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On February 16 2012 05:12 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:09 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 05:02 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:44 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:43 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:37 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On February 16 2012 04:19 shankems2000 wrote:
As InControl or Pain user said on sotg last night, they're trying to make it a self sustaining business. Meaning relying not on sponsors but on revenue from viewers and lovers of e-sports. It's only $20 bucks. Even you starving college kids can swing that much. Yeah, we swung that much when we paid for the Gold membership already. Yes you did, but since then they have doubled their content. Of course things will have to change. It is an unfortunate situation but people with gold passes need to realize that doubling their content doesn't come free. No, but we should reasonably be able to expect that when we pay for "access to all content" that's what we'll be receiving. If MLG needs to up their fee they can do so when it's time for us to renew. Not suddenly charge for something for which we've already paid. That is my point. Then we would have to wait almost an entire year for MLG to put out extra tournaments. It is not feasible for them to have these without increasing the price. If we want these tournaments now then we have to pay. I think what you're going to find is that most people don't want these tournaments. That might be the case and then they wont pay. That could be a good thing. In the end though, I think you, myself and most of the hardcore fans are going to be paying for our SC2 content. I used to have the charity mentality about SC2. "MLG needs my money so esports will survive!" Except now, when I give them my money, they can't give me the product that they promised. I'm going to be taking my dollars elsewhere. This is a good chance for NASL to scoop up some people. My point is that the GSL is already doing it, MLG is joining ship and I do not think it will be too long before the other big organizers join up too. As many sources in the industry have stated, there needs to be a new way to increase revenue other than advertising. And as of right now, charging customers more seems like the best answer. Hopefully they come up with a better solution but I personally do not think they will.
GSL holds a UFC type idea. Where their company does it the best, so they can charge the viewer for it. MLG is not the best, so this won't fly. Why does their need to be a new way to increase revenue? Why not use the revenue you already have more wisely? Why not instead use the Winter Areana to gain 400k concurrents becaues it would have been the most watched tournament that weekend then negotiate with sponsors before the next event for more moeny because their product now receives more views. So on and so forth until professional gaming plateaus.
On February 16 2012 05:05 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On February 16 2012 04:19 shankems2000 wrote:
As InControl or Pain user said on sotg last night, they're trying to make it a self sustaining business. Meaning relying not on sponsors but on revenue from viewers and lovers of e-sports. It's only $20 bucks. Even you starving college kids can swing that much. Every TV show and Sports event and stream you watch follows the model of freemium (exception of UFC). Why should MLG be able to switch the format and why do they have to? I don't think they have to switch their current model, but they are instead attempting to cash out even more on what looks to be one of the best events since SC2 released. You are right it is only $20, but to be honest in reality I pay nothing for the super bowl. Sure I pay my cable and internet bill and can watch either way, but with paying that bill I have access to everything those two provide for a whole month meaning that one isolated item (super bowl) isn't even worth a single cent of my bill. Instead the NFL and the cable company do things smartly and don't misuse their funds as MLG has. when MLG can sell their broadcasting rights for billions of dollars, we can talk about the NFL comparison. But MLG can't really even get on tv right now.
It is all relative and also I wouldn't want any gaming event on TV, maybe perhaps live, but not only on TV. NFL can sell their broadcasting rights for billions, but how much of that is pumped into each and every team and stadium costs ect. They make more but have bigger expenses. I still pay nothing. MLG is misusing funds, in the ITG thread I made a whole point about it there, but won't remake it here. MLG probably does make a profit, and now wants pad their books even more.
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On February 16 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:12 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:09 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 05:02 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:44 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:43 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:37 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On February 16 2012 04:19 shankems2000 wrote:
As InControl or Pain user said on sotg last night, they're trying to make it a self sustaining business. Meaning relying not on sponsors but on revenue from viewers and lovers of e-sports. It's only $20 bucks. Even you starving college kids can swing that much. Yeah, we swung that much when we paid for the Gold membership already. Yes you did, but since then they have doubled their content. Of course things will have to change. It is an unfortunate situation but people with gold passes need to realize that doubling their content doesn't come free. No, but we should reasonably be able to expect that when we pay for "access to all content" that's what we'll be receiving. If MLG needs to up their fee they can do so when it's time for us to renew. Not suddenly charge for something for which we've already paid. That is my point. Then we would have to wait almost an entire year for MLG to put out extra tournaments. It is not feasible for them to have these without increasing the price. If we want these tournaments now then we have to pay. I think what you're going to find is that most people don't want these tournaments. That might be the case and then they wont pay. That could be a good thing. In the end though, I think you, myself and most of the hardcore fans are going to be paying for our SC2 content. I used to have the charity mentality about SC2. "MLG needs my money so esports will survive!" Except now, when I give them my money, they can't give me the product that they promised. I'm going to be taking my dollars elsewhere. This is a good chance for NASL to scoop up some people. My point is that the GSL is already doing it, MLG is joining ship and I do not think it will be too long before the other big organizers join up too. As many sources in the industry have stated, there needs to be a new way to increase revenue other than advertising. And as of right now, charging customers more seems like the best answer. Hopefully they come up with a better solution but I personally do not think they will. GSL holds a UFC type idea. Where their company does it the best, so they can charge the viewer for it. MLG is not the best, so this won't fly. Why does their need to be a new way to increase revenue? Why not use the revenue you already have more wisely? Why not instead use the Winter Areana to gain 400k concurrents becaues it would have been the most watched tournament that weekend then negotiate with sponsors before the next event for more moeny because their product now receives more views. So on and so forth until professional gaming plateaus.
However, MLG offers the best live content for many people in the States. I basically am paying upwards of $100 for GSL VODS so I personally would not mind paying around that much for all of MLGs content.
There are a couple of posts in this thread that explain that they will generate more revenue by charging the viewers than they would off of advertising alone. And of course they want to generate more revenue, especially since their investors will be happier and more willing to invest more money. If MLG grows then eSports grows as well.
This article goes into to it better than I could: http://wellplayed.org/forum/articles/thread/why-mlgs-winter-arena-being-ppv-is-the-b
It is possible that MLG is jumping the gun on this and could have waited until eSports plateaued but I still see this being the future of eSports and we were going to end up here eventually.
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On February 16 2012 04:19 shankems2000 wrote:
As InControl or Pain user said on sotg last night, they're trying to make it a self sustaining business. Meaning relying not on sponsors but on revenue from viewers and lovers of e-sports. It's only $20 bucks. Even you starving college kids can swing that much.
I can spare a lot of $20s. Lost 90 of them last friday playing poker and 10 last night. too bad I buy on RELATIVE value like most people. MLG is not a value compared to lessor priced GSL or other FREE tounaments.
MLG is putting cart before horse here. Or collection plate without offering a trip to heaven or even close.
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On February 16 2012 03:22 Klondikebar wrote:
I'm REALLY not pleased with how they're treating their gold members. Like Nony, I love watching games live...which is exactly why I bought my gold membership. MLG isn't just charging me $20 for Arena, they're charging me for Arena after I've already paid for it. That's no bueno.
And I'm so tired of this pseudo charity mentality we're expected to have about esports. "These companies need to make money to grow Starcraft so you're a bad person if you don't buy their stuff" is utter nonsense. You want a real business truth? If you can't price your product competitively then you probably shouldn't be in the market at all.
I couldn't have said it better. I'm not a gold member, but if I were, I'd be up in arms.
You have to give it to MLG though in one point. I'm certain they know that $20 is LOLtastically overpriced, and they're willingly letting this event's viership numbers going to shit, so they can come out for the next event all sensible-like.
"We listened to community feedback, and we admit that for the last event we charged a bit more than the average ESPORTS fan is willing to pay. That's why we are willing to take the fall for our beloved community (that we're not trying to a**r**e), and even if business is going to be tough now and this will put us on the verge of bankrupcy, we have made the decision to lower our prices for the next event to $19.99 and for gold members to 18.99. If you don't pay that, you're hurting ESPORTS!!!"
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On February 14 2012 07:54 Grumbels wrote:
Please don't let this become a 100 page thread filled with bitter arguments and complaints. :o
Dont worry its going to get to 200 :D .. i think of sc2 as ( a poor college kids game ) cause aside from the 50 bucks for the game itself. And i know its only 20 bucks... but if we pay it now they are just going to do it again again ect. Then Day9 will be charging, and if day9 charges i will Cry irl.
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On February 16 2012 05:18 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:57 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:49 StarStruck wrote:On February 16 2012 04:37 drgoats wrote:
Yes you did, but since then they have doubled their content. Of course things will have to change. It is an unfortunate situation but people with gold passes need to realize that doubling their content doesn't come free. It all adds up with every purchase. The biggest problem I have with this is they aren't growing their fanbase from this and the only publicity they're getting is this crap. Self-sustaining or not. They aren't bringing new money into their business with this model. This isn't an emerging market like BoSs pointed out in his blog. There's all sorts of logistical issues with this and how it was carried out. It does add up after each purchase and when you get to the final total it is pretty much on par with the GSL in price. I am not too sure if they need to bring in new business. There are plenty of free tournaments out there that will draw in the new viewers. I consider that they are approaching this like the end game. If you really like SC2 then you must go see MLGs coverage. I do agree that their are some issues with how this played out but that is just part of the transition. To me that model is the future of eSports. The GSL is already doing it and they are highly touted. No, it isn't and that wasn't even the point I was making. ._. Group all the events together and then you'll see what I'm talking about. It's quite a bit when you pay for each one. If you aren't bringing in new money then what is the purpose? I don't see how they're growing their business from Winter Arena when you look at all their expenses. Normally this would come off as a cash grab, but like I said. MLG is practically paying for everything. We're focusing on the scale of this one event. Not anything else. MLG is in the business to make money; not break even. I question the decision-making. The announcement was late just like their remodel of pricing; they handled the build-up poorly and they continue to confuse their consumers. Not only that, but if you are going to do a PPV. You better do your best to market it and provide as much build-up to it as possible. I have no doubt in my mind that my fellow barcrafters will have a lot of fun watching this but gosh almighty. They could have done this a lot better. Plus their fanbase could definitely be stepped up a notch to limit the risk of holding such an event and they aren't doing themselves any favors when they close off exposure.
I will add it up:
MLG
4 arenas - $20 each
Gold pass for championships - $30
$110 total
$13.75 per tournament for all of MLG's content
GSL
4 GSLs - $70 - 80 (they keep lowering prices as the year moves forward)
~$20 per tournament
If you start adding in their other events like the GSTL's you are looking at over $20 per tournament and over $150 for the year.
So basically MLG tournaments cost less than GSL tournaments assuming that you are unable to watch the free stream of GSL.
A counter argument could be that MLGs only run on a couple of days while the GSL just keeps on delivering. This is true but do not forget that MLG did offer the qualifiers for the arenas free of charge. That will turn out to be a little less than 4 months of free MLG content.
As for the rest of your post I pretty much agree with most of what you say. I am not saying that they handled this right I just understand why it is happening. MLG had to make a tough decision and was going to take a lot of shit for it. They are probably hoping this will blow over and I am pretty sure that it will.
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On February 16 2012 05:00 drgoats wrote:
I am guessing that there are more viewers of MLG who are not gold than who are. If they gave this event out to all of the gold members than all of the silver and non members would be in an uproar that we have to pay this much for an event that gold members are paying less than $3 for. They would piss off more people that way.
Gold members are those customers whom have already shown a willingness to pay for content up front. We don't know how many customers will take advantage of the $20 PPV.
You would, as a business, seriously throw all of those already-paying customers under the bus in order not to upset an unknown number of customers you may or may not get in a grand business experiment?
Really?
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On February 16 2012 05:56 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:00 drgoats wrote:
I am guessing that there are more viewers of MLG who are not gold than who are. If they gave this event out to all of the gold members than all of the silver and non members would be in an uproar that we have to pay this much for an event that gold members are paying less than $3 for. They would piss off more people that way. Gold members are those customers whom have already shown a willingness to pay for content up front. We don't know how many customers will take advantage of the $20 PPV. You would, as a business, seriously throw all of those already-paying customers under the bus in order not to upset an unknown number of customers you may or may not get in a grand business experiment? Really?
That is a good point but I am pretty sure that they think that their viewership will not lower this year and will only go up. Who knows now after this debacle? So if that was the case they probably had a good idea of how many non-gold members they have or at least if it is enough to justify a decision like this.
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Frankly anyone who pays for MLG weekend passes is an idiot. Sustaining their business plan by removing the need for sponsors by increasing viewer revenue whilst simultaneously retaining said sponsors is just a bunch of people out to make a fast buck, MLG money-grabber has done this before and will try and try to do it again. Dont stand for this shit. Dont pay for something which every other tour offers for free.
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Just like I refuse to pay to watch MMA, or any other sporting event unless I'm live in person, I will not be purchasing this. I understand why it has to be done, but I really wish there were alternatives!
Good luck MLG
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On February 16 2012 05:59 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:56 bonifaceviii wrote:On February 16 2012 05:00 drgoats wrote:
I am guessing that there are more viewers of MLG who are not gold than who are. If they gave this event out to all of the gold members than all of the silver and non members would be in an uproar that we have to pay this much for an event that gold members are paying less than $3 for. They would piss off more people that way. Gold members are those customers whom have already shown a willingness to pay for content up front. We don't know how many customers will take advantage of the $20 PPV. You would, as a business, seriously throw all of those already-paying customers under the bus in order not to upset an unknown number of customers you may or may not get in a grand business experiment? Really? That is a good point but I am pretty sure that they think that their viewership will not lower this year and will only go up. Who knows now after this debacle? So if that was the case they probably had a good idea of how many non-gold members they have or at least if it is enough to justify a decision like this.
It seems to me that if you think you have a ton of non-gold members (and relatively few gold members) then it should be pretty easy to offer the Arena to gold members for free.
There just aren't any scenarios I can think of where this is the right thing to do.
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On February 16 2012 05:38 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 16 2012 05:12 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:09 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 05:02 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:44 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:43 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:37 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:19 bonifaceviii wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, we swung that much when we paid for the Gold membership already. Yes you did, but since then they have doubled their content. Of course things will have to change. It is an unfortunate situation but people with gold passes need to realize that doubling their content doesn't come free. No, but we should reasonably be able to expect that when we pay for "access to all content" that's what we'll be receiving. If MLG needs to up their fee they can do so when it's time for us to renew. Not suddenly charge for something for which we've already paid. That is my point. Then we would have to wait almost an entire year for MLG to put out extra tournaments. It is not feasible for them to have these without increasing the price. If we want these tournaments now then we have to pay. I think what you're going to find is that most people don't want these tournaments. That might be the case and then they wont pay. That could be a good thing. In the end though, I think you, myself and most of the hardcore fans are going to be paying for our SC2 content. I used to have the charity mentality about SC2. "MLG needs my money so esports will survive!" Except now, when I give them my money, they can't give me the product that they promised. I'm going to be taking my dollars elsewhere. This is a good chance for NASL to scoop up some people. My point is that the GSL is already doing it, MLG is joining ship and I do not think it will be too long before the other big organizers join up too. As many sources in the industry have stated, there needs to be a new way to increase revenue other than advertising. And as of right now, charging customers more seems like the best answer. Hopefully they come up with a better solution but I personally do not think they will. GSL holds a UFC type idea. Where their company does it the best, so they can charge the viewer for it. MLG is not the best, so this won't fly. Why does their need to be a new way to increase revenue? Why not use the revenue you already have more wisely? Why not instead use the Winter Areana to gain 400k concurrents becaues it would have been the most watched tournament that weekend then negotiate with sponsors before the next event for more moeny because their product now receives more views. So on and so forth until professional gaming plateaus. However, MLG offers the best live content for many people in the States. I basically am paying upwards of $100 for GSL VODS so I personally would not mind paying around that much for all of MLGs content. There are a couple of posts in this thread that explain that they will generate more revenue by charging the viewers than they would off of advertising alone. And of course they want to generate more revenue, especially since their investors will be happier and more willing to invest more money. If MLG grows then eSports grows as well. This article goes into to it better than I could: http://wellplayed.org/forum/articles/thread/why-mlgs-winter-arena-being-ppv-is-the-bIt is possible that MLG is jumping the gun on this and could have waited until eSports plateaued but I still see this being the future of eSports and we were going to end up here eventually.
Please don't get me wrong I'm not missing this event for anything even if I don't watch live I will be seeing the VODs.
Obviously they have to generate more revenue or find better uses for their revenue. My issue is relatively other companys can do without charing the end use and are sucessful. This MLG product right here. This very event we are discussion if it were free could pull in a much higher revenue in this scenario. This tournament so far has been the most expensive one for them to run. They got the best players flying from all over the fucking world. There is a competing tournament during the same weekend that they would blow out of the water. Assembly would have 2 viewers. I don't think that is a good thing for us, but it is said to emphasise my point about how awesome this event is going to be. This event then proceedes to get 500,000 concurrents because so far it has the most sex appeal of any tournament on a global scale. WCG style event that is actually good and actually competitive? With the massive boost in viewers they could aruge that for the next event they need a 10% increase in money per commercial run. This simply is not the event to do this in. They could see where this takes them. Also the perfect scenario part of the thread you metioned I believe the numbers are scaled quite a bite down but perhaps they're right. Now, if AdBlock was the BIG issue with them not reaching their full potential from sponsors they shouldn't overlay the commercials in a way that adblock can block them (not sure of the proper term). You take a break and run them over the stream. Nobody cares if they miss 30 seconds of crowd shot when 50% of the streams run time is dedicated to crowd shots  Now, to finish up if they indeed were to make around $50,000 per event they would need to find a way to actually run a tournament for less than $50,000 drop dead titles, cut production, run said tournament online. That being said I seriously doubt they only pull in 50k ad revenue given that the FNATIC article says they pull in 50 million in revenue in 2009 and MLG wasn't even that popular in 2009 and I don't see that many MLG shirts when I walk down the streets, so I would assume most of the revenue is from sponsors.
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On February 16 2012 05:40 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:19 shankems2000 wrote:
As InControl or Pain user said on sotg last night, they're trying to make it a self sustaining business. Meaning relying not on sponsors but on revenue from viewers and lovers of e-sports. It's only $20 bucks. Even you starving college kids can swing that much. I can spare a lot of $20s. Lost 90 of them last friday playing poker and 10 last night. too bad I buy on RELATIVE value like most people. MLG is not a value compared to lessor priced GSL or other FREE tounaments. MLG is putting cart before horse here. Or collection plate without offering a trip to heaven or even close.
That's a lot of twenties to lose playing poker in one evening. You could have bought MLG for everybody.
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On February 16 2012 06:06 evoli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:40 tdt wrote:On February 16 2012 04:19 shankems2000 wrote:
As InControl or Pain user said on sotg last night, they're trying to make it a self sustaining business. Meaning relying not on sponsors but on revenue from viewers and lovers of e-sports. It's only $20 bucks. Even you starving college kids can swing that much. I can spare a lot of $20s. Lost 90 of them last friday playing poker and 10 last night. too bad I buy on RELATIVE value like most people. MLG is not a value compared to lessor priced GSL or other FREE tounaments. MLG is putting cart before horse here. Or collection plate without offering a trip to heaven or even close. That's a lot of twenties to lose playing poker in one evening. You could have bought MLG for everybody.
Like him I assume I would rather waste my money than pay MLG for anything.
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Bought my ticket. I cant wait!
Having a LAN to celebrate! Well done MLG!
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On February 16 2012 06:06 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:38 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 16 2012 05:12 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:09 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 05:02 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:44 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:43 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:37 drgoats wrote:
[quote]
Yes you did, but since then they have doubled their content. Of course things will have to change. It is an unfortunate situation but people with gold passes need to realize that doubling their content doesn't come free. No, but we should reasonably be able to expect that when we pay for "access to all content" that's what we'll be receiving. If MLG needs to up their fee they can do so when it's time for us to renew. Not suddenly charge for something for which we've already paid. That is my point. Then we would have to wait almost an entire year for MLG to put out extra tournaments. It is not feasible for them to have these without increasing the price. If we want these tournaments now then we have to pay. I think what you're going to find is that most people don't want these tournaments. That might be the case and then they wont pay. That could be a good thing. In the end though, I think you, myself and most of the hardcore fans are going to be paying for our SC2 content. I used to have the charity mentality about SC2. "MLG needs my money so esports will survive!" Except now, when I give them my money, they can't give me the product that they promised. I'm going to be taking my dollars elsewhere. This is a good chance for NASL to scoop up some people. My point is that the GSL is already doing it, MLG is joining ship and I do not think it will be too long before the other big organizers join up too. As many sources in the industry have stated, there needs to be a new way to increase revenue other than advertising. And as of right now, charging customers more seems like the best answer. Hopefully they come up with a better solution but I personally do not think they will. GSL holds a UFC type idea. Where their company does it the best, so they can charge the viewer for it. MLG is not the best, so this won't fly. Why does their need to be a new way to increase revenue? Why not use the revenue you already have more wisely? Why not instead use the Winter Areana to gain 400k concurrents becaues it would have been the most watched tournament that weekend then negotiate with sponsors before the next event for more moeny because their product now receives more views. So on and so forth until professional gaming plateaus. However, MLG offers the best live content for many people in the States. I basically am paying upwards of $100 for GSL VODS so I personally would not mind paying around that much for all of MLGs content. There are a couple of posts in this thread that explain that they will generate more revenue by charging the viewers than they would off of advertising alone. And of course they want to generate more revenue, especially since their investors will be happier and more willing to invest more money. If MLG grows then eSports grows as well. This article goes into to it better than I could: http://wellplayed.org/forum/articles/thread/why-mlgs-winter-arena-being-ppv-is-the-bIt is possible that MLG is jumping the gun on this and could have waited until eSports plateaued but I still see this being the future of eSports and we were going to end up here eventually. Please don't get me wrong I'm not missing this event for anything even if I don't watch live I will be seeing the VODs. Obviously they have to generate more revenue or find better uses for their revenue. My issue is relatively other companys can do without charing the end use and are sucessful. This MLG product right here. This very event we are discussion if it were free could pull in a much higher revenue in this scenario. This tournament so far has been the most expensive one for them to run. They got the best players flying from all over the fucking world. There is a competing tournament during the same weekend that they would blow out of the water. Assembly would have 2 viewers. I don't think that is a good thing for us, but it is said to emphasise my point about how awesome this event is going to be. This event then proceedes to get 500,000 concurrents because so far it has the most sex appeal of any tournament on a global scale. WCG style event that is actually good and actually competitive? With the massive boost in viewers they could aruge that for the next event they need a 10% increase in money per commercial run. This simply is not the event to do this in. They could see where this takes them. Also the perfect scenario part of the thread you metioned I believe the numbers are scaled quite a bite down but perhaps they're right. Now, if AdBlock was the BIG issue with them not reaching their full potential from sponsors they shouldn't overlay the commercials in a way that adblock can block them (not sure of the proper term). You take a break and run them over the stream. Nobody cares if they miss 30 seconds of crowd shot when 50% of the streams run time is dedicated to crowd shots Now, to finish up if they indeed were to make around $50,000 per event they would need to find a way to actually run a tournament for less than $50,000 drop dead titles, cut production, run said tournament online. That being said I seriously doubt they only pull in 50k ad revenue given that the FNATIC article says they pull in 50 million in revenue in 2009 and MLG wasn't even that popular in 2009 and I don't see that many MLG shirts when I walk down the streets, so I would assume most of the revenue is from sponsors.
MLG I can almost promise you was counting there investors as revenue. Venture capitialists see the potential in this business and throw money at it, often times thinking they are going to make money faster than they will. They probably did not make nearly enough from selling passes or sponsorships to even come close to running a business. Also if $20 for a 3 day event is to much think of all the qualifiers that you saw for free that also have to be paid for somehow. That is a lot of starcraft and a lot of money that has to be paid for somehow.
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On February 16 2012 04:28 Escape wrote:
Just want to remind everyone that you pay about 2x as much for PPV events like UFC, and it's only for 1 evening.
You get 3 solid evenings of matches for only $20 here with MLG. Yes, I know, you may not think the quality is as comparable, but at least it's cheaper and for more.
I think we should see how good their content is be before we judge.
Go check out how well UFC PPV was doing in it's second year in existence. Guess what? Not that well. In fact they were going bankrupt and it wasn't until Zuffa and Dana White got involved that UFC started to pick up some traction. The true explosion was the Ultimate Fighter on FX which basically provided people "free"(as long as you had cable/satellite aka no extra PPV cost) UFC fights to the masses. That first Ultimate Fighter picked up a fuck ton of fans mainly due to the Finale with Griffin vs Bonnar. It was completely amazing and UFC lucked out with that being broadcasted to the masses.
SC2 has no blood, SC2 has no violence, SC2 has no sex, also the format doesn't lend itself for a PPV atmosphere. UFC succeeds because it's a show of the best fighters the sport can bring in a 3-4 hour window TOPS. UFC wouldn't get anywhere near as many PPV buys if it was over a 3 day event because that crowd doesn't have the time to waste over 3 days. Also it would dilute the hell out of the product when UFC is all about only asking for money for the absolute best matches. Even now when a card isn't the strongest they'll throw it on FX for free or FUEL since they've cut deals with them.
This MLG PPV will succeed in the short term because of the gullibility of the community by MLG equating themselves making money with the growth of "eSports". Long term, they're fucked unless they become a monopoly through exclusivity deals with popular teams/players since they have PPV money and thus being able to hold more events with more prize money. People need to ask themselves how much SC2 are you prepared to pay for before you just say fuck it and move onto something else. How much are you prepared to take on to make sure a business like MLG who has been in the red for the past 10 years and is now banking on you to give them money to make sure they are profitable. Not my responsibility, I'd rather give my money to Shoutcraft and eventually grow that incrementally. At least then I don't have to deal with Extended Series.
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Take a minute of your life and read this :
I just paid more last month to upgrade the bandwitch of my internet so i can watch more Streaming.... Looks like i will have to pay more again to enjoy it. But hey! That's the only chance we have to bring e-sport on a whole new scale and it's good for Both Assembly and MLG.
This will be benefit for Assembly (around 25k viewers) who will gain new subscribers/viewers from MLG (hit 85k viewers last year)so they will gain extra income from web ads.
This will allow Assembly to grow, and TBH MLG > Assemblyx100 in term of profesionnalism.
In the other hand, If 1 subscriber for $20 generates as much money as 2000 viewers.... I mean, why not? People are gonna pay for this to support e-sport if they wanna see someday their favorite pro gamers making a living from the game they always loved.
We cant deny this any longer ; Koreans flooded and owned the sc2 foreign market.. We need bigger Prizes pool in order to catch up... So maybe our best foreigners will be more devoted to the game knowing that you can make a living from it. It will even bring new progamers in the scene, you know... the real brains who actually had the choice to become Doctor but instead became a Pro Gamer ... That would be totaly sick and it would bring the game to a new level.
This was my optimistic thoughts of the day for a best sc2 scene.
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On February 16 2012 06:06 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:38 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 16 2012 05:12 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:09 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 05:02 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:44 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:43 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:37 drgoats wrote:
[quote]
Yes you did, but since then they have doubled their content. Of course things will have to change. It is an unfortunate situation but people with gold passes need to realize that doubling their content doesn't come free. No, but we should reasonably be able to expect that when we pay for "access to all content" that's what we'll be receiving. If MLG needs to up their fee they can do so when it's time for us to renew. Not suddenly charge for something for which we've already paid. That is my point. Then we would have to wait almost an entire year for MLG to put out extra tournaments. It is not feasible for them to have these without increasing the price. If we want these tournaments now then we have to pay. I think what you're going to find is that most people don't want these tournaments. That might be the case and then they wont pay. That could be a good thing. In the end though, I think you, myself and most of the hardcore fans are going to be paying for our SC2 content. I used to have the charity mentality about SC2. "MLG needs my money so esports will survive!" Except now, when I give them my money, they can't give me the product that they promised. I'm going to be taking my dollars elsewhere. This is a good chance for NASL to scoop up some people. My point is that the GSL is already doing it, MLG is joining ship and I do not think it will be too long before the other big organizers join up too. As many sources in the industry have stated, there needs to be a new way to increase revenue other than advertising. And as of right now, charging customers more seems like the best answer. Hopefully they come up with a better solution but I personally do not think they will. GSL holds a UFC type idea. Where their company does it the best, so they can charge the viewer for it. MLG is not the best, so this won't fly. Why does their need to be a new way to increase revenue? Why not use the revenue you already have more wisely? Why not instead use the Winter Areana to gain 400k concurrents becaues it would have been the most watched tournament that weekend then negotiate with sponsors before the next event for more moeny because their product now receives more views. So on and so forth until professional gaming plateaus. However, MLG offers the best live content for many people in the States. I basically am paying upwards of $100 for GSL VODS so I personally would not mind paying around that much for all of MLGs content. There are a couple of posts in this thread that explain that they will generate more revenue by charging the viewers than they would off of advertising alone. And of course they want to generate more revenue, especially since their investors will be happier and more willing to invest more money. If MLG grows then eSports grows as well. This article goes into to it better than I could: http://wellplayed.org/forum/articles/thread/why-mlgs-winter-arena-being-ppv-is-the-bIt is possible that MLG is jumping the gun on this and could have waited until eSports plateaued but I still see this being the future of eSports and we were going to end up here eventually. Please don't get me wrong I'm not missing this event for anything even if I don't watch live I will be seeing the VODs. Obviously they have to generate more revenue or find better uses for their revenue. My issue is relatively other companys can do without charing the end use and are sucessful. This MLG product right here. This very event we are discussion if it were free could pull in a much higher revenue in this scenario. This tournament so far has been the most expensive one for them to run. They got the best players flying from all over the fucking world. There is a competing tournament during the same weekend that they would blow out of the water. Assembly would have 2 viewers. I don't think that is a good thing for us, but it is said to emphasise my point about how awesome this event is going to be. This event then proceedes to get 500,000 concurrents because so far it has the most sex appeal of any tournament on a global scale. WCG style event that is actually good and actually competitive? With the massive boost in viewers they could aruge that for the next event they need a 10% increase in money per commercial run. This simply is not the event to do this in. They could see where this takes them. Also the perfect scenario part of the thread you metioned I believe the numbers are scaled quite a bite down but perhaps they're right. Now, if AdBlock was the BIG issue with them not reaching their full potential from sponsors they shouldn't overlay the commercials in a way that adblock can block them (not sure of the proper term). You take a break and run them over the stream. Nobody cares if they miss 30 seconds of crowd shot when 50% of the streams run time is dedicated to crowd shots Now, to finish up if they indeed were to make around $50,000 per event they would need to find a way to actually run a tournament for less than $50,000 drop dead titles, cut production, run said tournament online. That being said I seriously doubt they only pull in 50k ad revenue given that the FNATIC article says they pull in 50 million in revenue in 2009 and MLG wasn't even that popular in 2009 and I don't see that many MLG shirts when I walk down the streets, so I would assume most of the revenue is from sponsors.
No one really knows the figures they could pull in if they went free vs if they charge the $20. But you have to hope that MLG discussed both options and decided that this was the best path for them. It was bound to piss off many of their consumers but they are banking that this event will be such a success that it will fuel further events. And when I say success I do not mean the amount of viewers but rather word of mouth about how great of an event this was and that it was well worth the $20.
I do want to add some notes about my view since I seem to be one of the only ones justifying MLGs approach and it might give a little light on my approach.
My points are that I think I understand why MLG is doing this although I think that the process was sloppy at best.
I personally think that the price is a little too much for the masses. However, as I said in one of my previous posts, if the $20 that MLG charged included the qualifiers and they were not free I think there would be less people complaining.
I think that the discount for gold members could be a little more significant but definitely not free.
Ultimately, I think they should have held off on this tournament for a few months so that they could have done a little more research and prepared their viewers a little more.
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On February 16 2012 06:14 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 06:06 NoobSkills wrote:On February 16 2012 05:38 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 16 2012 05:12 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 05:09 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 05:02 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On February 16 2012 04:44 drgoats wrote:On February 16 2012 04:43 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
No, but we should reasonably be able to expect that when we pay for "access to all content" that's what we'll be receiving. If MLG needs to up their fee they can do so when it's time for us to renew. Not suddenly charge for something for which we've already paid.
That is my point. Then we would have to wait almost an entire year for MLG to put out extra tournaments. It is not feasible for them to have these without increasing the price. If we want these tournaments now then we have to pay. I think what you're going to find is that most people don't want these tournaments. That might be the case and then they wont pay. That could be a good thing. In the end though, I think you, myself and most of the hardcore fans are going to be paying for our SC2 content. I used to have the charity mentality about SC2. "MLG needs my money so esports will survive!" Except now, when I give them my money, they can't give me the product that they promised. I'm going to be taking my dollars elsewhere. This is a good chance for NASL to scoop up some people. My point is that the GSL is already doing it, MLG is joining ship and I do not think it will be too long before the other big organizers join up too. As many sources in the industry have stated, there needs to be a new way to increase revenue other than advertising. And as of right now, charging customers more seems like the best answer. Hopefully they come up with a better solution but I personally do not think they will. GSL holds a UFC type idea. Where their company does it the best, so they can charge the viewer for it. MLG is not the best, so this won't fly. Why does their need to be a new way to increase revenue? Why not use the revenue you already have more wisely? Why not instead use the Winter Areana to gain 400k concurrents becaues it would have been the most watched tournament that weekend then negotiate with sponsors before the next event for more moeny because their product now receives more views. So on and so forth until professional gaming plateaus. However, MLG offers the best live content for many people in the States. I basically am paying upwards of $100 for GSL VODS so I personally would not mind paying around that much for all of MLGs content. There are a couple of posts in this thread that explain that they will generate more revenue by charging the viewers than they would off of advertising alone. And of course they want to generate more revenue, especially since their investors will be happier and more willing to invest more money. If MLG grows then eSports grows as well. This article goes into to it better than I could: http://wellplayed.org/forum/articles/thread/why-mlgs-winter-arena-being-ppv-is-the-bIt is possible that MLG is jumping the gun on this and could have waited until eSports plateaued but I still see this being the future of eSports and we were going to end up here eventually. Please don't get me wrong I'm not missing this event for anything even if I don't watch live I will be seeing the VODs. Obviously they have to generate more revenue or find better uses for their revenue. My issue is relatively other companys can do without charing the end use and are sucessful. This MLG product right here. This very event we are discussion if it were free could pull in a much higher revenue in this scenario. This tournament so far has been the most expensive one for them to run. They got the best players flying from all over the fucking world. There is a competing tournament during the same weekend that they would blow out of the water. Assembly would have 2 viewers. I don't think that is a good thing for us, but it is said to emphasise my point about how awesome this event is going to be. This event then proceedes to get 500,000 concurrents because so far it has the most sex appeal of any tournament on a global scale. WCG style event that is actually good and actually competitive? With the massive boost in viewers they could aruge that for the next event they need a 10% increase in money per commercial run. This simply is not the event to do this in. They could see where this takes them. Also the perfect scenario part of the thread you metioned I believe the numbers are scaled quite a bite down but perhaps they're right. Now, if AdBlock was the BIG issue with them not reaching their full potential from sponsors they shouldn't overlay the commercials in a way that adblock can block them (not sure of the proper term). You take a break and run them over the stream. Nobody cares if they miss 30 seconds of crowd shot when 50% of the streams run time is dedicated to crowd shots Now, to finish up if they indeed were to make around $50,000 per event they would need to find a way to actually run a tournament for less than $50,000 drop dead titles, cut production, run said tournament online. That being said I seriously doubt they only pull in 50k ad revenue given that the FNATIC article says they pull in 50 million in revenue in 2009 and MLG wasn't even that popular in 2009 and I don't see that many MLG shirts when I walk down the streets, so I would assume most of the revenue is from sponsors. MLG I can almost promise you was counting there investors as revenue. Venture capitialists see the potential in this business and throw money at it, often times thinking they are going to make money faster than they will. They probably did not make nearly enough from selling passes or sponsorships to even come close to running a business. Also if $20 for a 3 day event is to much think of all the qualifiers that you saw for free that also have to be paid for somehow. That is a lot of starcraft and a lot of money that has to be paid for somehow.
I will say this again. This tournament is going to be awesome. I have no barcrafts nearby, so I will be paying, but I still don't think I should have to. I am just not willing to miss an awesome event for $20 but I have enough that 20 doens't wreck me. What I do hope is that I am the only one watching the games and MLG has to change their strategy midway through. I can't find the venture capital thread or links right now, but from what I recall they at most took 30Million and the the least 10Million from venture capitalists. Even on the high note they still had 20 million on the books for AD revenue. 6 Events in my opinion should not cost 20 million and if they do they're doing it wrong. That was just the 2009 scenario and MLG has expoded since the end of 2010. Again It isn't that I will mind my pockets being 20 dollars lighter it is that in the first place if you need the customer's money you're misusing you funding.
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EPT
