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I see comments like this posted often but to those who dislike them charging for HotS:
1. Starcraft 2 (and general RTS) aren't as popular anymore. Starcraft 2 didn't make them that much money compared to Diablo III (Diablo III reportedly already has double the preorders SC2 had; not only that but most Collector's Edition are sold out while SC2 had tons of Collector's Edition left over).
2. Updates require time from staff and time from staff takes away time from other projects. (Basically updating the game costs money.)
3. Game development costs a lot. Diablo I sold for around $50 (if you take inflation into account, that's even more compared today's video game costs) when it came out. It only took 2 years of development or so to make but sold a lot.
+ Show Spoiler +
Starcraft II, Diablo III, and many other AAA games now take 4-5+ years to make and cost a lot (not only does it take 2-3x longer to make games than before but it requires 2-3x more staff too compared to back then). Some AAA games don't even break even (sometimes they're done just to keep the franchise + company image alive while they simply work on other ways to make profit).
tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>).
Anyway, I watched today's Code S game (Parting vs Polt) and I noticed something - Ball of death vs ball of death and that basically was the entire game. Not much stuff interesting happened (I watch GSL a lot and I do admit that is one of the more boring PvTs but still, the fact that those types of game happen frequently in pro matches is not good):
Compare that to this recent match in BW (TvP Proleague finals, spoilers of course if you haven't watched it):
+ Show Spoiler +
Blizzard need to make games like that (yeah everyone has complained about it already but it's the whole ball of death vs another ball of death issue).
So does fewer resources per base fix that? What happened to that thread anyway >.>?
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Personally I think what Terran needs is:
1) Mech ground to air to replace the Thor. I don't think Thor balls aren't fun for either player and losing your whole mech army because you didn't have enough Thors and Vikings is also pretty shitty. I think a more manauverable, lower supply anti air would be much better. Tbh I don't care if they just make the Thor model smaller and maybe 2 or 3 supply with the same anti air attack but with less damage and smaller splash, a much weaker ground to ground attack and faster speed (like around the same as non stimmed marines maybe).
2) A unit to make mech viable against Protoss. Here I don't have any ideas the big problems I see with mech vs Protoss is chargelots and Immortals. I don't think 1 unit is the answer to this but maybe the battle hellion will help with chargelots.
3) Some kind of splash damage that can be incorporated into a late-game bio army. Personally I hate splash damage if it comes in the form of a unit like the Collossus but atm late-game TvP basically comes down to the Terran trying to kill the Protosses splash damage with enough left over units. If you manage that the bio ball barrels through the remaining army and tries to run through the Protoss before they can build up their splash units again. I find this really boring and would like some kind of unit to spice it up, because right now the Ghost is the only remotely exciting unit in the late-game TvP army. Another splash damage unit seems like an easy answer but I'm sure there are other ways to fix the problem. Maybe removing energy from BCs would help I don't know, but right now, due to warpgate and thew unit compositions its a really boring matchup to watch.
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On April 12 2012 09:12 HaRuHi wrote:
Protoss changes actually sound really great, despite the fact that I seem to be the only one who thinks collosi are the reason why protoss are boring to watch.
Is that a joke or something? Colossus have been one of the most hated units since the alpha..
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I wish they would just add the lurker back instead of the swarm host and vultures with spidermines back instead of hellions while making the standard maps in line with the low resource per base maps that are being made. I just want more space control and all their new ideas seem like they are way less elegant than the previous approaches, games are way better to watch when they're sprawling across the map and areas of attack can be made more or less favourable by doing well.
Plus I really like BW TvT, tank vs tank is great when it's used to slowly suffocate one player by exploiting weaknesses in their line, but at the moment marines mess the matchup up by being too fast at movement and shooting down medivacs while being super super vulnerable to tank fire. That's why goliaths fitted the matchup so well in BW because they had janky AI and slower movement speed that meant you had to think about where to put them at all times while not only being powerful at warding off attacks without being too strong, while also being able to take hits during pushes if need be.
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On April 12 2012 09:29 Goldfish wrote:
tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>).
If this is true then I am really worried. Are RTS games dying? We should love blizzard to put so much effort in sc2 imo. Where do you find such a balanced RTS games these days?
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Still not hearing about the carriers being put back in! Comon blizzard!
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On April 12 2012 09:29 Goldfish wrote:I see comments like this posted often but to those who dislike them charging for HotS: 1. Starcraft 2 (and general RTS) aren't as popular anymore. Starcraft 2 didn't make them that much money compared to Diablo III (Diablo III reportedly already has double the preorders SC2 had; not only that but most Collector's Edition are sold out while SC2 had tons of Collector's Edition left over). 2. Updates require time from staff and time from staff takes away time from other projects. (Basically updating the game costs money.) 3. Game development costs a lot. Diablo I sold for around $50 (if you take inflation into account, that's even more compared today's video game costs) when it came out. It only took 2 years of development or so to make but sold a lot. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ONawdwSMk Starcraft II, Diablo III, and many other AAA games now take 4-5+ years to make and cost a lot (not only does it take 2-3x longer to make games than before but it requires 2-3x more staff too compared to back then). Some AAA games don't even break even (sometimes they're done just to keep the franchise + company image alive while they simply work on other ways to make profit). tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>). Anyway, I watched today's Code S game (Parting vs Polt) and I noticed something - Ball of death vs ball of death and that basically was the entire game. Not much stuff interesting happened (I watch GSL a lot and I do admit that is one of the more boring PvTs but still, the fact that those types of game happen frequently in pro matches is not good): Compare that to this recent match in BW (TvP Proleague finals, spoilers of course if you haven't watched it):+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrlTHtF0BY Blizzard need to make games like that (yeah everyone has complained about it already but it's the whole ball of death vs another ball of death issue). So does fewer resources per base fix that? What happened to that thread anyway >.>?
You mean... Blizzard didn't make as much money in game sales. Sure, that's true. Do you think they're not making money doing this whole... eSports thing?
I'm not sure how you could call some of the recent pro level TvP games boring. If you're saying that you wish there was a lot more meta gaming and crazy shit going on.. well... these guys were playing conservative/standard builds for a reason. Not to mention, Polt is infamous for running the same strat for a long time. Put him in a Bo5 and you'll see something diffferent happen. I'm not sure why you expect the greatest games in history after 2 years of competitive play.
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These threads are great because they show how terrible the game would be if it was "design by community"...Blizzard always delivers an amazing product and forum whiners always deliver in kind with an entitlement complex wearing nostalgia blinders
be happy you got an update at all
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On April 12 2012 09:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:29 Goldfish wrote:
tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>). If this is true then I am really worried. Are RTS games dying? We should love blizzard to put so much effort in sc2 imo. Where do you find such a balanced RTS games these days?
SC2 sold over 4 million copies within 6 months. RTS games aren't as popular as they used to be but SC is fine.
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On April 12 2012 09:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:29 Goldfish wrote:
tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>). If this is true then I am really worried. Are RTS games dying? We should love blizzard to put so much effort in sc2 imo. Where do you find such a balanced RTS games these days?
RTS games haven't been very popular in the west for about a decade. FPS games are extremely popular here in the US because anyone with hands and a face can play them. They are extremely intuitive and you only need to focus on one thing.
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On April 12 2012 09:42 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:33 Snowbear wrote:On April 12 2012 09:29 Goldfish wrote:
tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>). If this is true then I am really worried. Are RTS games dying? We should love blizzard to put so much effort in sc2 imo. Where do you find such a balanced RTS games these days? RTS games haven't been very popular in the west for about a decade. FPS games are extremely popular here in the US because anyone with hands and a face can play them. They are extremely intuitive and you only need to focus on one thing.
Also you need to keep in mind that most rts games in the past few years have been fucking abysmal. What was the last really good rts to come out? Supreme Commander? Sins?
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so glad they are keeping the overseer and changing the viper to gain mana from minerals, pretty cool idea. They should just give it consume and let it eat overlords only or something since it flies. I hope they keep the warhound because I actually like the idea of it being only strong against mech but also very good against muta.
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On April 12 2012 09:46 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:42 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 09:33 Snowbear wrote:On April 12 2012 09:29 Goldfish wrote:
tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>). If this is true then I am really worried. Are RTS games dying? We should love blizzard to put so much effort in sc2 imo. Where do you find such a balanced RTS games these days? RTS games haven't been very popular in the west for about a decade. FPS games are extremely popular here in the US because anyone with hands and a face can play them. They are extremely intuitive and you only need to focus on one thing. Also you need to keep in mind that most rts games in the past few years have been fucking abysmal. What was the last really good rts to come out? Supreme Commander? Sins?
Why would you consider those games good? Blizzard is the only maker of quality RTS in the world. I'm a bit pessimistic when it comes to games though, there are very few quality games that exist in my honest opinion. I wish game review companies took more of approach like me, instead of giving every other game a 10/10 even though it's only going to last half a year, or two playthroughs at the very best.
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On April 12 2012 09:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:29 Goldfish wrote:
tl;dr: Everyone should give Blizzard a break with SC2 and their incentives to make more $$ out of it. The fact is that RTS (SC2) do not sell well or make as much money as they used to. Other game genre sell way more (like FPS or MOBA), and it's hard to compete with those types of game with an RTS. I applaud Blizzard for not ditching Starcraft II or RTS in general to focus on the more popular game genres such as FPS or free to play games (actually they already are trying to but at least they didn't can the entire SC2 team to have them work on an FPS or free to play game >.>). If this is true then I am really worried. Are RTS games dying? We should love blizzard to put so much effort in sc2 imo. Where do you find such a balanced RTS games these days?
Yeah sadly. You may have noticed that fewer people play ladder. Now this isn't because of people being tired of SC2 (okay it is but not all of it is from people getting tired of SC2). From Season 1 to Season 2, the player base dropped significantly (that was only a few months after SC2 was released, so that means the blame can't be because of people being tired of SC2). The problem was that people got into the game because of the hype (and there was tons of hype) and simply found that RTS wasn't their type of game (hence the player drop from Season 1 to 2, and even more from Season 2 to 3, despite the fact it was still so early in SC2's life). *Standard RTS games just aren't as popular or as fun to play as other game genres.
SC2 is the only major AAA *standard RTS game to be released recently and it's also the only RTS to still be played that was released recently (keyword recently, yes WC3 and SC1 are still being played but those weren't recent).
*"Standard RTS" excludes turn based games (like Civilization since they're turned based of course >.>) and only includes games where you have workers, mine for resources, build stuff, amass an army, etc or something similar. Company of Heroes for example isn't really a standard RTS (it doesn't have any resource mining or structure building, and I don't think it's really played competitively), so games like those I wouldn't count as a standard RTS.
There are RTS still being made but they have consistently been outsold by games of other genres (FPS, RPGs, fighting games, etc).
RTS just doesn't seem to have that type of magnet or longevity appeal as MOBA, FPS, or RPG games).
The problem is that RTS's main source of fun comes from if you play it competitively (trying to get better). If you play an RTS (like SC2) for casual fun, that type of "casual fun" is outdone by other genres that do "casual fun" better (RPG, FPS, and I'd say even fighting games too).
("Casual fun" simply being playing the game non-competitively or for relaxation.)
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Hope they make some headway in regards to Mech TvP... and they definitely need some form of reliable AA from factory.
That extremely long range missile launcher sounds lol to me... what range? 14+? 20? Sounds like it might add to the problem than solve it.
The protoss changes kinda expected. Replicant sounded way too gimmicky. The nexus mass recall worries me, doesnt it take away any late game positional advantage that the enemy gets over the Protoss?. Mess up your flank once and you can warp back home and try again... sounds like its gonna frustrate people.
Zerg ideas sound good, interested in this creeep highway for the nydus, since nydus are so underused by Zerg. Overseer has grown on me, that unit I like. Wished they said more about the Zerg changes.
Feels like they are running out of creative ideas in regards to the carrier replacement?
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They need a map control unit for each race, not just Zerg (swarm host).
Terran has tanks but they need a well-designed version of shredders (even if it's just spider mines) and toss needs something like the reaver to hold bases late game. (don't say templar, they don't auto-fire so you can't use them to defend multiple bases at once.)
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I've thought about the changes for awhile and here are my detailed opinions (cross-posted from Reddit thread):
Regarding Terran:
- Warhound is fine personally. It doesn't need to be different, it just needs to make Mech more mobile and more viable vs Protoss and Zerg. Having a cheaper, more massable Thor + battle hellion kinda solves that. Meching Terrans just need some way to deal with late game Broodlord transitions and hopefully a cheaper Thor helps.
- Shredder was not really necessary anyway. Good removal.
- Missile unit could be interesting, but if it's only meant to counter siege tanks and is worthless in TvZ or TvP, it's just an uninspired addition. Perhaps if can be used to hit Colossi and Broodlords as well. Also siege lines make TvT interesting, don't know why there's a need to change it.
- Anti air spider mine sounds a little bit weird. I don't see why they're necessary as massing Thors seem to deal with mutas well enough (at least recently). Problem meching Terrans face these days are Brood Lord switches, and spider mines don't really seem to be an ideal choice to counter them.
Regarding Protoss:
- I absolutely despised the Replicant. It was the dumbest unit design ever. Good riddance.
- Tempest now basically does what the Carrier does. Please bring back the Carrier and use the Tempest for something else. Maybe a melee tanky anti-air unit to counter Corruptors or something?
- Mass recall on Nexus was and still is a horrible idea.
Zerg:
- I'm liking all the changes with Zergs so far. They've been receiving the most buffs, so hopefully there'll be a way to balance them though.
- Also there needs to be a building to build the Viper. I think just getting it off plain Lair tech makes it a little bit too imba. I like the mineral eating to recover energy. It's interesting, although it's difficult to use them midway through battle.
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It's not that RTS genre is on a decline IMO. If they made SC2 better more people would buy/play it. Simple as that. Make awesome game and no matter what genre it is, it's gonna be successful.
I'm just amazed how many people are still talking about this nostalgia thing, when it's backed up by evidence. People are blindly defending Blizzard. They are making moves backwards not forward. Not only pure game aspects are bad, but even social ones.
And I also think this whole esports bubble is smaller than we all think, sure some people are making money of off that. LoL soon is probably gonna be much more successful than SC2 will ever be. People are complaining about SC2 community, but if only they listened to players and gave us what we want, they could make so much more money. If it keeps going like this someone should make BW 1.6 ...
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this thread reminds me that I'm glad Blizzard don't really listen to the community because the game would get destroyed.
Despite all the haters and whiners the game is absolutely dominating esports and getting bigger by the day. They are obviously doing something right, as we are all still playing 
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EPT
