Mesha wrote: Two bronze players could beat any pro on planet earth after 2 days training explaining them all the possibilities they can do. edit: by 2 days i mean 15 seconds,
aside from difference in UI usage skill between pro vs average in bw and sc2, i think defending with the least amount of resources is much higher in bw than sc2 for many reasons. because thats pretty much what the pro would have to do before he can macro enough to support a econ to do a efficient 1v2.
before having the chance to cripple one player or macro enough to sufficiently fight two players, he would have to survive the initial push and survive it barely with the minimal resources spent on defending, this is just much harder to achieve with sc2 unless the opposing player is stupid.
Myself and another master player did a NR 10 min 2v1 vs vileillusion a couple months ago. We got completely destroyed. He just picked us apart with his drops and crazy apm.
On April 20 2012 04:51 StavrosHL wrote: lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
Not true. HuK has held a double worker rush vs two master's league players. I think it was on TL Attack.
Two "master level" players, yeah. Masters in 2v2 does not equal masters in 1v1.
Hell, I know people in 1v1 bronze and in teamleagues they'd be platinum/diamond.
One was mid master 1v1, other was top master 1v1.
If the map is so large that he can get out as many workers as the worker rushers have when they arrive (12) i guess it's possible. No way he can beat two Master league players workers with a lower amount of workers!?
Those guys don't deserve masters if he can anyway ^^
Watch the VOD. It was played on Twilight Fortress. HuK had fewer workers than his opponents (both Protoss if I remember correctly).
On April 20 2012 04:06 jazzyjazz wrote: There was this "bet" on a thread on TL 1.5 years ago when SC2 just released. This forum-member called CheAse, he was high diamond at the time (I don't think masters league was invented yet, w/e) and he was challenged by 2 of his classmates who were both in gold-league (in 2v2). There was a $100 bet on the line, the thread/hype amounted to 100+ pages and the games were even live-casted by several casters.
So 1 high-diamond (prob a high masters now) vs 2 gold-leaguers and it was a bo5 (or bo7 lol). And CheAse won by a score of 3-1 I think. He lost the first game b/c he tried to macro up but the 2 gold-leaguers just all-inned him. But afterwards, CheAse went for harass as well and that really threw the scrubs off their game and he managed to win the series.
But the 2 guys he faced were BAD, like, one of the dudes built-a-PF-at-their-main-BAD.
Oh man, I remember this. I watched it live. Hilarious stuff. Good times.
The goatrope stream was hilarious. Basically a bunch of friends bantering on about the game. I miss that stream, but apparently goat moved on to other things in life.
Oh, and there is also vintage Wolf. Cool to hear how he casted back in the day, especially now that he is now doing a fine job in GSL.
Depends on the map, but one of the best Pro's could absolutely demolish 2 low-mid master league palyers 2 on 1, I'm pretty sure most of the current ladder maps would suffice. Especially so for terran, not a balance rant, just saying that terran has some of the best defensive capabalities while being able to harass. A nice bunker line to defend a quick expansion followed by some reaper or banshee harass could pretty quickly make it more like a 1 on 1.
And if the game goes long, most master league players don't even sort of compare with the macro of a good pro, anything late game will be completely 1 sided.
Not sure about a zerg, if 2 master players both 6 pooled DRG or Leenock, it would be intersting to say the least. Would love to see a 2 on 1 in a GSL Off the Record.
On April 20 2012 04:51 StavrosHL wrote: lol , why getting tired of thinking so much instead of make that simple assumption : 2x worker rushes ( especially pp or zz ) will insta win the game no matter what lvl the opponent is.
Not true. HuK has held a double worker rush vs two master's league players. I think it was on TL Attack.
Yet still, he lost to a 3rax after defending the probe rush. I therefore believe that this game kinda goes against your point.
im willing to say that the top tier pros should have a fairly decent chance vs two low diamonds and lower but thats imo and only from my limited knowledge from the NA server
You cant beat 2 masters players, you can win 2 diamonds pretty easy unless you are zerg and they do 2x 6 pool or something or do some double allin which you are simply outnumbered.
On April 20 2012 04:06 jazzyjazz wrote: There was this "bet" on a thread on TL 1.5 years ago when SC2 just released. This forum-member called CheAse, he was high diamond at the time (I don't think masters league was invented yet, w/e) and he was challenged by 2 of his classmates who were both in gold-league (in 2v2). There was a $100 bet on the line, the thread/hype amounted to 100+ pages and the games were even live-casted by several casters.
So 1 high-diamond (prob a high masters now) vs 2 gold-leaguers and it was a bo5 (or bo7 lol). And CheAse won by a score of 3-1 I think. He lost the first game b/c he tried to macro up but the 2 gold-leaguers just all-inned him. But afterwards, CheAse went for harass as well and that really threw the scrubs off their game and he managed to win the series.
But the 2 guys he faced were BAD, like, one of the dudes built-a-PF-at-their-main-BAD.
Oh man, I remember this. I watched it live. Hilarious stuff. Good times.
The goatrope stream was hilarious. Basically a bunch of friends bantering on about the game. I miss that stream, but apparently goat moved on to other things in life.
Oh, and there is also vintage Wolf. Cool to hear how he casted back in the day, especially now that he is now doing a fine job in GSL.
Man, this was one of the best things that happened around beta time. I'm glad some people around here still remember it :D
Pros, while "godlike", are still limited by game's design. Against bronze players, you don't have to be a pro to win 1v2. Against any 2 decent platinum players, assuming there are no rules, no pro right now will even stand a chance unless his opponents are just trolling. Adding one more player to a 1v1 game where all players have an decent understanding of the game disrupts the whole balance of the game, if it didn't, the game would be considered imbalanced.
The 2 players would win every time with the right strategy. If the pro is a zerg, a double 6 pool will kill him outright. If not, the two players can both go Protoss and double four-gate. No one can hold two four-gates at the same time. At the same time, double proxy barracks would also be incredibly hard to hold. Hell, a early zealot-marauder push would also be impossible to defend
any standard 2v2 strategy would absolutely roll a pro no problem, its just not mathematically doable to have a chance 1v2 maybe if you are automaton 2000 and can lift tanks with medivacs with 30k apm but for a human its not possible.
Watch Huk's TL Attack, it shows something about 2v1 and how even in a game where Huk had every advantage early, he really stood no chance against 2 mining bases from the start of the game. I would say that if you are talking about players who are at least plat/gold, it would be very difficult for the pro to ever win.
I believe it was check.prime, who is now retired, who did a 4v1 between him and some diamonds back when diamond was highest, he then beat them all because they did not work as a team.
On April 20 2012 12:00 Bluerain wrote: a pro would destroy 2 masters players easily every single time. ur worse than u think
lol how? I could just 2port cloak banshee while my friend 11/11s, or I could go mass pressure with speedlings while my friend gets that Protoss deathball started. If 2 masters players actually worked together and used their brains i'm pretty sure they could 2v1.
The pro will lose even to gold players if the gold players are told what strategy to employ (e.g. a 2v2 rush strat). If the game is played straight-up, I reckon the pro has a chance to win.
It's remotely funny to see a lot of people here think the pro stands any semblance of a chance against something like a group of 2 diamonds. Any joint all-in will kill the pro. The better question, and the one I came into this thread to see, is if a pro can beat a team of 2 diamonds, trained to work as a team for a few days, where one macros and one micros.
Any remotely capable player could beat a pro in a 2v1 by all-ining. Where the cutoff is? I guess it depends on the map, but I'd say platinum/gold at least can handle it.
It'd be interesting to see the pro start with two bases, or perhaps even an island (or semi-island) map to deter cheap early rushes. Then the cutoff would be much higher.
Check out Chease's grudgematch as an example of how they can. Keep in mind that 2 average players could easily just six pool any race and completely overwhelm that player in every game though. Aside from double cheeses, it's probably very possible.
If the two players both 6pool or proxy I don't see the pro holding it off, but in a straight up game a player like Mvp could probably take down two low platinum players.
I used to be mid masters several seasons ago, and I played my friends who are inbetween bronze - plat in 1v2 / 1v3 plenty of times. Anything not masters is pretty crap, hell what am I saying, anything not high GM is pretty crap. Even tho they might sometimes do some push that could be a threat, they'd probably get outplayed on all other fields so hard that they would still have a hard time taking down 1 guy. So yes, I believe a pro would definatly win. Actually anyone who ISNT pro does so much stupid shit a pro could easily gain advantages. In a 1v2 masters it'd depend alot on how much the 2 masters actually know how to abuse their advantage as much as possible. But a GM against 2 masters? probably not, the 'pro's' im talking about here would have to be gsl material or something. Just your average GM isn't THAT special.
The only thing i'd worry about would be that even tho the pro has the skill to outplay, he doesnt have enough time to outplay them, because if the 2 noobs do something cheesy early on, it might not be holdable regardless of skill. But then again, if we are going to count in cheese : a noob can beat a pro with a cheesy build if he gets lucky and hides it well. There is always the chance, even if its only a small one.
Well the two players' skill doesn't matter at all if they just learn a cheesy allin. 2v1, 2 players of any caliber with a strong allin can beat anyone.
Find 3 players of equal skill, play 1v2 terran vs protoss+zerg. The terran gets to play the campaign version of terran, with all the upgrades (free orbital at start, reactored CC, automated refinery, merc compound, psi disruptor, etc).
Who wins? (Let's say it's on a huge map where free mule at start + double SCVs can fend off a worker rush.)
In sc2? haha, not a chance for a pro vs 2 master players, not even diamond players... Mayyyybe 2 platinum players, and still they would need to fuck up really badly. It would be another story in BW, where good mechanics make difference since the start of the game, not from 7th minute or so...
Ìf I remember correctly, back in BW 3 guys from TL played against Sea[Shield] and lost.
I'm not sure the same would be true of SC2. SC2 limits skill in a number of ways that makes it more harder for a superior player to demonstrate just how superior he is mechanically. Perhaps if you impose some restrictions on how the non-pros should play, but that would defeat the whole purpose.
I don't think a Zerg would be able to hold off double early aggression as well as the other two races, it's something I noticed playing in 2's/3's/4's. Having said that, while it would be easier with forcefields and supply depot wall ins, it'd still be nigh impossible simply because the difference in macro between pro level players and people with a good hold on mechanics isn't large enough. Not to say it's close by any margin, but it's nowhere near enough to keep up with two simultaneous economies.
I won a 1v2 vs ZP (gold and platinum) as Z a few months ago, I just went 14/14 baneling and immediately killed the zerg so I was left in a ZvP where the protoss is ahead, but since the protoss was only platinum level I could overcome being behind and end up winning anyway
Definitely think terran is the best and protoss is the worst for 1v2 though, and I think you'd be very hard pressed to find someone who could 1v2 two diamond players or better.
On April 20 2012 04:03 monkh wrote: This should be an OTR challange "Fight 2 players at same time"
This would be way fun to see. I tweeted @gomtv requesting it.
I once played against 3 people who only play customs and won. I just had to brace for the rush with spine crawlers then muta harass was enough to keep them in their base and pick them apart.
Wasn't there a event at some school in Korea where flash played against 3-4 students at the same time.I think he offraced protoss as well and still rolled them.
You know I want to bring up Warcraft 3 into the discussion because I feel like Blizzard has designed Starcraft 2 battle.net to be IMPOSSIBLE to win when its 1v2.
In Warcraft 3 I played so much 2v2 random team. When random team would only match random team. None of this RT vs AT (Arranged Team) bullshit. So first off the 1v2 factor vs Arranged Teams with set strats makes it impossible to almost when when your ally drops/leaves at the start. However in Warcraft 3 when my ally disconnected/left at the start my win rate was amazing.
The different is in Warcraft 3, the money mined and lumber (minerals and gas) would go only to "that player's" base/army or whatever you want to call it. In Starcraft 2 it stacks onto your money. So its virutally pointless to build with your partner's base. Just get up to 25 food and just macro with his workers only.
In warcraft 3 you really only need 1-2 control groups usually for your army's heros/units. SO I would mass up myself with melee units, and the partner who left with range. Get tier 2, and 2nd hero with each race and just go win. It was so simple with 1 person controlling 2 armies. Easier to use the hero stills in combination. And you actually could have made the case if you got good enough that you were almost unstoppable if you were fast enough to win 1v2's with ease as a Random player vs 2 random players. (any races didn't matter).
It's all fucked up, they made starcraft 2 team play so bad for the "guy that just wants to play some random team alone and without friends".
Can't tell you how many times I would just get out of class or work, come home, just want to play versus some random players and have some fair games and then get matched vs Sorcery (josh price, igware, hacker) and his homo butt buddy (sublime/vitamin), protechs, pro 2v2 teams like ItsGosu (kyhol/bubbles) and even take a ton of games of these guys.
I hate it I hate it I hate it.
It was honestly a big deal playing 2v2 RT in warcraft 3 on the azeroth server. The 2v2 RT ladder was almost a bigger thing than the AT ladder because it took more skill IMO than just KOTG/FS ne/orc AT teams.
I really think starcraft 2 fails in this aspect. Now I know the thread is about 1 pro vs 2 players but just wanted to rant about that. I think only if myself and another clone of myself at masters NA would play any pro in the world, there's no way I'd lose to any pro of any race. 2 Terrans vs a protoss or something, double reapers at the start into double marauder, into mass marine, into 1 go marine tank PPD, 1 go banshee. It would just be too much for any protoss to handle. If the protoss went to attack my partners base I would just hit his main, kill him, have my partner turtle for as long as possible while I build up another big army to finish it.
It would honestly have to be a pro game vs like 2 straight up plats or lower.
I'm a plat toss, not terribly clued up on 2v2 strats, and if me and another toss of my caliber had to play MKP tomorrow, I have a feeling MKP would win.
On April 20 2012 04:02 KookyMonster wrote: I mean, couldn't a pro Zerg player just 6 pool you and win? Odds are he (or she) can out-micro your workers and win... Also he or she could go for a baneling all in and win too. It really depends on race combinations as well.
There isn't even need to rush. Those 2 players can also make quick expos because their small forces combined can hold off any kind of pressure. in sc2 economy/unit production macro is not that hard so most of master players could macro and raise in supply almost like a pros. they just shouldn't lose their time on harrass and stuff. And if pro has 200 supply, 2 amateurs would have like 300-350 and better economy, I'd really like to see someone holding 350 supply even if it's only A move.
Used to be top 5 on 2v2 ladder RT player as a Zerg, and I was always rushed by TT and TP teams (zealot marine or whatever). You'd be surprised how easy it is to hold.
Of course from that position it is almost impossible to win without a teammate.
Last time I played 1v2 with friends, it was low masters vs 2 golds and it was pretty easy after the first few attacks.
I'd definitely lose to two Plats though. I'm sure a Pro could take on 2 low diamonds.
I think this depends on many factors, most importantly on race and the map involved, which makes it very hard to say. i think terran would be the best race for the pro, but im not sure against what combination he would do best. i think in the best case it should be possible to beat 2 diamond or maybe 2 low master players (also depends on server i guess).
You can't deal with 2 armies that require different response, unless you are way ahead.
A more interesting idea will be playing on the micro-macro map, though it's rather hard to translate the thoughts from the micro player to the macro player. Terran will be the easier race to do so though, since it emphasizes on continuous production.
As high master playing with many lower level friends I did 1v2 very often. To some extend it was possible to win 1v2. I could most often deal with 1 low master+ platinum max. The strategy I most often used to win against 1 lower skilled and 1 scrub is to demOlish the lower skilled first and then play the game out agains the platinum. E.g if Im zerg and the low master is zerg aswell I would just outmicro and kill him with ling bling. Then i try to hold off the platinum with what I have and proceed to win the game.
I only lost if they went for something real gimmicky. Like one goes for fast air and other fast rush (6pool etc) or both do a fast rush. But honestly, against 2 scrubs u can very often hold 2 6pools till certain skill level. 2 diamond 4gates would always demolish me but 2 diamond zerg/Protoss i could win against if I manage to kill the zerg straigt away and man up va the 4 gate. So if 2 diamond~ level would do a smart tactic its almost impossible to win (like 2x 4gate vs zerg) but 2 platinum doing same is easily to stop. They just dont posses the timings. If 2 plat do 2x 4gate its almost same as 1 high master doing a 6gate, but easier to detect and easier to stop.
So in other words, if u fetch me 2 platinum, im 100% sure i can win 3/5 times. Doesnt matter what tactics they use. 1 diamond + 1 platinum it gets harder (maybe 2/5 wins), 1 low master and 1 platinum (2/5) and 2 diamonds or higher (1/5 or less). For a pro i could imagine him beatig 2 diamonds. Theres still a huge cap between high master, top master, grand master, top grand master and korean
Plat and lower i would think so, diamond... as long as they have voice com/can plan before the game i believe only a zerg and maybe one of the insane micro T/P ( as long as they are not T, in which case the toss would just lose since he wouldn't be able to hold a 2 rack + w.e the other guy has with a fe even if there micro is the worst in the world ) If they are mid/high master there would be no way in hell to do it.
I doubt any pro could beat two players. I mean any race combo and strategy 1. greedy rush tech(2port cloaked banshees..etc) while other guy does semi allin agression (7RR,4gate..etc.). In macro I dont know what typical dia guy is capable of but id still not give much chances.
This might be good idea for the GSL preshow or how its called where pros do random stuff like playing with chopsticks
I don't like to use ladder rankings for skill discussions, but in this case it just make things a bit easier. So:
Gold or less, absolutely, isi pisi! I honestly think a strong master player should be able to win this challenge. reason: in gold or below, nobody uses optimised builds, so even a dbl 4gate of 2 gold league players would be easy to hold, because it's horribly timed out and executed. platinum is hard to say. A strong pro gamer should be able to win this. Builds are better than in the leagues below, but nowhere near the optimum. And mechanics and tactical decisions are still very bad here in most of the cases. diamond will be the border. builds are becoming ok here and mechanics are also much better. So yeah, like someone mentioned that violet lost to two diamond players, I also think that here is the border, what's possible. Two master league players should be able to defeat one player of any skill, quite handly, even without going for a cheese/allin, unless they are fucked up abusers, not knowing anything about the game, but using fucked up cheese to get a high ladder ranking.
I have beaten a gold and silver player 1v2 before and I'm a long way short of pro. Obviously there's not much chance of anybody beating two platinum or above players - if they co-operate even slightly.
I agree with the OP. I think even 2 platinum players would beat a pro 2v1, anything above that most certainly. You can't make up for the fact that there are twice as many units and tech paths to counter. It's just not possible.
I asked this question back 2 years ago as a comparison to Brood War. Thought it was interesting. The following short thought is in no way saying any game is better than another game, just pointing out a potential difference.
BW = I'm relatively certain that two of myself couldn't touch any pro SC2 = I kinda think I'd have a good chance against a pro (2 of myself vs him)
Just a different game, can't really explain why it's that (mechanics of the game, units are more powerful maybe?)
Just thought that was an interesting difference between the two game - again not saying good or bad because i don't care at all!
On April 20 2012 04:06 jazzyjazz wrote: There was this "bet" on a thread on TL 1.5 years ago when SC2 just released. This forum-member called CheAse, he was high diamond at the time (I don't think masters league was invented yet, w/e) and he was challenged by 2 of his classmates who were both in gold-league (in 2v2). There was a $100 bet on the line, the thread/hype amounted to 100+ pages and the games were even live-casted by several casters.
So 1 high-diamond (prob a high masters now) vs 2 gold-leaguers and it was a bo5 (or bo7 lol). And CheAse won by a score of 3-1 I think. He lost the first game b/c he tried to macro up but the 2 gold-leaguers just all-inned him. But afterwards, CheAse went for harass as well and that really threw the scrubs off their game and he managed to win the series.
But the 2 guys he faced were BAD, like, one of the dudes built-a-PF-at-their-main-BAD.
Playing 3s with some friends (Im top masters) we were doing placement matches and as a zerg I 14/14 and got double six pooled and marine rushed, only with drones and then 6 lings I held that attack, of course they were 3 bronzies.
So that proves that early games all ins can be easily held by anyone with better mechanics. That said, I would bet that a progamer could take at least 3 o BSG if they do not all in in the first 4 minutes of the game.
Against plat or diamond, it would be either 2 or 3.
Masters, no can do. He could all in one and maybe, MAYBE, outmacro the second one, but most likely not
I've won a 1v3 against silver/gold players. Its definitely possible, just gotta be aggressive from the beginning and be able to constantly harass all of them at the same time, while gaining map control with PFs because they don't take supply.
I think a pro could beat 2 plat players, diamond is a maybe, depends how good the pro is.
On April 20 2012 04:26 Ettick wrote: i doubt that even mkp could hold off 2 6 pools lol
There was some pro game a little while ago where a terran held 6pool with unwalled blind 15cc on low ground on antiga shipyard. Lings are such a joke vs scv/marine and simply cant get past any wall if it is established anywhere
Husky and Spanishiwa in the Master vs Caster series. Husky was a mid-diamond player and he teamed up with a very hard CPU... still lost in a macro game.
If two players, probably even gold got time to prepare for a 2v1 against a pro I'm fairly certain they could crush him, but throw two random masters players without preparation in a 2v1 (let's say they random team 2v2 ladder and one of their opponent disconnects and the the pro doesn't use the disconnects base in any way) I would guess the pro wins. So it's all about knowing how to abuse the 2v1 situation imo
I remember having seen a video from qxc vs 3 opponents and qxc won. Granted, the opponents were terrible, didnt rush/cheese him and didnt organize any combined attack.
They should do this for fun. Get a pro to 1v2 starting at bronze, then silver. And see how far he can make it. Obviously there would have to be a rule against cheesing for the 2 people. You obviously can't stop a 6 pool cannon rush lol.
Probably not, especially if the pro player is a zerg since double all-ins would be brutal. I've tried playing two of my friends before who are silver and plat and i am master and even then it was quite difficult.
On April 21 2012 01:14 Mementoss wrote: They should do this for fun. Get a pro to 1v2 starting at bronze, then silver. And see how far he can make it. Obviously there would have to be a rule against cheesing for the 2 people. You obviously can't stop a 6 pool cannon rush lol.
You actually can, I do it quite frequently against gold/plat players in team games with no help from my teammate when we're screwing around in 2v2s. In fact, if I'm Terran it's basically a free win if they do so; cancel OC and build bunkers --> easy hold. I don't think people realize how awful everyone below GM is actually is.
I am nearly 100% positive a really good Terran could win a bo5 against 2 diamonds/a plat and a diamond, it'd be much harder with Toss and probably borderline impossible with Zerg.
There's absolutely no way that even the best pro will win more than 50% against platinum leaguers.
Put a top protoss against two non-terrans and maybe once in a while he could take a win by putting 6:30 DTs in their bases, or possibly win with a cannon rush on certain maps or against particularly stupid opponents.
An idea like this was a lot more possible in BW, where units could be more abusive against non-skilled opponents if your micro is excellent.
But to win more than 50% in SC2 means having opponents with absolutely no sense of macro and not enough game knowledge to simply 6 pool or worker rush.
On April 20 2012 04:23 Eatme wrote: Any metagame 2:2 strat (that even lots of silver players manage to do) should take a pro down since it hits hard early. But the cut off is around there I'd say. My guess is that a pro should be able to take 2 low gold players in a best of 7 if he manages to secure a quick 2base without dying to early pushes. But it would be close. I have myself 1v2:ed quite a few times when playing custom 2:2 on shattered temple but thats was vs quite worthless players. And by 1v2 I mean that my ally sat in his base playing sim city while I attacked and killed the other guys. This is however quite different from a real 1v2 scenario since while my ally didnt do anything he still exists in the game and cripples the mentality of the opponents.
I would never let it even come to a expansion. Each game would be over within the first 4-6min.
Are you gold or silver? I admit that I could be wrong but it's kinda hard to tell since I dont play at either level and cant say for sure what they are capable off.
Back when i was active, I was platinium. I have switched from wc3 so i knew the basics of a rts game (micro/macro). I'm still not convinced that a Pro like Marineking/Idra/Grubby would stand a chance. The difference in units created between a gm and diamond within the first 5 min or so is marginal. Double the marine count that you have after 5min and tell me how long a wall will stand? I say 0 chances. Any pro can prove me wrong (which wont happen I'm afraid)
So you say you are platinum. And a pro has 0,001% chance to beat you 1v2 (your ally same skill). Many pros on this forum already said its quite possible to do. Gogo showmatch? :p if noone wants I can prove you its possible to win. Problem is I havent played nearly 6 months. And that playing zerg might be quit hard vs 2x 6pools. Also im not a pro but i already stated that i won many 1v2 platinum as high master.
Lets say: 1 Z vs 2x 6 pool, I think its stoppable on medium-large maps if zerg goes 6-8pool himself, and get a spinecrawler + few drones more instead of 6lings early. Then build enough lings (spinecrawlers if needed) to stay alive and get speed faster then opponent. Against platinum theres generally huge timing u have speed before 6poolers to kill 1 or both off. Also 1: pretty sure platinum would be clueless how to play when they arrive at zerg base and see a spine, few lings and 8-10drones). Most often then not theyll suicide the lings on the spine and ull kill them 1 by 1 with micro when ur lingspeed finishes earlier. Even if they dont do that, if you know theyr both going 6 pool just get an early spine some lings speedtech and beat one in the small window.
Lets say 1 T vs 2x 4-6rax. build wall, build bunkers and atleast 4rax. Get 1 banshee and win. I dont know if u ever played against a well microed banshee as terran but im 100% sure a pro can kill a weak eco platinum with only 1 banshee after stopping the rush with few bunkers+scv. As high master ive lost on several occasions vs 1 banshee because i couldnt keep up with his hit-run on workers. Multitasked banshee will destroy any platinum. They cant have anything else then marines after they comitted.
Lets say 1 P vs 2x 2gate or 2x 4gate. This one is most tricky and hardest of all. Forcefield ramp all the time while teching up and hopefully catch em off-guard? Pretty hard. Luckily i dont play Protoss. Oh wait:, pretty sure a well executed 4gate is atleast 20sec earlier then a platinum 4gate. Maybe even as much as a 40secs or so. Meaning 1-2 warpins more. Just do a proxi pylon and kill one before his warpgate tech is even done. Maybe theres some korean warpgate zealot that can be a minute earlier then average platinum players, meaning u can cripple 1 plat. player even before he/she can do anything. Against 2 gate.. Dno i dont play protoss much.
Borderline: im 100% sure its doable vs 2 platinum. Platinum simply dont have the execution to pull off builds well. Trust me, even 6 pool of plat and gm is atleast 10sec difference before the lings are even made. E.G:. I never seen a plat create and sent worker to mineral <5 ingame second gametime, platinum probably doesnt even know if its better to create worker or sent to mine is more importanr lol = important seconds. Most pros do this within the very first ingame second. There also a part of game knowledge and with that decisionmaking. 2 plats would make awful decision to whether to attack or not. Do 20 marine win vs 10 marines in 2 bunkers reparing? They wouldnt know. And lastly: multitask is on a whole different level. U cant micro army, build army and chase that 1 banshee thats flying faster then ur marines can walk and shooting at your workers (this is after failed rush attempt).
If after this you still dont believe. Sent me a pm and ill gladly play you
sligihtly related, nontheless, here is a replay of me crushing two bronzies/silvies. mate lagged out at the bery beginning (50 seconds or so) and yes, i had his base to ofc! so me macroing my race and his. but winning with just one race against two is hard as fuck
On April 20 2012 04:23 Eatme wrote: Any metagame 2:2 strat (that even lots of silver players manage to do) should take a pro down since it hits hard early. But the cut off is around there I'd say. My guess is that a pro should be able to take 2 low gold players in a best of 7 if he manages to secure a quick 2base without dying to early pushes. But it would be close. I have myself 1v2:ed quite a few times when playing custom 2:2 on shattered temple but thats was vs quite worthless players. And by 1v2 I mean that my ally sat in his base playing sim city while I attacked and killed the other guys. This is however quite different from a real 1v2 scenario since while my ally didnt do anything he still exists in the game and cripples the mentality of the opponents.
I would never let it even come to a expansion. Each game would be over within the first 4-6min.
Are you gold or silver? I admit that I could be wrong but it's kinda hard to tell since I dont play at either level and cant say for sure what they are capable off.
Back when i was active, I was platinium. I have switched from wc3 so i knew the basics of a rts game (micro/macro). I'm still not convinced that a Pro like Marineking/Idra/Grubby would stand a chance. The difference in units created between a gm and diamond within the first 5 min or so is marginal. Double the marine count that you have after 5min and tell me how long a wall will stand? I say 0 chances. Any pro can prove me wrong (which wont happen I'm afraid)
So you say you are platinum. And a pro has 0,001% chance to beat you 1v2 (your ally same skill). Many pros on this forum already said its quite possible to do. Gogo showmatch? :p if noone wants I can prove you its possible to win. Problem is I havent played nearly 6 months. And that playing zerg might be quit hard vs 2x 6pools. Also im not a pro but i already stated that i won many 1v2 platinum as high master.
Lets say: 1 Z vs 2x 6 pool, I think its stoppable on medium-large maps if zerg goes 6-8pool himself, and get a spinecrawler + few drones more instead of 6lings early. Then build enough lings (spinecrawlers if needed) to stay alive and get speed faster then opponent. Against platinum theres generally huge timing u have speed before 6poolers to kill 1 or both off. Also 1: pretty sure platinum would be clueless how to play when they arrive at zerg base and see a spine, few lings and 8-10drones). Most often then not theyll suicide the lings on the spine and ull kill them 1 by 1 with micro when ur lingspeed finishes earlier. Even if they dont do that, if you know theyr both going 6 pool just get an early spine some lings speedtech and beat one in the small window.
Lets say 1 T vs 2x 4-6rax. build wall, build bunkers and atleast 4rax. Get 1 banshee and win. I dont know if u ever played against a well microed banshee as terran but im 100% sure a pro can kill a weak eco platinum with only 1 banshee after stopping the rush with few bunkers+scv. As high master ive lost on several occasions vs 1 banshee because i couldnt keep up with his hit-run on workers. Multitasked banshee will destroy any platinum. They cant have anything else then marines after they comitted.
Lets say 1 P vs 2x 2gate or 2x 4gate. This one is most tricky and hardest of all. Forcefield ramp all the time while teching up and hopefully catch em off-guard? Pretty hard. Luckily i dont play Protoss. Oh wait:, pretty sure a well executed 4gate is atleast 20sec earlier then a platinum 4gate. Maybe even as much as a 40secs or so. Meaning 1-2 warpins more. Just do a proxi pylon and kill one before his warpgate tech is even done. Maybe theres some korean warpgate zealot that can be a minute earlier then average platinum players, meaning u can cripple 1 plat. player even before he/she can do anything. Against 2 gate.. Dno i dont play protoss much.
Borderline: im 100% sure its doable vs 2 platinum. Platinum simply dont have the execution to pull off builds well. Trust me, even 6 pool of plat and gm is atleast 10sec difference before the lings are even made. E.G:. I never seen a plat create and sent worker to mineral <5 ingame second gametime, platinum probably doesnt even know if its better to create worker or sent to mine is more importanr lol = important seconds. Most pros do this within the very first ingame second. There also a part of game knowledge and with that decisionmaking. 2 plats would make awful decision to whether to attack or not. Do 20 marine win vs 10 marines in 2 bunkers reparing? They wouldnt know. And lastly: multitask is on a whole different level. U cant micro army, build army and chase that 1 banshee thats flying faster then ur marines can walk and shooting at your workers (this is after failed rush attempt).
If after this you still dont believe. Sent me a pm and ill gladly play you
2 top level platinum players can copy a pro build within 1 or 2 food easily by the 8 minute mark, and having two of them on you... that's 2x the supply vs you. Maybe, MAYBE if you get a really nice hard counter (if both players go mass marine/zergling and you go baneling and they fail to scout or something) then you would win. But if they have any sense, there's no chance. Platinum players aren't as bad as they used to be. And by the time you get to diamond, there's just no way.
On April 21 2012 00:56 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Husky and Spanishiwa in the Master vs Caster series. Husky was a mid-diamond player and he teamed up with a very hard CPU... still lost in a macro game.
The problem with that is that Husky and his teammate didn't work together (I remember the hilarious "SCAN PURPLE SCAN!!!")
If Husky was playing with a real person and decided to perhaps do some kind of super aggressive build, he might've had a chance to win.
On April 20 2012 04:14 Felnarion wrote: The pro would beat you at your own game. A zerg, for instance, would likely early pool and do a lot of damage to one of you by simple virtue of out-microing you. From there, they use their superior multitasking to simply beat the other guy. You'd be surprised at the level differences even among masters players, and then pros.
Think about this:
Low masters players are almost consistently beaten 1v1 by high masters players. High masters are are almost always beat by grandmasters. Grandmasters are almost always beaten by the tip-top in grandmasters.
And then there's another level entirely of the "super-pros" that would just demolish. They're almost super human. Think about it. Most of us could never hope to beat even a pro like incontrol. Incontrol would probably beat any one of us almost every single time. But there are players in EG, like idra, who beat incontrol every time (almost). But there's players who beat idra almost everytime too.
The point I'm making is that SC2 has more levels than most people realize. If we're talking about one of these super-pros, yes, I think he could beat two players up to mid-masters. Though I would agree he would have difficulty with specific timings, he would likely aim to cripple one of you early.
I dont think you realize how much of a skill difference there is between the gm and the master... Do you know the skill is almost the same for low gm and high master ? Or high diamond and low master ? You are overestimating them a lot. A super pro like Drg ? He would get his ass raped badly by even 2 High diamond European players. You can bet on it.
If the players know enough to go for a super early all in, they will win, since there is no way 1 player can hold of for example 2x proxy rax from 2 players no matter what he builds early game or how he micros.
If the players are not smart enough to realize that the earlier they attack the stronger they will be, the 'pro gamer' will have a chance depending on how bad the other players are.
Theres a reason why people are in platinum. Many ppl dont understand that the reaso. They are platinum is simply because they dont posses the basics. Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more! Meaning that when they cheese or play straight the timings are so off that once a pro knows whats coming he can easily stop it and abuse the platinum players unknowings of the game.
As me, darkforce and beastyqt and many more are saying. Its possinle to beat 2 platinums. Doenst matter what strat they use, it is possible. People that say it isnt simply do not see the difference between these leaguers or are one of these themselves. I played like 100 1v2s and im certain i won more vs 2plat or lower then i lost. And im not even sub-pro. I can imagine a pro can win vs 2 diamonds now and then (not always ofc) but is def possible. THAT is how much the difference is between pro and diamond. Stop underestimating the gap.
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
I once had the chance to play 2v1 against Vibe, with some random ally from the streamchat. With me being masters and my ally being masters as well, i must say that i was suprised to see how long he managed to hold on (that being 8-9 minutes), but even though he managed to pull of some surprising stuff, the victory was never in his reach. I guess against masters it is not possible, but against diamond i see a big chance of him winning. With that said, Vibe is pro, but he is not of an DRG, MKP or MC calibre, so i think they would always win vs 2 diamonds.
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
I doubt it to be honest. I know the way I play (decent-ish macro, really bad decision making) in high platinum and I well and truly doubt anyone could hold off 2 even halfway decent all ins. Just 2x proxy rax or a sixpool into some other shit would be almost impossible to hold.
Of course it's also really important what map and what race the pro is playing. On a map with a ramp and pro protoss could hold on for quite a while, because of ff alone, but take somthing like tal'darim and the chances go close to zero. Also if the pro is a zerg any early all-in would be really hard to beat. Just take a terran going proxy rax and a toss 2gating and it'll be almost impossible to hold, because it hits so early you can more or less jsut a-move the zealots and marines to win.
If you didn't all-in, that's something else. I think in the midgame and early lategame a pro could win, but even a plat player can get decent army size and upgrades at 14 minutes, even with harass. Basically you either have to all-in early or just expand over the entire map and the pro will be hard pressed to do anything.
@ruiyang: That's bs, it's never 30 seconds. I timed myself against a lot of replays and even at the 8+ minute mark I'm rarely more than 10 seconds behind (without harrassment). And if you harass before a 2gate hits... well props to you, but you still wont' hold anything the second player. Your timing assessments are so off, it's hard to believe anything you say. The difference between plat and pro isn't (largely) the timing of builds; their easy to get down. The big difference is multitasking, but if you have twice as much shit, you can a-move and concentrate on not fucking your macro up.
Oh yeah, I giggled at the 5 min slower 6gate.
And jsut to be clear: I'm high platinum myself, but I only have like 200ish 1v1 wins and around 300ish team league wins.
To those platinum players that say otherwise. Fast reality check. Check your last replay. Check at what timing you start your first drone/scv. I personally have never seen a plat make a worker and sent them within first 5 ingame seconds. Ive been a platinum aswell, as everyone and trust me, there is a HUGE difference in timings. Only by followIng a pro build first 10min u can become a diamond/low master. Even at high master level my builds are never as optimum as pros even in first 10min of game.
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
On April 21 2012 21:16 Jakkerr wrote: There is absolutely no chance at all that a pro can win a 2v1 unless it's bronze players that don't know what they are doing.
Another dutch on the same page. What league are you. Lets play this 1v2
On April 21 2012 21:16 Jakkerr wrote: There is absolutely no chance at all that a pro can win a 2v1 unless it's bronze players that don't know what they are doing.
Another dutch on the same page. What league are you. Lets play this 1v2
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
Could someone platinum please upload a replay showing that they can keep within 5 minutes of a pro 6 gate timing / managing to send their probes in the first 5 seconds (?!) so these extreme exaggerations can stop.
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
Maybe platinum players were that bad when season 1 was running, but the skill level of the leagues has increased significantly in the last year. Platinum is not that terribad anymore. Maybe in low gold you get to see such horribly butchered timings, but a 4 gate in platinum will come maybe 10 seconds late if at all.
The real problem is not floating tons of money while attacking in multiple places or when trying to place emps in a maxed battle, etc.
That atleast is my impression on the eu server.
EDIT: And on topic:
I think that two players that are atleast high plat (like playing regularly and having real builds) can beat 1 pro easily. Double one base timings would be almost impossible to stop. A macro game would be just as bad, as you can force different responses (e.g. high temps and collosus by a pp team), to which the other player can't react at the same time.
The only way to win a 1v2 is if the two players are either horrible in macro or multitasking
its just that its to hard to play vs 2 diamonds its really hard vs 2 masters impossible vs 2 platins and below its doable while 2 platins can still win games
On April 21 2012 21:41 Kyrillion wrote: It's completely impossible if the two players are at least gold.
no me (as mid master) beat 2 players 1 platin 2 gold in 3 games 3 times, gold players cant really compare vs masters who play clever 1vs2 style so for all who say its impossible, it is until they are platin or higher (vs 2 mid platins i did 2-4 lose)
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
Could someone platinum please upload a replay showing that they can keep within 5 minutes of a pro 6 gate timing / managing to send their probes in the first 5 seconds (?!) so these extreme exaggerations can stop.
Im not exaggerating. Few simple tests: If a platinum makes his first worker and sent his workers to mine on pro level and get 4gate on proper timing ill shut up about this. For estimation: - making first worker and sending all 5 workers to mine takes a pro 1-2seconds starcraft seconds to do. - at 0:01-0:02replay time u made ur worker and all five workers are moving to mine - at proper timing ur 4 gate is done and first units are warped (can someone link an optimum 4gate timing of a pro?)
This only takes 5min to do. And dont go doig this 100x and post ur 1/100 attempt at succeeding, because any top master/pro can pull this off consistently. And no, it isnt easy to even follow the first 5min of a BO perfectly, even for a mid master player. Prove me wrong platinums!
On April 20 2012 04:13 AC3 wrote: I've seen HuK hold 2 players worker rush with only his probes.
Yeah didn't they do this on the tl attack (btw what the fuck happened to that show?) with huk and he raped two guys.
Any decent masters player could probably destroy anything from low plat to below no problem. So I guess a pro should be able to 1v2 anything up to atleast mid-high platinum.
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
Maybe platinum players were that bad when season 1 was running, but the skill level of the leagues has increased significantly in the last year. Platinum is not that terribad anymore. Maybe in low gold you get to see such horribly butchered timings, but a 4 gate in platinum will come maybe 10 seconds late if at all.
The real problem is not floating tons of money while attacking in multiple places or when trying to place emps in a maxed battle, etc.
That atleast is my impression on the eu server.
Im not talking about season 1. Back in season 1 i was in top200 ranking worldwide (ladder) now im probably like one of the many many high masters/mid master. I have lots of accounts and even last season when i started anew i could easily get 30-0 before promoted to masters. Never seen a platinum or many of my platinum friends seen do a timing properly. Im not bragging, im saying i suck at sc2 now
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
Could someone platinum please upload a replay showing that they can keep within 5 minutes of a pro 6 gate timing / managing to send their probes in the first 5 seconds (?!) so these extreme exaggerations can stop.
Im not exaggerating. Few simple tests: If a platinum makes his first worker and sent his workers to mine on pro level and get 4gate on proper timing ill shut up about this. For estimation: - making first worker and sending all 5 workers to mine takes a pro 1-2seconds starcraft seconds to do. - at 0:01-0:02replay time u made ur worker and all five workers are moving to mine - at proper timing ur 4 gate is done and first units are warped (can someone link an optimum 4gate timing of a pro?)
This only takes 5min to do. And dont go doig this 100x and post ur 1/100 attempt at succeeding, because any top master/pro can pull this off consistently. And no, it isnt easy to even follow the first 5min of a BO perfectly, even for a mid master player. Prove me wrong platinums!
Why should we provide evidence for your exaggerated claims. Why don't you present your evidence. I could care less what some random dude thinks.
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
Could someone platinum please upload a replay showing that they can keep within 5 minutes of a pro 6 gate timing / managing to send their probes in the first 5 seconds (?!) so these extreme exaggerations can stop.
Im not exaggerating. Few simple tests: If a platinum makes his first worker and sent his workers to mine on pro level and get 4gate on proper timing ill shut up about this. For estimation: - making first worker and sending all 5 workers to mine takes a pro 1-2seconds starcraft seconds to do. - at 0:01-0:02replay time u made ur worker and all five workers are moving to mine - at proper timing ur 4 gate is done and first units are warped (can someone link an optimum 4gate timing of a pro?)
This only takes 5min to do. And dont go doig this 100x and post ur 1/100 attempt at succeeding, because any top master/pro can pull this off consistently. And no, it isnt easy to even follow the first 5min of a BO perfectly, even for a mid master player. Prove me wrong platinums!
Why should we provide evidence for your exaggerated claims. Why don't you present your evidence. I could care less what some random dude thinks.
Well just check a replay of a random pro and a random platinum. First 5 seconds my point is made. Pro makes first worker and sends workers between 00:00-00:02seconds and platinum at 00:05-00:15 seconds. Point proven. Or am i wrong and all my platinum friends dont deserve to be there? I trained many of my friends to masters, and it all starts wih acknowledging ur timings suck. Im even sure nestea has his moments that he thinks his timing shouldv been 30sec earlier. (e.g. Shit this game i shouldve had broodlords 30sec earlier, i was too slow). Because by thinking this way u get better. And because most bad ppl dont think this way they never e out of plat/diamond
On April 21 2012 21:19 ruiyang wrote: To those platinum players that say otherwise. Fast reality check. Check your last replay. Check at what timing you start your first drone/scv. I personally have never seen a plat make a worker and sent them within first 5 ingame seconds. Ive been a platinum aswell, as everyone and trust me, there is a HUGE difference in timings. Only by followIng a pro build first 10min u can become a diamond/low master. Even at high master level my builds are never as optimum as pros even in first 10min of game.
Ok so I'm a mid plat terran. Worker built 0-1 second, 3/3 split done at 3 seconds.
15.30 minutes in I'm at 200/200. 69 workers, 6 medivacs, 7 vikings, 22 marauders, 60 marines, 2/2 upgrades one third done.
Granted, this is not great. It's not even good. But I don't think plat is quite as mind numbingly bad as you seem to think.
On April 21 2012 21:19 ruiyang wrote: To those platinum players that say otherwise. Fast reality check. Check your last replay. Check at what timing you start your first drone/scv. I personally have never seen a plat make a worker and sent them within first 5 ingame seconds. Ive been a platinum aswell, as everyone and trust me, there is a HUGE difference in timings. Only by followIng a pro build first 10min u can become a diamond/low master. Even at high master level my builds are never as optimum as pros even in first 10min of game.
Ok so I'm a mid plat terran. Worker built 0-1 second, 3/3 split done at 3 seconds.
15.30 minutes in I'm at 200/200. 69 workers, 6 medivacs, 7 vikings, 22 marauders, 60 marines, 2/2 upgrades one third done.
Granted, this is not great. It's not even good. But I don't think plat is quite as mind numbingly bad as you seem to think.
Thanks for replying. I have to say, im quite suprised you did that so fast. You pull that off every game? Because so far Ive seen and coached my friends, it always started with a /sigh at the first 5 seconds of a game. Building worker between 0-1sec and splitting within 3 is imo already quite impressive for a plat, even if most ppl think its a small feat or dont see the difference at all.
But the 2nd part, 15.30 is exactly the reason your probably in plat. You can max out MUCH faster. But still, if what you say is true, and thats average for a plat. then mayb I am exaggerating a bit. But tell me honestly, if you look at your replays, do you always start your worker <2seconds or are there times u are taking ~10sec+. Because I still think on average a platinum does buildorders MUCH slower, even if u give them a piece of paper with exact timings (which they will never have/use in plat, otherwise they wouldnt be there)
On April 21 2012 21:19 ruiyang wrote: To those platinum players that say otherwise. Fast reality check. Check your last replay. Check at what timing you start your first drone/scv. I personally have never seen a plat make a worker and sent them within first 5 ingame seconds. Ive been a platinum aswell, as everyone and trust me, there is a HUGE difference in timings. Only by followIng a pro build first 10min u can become a diamond/low master. Even at high master level my builds are never as optimum as pros even in first 10min of game.
Ok so I'm a mid plat terran. Worker built 0-1 second, 3/3 split done at 3 seconds.
15.30 minutes in I'm at 200/200. 69 workers, 6 medivacs, 7 vikings, 22 marauders, 60 marines, 2/2 upgrades one third done.
Granted, this is not great. It's not even good. But I don't think plat is quite as mind numbingly bad as you seem to think.
Thanks for replying. I have to say, im quite suprised you did that so fast. You pull that off every game? Because so far Ive seen and coached my friends, it always started with a /sigh at the first 5 seconds of a game. Building worker between 0-1sec and splitting within 3 is imo already quite impressive for a plat, even if most ppl think its a small feat or dont see the difference at all.
But the 2nd part, 15.30 is exactly the reason your probably in plat. You can max out MUCH faster. But still, if what you say is true, and thats average for a plat. then mayb I am exaggerating a bit. But tell me honestly, if you look at your replays, do you always start your worker <2seconds or are there times u are taking ~10sec+. Because I still think on average a platinum does buildorders MUCH slower, even if u give them a piece of paper with exact timings (which they will never have/use in plat, otherwise they wouldnt be there)
Every TvP, unless there's a lot of early agression going on. My record for maxing out with this comp is probably 15 mins or so. I'm in plat because my TvZ is horrible 90% wr in tvp and like 30% tvz.
Edit: I definetly think a top player could beat two of me though. Either through heavy turtle play or with agressive harassing. Maybe not a zerg though.
On April 21 2012 20:00 ruiyang wrote: Other words, a platinum 2gate is like 30sec slower than a grandmast 2gate. A platinum 4gate is like 1min slower then a gm 4gate. A platinum 6gate is like 5min slower. Probably even more!
No, just no. I don't think you understand how much time in game 5 minutes really is. Sure they are slower but nowhere near the times you are saying. Even platinum players are capable of constant probe/scv/drone production and hitting decent timings.
This. Being a platinum player myself, I wouldn't be too worried about my warpgate timing and probe production, I'd be more worried about my micro and warping in stuff while in combat and not starting to float/get supplycapped while fighting.
This is why ur platinum (?) u dont see urself that ur timings are off. Im not sayin this to bash platinim or lower players but because all my friends share the same problem. They are unwilling to see what they are really doing wrong. The reason why im high master is not because of my micro, but because i have proper timings and can multitask. Also you are dutch, what league are u? This theorycrafting is anoyying me, lets play 1v2 and ill break this thread or affirm ir
Could someone platinum please upload a replay showing that they can keep within 5 minutes of a pro 6 gate timing / managing to send their probes in the first 5 seconds (?!) so these extreme exaggerations can stop.
Im not exaggerating. Few simple tests: If a platinum makes his first worker and sent his workers to mine on pro level and get 4gate on proper timing ill shut up about this. For estimation: - making first worker and sending all 5 workers to mine takes a pro 1-2seconds starcraft seconds to do. - at 0:01-0:02replay time u made ur worker and all five workers are moving to mine - at proper timing ur 4 gate is done and first units are warped (can someone link an optimum 4gate timing of a pro?)
This only takes 5min to do. And dont go doig this 100x and post ur 1/100 attempt at succeeding, because any top master/pro can pull this off consistently. And no, it isnt easy to even follow the first 5min of a BO perfectly, even for a mid master player. Prove me wrong platinums!
Why should we provide evidence for your exaggerated claims. Why don't you present your evidence. I could care less what some random dude thinks.
Well just check a replay of a random pro and a random platinum. First 5 seconds my point is made. Pro makes first worker and sends workers between 00:00-00:02seconds and platinum at 00:05-00:15 seconds. Point proven. Or am i wrong and all my platinum friends dont deserve to be there? I trained many of my friends to masters, and it all starts wih acknowledging ur timings suck. Im even sure nestea has his moments that he thinks his timing shouldv been 30sec earlier. (e.g. Shit this game i shouldve had broodlords 30sec earlier, i was too slow). Because by thinking this way u get better. And because most bad ppl dont think this way they never e out of plat/diamond
Really? Platinum players make and send first worker between 5 and 15 seconds into the game? Decided to look up 2 replays of my girlfriend who is mid silver, at 5 seconds into the game, all workers were at the mineral patches, and the worker had been in production 3 and 4 'seconds' respectivly. This was even in a team game where she is less likely to 'tryhard'.
She has also done different things like maxing to 200/200 of 2 bases (with upgrades) which she for example did within like 15~minutes? Would a pro be able to do it faster than her, sure. But would a pro be more than 1-2 minutes? I doubt it. This being a silver player, not a platinum player. An extremely simple tactic like a proxy 2 rax or something any silver and up player would be able to pull off reasonably decent if they have tried it out a few times before. Obviously a few games might happen where they make mistakes (e.g forget a depot or something) But the norm will not as far behind a pro player as some people seem to think.
Edit: tried the 'macro challenge' again for the heck of it, me maxing at like 13:30 and my girlfriend at like 15:00, me off marine\marrauder and she off marine marrauder medivac with a few upgrades. (This being done with only being allowed to take 1 expansion.) I am probably at around gold level myself though have not played 1v1\ladder in a long long time. And terran is not my main race. I am sure a platinum player would be able to do this a decent chunk better again, and after that,a pro will be able to maybe shave of a few seconds\half a minute, but not much more more. And this is to max 200/200, not to make 6 gates.
On April 21 2012 22:12 AdrianHealey wrote: I want to say that as a mid plat european times two myself I could beat someone like Idra or whatever.
One part of my 6 pools and drone all in. That should do sufficient amount of damage so the other can just speedling all in with macro hatch. No?
Sounds sufficient. Want to try out some games? Ur belgium, theres another dutch "nicknamed geen" that posted 1 page before that is platinum. I can play every evening between 22:30-02:00 CET (Im dutch)
On April 21 2012 22:12 AdrianHealey wrote: I want to say that as a mid plat european times two myself I could beat someone like Idra or whatever.
One part of my 6 pools and drone all in. That should do sufficient amount of damage so the other can just speedling all in with macro hatch. No?
Sounds sufficient. Want to try out some games? Ur belgium, theres another dutch "nicknamed geen" that posted 1 page before that is platinum. I can play every evening between 22:30-02:00 CET (Im dutch)
I can play tomorrow evening between 22:30 and 02:00 (I have to work tonight.)
On April 21 2012 22:12 AdrianHealey wrote: I want to say that as a mid plat european times two myself I could beat someone like Idra or whatever.
One part of my 6 pools and drone all in. That should do sufficient amount of damage so the other can just speedling all in with macro hatch. No?
Sounds sufficient. Want to try out some games? Ur belgium, theres another dutch "nicknamed geen" that posted 1 page before that is platinum. I can play every evening between 22:30-02:00 CET (Im dutch)
I can play tomorrow evening between 22:30 and 02:00 (I have to work tonight.)
What's your league?
Placement match. Havent played actively around 3?? or more months. But I play a game now and then, or sometimes a few days with friends. My old ACTIVE league (season 4 i think?) was topmaster/low grand master. Used to play for Team Antwerp Aces (belgium team) under nickname Shinigami. Was just a noob trying to be good ^^, but like I said before, in the past I was able to win vs 2 platinum friends most of the time. Ill warm up tonight and play u 2mrw then!
On April 21 2012 22:12 AdrianHealey wrote: I want to say that as a mid plat european times two myself I could beat someone like Idra or whatever.
One part of my 6 pools and drone all in. That should do sufficient amount of damage so the other can just speedling all in with macro hatch. No?
Sounds sufficient. Want to try out some games? Ur belgium, theres another dutch "nicknamed geen" that posted 1 page before that is platinum. I can play every evening between 22:30-02:00 CET (Im dutch)
I can play tomorrow evening between 22:30 and 02:00 (I have to work tonight.)
What's your league?
Placement match. Havent played actively around 3?? or more months. But I play a game now and then, or sometimes a few days with friends. My old ACTIVE league (season 4 i think?) was topmaster/low grand master. Used to play for Team Antwerp Aces (belgium team) under nickname Shinigami. Was just a noob trying to be good ^^, but like I said before, in the past I was able to win vs 2 platinum friends most of the time. Ill warm up tonight and play u 2mrw then!
Sounds cool. So you'll be a terran?
Does the other platinum person need to be zerg as well? Or can we mix races?
The problem is going to be though that I play relatively passive. I play a style that is like 'come at me bro', but doing that style agains ta grandmaster/high master is not going to work, I am afraid. :p
On April 21 2012 22:43 AdrianHealey wrote: The problem is going to be though that I play relatively passive. I play a style that is like 'come at me bro', but doing that style agains ta grandmaster/high master is not going to work, I am afraid. :p
Its ok, I havent played long time. Im probably equal to a rank25 or so Master now. Atleast we'll have some fun and ill probably be able to teach you one or two things after
On April 21 2012 22:12 AdrianHealey wrote: I want to say that as a mid plat european times two myself I could beat someone like Idra or whatever.
One part of my 6 pools and drone all in. That should do sufficient amount of damage so the other can just speedling all in with macro hatch. No?
Sounds sufficient. Want to try out some games? Ur belgium, theres another dutch "nicknamed geen" that posted 1 page before that is platinum. I can play every evening between 22:30-02:00 CET (Im dutch)
I can play tomorrow evening between 22:30 and 02:00 (I have to work tonight.)
What's your league?
Placement match. Havent played actively around 3?? or more months. But I play a game now and then, or sometimes a few days with friends. My old ACTIVE league (season 4 i think?) was topmaster/low grand master. Used to play for Team Antwerp Aces (belgium team) under nickname Shinigami. Was just a noob trying to be good ^^, but like I said before, in the past I was able to win vs 2 platinum friends most of the time. Ill warm up tonight and play u 2mrw then!
Sounds cool. So you'll be a terran?
Does the other platinum person need to be zerg as well? Or can we mix races?
I prefer zerg, but terran is fine as well. You can play mix and any strategy you want. We'll see
P.S. lets stop spamming thread and go to PMs instead.
I am sure me and my friend ( both never passed platinum, we never actually tried to ) with decent BW(both around B 1v1) and WC3 ( won some town event in 2v2 + numerous top100 ladder placements )experience would win 10 out of 10 vs any pro on standart 4 player maps without using verbal communication with rushes( not worker rushes ).
Just out of curiosity ( and im in no way trying to start a sc2/bw debate), what are the chances of a BW pro to win 2v1 in BW? And what rank is the maximum the 2 players can be untill they start winning vs him? I imagine micro has a lot more impact in BW and should give the pro a lot more edge over his opponents if they decide to rush him.
If the opponents understood the bacis of sc2 and have some basic mechanics it should be nearly impossible. 2x 3rax or 2x 4gate.... just not possible to hold - or even 2x SCV rush :D
i 1v2 my friends all the time. They are silver/gold/plat and im high masters. i can beat silver+gold everytime but i can beat plat+gold a lot only with zerg eventhough my main is toss (spines/transfuse so gosu with queen infestor broodlord raping their tier 2 armies). also ive found the best way to win is to do a heavy econ build but quick into mass low tier units for defense with strong mutitasking that keeps them in their base. (ie as zerg fast 3 base into muta ling with spines for defense or 1 gate core double fe into 8 gates into robo warp prisms). but it usually comes done to them not knowing how to react in crisis management. so when another of my friends, also masters, tells them what to do, i can never win.
lol... gotta love how ppl are acting up with serious analysis on what lvls a pro player can win... first of, u cant generalise a league, the range of skill in any league is huge. second off, there is no empirical proofs on how good a any pro player would do in a 1v2 so stop stating facts as if they were true based on ur gut feelings ._.
It was an old dream of the LR threads to see Nestea vs 7 low bronze players. We would call the show "Seven Samurai".
The main problem is we really need legit absolute beginners, who just got out of the Practice League with great difficulty and bad record. (something like 2GD)
If even one of them is actually slightly beginning to understand the game, then it won't work, cause he would command the others to make units and attack early together.
What's average? Plat? Gold? I think on the right 2v2 map, a pro-gamer could take out two gold players who think they understand the game, but the higher the rank of these average players, the less likely our pro-gamer is to win. Obviously.
On April 21 2012 21:19 ruiyang wrote: To those platinum players that say otherwise. Fast reality check. Check your last replay. Check at what timing you start your first drone/scv. I personally have never seen a plat make a worker and sent them within first 5 ingame seconds. Ive been a platinum aswell, as everyone and trust me, there is a HUGE difference in timings. Only by followIng a pro build first 10min u can become a diamond/low master. Even at high master level my builds are never as optimum as pros even in first 10min of game.
at 1 second. every game of my last 15.
And of course we don't play like gm, but hitting a certain timing really isn't fucking hard, when you're not being harassed.
Ok, I'm uploading a replay with a 1 second first scv, 18 second 2nd scv and 70+ food at 80 minutes.
Any pro would just lose against two players who can play a standard macro game (probably high plat low diamond area or maybe lower depending on the region).
The combined army size would constantly at least double the pros at all points in the game, and even amazing micro would be futile.
This should be added to op. This video first got me interested into Sc2 and then this lead me to gsl and then two months later i bought the game. 1 pro vs 3 noobs( they all had some rts experience)
I personally did and won a 1vs3 and a 1vs2 against bronze/gold players, and I'm mid dia. it only depends of the skill of the opponents. Because there is huge range of variety of skills in plat, we can't say for sure that the pro will win or lose, so many different results can come. a pro can have maybe a 30% winrate vs 2 plats. But this pure speculation and I hope we'll never find out (don't want a pro to play a huge sample of games against 2 plat just for the sake of the statistic)
On April 21 2012 23:53 Swagtacular wrote: i 1v2 my friends all the time. They are silver/gold/plat and im high masters. i can beat silver+gold everytime but i can beat plat+gold a lot only with zerg eventhough my main is toss (spines/transfuse so gosu with queen infestor broodlord raping their tier 2 armies). also ive found the best way to win is to do a heavy econ build but quick into mass low tier units for defense with strong mutitasking that keeps them in their base. (ie as zerg fast 3 base into muta ling with spines for defense or 1 gate core double fe into 8 gates into robo warp prisms). but it usually comes done to them not knowing how to react in crisis management. so when another of my friends, also masters, tells them what to do, i can never win.
Do you think of the players you were playing against did some sort of super early cheese (e.g proxy rax\Xpool\proxy 2 gate) that you would be able to hold it off though? As far as i can see it, the later and more chaoitic the game becomes the more a pro has a chance. But so early in the game, there is only so much you can do to get a lead.
but sc2 is significantly easier than sc:bw (multi building select, multi unit select), im almost positive that a top pro in sc1 would destroy two very good sc1 players... say B to B+ level (on iccup standards).
On April 22 2012 13:59 JitnikoVi wrote: slightly off topic,
but sc2 is significantly easier than sc:bw (multi building select, multi unit select), im almost positive that a top pro in sc1 would destroy two very good sc1 players... say B to B+ level (on iccup standards).
Yeah, several people have mentioned this already, and I think it can't be disputed. In bw, micro and multitasking were much bigger factors, I think a pro could absolutely destroy two of me in that game, whereas in sc2 I think 2 of me could absolutely destroy MKP or DRG (and I'm only diamond)
I beat my two silver-gold friends and it wasn't even close. You will win if you get people who are gold or under, above that they understand that you can marine scv rush and win. If you are talking an actual game though, involving more than 1 base all in or cheese, the pro probably has a good chance of winning.
Start by having a pro beat two players in 2v2 when his ally quits right away. This could easily be an OTR challenge.
A pro could very likely take two gold or lower players on a map like TDA or Atlantis Spaceship, but they could likely be fed a build that would win everytime.
I'd say if you just took 2 dia or lower players and threw them into a game vs a pro, they'd lose the first few games before they figured out a good rush timing and how to work well together. The first few times they might either try to macro or hit different rush timings. Probably masters too tbh, I'm pretty bad and I'm masters. I've 1v2 my roommates before (plat and gold) and won when I was diamond.
And just as a side note, I know games I've played aren't indicative of everything but I was playing around on my friends account and matching plats on NA ladder (I was randoming) and beat a toss by going 2 base ultralisk, and a toss by rushing one base mothership. The account started in bronze but I went 20-0 so these were the final few games (matching plats). And I don't even main either of those two races, or am I good at my main (I'm low masters T). So I'd say plat is still pretty terrible (I'm also terrible, just on average plat is worse). Sure plat might be a little better then earlier, but so is every other league.
On April 22 2012 16:23 Pwere wrote: Start by having a pro beat two players in 2v2 when his ally quits right away. This could easily be an OTR challenge.
A pro could very likely take two gold or lower players on a map like TDA or Atlantis Spaceship, but they could likely be fed a build that would win everytime.
This is actually really easy. I've beaten dual diamonds on NA in this way. You still start with 2 bases per team and the right amount of workers. Sure, you need better macro, but you're teamwork is going to be a lot better.
Ok, so I tried to upload my replay to sc2replayed.com, but nothing is happening. Does anyone know a good site to upload replays? never done this before <.<
Once I get a site, I'll show off some sick platinum macro skills!
On April 23 2012 19:24 Zoesan wrote: Ok, so I tried to upload my replay to sc2replayed.com, but nothing is happening. Does anyone know a good site to upload replays? never done this before <.<
Once I get a site, I'll show off some sick platinum macro skills!
Assuming its one base per player? Simply put, if it goes to a macro game I reckon the pro would have it unless he just lets them mass up a 400/400 army. At least that'd be the case if he's playing Terran due to the defensive advantages offered by bunkers, complete wall-offs and siege tanks; I dunno about other races, its a bit more iffy there.
However against two people who have some idea of the game, are cooperating and are looking to make the most of their advantage with a quick win I just can't see it happening. I don't care how good you are, its not hard for someone to get a solid all-in strategy down to a decent timing. And holding a double-4gate by yourself isn't going to happen, likewise a double 6 or 7-pool, again for a double marine/SCV all-in (actually I think I've just given my subconscious fuel for future nightmares with that one).
Pros are better, much better, but translating that skill advantage to a win against two opponents who have some idea of what they're doing is an entirely different matter.
On April 20 2012 04:14 Felnarion wrote: The pro would beat you at your own game. A zerg, for instance, would likely early pool and do a lot of damage to one of you by simple virtue of out-microing you. From there, they use their superior multitasking to simply beat the other guy. You'd be surprised at the level differences even among masters players, and then pros.
Think about this:
Low masters players are almost consistently beaten 1v1 by high masters players. High masters are are almost always beat by grandmasters. Grandmasters are almost always beaten by the tip-top in grandmasters.
And then there's another level entirely of the "super-pros" that would just demolish. They're almost super human. Think about it. Most of us could never hope to beat even a pro like incontrol. Incontrol would probably beat any one of us almost every single time. But there are players in EG, like idra, who beat incontrol every time (almost). But there's players who beat idra almost everytime too.
The point I'm making is that SC2 has more levels than most people realize. If we're talking about one of these super-pros, yes, I think he could beat two players up to mid-masters. Though I would agree he would have difficulty with specific timings, he would likely aim to cripple one of you early.
I don't know, I'm high masters and I think I could most certainly take at least 2-3 games off of incontrol if we played 10.
Sorry if anyone else has already mentioned this, but a while ago I saw a 1v2 showmatch between Whitera and two mid-masters (to the best of my recollection) players - I think all three players were protoss, certainly at least one of his opponents was. It all came down to the thinnest of margins, and I think it's plausible to extrapolate this further - particularly with protoss.
Say you have perfect (or near perfect control) and you're against two players who got into master's with a good grasp of the game, some solid mechanics, but you have that one edge over them. Lanchester combat mechanics dictates something along the lines of "the difference in relative power of two armies is not the difference in absolute numbers, but that difference squared." - For example, if you have 10 marines and the other guy has 5, you don't both lose 5, you'd lose probably 3 (rough example)
Now - to relate this back to the thread in question, if the pro (and I realise this is a big if) gets the smallest of advantages in the early game, through a perfectly placed forcefield or two, some flawless blink micro if that's what they rushed, some excellent positioning or good kiting (there are a myriad of possibilities, this is to name but a few) that edge can translate into a much bigger knock-on "lead" later in the game.
As I remember it (though do correct me - I have in fact been looking for the replays/vods of this showmatch to no avail - it was a while ago) Whitera won through a combination of these factors - winning just one crucial early game engagement with small numbers of units on either side, maximising his unit potential and composition in order to pull ahead by just enough to turn the tide.
So, to answer the ORIGINAL question - yes I think it's possible, but I also concede that 90% of the time you would be able to swamp the opponent. I think a lot of the plausibility for a 1v2 victory against any kind of decent (low masters+) opponents rests on the 1 person being protoss - a few sentries or a zealot in a perfect position can simply negate the vast majority of early game damage from say, zealots or zerglings, or segment the enemy's army into vastly smaller chunks where (as detailed above) the smallest empirical edge can give you a far larger effective lead. Protoss has always been about micro-managing engagements to minimise enemy surface area and engagement strength, and maximise your own damage output - extend those features to a 1v2 engagement where the other two perhaps slip on their mechanics while focussing on micro, and the pro player does not make that mistake and is able to not fall behind, and I think it's entirely plausible
On April 22 2012 16:23 Pwere wrote: Start by having a pro beat two players in 2v2 when his ally quits right away. This could easily be an OTR challenge.
A pro could very likely take two gold or lower players on a map like TDA or Atlantis Spaceship, but they could likely be fed a build that would win everytime.
This is way too easy man. It's actually a legit (and even overpowered) strat in 2v2.
Ok, all these ppl who keep saying it wouldn't work because the pro would die to some sort of cheese, have u read none of this thread? It has been repeatedly pointed out that a not-completely allin early probe rush with flash-level micro would be able to demolish 1 and/or both of the enemies before any kind of rush could work (by the way, worker rushes laugh at 6pools, it looks hilarious to see ur 7 workers enter his base that has 5-6)
On May 17 2012 02:37 ScoSteSal wrote: Ok, all these ppl who keep saying it wouldn't work because the pro would die to some sort of cheese, have u read none of this thread? It has been repeatedly pointed out that a not-completely allin early probe rush with flash-level micro would be able to demolish 1 and/or both of the enemies before any kind of rush could work (by the way, worker rushes laugh at 6pools, it looks hilarious to see ur 7 workers enter his base that has 5-6)
One opponent yes, but then you just die to the second opponent. When you probe rush you will already have 1 to 2 probes/SCV/Drones less. The second opponents builds workers while you barely kill his colleague. Then you can either try to rush this player who has like 3 times more workers than you (simple a move will kill you no matter what micro) or go back mining and be killed two minutes later.
Spanishiwa won a match against one diamond (Husky) and one very hard AI, some time ago. Very hard AI is kind dumb, but spanishiwa was never a top level pro player. I think top level pro players could beat most of diamonds on a 1v2 match. And one master could beat two silvers. And I'm pretty sure 1 pro gamer can beat 4 (or more) bronze players.
Squirtle had to play 1v2 in GSL Off the Record about a week and a half ago. It was a very one-sided game. Sure, he had chopsticks in his hands, but his macro/micro were still solid, and the other team had John the translator (who continuously suicided his army into Squirtle's over and over), but the other player (master's) was able to get a unit advantage and beat down Squirtle's army. Then, John dropped his main, and... lol, it just wasn't pretty.
You can't win a 1v2 if either of the two players are half decent. Two diamond/masters players would have made it even more obvious.
On May 17 2012 02:50 MarcoBrei wrote: Spanishiwa won a match against one diamond (Husky) and one very hard AI, some time ago. Very hard AI is kind dumb, but spanishiwa was never a top level pro player. I think top level pro players could beat most of diamonds on a 1v2 match. And one master could beat two silvers. And I'm pretty sure 1 pro gamer can beat 4 (or more) bronze players.
Yes, but the problem is that a hard AI does not work well in a team. (I hilariously recall Husky saying "SCAN PURPLE SCAN") If they did work together and perhaps did a double cheese, or a worker rush, they might've had it.
On May 17 2012 03:07 vertigo1 wrote: double 4gate would own anyone if they both did it properly
This is exactly what I was thinking. You could replace 4gate with pretty much any really strong early timing/all in x2. It would just be too much to handle, and any diamond player can execute these 1 base all in timings well enough that two of them would just roll over someone I think.
obviously depends on the skill of the players. Any coordinated team of gold+ players who just double all in would never lose and even below that skill a pro probably just doesn't have enough stuff to hold off a double proxy/6 pool no matter the micro.
Well it depends on what you'd consider average. I did this recently against 2 of my bronze friends (my current skill is probably around mid masters) and I won 4 games and lost 1. The one game I lost, they rushed me with all their workers, but I beat them very easily the other 4 games when we made the rule of no worker rushing.
In two of the games, the terran proxy 2 raxed and the protoss proxy 2 gated in my base, and I held it off easily by out microing the zealots and building a bunker at my entrance. In another game, they tried a mid-game allin with MMM and mass chargelot/archon which failed miserably. In the last game they tried proxy 2 raxing me in combination with a DT rush which also failed.
I reckon a pro(zerg) could out micro two zergs who 6 pool by 10 pooling. An all in is a apperant ting in these situations, so it would be wise to do some early attack strat to get one out quick. I beat my two friends in 2on1 first they had handicap later i beat em with no handicap. They went marine all in at 5:30 (really quick with bunkers 2). With 1 spine and two queens its pretty hard to enter at taldarim. So they backed up and i later won me two base they two base.
Even gold players are smart enough to know any 2 all in's even half assedly executed would steamroll most pro's. Pro's would probably beat bronze and silver imo, gold is shady, 2 plat and higher would win because they'd be smart enough to know to just all in for the free win
If those 2 players could execute a 4gate in a non-stupid way, then no way a pro could win the match. the lower players cut probes at 20 then produce off 4 gates, not exactly hard, but no amount of micro could hold such a huge influx of units.
On May 17 2012 02:37 ScoSteSal wrote: Ok, all these ppl who keep saying it wouldn't work because the pro would die to some sort of cheese, have u read none of this thread? It has been repeatedly pointed out that a not-completely allin early probe rush with flash-level micro would be able to demolish 1 and/or both of the enemies before any kind of rush could work (by the way, worker rushes laugh at 6pools, it looks hilarious to see ur 7 workers enter his base that has 5-6)
One opponent yes, but then you just die to the second opponent. When you probe rush you will already have 1 to 2 probes/SCV/Drones less. The second opponents builds workers while you barely kill his colleague. Then you can either try to rush this player who has like 3 times more workers than you (simple a move will kill you no matter what micro) or go back mining and be killed two minutes later.
not what i mean, you can send 3-4 probes & with perfect micro against meh micro those 3-4 probes can take someone apart while you build up more probes & then you can send 3-4 more probes to the other person after you build up about that many
On April 20 2012 04:00 Josh_rakoons wrote: Depends on what level - Diamond / masters, no way. Platinum is shady, probably possible. Gold and under is out of the question.
your wrong. A recent friend of mine that started out in bronze (who is now GM) knocked Bling out of the 1st UK qualifiers for the World championship tournament.
On April 20 2012 04:00 Josh_rakoons wrote: Depends on what level - Diamond / masters, no way. Platinum is shady, probably possible. Gold and under is out of the question.
your wrong. A recent friend of mine that started out in bronze (who is now GM) knocked Bling out of the 1st UK qualifiers for the World championship tournament.
How exactly does that make his point invalid. Someone who is in GM beat someone in GM. The fact that he was once in bronze is irrelevant and that is a 1v1 not 2v1 against a pro which is what the thread is about.
I think a Pro player, if given at least 2 bases with a small choke, and if not double 6 pooled, or 11/11 rax, 2 gate, etc., could beat two players until the master league, at which point it would not be possible.
On May 18 2012 01:24 zmansman17 wrote: I think a Pro player, if given at least 2 bases with a small choke, and if not double 6 pooled, or 11/11 rax, 2 gate, etc., could beat two players until the master league, at which point it would not be possible.
This is too discrete... It's not like it's EZPZ vs everything up to masters and then a switch is flipped to make it impossible. There is likely some general distribution of difficulty that can describe the chances of winning 2v1 as the players' league changes.
If it's possible for me, who is high master on US, to beat one plat player and one diamond player 2v1, then it's definitely possible for a pro to beat two random masters players cause the skill gap is exponential the further up you go.
I'd say once the game goes to maxed armies there's no way for the product to win though, there's just way too much firepower. He'd have to do some sick harass or early attack to cripple them to have any chance.
On May 18 2012 01:24 zmansman17 wrote: I think a Pro player, if given at least 2 bases with a small choke, and if not double 6 pooled, or 11/11 rax, 2 gate, etc., could beat two players until the master league, at which point it would not be possible.
That's not a 2v1 really though. It's a 2v2 essentially because he controls as much economy and production as the 2 players.
The skill isn't the issue here, it's just the difficulty of dealing with twice as much stuff. No matter how cost efficient you are
I've been in a 2v2 where my partner has left and i've controlled his stuff to a victory over people in the same league so it's not really the same thing
On May 18 2012 01:24 zmansman17 wrote: I think a Pro player, if given at least 2 bases with a small choke, and if not double 6 pooled, or 11/11 rax, 2 gate, etc., could beat two players until the master league, at which point it would not be possible.
That's not a 2v1 really though. It's a 2v2 essentially because he controls as much economy and production as the 2 players.
The skill isn't the issue here, it's just the difficulty of dealing with twice as much stuff. No matter how cost efficient you are
I've been in a 2v2 where my partner has left and i've controlled his stuff to a victory over people in the same league so it's not really the same thing
Haha I re-read my post and realized it was written rather poorly.
What I meant to say is that he has 1 base but has potential for another base, which is incorporated within the territory that bottlenecks at a small choke.
It is indeed a general statement, and even speculating on this issue isn't really worth the effort. Of course if the Pro had 2 bases to begin with, he could wipe out any team of whatever race combination from top master players as well.
However, with 1 base and the conditions that I stipulated, I think it's safe to say that he could beat at least Platinum players, if not Diamond.
EPT
90% wr in tvp and like 30% tvz.
