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On April 12 2012 01:27 Tsenister wrote:
"We are also experimenting with an extremely long-ranged terran missile launcher that can be used to break siege tank lines to make terran-vs.-terran factory-based games more dynamic."
Makes me believe they don't really have players on the development team. I mean they already have ghosts for nukes to make people move siege lines. It would also be a bit weird if the turret was indirect fire and make the game feel less "starcrafty". It would probably be built defensively against tank pushes making the game even more gridlocked.
Its not like Terrans had scans...
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On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this?
Vipers fly.
On April 12 2012 08:37 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? They wouldnt if you expected to lose them. Depending on speed you could maybe avoid that... but it better make an alert or something or people might not even know.... Man... I hoped to hell that the viper's abduct move would be gone... all I can think of is that a zerg makes 10 of these, pulls my colossus out of my army, they die instantly, and then the rest of your pathetic army dies right after -_- they better not have a good range...
Abduct better freakin not be able to pull massive units on release. Not only would it be an utter disaster, but it would look like shit and it wouldn't make sense. Abduct should be a 25/50 energy ability that can not target massive, so it is a means of slowly picking your enemy apart.
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On April 12 2012 08:44 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? Vipers fly. Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:37 mrtomjones wrote:On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? They wouldnt if you expected to lose them. Depending on speed you could maybe avoid that... but it better make an alert or something or people might not even know.... Man... I hoped to hell that the viper's abduct move would be gone... all I can think of is that a zerg makes 10 of these, pulls my colossus out of my army, they die instantly, and then the rest of your pathetic army dies right after -_- they better not have a good range... Abduct better freakin not be able to pull massive units on release. Not only would it be an utter disaster, but it would look like shit and it wouldn't make sense. Abduct should be a 25/50 energy ability that can not target massive, so it is a means of slowly picking your enemy apart.
hmm If they made it like that I'd approve. I thought their video at Blizzcon showed them abducting colossus though.. cant remember for sure
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I don't understand why blizzard seems hellbent on keeping nothing from BW into zerg. This is regarding viper+mineral siphon. Just give it consume already. Lings are already god damn useless in WoL as it is. I don't understand why terran can be very similar to BW but zerg cannot.
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On April 12 2012 08:45 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:44 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? Vipers fly. On April 12 2012 08:37 mrtomjones wrote:On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? They wouldnt if you expected to lose them. Depending on speed you could maybe avoid that... but it better make an alert or something or people might not even know.... Man... I hoped to hell that the viper's abduct move would be gone... all I can think of is that a zerg makes 10 of these, pulls my colossus out of my army, they die instantly, and then the rest of your pathetic army dies right after -_- they better not have a good range... Abduct better freakin not be able to pull massive units on release. Not only would it be an utter disaster, but it would look like shit and it wouldn't make sense. Abduct should be a 25/50 energy ability that can not target massive, so it is a means of slowly picking your enemy apart. hmm If they made it like that I'd approve. I thought their video at Blizzcon showed them abducting colossus though.. cant remember for sure
No you are right, it did. But that would be an utter atrocity if it still was on release.
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On April 12 2012 08:46 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why blizzard seems hellbent on keeping nothing from BW into zerg. This is regarding viper+mineral siphon. Just give it consume already. Lings are already god damn useless in WoL as it is. I don't understand why terran can be very similar to BW but zerg cannot.
Stephano wants a talk with you...
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On April 12 2012 08:46 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why blizzard seems hellbent on keeping nothing from BW into zerg. This is regarding viper+mineral siphon. Just give it consume already. Lings are already god damn useless in WoL as it is. I don't understand why terran can be very similar to BW but zerg cannot.
Because this ISNT BW. Go play it if you want it. It's a pretty near new ability. Lings are also very useful in WoL but alright.
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Bad mojo from this update, scrapping the shredder means we're just back to square 1 with mech as they haven't announced an alternative that's separate from tanks to let you get cheap map control, though I will say I didn't like the shredders "radiates damage" design, I liked the problem it was trying to solve.
They're still removing the mothership right after vortex has become pretty much necessary in PvZ.
They're scrapping the 1 interesting protoss expansion unit, the replicant, though this is likely a good thing in the long run because Protoss is already balanced around a ton of gimmicks, it still means there's a massive hole when protoss go robo but do not get the robotics bay, there's no way to stay low tech and get an edge on someone who immediately techs (see: 1-1-1. 1 base colossus pvp)
They're keeping the oracle despite it being the worst harass unit in the history of the game because it misses out on the #1 thing that every good harassment unit has, which is the ability to swing back around and defend. It also adds additional spell casters to Protoss air in order to be effective, instead of a mutalisk which you box and right click on static defense to kill it, then right click all your probes to kill them you now have to freeze the static defense with an oracle, then pick up individual workers with graviton beam, and if you add a voidray it becomes even worse.
They're apparently still tossing up whether to keep the thor, but the reason i was looking forward to it's removal was because they seemed to have a hard time balancing it's ground viability with it's predominantly anti-air role, which is still a problem.
Tempest is still a glorified carrier, is there some technical limitation that prevents them from just toying with the carrier and bringing it closer to it's BW behavior?
Long range missile launcher from the factory seems misguided and is taking one of the unique aspects away from playing bio vs tanks.
Random nydus worms seems creatively bankrupt, as if they completely don't know what to do so they're trying to throw something in to make this expansion worthwhile.
I think they've done a good job balancing WoL, and i've been pretty positive about the changes coming in HotS but this post to me threw away a lot of the things i was positive about and hasn't replaced them with anything new at all, considering how long they've been working on this it's really disappointing. I can't imagine this is a comprehensive list of changes.
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hm...So a nExus recall will most likely fuck up Terrans drop mechanics? =/
The most interesting worms have been a worm that can spew creep across several screens to create a zerg assault highway
I like a lot =)
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I think Blizzard is perfectly capable designing units on their own. I don't agree with people saying they need progamers for doing this.
When designing a new unit you need a cool idea first, then see if and how it fits into the rest of the game. If it fits well then balancing can begin and this is where progamers can come in.
Trying to do this the other way around is most likely impossible.
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So much hate on the replicant. I hope blizz thinks of something else to give toss a little tech versatility while still having access to detection.
Woulda been nice to have HT's with storm at a reasonable time after opening robo.
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On April 12 2012 08:44 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? Vipers fly. Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:37 mrtomjones wrote:On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? They wouldnt if you expected to lose them. Depending on speed you could maybe avoid that... but it better make an alert or something or people might not even know.... Man... I hoped to hell that the viper's abduct move would be gone... all I can think of is that a zerg makes 10 of these, pulls my colossus out of my army, they die instantly, and then the rest of your pathetic army dies right after -_- they better not have a good range... Abduct better freakin not be able to pull massive units on release. Not only would it be an utter disaster, but it would look like shit and it wouldn't make sense. Abduct should be a 25/50 energy ability that can not target massive, so it is a means of slowly picking your enemy apart.
To justify the cost of the Viper it would have to work on massive units, possible the reason why I am not to fond of the ability in the first place, everything else about the Viper I love though.
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On April 12 2012 08:50 Dingobloo wrote:
Bad mojo from this update, scrapping the shredder means we're just back to square 1 with mech as they haven't announced an alternative that's separate from tanks to let you get cheap map control, though I will say I didn't like the shredders "radiates damage" design, I liked the problem it was trying to solve.
They're still removing the mothership right after vortex has become pretty much necessary in PvZ.
They're scrapping the 1 interesting protoss expansion unit, the replicant, though this is likely a good thing in the long run because Protoss is already balanced around a ton of gimmicks, it still means there's a massive hole when protoss go robo but do not get the robotics bay, there's no way to stay low tech and get an edge on someone who immediately techs (see: 1-1-1. 1 base colossus pvp)
They're keeping the oracle despite it being the worst harass unit in the history of the game because it misses out on the #1 thing that every good harassment unit has, which is the ability to swing back around and defend. It also adds additional spell casters to Protoss air in order to be effective, instead of a mutalisk which you box and right click on static defense to kill it, then right click all your probes to kill them you now have to freeze the static defense with an oracle, then pick up individual workers with graviton beam, and if you add a voidray it becomes even worse.
They're apparently still tossing up whether to keep the thor, but the reason i was looking forward to it's removal was because they seemed to have a hard time balancing it's ground viability with it's predominantly anti-air role, which is still a problem.
Tempest is still a glorified carrier, is there some technical limitation that prevents them from just toying with the carrier and bringing it closer to it's BW behavior?
Long range missile launcher from the factory seems misguided and is taking one of the unique aspects away from playing bio vs tanks.
Random nydus worms seems creatively bankrupt, as if they completely don't know what to do so they're trying to throw something in to make this expansion worthwhile.
I think they've done a good job balancing WoL, and i've been pretty positive about the changes coming in HotS but this post to me threw away a lot of the things i was positive about and hasn't replaced them with anything new at all, considering how long they've been working on this it's really disappointing. I can't imagine this is a comprehensive list of changes.
You realize that they likely used a very similar process for BW to make new units? Propose some ideas and get feedback from who they listen to. Many were likely scrapped. The new nydus worms seem cool to me.
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Blizzard doesn't like how the Warhound is essentially a mini-thor, but that's exactly what's needed IMO, if Blizzard wants to open more strategic options for Terran. Right now there's a glaring hole in mech AA, due to the extreme cost and slow AA attack of the Thor, making it incredibly difficult to perform mech-based strategies. You're going either bio or bio-mech in WoL right now, and while players are trying (and sometimes succeeding, but not often) to do mech strategies, it simply is far too difficult to pull off in comparison.
Being able to get out more AA units allows the AA to become more stable, rather than relying on a rather gimmicky and tiny AoE radius and hoping the opponent does something silly like clump all his air units into a tiny ball. :\ Also, air spider mines sound kinda silly. Can't we get something for the ground instead (not even spider mines necessarily, just something), so we can actually defend against flanks vs. our mech army? Addressing the wrong problem with that one, IMO. All we really need for factory is:
1.) flank defence
2.) at least semi-massable AA units at reasonable cost/supply
Solve those two problems, and you've fixed Terran Factory tech. Obviously SC1 took care of those items with the spider mine and the goliath; I leave it to Blizzard to come up with creative solutions for SC2. ^o^
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What does blizzard and dustin browder have against mech? I don't get it. They should be working on fixing it and making it viable, but they find ways to nerf it and make it useless, so now that mech is useless in TvP, they're going to attempt to introduce a unit to make mech useless in TvT too...? Seriously? Not to mention as 50 other people already have posted by now...it'll just turn into longer siege weapon vs longer siege weapon...and if not that it'll make mech completely and utterly trash because you'd be able to go mass marine marauder + 2 of those siege weapons every single game vs mech.
Nukes already break siege lines...but blizzard does not even keep up with their own game/metagame...do they even know there are ravens in this game? They should probably look at fixing/buffing/tweaking the energy on those before they start introducing inane stuff to Terran.
The protoss stuff sounds ridiculous. Insta warp army back home ? Yeah..not going to make it into the game. A Protoss broodlord? It's not making it in either.
The Zerg unit sounds medic optical flare + defiler-like which is great.
They need to look at simple brood war concepts, and ideally put in SPIDER MINES in SC2, and give mech a good AA+ground unit like the goliath. Seriously, HOTS looks like it's going to be a clusterfuck almost, they haven't looked at reapers/ravens/lategame BCS, they nerfed the ghost to hell...sighs.
At least Zerg players get some cool stuff I guess, but none of this stuff is going to make it into the game, like even bronze people in this thread can make a design decision and realize that a longer siege weapon means TvT would just be longer tank vs longer tank...
Shrugs, sometimes i really wonder. Shredder was a dumb unit, i'm glad they got rid of it. But seriously blizzard...LOOK AT BROOD WAR! So much beautiful/simple stuff in there that was technically "imba" but not actually imba.
And give protoss dark archons. They also need to stop trying to make the game easier. That's all this "new siege unit for terran" is, and same deal for the nydus worms that "spawn creep across three screens" and the one that "can attack on it's own." They are trying to make the game even easier...anything that removes skill cap is bad.
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To be honest, I was kind of excited for the Shredder... It felt like it opened a huge window of opportunity for the Terran players, however I guess the intense defense mechanism possibilites far outweighted new and unique strategies. Quite a shame, I hate turtles 
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On April 12 2012 08:53 WArped wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:44 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? Vipers fly. On April 12 2012 08:37 mrtomjones wrote:On April 12 2012 08:36 Datum wrote:
Viper feeding on minerals => drop vipers in opponent's mineral line => disrupt supply.
I wonder if vipers would be cheap enough to justify this? They wouldnt if you expected to lose them. Depending on speed you could maybe avoid that... but it better make an alert or something or people might not even know.... Man... I hoped to hell that the viper's abduct move would be gone... all I can think of is that a zerg makes 10 of these, pulls my colossus out of my army, they die instantly, and then the rest of your pathetic army dies right after -_- they better not have a good range... Abduct better freakin not be able to pull massive units on release. Not only would it be an utter disaster, but it would look like shit and it wouldn't make sense. Abduct should be a 25/50 energy ability that can not target massive, so it is a means of slowly picking your enemy apart. To justify the cost of the Viper it would have to work on massive units, possible the reason why I am not to fond of the ability in the first place, everything else about the Viper I love though.
I would agree with you if Abduct were the only ability on the Viper, but it's not. And besides the price is really simple to tweak. The application of abilities is not something you ignore because you want the price to be something specific.
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On April 12 2012 08:46 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why blizzard seems hellbent on keeping nothing from BW into zerg. This is regarding viper+mineral siphon. Just give it consume already. Lings are already god damn useless in WoL as it is. I don't understand why terran can be very similar to BW but zerg cannot.
blizzard wants to create a new game not recreate BW. Lings being useless? Lings are only useless in direct engagements against a max toss army with Colly and 6+ sentries. Other than that, they are one of the best units in the game.
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So the viper is like a flying late-game Huk probe? (Prevents a mineral patch from being mined).
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EPT
