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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. | ||
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LarJarsE
United States1378 Posts
On March 25 2012 02:18 lottopk wrote: Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old. User was warned for this post I disagree with the warning of this post. (edit: which is right on the front page.....) It is a Korean expressing his opinion on the forum.... | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13404 Posts
On March 25 2012 12:44 Lysenko wrote: At the risk of getting off-topic (which I'll try to remedy by offering some real information in this post), the handful of layoffs on the development side don't have anything to do with where they are on Battle.net. There are some announced improvements coming in SC2:WoL 1.5, and probably more with HotS, but there's obviously a long story there. * The original Battle.net 2.0 UI implementation, including friends list features and the custom game interface, was thrown together in pure emergency mode by a tiny development team that was pulled off working on Titan with little notice and very little time to get something done. They had no time to implement anything beyond what went into the original release, including the chat channels we got later. * Since that team went back onto Titan as soon as SC2 shipped, it took time to get additional features like chat channels added by the developers that remained. * The project director for Battle.net 2.0, Greg Canessa, moved on to be Activision's VP for mobile development in late 2010. I'm sure this didn't help in terms of pushing Battle.net 2.0 feature development for future projects. * The recent snafu involving D3 community manager Bashiok's posting that D3 wasn't going to have public chat channels because of the high support cost of following up on misbehavior in them, followed by a huge community uproar and Bashiok's posting that he misspoke about that and they were already implemented, suggests to me at least that there's an internal conflict of some kind within Blizzard about whether community features like that are worth the cost on games with no subscription mechanism. Bashiok works for the support organization within Blizzard that would have to pay those costs, and the developers don't, so it sounds like there was probably some high-level push-and-pull there. That last, by the way, is probably the biggest reason that a robust chat system hasn't been developed for SC2 or D3. At least some of the people at Blizzard view it as a very costly feature to support, absence of which won't dissuade most people from buying the game initially. Blizzard dealt with the chat systems in games up through Warcraft 3 as a "buyer beware" kind of system. Spam? Obscene language? No problem! However, World of Warcraft gave them the budget to address those issues, and set a standard that they would address those issues, so suddenly the buyer-beware attitude doesn't seem like a viable choice for future games, even if there's no ongoing revenue stream to pay for anything better. I also think that SC2 wasn't the sales success that they hoped it would be, so they cut back on related development to some extent. However, that's pure speculation on my part. Edit: Don't make me the bad guy by starting a huge side conversation about the merits of bnet 2.0 in this thread. If you feel like answering at length, PM me and we can find somewhere else for that. No no, it all makes sense and you had a well thought out post. I can still hold out hope for improvements that bring more people into or back to the game | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 25 2012 13:07 ZeromuS wrote: No no, it all makes sense and you had a well thought out post. I can still hold out hope for improvements that bring more people into or back to the game That edit wasn't directed at you, I just didn't want to start an off-topic discussion of some kind that might belong better in another thread. Sorry!  BTW I agree, I am certainly hoping for a lot more improvements in this area. | ||
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domane
Canada1606 Posts
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
Many years ago i played wc, then wc2 and then wc3+FT and i honestly feel as though the progression was good for the game. The biggest thing holding BW back from having a wider appeal is the game resolutions, and while a 'purist' might argue that that is part of its charm, sometimes its better to let things move on so you can retain great memories and nostalgia over such things rather than keep them running untill they languish to a point where they have to be cut. I never really got into BW playing more WC myself but i think an eventual shift to sc2 is inevitable and ultimately in Esports best interests - with that being said i wouldnt be surprised if proleague switched and something smaller like iccup remained for the dedicated few (people still play wc3ft). just my 2c. | ||
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Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
On March 25 2012 13:31 tsango wrote: I can appreciate the disappointment many BW fans express with the likelihood that over the next few years it may well be phased out in favour of sc2, Many years ago i played wc, then wc2 and then wc3+FT and i honestly feel as though the progression was good for the game. The biggest thing holding BW back from having a wider appeal is the game resolutions, and while a 'purist' might argue that that is part of its charm, sometimes its better to let things move on so you can retain great memories and nostalgia over such things rather than keep them running untill they languish to a point where they have to be cut. I never really got into BW playing more WC myself but i think an eventual shift to sc2 is inevitable and ultimately in Esports best interests - with that being said i wouldnt be surprised if proleague switched and something smaller like iccup remained for the dedicated few (people still play wc3ft). just my 2c. "Problem" is, many people don't care about ESPORTS(which you spelled wrong btw) but just about their game. Saying that a shift to sc2 is good for ESPORTS will not make things better | ||
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Mawi
Sweden4365 Posts
this is just too bad for the scene but oh well can only wait and see what happends | ||
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hangarninetysix
263 Posts
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stfouri
Finland272 Posts
Guess I just don't take part in this discussion, so I wont get banned. (not offtopic). User was warned for this post | ||
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Wafflelisk
Canada1061 Posts
I don't think that there's any real reason that they both couldn't exist under KeSPA, but any amount of change kind of worries me about how the pieces will resettle. In any event, interesting to see how this plays out. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 25 2012 09:34 Marti wrote: Keep in mind that, for all the bad it has done, KeSPA has created a pretty solid system, that lasted over 10 years, and is still going. Sure, it's not really funny to see flash considered looser because of a power outage, sure we don't like seeing players disqualified for "pp" or "a", but they still managed to build something. How often do you hear about a team stealing another team's players ? How often do you come across problems such as the one that happened to orb, with mad redditorz spamming the sponsors of a team to get someone fired ? Now to be fair, i have to point out that the GOMTV boycott wasn't very nice, but i don't think KeSPA is as bad as people think. I don't visit Reddit, but from what I understand, the SC2 section of Reddit is very vibrant- for better or for worse. It's only natural that an incident like the one that engulfed -orb- would happen on the SC2 scene for Reddit, as the BW Reddit scene is a lot smaller (if it even exists; as I mentioned, I don't visit Reddit myself so I wouldn't know). As for teams stealing one anothers' players... KeSPA takes it to another extreme. Remember when Jaedong became a Free Agent and was left alone in the cold? I'm not sure what went on behind the scenes there, but I get the impression that KeSPA makes it exceedingly difficult for players to switch teams, even if they want to. I certainly wouldn't say that their system is better than the SC2 system for switching teams. As to your last point, I concede that KeSPA has also done a lot of good; they've been at the heart of professional Brood Wars for over a decade, and they deserve at least some of the credit for everything it has achieved. However, that's not good enough for me. I don't go out of my way to thank Kodak for the work they did for photography, I don't sing praises to my local bakery for providing me bread, and I won't fawn over KeSPA for the work it's done for BW. It's their job to do so, and it's reasonable to expect them to promote the BW scene as best as they can. And as far as how well they've been doing their job? I'm not impressed. I look at what GomTV and IPL are doing for the SC2 scene, and they're doing it much, much better. High quality videos on demand, high quality english casting for international audiences, consistently fair rulings, no shenanigans. I love Blizzard's games, and I'm loving what both GomTV and IPL are doing for SC2. KeSPA? Not so much. As to BW vs. SC2 vs. LoL: They're all great games, people. Live and let live. | ||
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Marti
552 Posts
On March 25 2012 14:00 Zato-1 wrote: I don't visit Reddit, but from what I understand, the SC2 section of Reddit is very vibrant- for better or for worse. It's only natural that an incident like the one that engulfed -orb- would happen on the SC2 scene for Reddit, as the BW Reddit scene is a lot smaller (if it even exists; as I mentioned, I don't visit Reddit myself so I wouldn't know). As for teams stealing one anothers' players... KeSPA takes it to another extreme. Remember when Jaedong became a Free Agent and was left alone in the cold? I'm not sure what went on behind the scenes there, but I get the impression that KeSPA makes it exceedingly difficult for players to switch teams, even if they want to. I certainly wouldn't say that their system is better than the SC2 system for switching teams. As to your last point, I concede that KeSPA has also done a lot of good; they've been at the heart of professional Brood Wars for over a decade, and they deserve at least some of the credit for everything it has achieved. However, that's not good enough for me. I don't go out of my way to thank Kodak for the work they did for photography, I don't sing praises to my local bakery for providing me bread, and I won't fawn over KeSPA for the work it's done for BW. It's their job to do so, and it's reasonable to expect them to promote the BW scene as best as they can. And as far as how well they've been doing their job? I'm not impressed. I look at what GomTV and IPL are doing for the SC2 scene, and they're doing it much, much better. High quality videos on demand, high quality english casting for international audiences, consistently fair rulings, no shenanigans. I love Blizzard's games, and I'm loving what both GomTV and IPL are doing for SC2. KeSPA? Not so much. As to BW vs. SC2 vs. LoL: They're all great games, people. Live and let live. Yeah i'm not trying to argue about that, it's just that i don't think kespa is all that evil. But i'm not trying to convince anyone, just wanna remind people that they also do some good. | ||
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honed
Canada482 Posts
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Mazaire
Australia217 Posts
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On March 25 2012 13:59 Wafflelisk wrote: I think KeSPA would do fantastic things with SC2, but I'm kind of torn, as I don't want the future of BW put in jeopardy. I don't think that there's any real reason that they both couldn't exist under KeSPA, but any amount of change kind of worries me about how the pieces will resettle. In any event, interesting to see how this plays out. if you ask me KesPA doesnt want both to exist anyway looking at it from a bussiness standpoint SC2 can make more money the only hurdle KespA has to jump is moving the BW viewers over to SC2 and they can keep the money there making now and add in all the foriegn views they can get | ||
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
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elt
Thailand1092 Posts
On March 25 2012 14:00 Zato-1 wrote: High quality videos on demand, high quality english casting for international audiences, consistently fair rulings, no shenanigans. I love Blizzard's games, and I'm loving what both GomTV and IPL are doing for SC2. KeSPA? Not so much. As to BW vs. SC2 vs. LoL: They're all great games, people. Live and let live. Have you checked out what OGN are doing for LoL? They've got a dedicated English stream on own3d and twitch/table set up in the studio, and a re-broadcast during weekends at what I imagine are better times for US/EU. I think this shows OGN is willing to play ball with foreign companies/viewers if they are shown that they will get something out of it. I've played a bit of every game and watch a bit of all three, but what I'll say is that OGN makes LoL look very, very good. | ||
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Rumpus
United States136 Posts
On March 25 2012 12:44 Lysenko wrote: At the risk of getting off-topic (which I'll try to remedy by offering some real information in this post), the handful of layoffs on the development side don't have anything to do with where they are on Battle.net. There are some announced improvements coming in SC2:WoL 1.5, and probably more with HotS, but there's obviously a long story there. * The original Battle.net 2.0 UI implementation, including friends list features and the custom game interface, was thrown together in pure emergency mode by a tiny development team that was pulled off working on Titan with little notice and very little time to get something done. They had no time to implement anything beyond what went into the original release, including the chat channels we got later. * Since that team went back onto Titan as soon as SC2 shipped, it took time to get additional features like chat channels added by the developers that remained. * The project director for Battle.net 2.0, Greg Canessa, moved on to be Activision's VP for mobile development in late 2010. I'm sure this didn't help in terms of pushing Battle.net 2.0 feature development for future projects. * The recent snafu involving D3 community manager Bashiok's posting that D3 wasn't going to have public chat channels because of the high support cost of following up on misbehavior in them, followed by a huge community uproar and Bashiok's posting that he misspoke about that and they were already implemented, suggests to me at least that there's an internal conflict of some kind within Blizzard about whether community features like that are worth the cost on games with no subscription mechanism. Bashiok works for the support organization within Blizzard that would have to pay those costs, and the developers don't, so it sounds like there was probably some high-level push-and-pull there. That last, by the way, is probably the biggest reason that a robust chat system hasn't been developed for SC2 or D3. At least some of the people at Blizzard view it as a very costly feature to support, absence of which won't dissuade most people from buying the game initially. Blizzard dealt with the chat systems in games up through Warcraft 3 as a "buyer beware" kind of system. Spam? Obscene language? No problem! However, World of Warcraft gave them the budget to address those issues, and set a standard that they would address those issues, so suddenly the buyer-beware attitude doesn't seem like a viable choice for future games, even if there's no ongoing revenue stream to pay for anything better. I also think that SC2 wasn't the sales success that they hoped it would be, so they cut back on related development to some extent. However, that's pure speculation on my part. Edit: Don't make me the bad guy by starting a huge side conversation about the merits of bnet 2.0 in this thread. If you feel like answering at length, PM me and we can find somewhere else for that. Well than it is certainly nice to know that Blizzard lied their asses off about getting features in "directly after launch" or "soon after..." | ||
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800800
Afghanistan64 Posts
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On March 25 2012 14:16 Mazaire wrote: nooo bw Everything comes to an end. One day SC2 will. I actually wouldn't be surprised if computers get to the point where they barely support games like BW without having to do pain in the ass things to ensure compatibility like other games that come to mind. | ||
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