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On April 12 2012 08:59 RogerX wrote:To be honest, I was kind of excited for the Shredder... It felt like it opened a huge window of opportunity for the Terran players, however I guess the intense defense mechanism possibilites far outweighted new and unique strategies. Quite a shame, I hate turtles 
The shredder was terrible. Trust me. It was a horrible design, even 1 stalker/marine/roach could kill it easily, or it was overwhelmed easily, it was in no way anywhere near what a spider mine is.
I know this from experience playing some HOTS custom map before. It was an utterly useless unit, and I knew it would be scrapped. SC2 currently is too fast paced for a visible stationary thing like the shredder that has low range to ever work. All deathballs just simply killed these in less than a split second lol.
Terran has the raven for lategame...as well as ghosts...but they nerfed ghosts, so really the raven is something Terran has but HSM needs to be made more accessible by tweaking either the nrg to 100, or to 75 and removing the energy upgrade like they did with templar. That would be ideal. Reapers also are utterly pointless 95% of the time, they should finish WoL before they start trying to add in random HOTS terran units.
They did not address mech at all with this update, they actually are saying they want mech to die in TvT with this new siege unit which is hilarious. They also have not addressed lategame TvZ/TvP problems right now, chargelots / broodlord/infestor/corruptor are currently a huge problem for Terran in lategame and they have not tweaked the raven at all in accordance, especially after the ghost nerf.
TBH, I thought they were going to nerf warp-in by now so that protoss offensive all-ins are not easy to do and you'd instead have to make a warp prism, but looks like they are going to try to make HOTS the cure all for WoL problems.
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Thank god for the overseer staying in.
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On April 12 2012 08:50 Dingobloo wrote:
They're keeping the oracle despite it being the worst harass unit in the history of the game because it misses out on the #1 thing that every good harassment unit has, which is the ability to swing back around and defend. It also adds additional spell casters to Protoss air in order to be effective, instead of a mutalisk which you box and right click on static defense to kill it, then right click all your probes to kill them you now have to freeze the static defense with an oracle, then pick up individual workers with graviton beam, and if you add a voidray it becomes even worse.
Think of pheonix + oracle opening in PvZ. Zergs counter to stargate = droning, and oracle can re-counter that. Zergs will be very frustrated. Protect oracles with pheonixes around the back of mineral line and constantly deny mining. I think it'll be fun. Of course it all depens on the unit stats of the oracle (speed, energy pool, etc.) but it definitely adds another strat to stargate opening.
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On April 12 2012 09:02 lysergic wrote:
So the viper is like a flying late-game Huk probe? (Prevents a mineral patch from being mined).
Don't tell Huk that. He might switch 
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I really was looking forward to something akin to a shredder - a spider mine. The one thing I really want to see is spider mines on hellions, but it would be at armory tech instead of immediately at tech lab to encourage meching and because spider mines would be really strong against z in the early game.
The warhound is still iffy just because it feels like a more expensive marauder that can shoot up
I'm still hoping that protoss gets fixes for the carrier more than anything though
I also hope that the viper isn't completely broken upon release because if it can abduct massives - holy shit zvp is going to be really imbalanced
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On April 12 2012 08:56 stormfoxSC wrote:
Blizzard doesn't like how the Warhound is essentially a mini-thor, but that's exactly what's needed IMO, if Blizzard wants to open more strategic options for Terran. Right now there's a glaring hole in mech AA, due to the extreme cost and slow AA attack of the Thor, making it incredibly difficult to perform mech-based strategies. You're going either bio or bio-mech in WoL right now, and while players are trying (and sometimes succeeding, but not often) to do mech strategies, it simply is far too difficult to pull off in comparison.
Being able to get out more AA units allows the AA to become more stable, rather than relying on a rather gimmicky and tiny AoE radius and hoping the opponent does something silly like clump all his air units into a tiny ball. :\ Also, air spider mines sound kinda silly. Can't we get something for the ground instead (not even spider mines necessarily, just something), so we can actually defend against flanks vs. our mech army? Addressing the wrong problem with that one, IMO. All we really need for factory is:
1.) flank defence
2.) at least semi-massable AA units at reasonable cost/supply
Solve those two problems, and you've fixed Terran Factory tech. Obviously SC1 took care of those items with the spider mine and the goliath; I leave it to Blizzard to come up with creative solutions for SC2. ^o^
One of the better posts regarding terran, completely agree with you my friend  Lets hope it happens!
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Agree that shredder was a bad design. It's not very micro-able, and since it can't be massed (not functional within friendly units) it can only be OP or useless.
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i wonder if this means that they're done patching wol
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Shredder should be kept, but with lower attack and as a temporary tower called down by the raven, orbital, or planetary. They need to get a more reliable mech unit. Zerg is getting too much stuff in my opinion, there is no need for energy from minerals, attacking nydus worms, etc. They should keep the overseet but modify its cost/energycost/spells, modify fungal or cloud, and they would be almost golden. I am though intrigued by nydus worms that help spread creep. If they made a mapwide sound for it, made it temporary, and cost money, it would keep enemies on their toes as to watch out for a zerg attack (or a zerg retreat).
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This post made me worry.
It seems as if they run out of ideas, yet I don't think much twisting is nessecary to improve on WoL and make it more interresting without ruinning its core balance.
I'd like to see a Terran armory upgrade to reduce reapers costs and buildtime, to give them viability past early game.
I know Sc2 isn't Sc1, but why, why not use the most awesome and convinient unit for map controll ever? Why not bring back spidermines?
Protoss changes actually sound really great, despite the fact that I seem to be the only one who thinks collosi are the reason why protoss are boring to watch.
Zerg will get another unit that just has no zerg feeling for me and just looks wrong, the swarmlord. really? Again, why no Lurkers? Really, I have understood that sc2 will never be sc1 and I think sc2 is a great game on its own, faster with very unique, fluent sort of dance micro, but just from the feel, lurkers were brilliant.+ Show Spoiler + (If you wonder, the other unit is the roach)
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On April 12 2012 09:10 thrawn2112 wrote:
i wonder if this means that they're done patching wol
No, they're planning 1.5 patch.
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Nice to hear some updates on HotS after so long.
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On April 12 2012 09:13 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:10 thrawn2112 wrote:
i wonder if this means that they're done patching wol No, they're planning 1.5 patch.
yeah but i dont think its a balance patch unless i've missed something
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I wish that if they are planning to keep the Overseer they would reconsider the model. The overlord simply looks cooler than its 'sequel'.
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How to sort out the tank issue in TvT: change thor strike cannon to cooldown, increase range and price of upgrade and cooldown so that it has the same range as a tank in siege mode, this way in late-game you can prepare to break tank lines by getting 3-5 thors and being able to pick at the edges of big tank lines as well as crushing through smaller ones.
Wish the shredder would stay but nerfed, i think the idea of it killing workers is not very feasible until the very late game, which just forces the other races to get detection at their expos
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Really sounds like they have no idea what they are doing. Also the idea that protoss can just move around the map and not be punished is really dumb and doesn't reward smart decision making.
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This late in the stage and they are still completely removing units and looking to make new ones, guys HOTS is not gonna come for awhile.
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On April 12 2012 09:18 GeNeSiDe wrote:
How to sort out the tank issue in TvT: change thor strike cannon to cooldown, increase range and price of upgrade and cooldown so that it has the same range as a tank in siege mode, this way in late-game you can prepare to break tank lines by getting 3-5 thors and being able to pick at the edges of big tank lines as well as crushing through smaller ones.
Wish the shredder would stay but nerfed, i think the idea of it killing workers is not very feasible until the very late game, which just forces the other races to get detection at their expos
You do realize increasing the range to the siege range of the 250mm strike cannon is unbelievably broken? You have a 13 range ability to do 500 damage + stun and nothing can hit your Thor from that range (because the tanks which can are all stunned)?
There's nothing wrong with late game mech TvT. Let it transition into an air battle.
For what it's worth, this missile launcher unit isn't too bad an idea, but if it's only meant to counter tanks, then it doesn't really add any dynamics to the game.
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On April 12 2012 07:11 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 07:06 Tump wrote:On April 12 2012 06:57 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Please for the love of all that is holy do not continue with the Oracle.
The last thing Protoss needs is a "harass" unit that can't kill workers. Because proxy warpin Zealots/Dark Templar aren't enough? Or Warp Prisms to ferry in Zealots/Stalkers/High Templar/Dark Templar/Immortals/Archons? Or Colossus to abuse cliffs like the natural on Tal'darim? or Blink Stalkers/Phoenix/Void Rays? Just not quite enough worker killing units huh? You're in over your head. The Oracle is a cool unit with a lot of potential. ...Lol? Sounds like you're in over your head. I don't even think half those strategies exist in <diamond. Please don't make someone list why you're wrong.
What? I didn't even list a strategy. All these units are used to harass at the highest level. Maybe you should stop spending so much time being terrible and more time watching some tournaments. They have all been used by top players in serious games.
On April 12 2012 07:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 07:06 Tump wrote:On April 12 2012 06:57 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Please for the love of all that is holy do not continue with the Oracle.
The last thing Protoss needs is a "harass" unit that can't kill workers. Because proxy warpin Zealots/Dark Templar aren't enough? Or Warp Prisms to ferry in Zealots/Stalkers/High Templar/Dark Templar/Immortals/Archons? Or Colossus to abuse cliffs to snipe workers like the natural on Tal'darim? Or units like Blink Stalkers/Phoenix/Void Rays? Just not quite enough worker killing units huh? You're in over your head. The Oracle is a cool unit with a lot of potential. Did you notice how almost everything you listed needed another factor to become "harassment"? By your list EVERY unit in the game is a harassment unit. Obviously the Thor is a good harassment unit because you can put it in a Medivac and drop it to kill workers. Obviously the Ultralisk is a good harassment unit because it can come out of a Nydus worm and splash damage workers. The whole idea of a harassment unit is that it's effective by itself.
I guess Marine/Marauder drops are terrible harassment because they require Medivacs. LOL.
You don't even need proxy pylons. With good map control (not letting your enemy control Xel'naga watch towers), you can easily run Zealots into an expansion's mineral line. This is even easier with DTs. But yes, a 100 mineral tier 1 building often makes this tactic much more potent. So pricy! Gimmie those gas costing Medivacs instead! ... Seriously guy?
Wake up Protoss, every unit you have is a good harassment unit. Even probes sneaking cannons by a Zerg's 3rd can be used. Stop being lazy as balls. I'm mid masters and have used all of these to great effect. So do top level pros, watch some streams, replays, and tournaments so you can learn how to play your race?
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On April 12 2012 09:12 HaRuHi wrote:
Protoss changes actually sound really great, despite the fact that I seem to be the only one who thinks collosi are the reason why protoss are boring to watch.
Oh, believe me.. you're not the only one. I think the game would be at least twice as interesting if the Colossus was scrapped and Protoss was rebalanced. I find it to be the most boring tech route in every single match-up that involves Protoss, and war of the worlds pvp is so terrible imo.
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EPT
