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On February 19 2012 02:34 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:23 carloselcoco wrote:On February 19 2012 02:19 shizna wrote:
seeker missile is great on paper but absolutely awful in practice... if zerg attacks with broodlords on 16-20 minutes, what are you going to do? delay for 5 minutes to get your ravens out then delay for another 5 minutes to get enough energy for seeker missile?? hahahhahhahahahahahahahaahah!!!!
spamming auto-turret and PDD is pretty nice, but doesn't do anything against broodlord/ultra... seeker missile is basically fungal growth except it costs 125 energy. Difference is that you can outrun Seeker Missile, but you can't outrun a fungal... Difference is that T3 can't outrun a Seeker Missile and you can throw infinite numbers on the same target and the damage stacks ontop of eachother and the AoE is bigger. You need T3 to deal with terran in the late game, even if it's just marines with siege tanks, you need either ultras or brood lords to beat it. So can everyone try to think from zerg's perspective abit here because if our T3 isn't viable what do we do to beat terran? People that say that fungal outrange raven etc.. Then fine, infestors arn't viable versus terran because tanks outrange them and EMP have the same range except you only need to use it once on each target.
The issue they're discussing is that fungal forcibly keeps units in place, which means 1 fungal is almost assured death, as the swarm will instantly overrun the units who got fungaled and instantly kill them. Also if a raven is fungalled it cannot move, it can get fungalled, the units can move away, and ta da! HSM is literally impossible. Tanks, EMP etc all do damage, but do not keep a large circle of units immobile, awaiting their doom.
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On February 19 2012 02:34 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:23 carloselcoco wrote:On February 19 2012 02:19 shizna wrote:
seeker missile is great on paper but absolutely awful in practice... if zerg attacks with broodlords on 16-20 minutes, what are you going to do? delay for 5 minutes to get your ravens out then delay for another 5 minutes to get enough energy for seeker missile?? hahahhahhahahahahahahahaahah!!!!
spamming auto-turret and PDD is pretty nice, but doesn't do anything against broodlord/ultra... seeker missile is basically fungal growth except it costs 125 energy. Difference is that you can outrun Seeker Missile, but you can't outrun a fungal... Difference is that T3 can't outrun a Seeker Missile and you can throw infinite numbers on the same target and the damage stacks ontop of eachother and the AoE is bigger. You need T3 to deal with terran in the late game, even if it's just marines with siege tanks, you need either ultras or brood lords to beat it. So can everyone try to think from zerg's perspective abit here because if our T3 isn't viable what do we do to beat terran? People that say that fungal outrange raven etc.. Then fine, infestors arn't viable versus terran because tanks outrange them and EMP have the same range except you only need to use it once on each target.
The problem with this reasoning is that T3 has always been viable against Terran, even if Snipe isn't nerfed. What shouldn't be the case, however, is that T3 is an auto-win, which is basically what it'll be once Snipe is nerfed to the point that it does nothing against an Ultra/Ling remax. Again, the problem isn't that Terran can't kill BL/Infestor or Ultra/Ling. It's that it can't survive the remax without a powerful versatile unit like the Ghost.
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I am borderline confused that this patch is getting trough. I remember that EVERY time a whole community was against a nerf, blizz canceled it (for example infestors cant fungal air). Thanks blizzard for taking away our only lategame option in tvz lategame.
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On February 19 2012 01:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Problem with going ravens vs broodlords is
1) Outranged by fungal
2) You kill 6 broodlords, zerg sees you have 10 ravens, laughs and makes ultras and you die instantly
3) You kill 6 broodlords, zerg sees you have 5 ravens and they have no mana now, zerg laughs and makes 6 new broodlords.
if you combine LATEGAME ravens with mech and vikings then it becomes very hard for zerg to beat, and ultras are still useless against heavy mech and a turtling terran.
as for ravens being useless against ultras, there not. u can use auto turrets to fuck up the pathing of ultras the same way as u use infested terrans to block ultras in ZvZ. HSM also works good combined with the splash of the tanks. ultras just melt.
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I just watched IdrA's stream and Major did a turtle mech style with ravens incorporated. IdrA couldn't do anything against the seeker missiles and ultimately lost everything.
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On February 19 2012 02:34 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:23 carloselcoco wrote:On February 19 2012 02:19 shizna wrote:
seeker missile is great on paper but absolutely awful in practice... if zerg attacks with broodlords on 16-20 minutes, what are you going to do? delay for 5 minutes to get your ravens out then delay for another 5 minutes to get enough energy for seeker missile?? hahahhahhahahahahahahahaahah!!!!
spamming auto-turret and PDD is pretty nice, but doesn't do anything against broodlord/ultra... seeker missile is basically fungal growth except it costs 125 energy. Difference is that you can outrun Seeker Missile, but you can't outrun a fungal... Difference is that T3 can't outrun a Seeker Missile and you can throw infinite numbers on the same target and the damage stacks ontop of eachother and the AoE is bigger. You need T3 to deal with terran in the late game, even if it's just marines with siege tanks, you need either ultras or brood lords to beat it. So can everyone try to think from zerg's perspective abit here because if our T3 isn't viable what do we do to beat terran? People that say that fungal outrange raven etc.. Then fine, infestors arn't viable versus terran because tanks outrange them and EMP have the same range except you only need to use it once on each target.
You mean besides the fact that the broodlords are allways 9 range from the tanks, which have range 12. This means that the tanks max range is 3 range behind the broodlords. Seekermissile is range 6 from the broodlords which translates into 3 range closer to the broodlords compared to the siegetanks. 12 range - 3 range = 9 range. Which means that when the raven is in range to cast seekermissile it is also within the max range of the aoe fungal while the infestors are right on the border of the siegetanks max range. (This means that the frontline tank have a chance to hit a poorly microed infestor, but it wont die from 1 hit, but the tanks behind can't reach anything.)
Sure it is theorycrafting but if you cast seekermissile against an infestor/broodlord army there is a high risk you throw away all your ravens.
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On February 19 2012 02:44 XiGua wrote:
I just watched IdrA's stream and Major did a turtle mech style with ravens incorporated. IdrA couldn't do anything against the seeker missiles and ultimately lost everything.
Terran will be fine without Ghosts, as Terran always is.
to the guy above. So what if you lose all your ravens? With 1 spell you have just wiped out god knows how many Broods which have gone through the process of
Corrupter + being morphed = more than 200 gas. If you lose 8 ravens for 20 Broods, I think it's safe to say it's a pretty good trade
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United States13143 Posts
On February 19 2012 02:46 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:44 XiGua wrote:
I just watched IdrA's stream and Major did a turtle mech style with ravens incorporated. IdrA couldn't do anything against the seeker missiles and ultimately lost everything. Terran will be fine without Ghosts, as Terran always is. to the guy above. So what if you lose all your ravens? With 1 spell you have just wiped out god knows how many Broods which have gone through the process of Corrupter + being morphed = more than 200 gas. If you lose 8 ravens for 20 Broods, I think it's safe to say it's a pretty good trade
unless these broodlords are as stacked up as stacked up mutalisks in BW, you're not trading 8 ravens for 20 broodlords; it's more like 8 ravens for 5 broods.
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On February 19 2012 02:49 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:46 Denzil wrote:On February 19 2012 02:44 XiGua wrote:
I just watched IdrA's stream and Major did a turtle mech style with ravens incorporated. IdrA couldn't do anything against the seeker missiles and ultimately lost everything. Terran will be fine without Ghosts, as Terran always is. to the guy above. So what if you lose all your ravens? With 1 spell you have just wiped out god knows how many Broods which have gone through the process of Corrupter + being morphed = more than 200 gas. If you lose 8 ravens for 20 Broods, I think it's safe to say it's a pretty good trade unless these broodlords are as stacked up as stacked up mutalisks in BW, you're not trading 8 ravens for 20 broodlords; it's more like 8 ravens for 5 broods.
lol. so much whining. only your whining is interfering with your aiblity to think logically.
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ridiculous, blizzard... and to all the Terran haters  :
yeah, sure, since the release of sc2 there have been some adjustments to be made regarding the Terran race in order to bring more balance into this game, which worked out at least decently. but just bragging around and telling people that Terran had been op for the last year and a half and thus trying to justify this stupid ghost nerf isn't going to help anyone, as the only true goal should be a perfectly balanced game that remains challenging, but will not be unfair (something wow's pvp could never achieve!)
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On February 19 2012 02:45 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:34 Olsson wrote:On February 19 2012 02:23 carloselcoco wrote:On February 19 2012 02:19 shizna wrote:
seeker missile is great on paper but absolutely awful in practice... if zerg attacks with broodlords on 16-20 minutes, what are you going to do? delay for 5 minutes to get your ravens out then delay for another 5 minutes to get enough energy for seeker missile?? hahahhahhahahahahahahahaahah!!!!
spamming auto-turret and PDD is pretty nice, but doesn't do anything against broodlord/ultra... seeker missile is basically fungal growth except it costs 125 energy. Difference is that you can outrun Seeker Missile, but you can't outrun a fungal... Difference is that T3 can't outrun a Seeker Missile and you can throw infinite numbers on the same target and the damage stacks ontop of eachother and the AoE is bigger. You need T3 to deal with terran in the late game, even if it's just marines with siege tanks, you need either ultras or brood lords to beat it. So can everyone try to think from zerg's perspective abit here because if our T3 isn't viable what do we do to beat terran? People that say that fungal outrange raven etc.. Then fine, infestors arn't viable versus terran because tanks outrange them and EMP have the same range except you only need to use it once on each target. You mean besides the fact that the broodlords are allways 9 range from the tanks, which have range 12. This means that the tanks max range is 3 range behind the broodlords. Seekermissile is range 6 from the broodlords which translates into 3 range closer to the broodlords compared to the siegetanks. 12 range - 3 range = 9 range. Which means that when the raven is in range to cast seekermissile it is also within the max range of the aoe fungal while the infestors are right on the border of the siegetanks max range. (This means that the frontline tank have a chance to hit a poorly microed infestor, but it wont die from 1 hit, but the tanks behind can't reach anything.) Sure it is theorycrafting but if you cast seekermissile against an infestor/broodlord army there is a high risk you throw away all your ravens.
no there isnt because you are forgetting about vikings. even if zerg gets a good fungal off the broods are still taking pop shots from vikings. you are alos forgeting thors which have a range of 10. they might not do significant dmg to broods, but they still do more then enough to dwindle them down. you also cant really risk your infestors getting to close to the terran because siege tanks will blow like 5 of them to hell at once. so even if there is a slight risk for the terran, the risk is MUCH MUCH higher for the zerg. MUCH higher. the terran army is just extremly cost effective against zerg.
if you can get HSM off on the broods then it doesnt matter if all the ravens die, all the broods are gone and that is the main threat. without broods a zerg late game army is litteraly nothing.
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I don't want to have to play Turtle mech + Ravens.
TvZ is fun because marines are very mobile and versatile. :/
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On February 19 2012 01:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 23:02 Lorch wrote:On February 18 2012 23:01 llKenZyll wrote:On February 18 2012 12:55 FinestHour wrote:
Yup looks like ghost change is going through, better start busting out the ravens friends. Spread broods? They don't do it vs mothership vortex they won't do it vs HSM. It took terrans a year to start using ghost's emp spell against a race where every unit has atleast 1/3 of health in shields, in this game it takes people a lot of time to start playing correctly. You are an idiot, terran used ghosts since DAY 1 OF BETA. I can tell yout his because I PLAYED SINCE DAY1 OF BETA.
No they have not. Sorry. I played since Day 1 of beta. There might be like two terran out there who used ghosts once in a while out of curiosity. But never as a standard part of the composition until the recent metagame changes.
I think you don't have the right to call people idiots until you win a game.
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On February 19 2012 02:46 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:44 XiGua wrote:
I just watched IdrA's stream and Major did a turtle mech style with ravens incorporated. IdrA couldn't do anything against the seeker missiles and ultimately lost everything. Terran will be fine without Ghosts, as Terran always is. to the guy above. So what if you lose all your ravens? With 1 spell you have just wiped out god knows how many Broods which have gone through the process of Corrupter + being morphed = more than 200 gas. If you lose 8 ravens for 20 Broods, I think it's safe to say it's a pretty good trade
In the perfect world where a zerg stack up 20 broodlords within the blast range of a baneling, sure it might be good.  It's pretty much the same as if he would stack them like that and 10 thors came walking and one-shotted all of the broodlords. It can happen but not very likely. (only difference is that the thors won't get fungaled to death as easily )
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On February 19 2012 02:51 FGSonata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 01:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 18 2012 23:02 Lorch wrote:On February 18 2012 23:01 llKenZyll wrote:On February 18 2012 12:55 FinestHour wrote:
Yup looks like ghost change is going through, better start busting out the ravens friends. Spread broods? They don't do it vs mothership vortex they won't do it vs HSM. It took terrans a year to start using ghost's emp spell against a race where every unit has atleast 1/3 of health in shields, in this game it takes people a lot of time to start playing correctly. You are an idiot, terran used ghosts since DAY 1 OF BETA. I can tell yout his because I PLAYED SINCE DAY1 OF BETA. No they have not. Sorry. I played since Day 1 of beta. There might be like two terran out there who used ghosts once in a while out of curiosity. But never as a standard part of the composition until the recent metagame changes. I think you don't have the right to call people idiots until you win a game.
ive played beta since day 1 aswell and i can confirm that ghost were very much used... mainly because A) nukes were more viable then in BW, and B) cloaked EMPs.
granted snipe wasnt used much in beta to great effect like it is now, but EMP sure was in TvP.
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On February 19 2012 02:51 FGSonata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 01:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 18 2012 23:02 Lorch wrote:On February 18 2012 23:01 llKenZyll wrote:On February 18 2012 12:55 FinestHour wrote:
Yup looks like ghost change is going through, better start busting out the ravens friends. Spread broods? They don't do it vs mothership vortex they won't do it vs HSM. It took terrans a year to start using ghost's emp spell against a race where every unit has atleast 1/3 of health in shields, in this game it takes people a lot of time to start playing correctly. You are an idiot, terran used ghosts since DAY 1 OF BETA. I can tell yout his because I PLAYED SINCE DAY1 OF BETA. No they have not. Sorry. I played since Day 1 of beta. There might be like two terran out there who used ghosts once in a while out of curiosity. But never as a standard part of the composition until the recent metagame changes. I think you don't have the right to call people idiots until you win a game.
Just so you're aware, Jinro has two consecutive Round of 4 performances in the GSL under his belt. You should listen to him.
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On February 19 2012 02:51 FGSonata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 01:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 18 2012 23:02 Lorch wrote:On February 18 2012 23:01 llKenZyll wrote:On February 18 2012 12:55 FinestHour wrote:
Yup looks like ghost change is going through, better start busting out the ravens friends. Spread broods? They don't do it vs mothership vortex they won't do it vs HSM. It took terrans a year to start using ghost's emp spell against a race where every unit has atleast 1/3 of health in shields, in this game it takes people a lot of time to start playing correctly. You are an idiot, terran used ghosts since DAY 1 OF BETA. I can tell yout his because I PLAYED SINCE DAY1 OF BETA. No they have not. Sorry. I played since Day 1 of beta. There might be like two terran out there who used ghosts once in a while out of curiosity. But never as a standard part of the composition until the recent metagame changes. I think you don't have the right to call people idiots until you win a game.
Yes they have...
I still remember me being EMPed to death the first time during Beta and it was like the second game. So yeah, they have used it.
But I think that you mean ghosts against Zerg. Well, Jinro never talked about against Zerg because llKenZyll talked about using the EMP against Protoss.
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On February 19 2012 02:57 richter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 02:51 FGSonata wrote:On February 19 2012 01:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 18 2012 23:02 Lorch wrote:On February 18 2012 23:01 llKenZyll wrote:On February 18 2012 12:55 FinestHour wrote:
Yup looks like ghost change is going through, better start busting out the ravens friends. Spread broods? They don't do it vs mothership vortex they won't do it vs HSM. It took terrans a year to start using ghost's emp spell against a race where every unit has atleast 1/3 of health in shields, in this game it takes people a lot of time to start playing correctly. You are an idiot, terran used ghosts since DAY 1 OF BETA. I can tell yout his because I PLAYED SINCE DAY1 OF BETA. No they have not. Sorry. I played since Day 1 of beta. There might be like two terran out there who used ghosts once in a while out of curiosity. But never as a standard part of the composition until the recent metagame changes. I think you don't have the right to call people idiots until you win a game. Just so you're aware, Jinro has two consecutive Round of 4 performances in the GSL under his belt. You should listen to him.
That was well over a year ago, since then he has done absolutely nothing of note. I still respect his opinion more so than some random master or GM terrans, but he is also known to rage quite a bit, and honestly from his posts it feels like he's turning into a terran version of idra, but without the ability to really win tournament games at the moment.
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On February 19 2012 02:51 FGSonata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 01:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 18 2012 23:02 Lorch wrote:On February 18 2012 23:01 llKenZyll wrote:On February 18 2012 12:55 FinestHour wrote:
Yup looks like ghost change is going through, better start busting out the ravens friends. Spread broods? They don't do it vs mothership vortex they won't do it vs HSM. It took terrans a year to start using ghost's emp spell against a race where every unit has atleast 1/3 of health in shields, in this game it takes people a lot of time to start playing correctly. You are an idiot, terran used ghosts since DAY 1 OF BETA. I can tell yout his because I PLAYED SINCE DAY1 OF BETA. No they have not. Sorry. I played since Day 1 of beta. There might be like two terran out there who used ghosts once in a while out of curiosity. But never as a standard part of the composition until the recent metagame changes. I think you don't have the right to call people idiots until you win a game.
Brat_OK used Ghosts since beta I remember watching a Day9 daily focused solely on that opening and wondering who this mysterious russian player was
Theorycrafting Broods v Ravens is retarded because no matter what 1 side says the other will theorycraft something even worse. If you want solid concerete proof Ravens work in TvZ watch Idra v Major from earlier in his stream.
Major goes mech Idra goes Roach Infestor Brood, Major fires 2 seekers and destroys Idra's Broods, If "spreading out" is your answer then when Idra attempted to spread Major's vikings just picked off a few broods.
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I really dont understand why people act like they are removing the ghost from existence
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EPT
