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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 07:43 OwNaGeForce wrote:
I'm just trying to think how I'm going to deal with late game TvZ, I mean, I already thought snipe was fairly difficult against ultras....its effective but in a head on attack, an ultra/bling/ling army is going to still inflict a ton of damage. Snipe is really used vs BL/infestor/corruptor armies but like now, what? I have to mass vikings and thors to deal? What about the inevitable 100 ling follow up? or a remax with ultras? Land my vikings? ummmm, k. I think this nerf is going to lead to even more turtling behind pfs and the like, otherwise any kind of tech switch by zerg will just roll terrans.
I'm even more confused with this because I thought the game was fairly balanced atm. Code S is what, 4 toss, 3 ter, and 1 zerg? Not exactly the old gomtvt we used to know. I'm confused =(((
master terran
Ah u shouldn't. Father-Kim knows best for us all...
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ultras are manageable since marauders do just fine. its mainly just the broodlords that the terrans will have trouble dealing with. and a bl+ultra would just be too hard to handle (but if you let a zerg get both you probably dead anyways lol)
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United States13143 Posts
On February 11 2012 07:42 OrangeSoda wrote:
ghosts with + 3 damage do more damage shooting now compared to actually sniping i think.
hilariously, I'm pretty sure this is true. I think they shoot faster too.
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On February 11 2012 07:46 Tulkas25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:37 Vague wrote:
The three terran players left in diamond league are switching to zerg today. This is a sad day. Believe me its a struggle around here..AT least i don't get much tvts anymore 
I pray for TvT every time I queue up... only get it about 1/10 games though... no exaggeration.
On topic: I really like the suggestion of nerfing ghost damage to massive instead. Maybe a reduction in general as well but not so drastic... as of now ghosts went from being essential to trivial.
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 11 2012 07:40 HunterK wrote:
Snipe damage penalty vs massive woujld been much better IMO.
Are there any other units like these? As far as I know, units only get bonuses vs units, not penalties.
In Kennigit's interview with Browder, one of the things he said was simplicity has to take precedent over design. So, for example, even if the balance says a unit should be 10 + 10 vs flying, +5 vs biological +7 vs psyonic, writing that down isn't practical. Similarly, I think having 50 - 25 vs massive is just inherently more confusing to think about compared to the solution they're trying.
I know you're going to say "olololo it's not confusing" but think about the whole demographic, not just the pros and stream watchers. It's awkward to suddenly introduce damage penalties if you've never had them before.
If there have been damage penalty units previously, feel free to ignore this 
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Wow!!!! Terrans are fcked late game TvZ imo....
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On February 11 2012 07:49 aintz wrote:
ultras are manageable since marauders do just fine. its mainly just the broodlords that the terrans will have trouble dealing with. and a bl+ultra would just be too hard to handle (but if you let a zerg get both you probably dead anyways lol)
I honestly can't see marauders as the solution. Overmake marauders just a tad and you will have a guaranteed loss to a remax on slings or more BLs.
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What if Zerg trade the armies effectively and then switch from BLs to Ultras and mass lings? I think Terran will need to work much harder now it seems.
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On February 11 2012 07:44 graNite wrote:
Thors do nothing against corrupters, because they are armored. Vikings are the counter to corrupters, but terran cant switch tech like zerg can, thats why terran needed the ghosts to have an allrounder. Of course you can snipe everything, but all the players who say that forget that a marine can attack everything, too....
you still had to micro a ton to use ghosts properly vs zerg and they are very expensive.
its not like every terran rushes for ghosts in tvz and maxes out on them because you can kill every z unit.
ghosts are just a late game investment and not right on your techpath as infestors are.
i dont understand the drama about the snipe: does it look to easy when broodlords die in seconds? did you ever saw marines and marauders die in seconds to storms or colossi? nobody is changing them because T SOLVED IT WITH MICRO.
i feel like every problem t has, has to be solved with micro. dont want to die to banelings? split marines. dont want to die to storms? dodge. dont want to die to zealots? kite them all day long.
in my opinion, it is just the wrong way of approaching the problem.
i hope somebody criticizes my post!
How do you micro against Snipe?
They cast snipe and it just hits you...>_>
What micro could possibly be involved...
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While I do agree snipe needed a nerf, this is just way too much. Late game TvZ is going to be much much harder now. And it wasn't like every terran was doing it with ease and efficiency, only the top few pulled it off.
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On February 11 2012 07:49 stablol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:04 Rye. wrote:On February 11 2012 06:55 ThatGuy89 wrote:On February 11 2012 06:52 Rye. wrote:
Sigh,
Why nerf the unit that takes a silly amount of APM to work. Should buff and nerf the a-move broodlords so when microd they are better, but when not mircod they are weaker. Same for ultras. I get so angry when i lose to a-move tactics. No wonder i dont play much 1v1 anymore. (i play terran)
Also, zerg players should bear in mind that they actually get to use T3.
In TvP
Thors and battlecruisers are a no go. There are a million threads about these. They just dont work. Dont believe me? search the forums
In TvZ
Thors dont hold up that well in late game but they can be useful, but its likely something else will be a better use of resources. Broods deal with them easily, ultras arnt bad either, and mass zerglings do well since terrans will be going marauder / ghost / viking (will have few helions or tanks, maybe marines).
Battlecruisers dont work since mass corrupter is easy and common and then they turn into broods. BC's cant be massed. high cost, slow build time, who the hell has a high number of starports with tech labs? also...
In both TvZ and TvP, getting Ground, Mech and air upgrades is near impossible.
In terms of T3 and their counters, terran has it bad.
As for ravens. Once you've cast Seeker missile, your raven becomes a useless chunk of metal that gobbles supply. Autoturrents are only good for harass, and for cost of raven and time for energy, they suck. Better having 2 marines.
Seriously David Kim, make mechanics more rewarding for Zerg (and protoss) instead of nerfing terran because their good mechanics can be powerful. im sorry are you calling snipe a 'good mechanic'? im not sure if troll or just stupid.... As in micro mechanics. I cant stand how a-movey broods and ultras are. Same for a lot of other units. Stutter step may be "easy" but can you do it whilst macroing? Vikings are king of the skies, but only if micro is applied. Can u macro at the same time. Banshees, bad when stood still, thats why they get micro'd emp's and snipes from ghost require accuracy and apm. Tanks need sieging and unsieging and decent positioning. now, can u do all the above at the same time whilst macroing? What do Protoss and Zerg get???? a-move. Zerglings, collosus, zealots, archons, broodlords, ultras, hydras, roaches, banelings, corruptors, immortals, dark templars. Non of those require much micro, maybe a baneling split or something, but thats about it. Infestors. great, high templar. great. pheonixes and mutas. great. but thats about the limit. i have no problem with these. wat. if your units are the best they should be the hardest to use
its the other way round.
Its the micro that makes them the best. have you ever seen marines and marauders against banes, but the MMM just stand still? marine marauder vs zealot, but MM stnad still?
A unit should be better when controlled by a GM than when controlled by a gold player. unfortunaltely this is not the case for most toss and zerg units.
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Well looks like this is the patch where I start playing again, 3 seasons of not playing because of T imbalance was a long time....
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On February 11 2012 07:53 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:44 graNite wrote:
Thors do nothing against corrupters, because they are armored. Vikings are the counter to corrupters, but terran cant switch tech like zerg can, thats why terran needed the ghosts to have an allrounder. Of course you can snipe everything, but all the players who say that forget that a marine can attack everything, too....
you still had to micro a ton to use ghosts properly vs zerg and they are very expensive.
its not like every terran rushes for ghosts in tvz and maxes out on them because you can kill every z unit.
ghosts are just a late game investment and not right on your techpath as infestors are.
i dont understand the drama about the snipe: does it look to easy when broodlords die in seconds? did you ever saw marines and marauders die in seconds to storms or colossi? nobody is changing them because T SOLVED IT WITH MICRO.
i feel like every problem t has, has to be solved with micro. dont want to die to banelings? split marines. dont want to die to storms? dodge. dont want to die to zealots? kite them all day long.
in my opinion, it is just the wrong way of approaching the problem.
i hope somebody criticizes my post! How do you micro against Snipe? They cast snipe and it just hits you...>_> What micro could possibly be involved...
same with fungal or feedback? that is not the point...
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 11 2012 07:42 OrangeSoda wrote:
ghosts with + 3 damage do more damage shooting now compared to actually sniping i think.
This makes me think about a solution where Snipe took double penalty against armor, kind of like zealot attacks.
Assuming Snipe reverted to 45 base damange - 2 * armor...
An Ultralisk has 1 natural armor. 45 - 2 * (1) = 43
A fully upgraded Ultralisk has 6 armor. 45 - 2 * (6) = 33
You could fiddle around with the ratio, even making the penalty *3. Basically the point is to try to punish Zerg players who don't invest in flier carapace... It also gives a strategic counter to Snipe, as opposed to only a tactical one.
Dunno :\ I think there are better solutions than the one Blizzard is trying but let's see what happens.
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On February 11 2012 07:51 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:40 HunterK wrote:
Snipe damage penalty vs massive woujld been much better IMO. Are there any other units like these? As far as I know, units only get bonuses vs units, not penalties. In Kennigit's interview with Browder, one of the things he said was simplicity has to take precedent over design. So, for example, even if the balance says a unit should be 10 + 10 vs flying, +5 vs biological +7 vs psyonic, writing that down isn't practical. Similarly, I think having 50 - 25 vs massive is just inherently more confusing to think about compared to the solution they're trying. I know you're going to say "olololo it's not confusing" but think about the whole demographic, not just the pros and stream watchers. It's awkward to suddenly introduce damage penalties if you've never had them before. If there have been damage penalty units previously, feel free to ignore this
I think you're right in that there aren't damage penalty units, but THIS IS STARCRAFT we are talking about... it's not supposed to be simple, it's not supposed to be a game you can understand at a cursory glance. Much of what makes SC2/BW the great RTS's that they are is their complexity. Could they not just give zerg massive units a unique armor type that would take less damage from snipes? To me that whole explanation by Browder seems like sort of a cop out..
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suddenly i feel like blizzard has a full ear for its community, apm change is tha best
CPM are still pretty useless imo, its hard to sort clicks by useful and useless especially when counting each move command as a full command.
<3 blizzard
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On February 11 2012 07:31 ToastieNL wrote:The more I think about this, the madder I become! Zerg lategame: Make Moar Infestors/Broodlord/Queens! Terran counters with Ghost! Zerg switches from T3 army to mass roach/ling. Oh wait, Tanks... lol, Terran has 20 Ghost + 20 Tanks... well, dorp/nydus, get him out of position. Oh no, that requires micro from Zerg: IMBALANCE! NERF! Soo... how to deal with that now, demand Terran to micro and split Marines, Tanks, Medivacs, Vikings and micro some ghost for EMP against a Zerg that clicks 1, than a, and that his hatchery hotkey, s, and holds ZZZZZZZ?? LOL. just LOL. Time to polish some of the All- ins! I just don't see another way 
Sigh i can't agree more..Zergs even make 20 mutalisks that they don't even use to harass many times after an initial poke.at least around diamond low master lvls.Every remax of the zerg late game is a suprise..Become to immobile as a terran and u can be nydused into small pieces trying to reposition etc.But no zergs never do that...We drop like bitches even if we don't really have the apm for it mostly in order to reposition our armies and move inches into the zerg creep of terror.Zergs see a big wall of units and buildings and they just try to bash their heads into it.they don't ever ever even the pro zergs try to abuse all the tools they have but that's another story....Everytime there is a terran problem people tell terrans to micro more..try more...everytime there is a zerg or protoss problem their units go into the enhancement room and get out of there with+ range or i don't know what.I love starcraft 2.Don't get me wrong i just hope that as time passes,Everyone will have the tools needed to play his race like he wants..Early game,mid game or late game and the era that the races dictated the way you HAVE to play the game.
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On February 11 2012 07:50 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:46 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 11 2012 07:37 Vague wrote:
The three terran players left in diamond league are switching to zerg today. This is a sad day. Believe me its a struggle around here..AT least i don't get much tvts anymore I pray for TvT every time I queue up... only get it about 1/10 games though... no exaggeration. On topic: I really like the suggestion of nerfing ghost damage to massive instead. Maybe a reduction in general as well but not so drastic... as of now ghosts went from being essential to trivial.
LOL I do the same, hope I get a TvT. Here is the issue, blord infestor is virtually unstoppable without ghosts. Is not the whole point of expensive units to be very powerful? I would be fine with this change of fungal was changed so it didn't utterly shut down vikings and make ghosts the only viable option.
The other part that frustrates me is that Blizz keeps feeling the need to make this game more newb friendly. Ghosts are one of, if not the hardest unit to control properly (srs hard to believe if your not a T) and they keep nerfing it. There is a reason you don't see any effective ghost usage below master, especially vs Protoss, you miss an EMP/Snipe and get fungaled, guess what? You lose.
As usual Blizzard is obviously trying to appease the thousands of people that hate seeing Terran dominate the GSL.
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On February 11 2012 07:17 Drmooose wrote:
As a midmasters zerg I don't like a lot of this patch. Mules=fine. Snipe was way overdone. As someone already pointed out ghosts no longer 1 shot banes...that was a nice micro advantage terrans had and seemed quite fair. While op en mass dropping the damage THAT much will pull the matchup heavily in zergs favor late game. In a matchup that. Is pretty even I hope blizz didn't go too far.
Pheonix range seems a bit to much as well. Honestly, I would have liked to see a 5 range pheonic with no beacon required. It'd fix toss troubles with mutas and wouldn't effect the late game as much. Let's not forget that mutas became popular because ffe/toss balls are too difficult to break post infestor nerf. By the time the beacon is done and upgraded tosses are better off getting mothership. A straight tech to 6 range pheonix will be interesting because there will be a lot of openings for Z tto roach infestor attack.
I agree that snipe 1-shotting banelings seems fair. I personally love all of these patch changes (even my phoenix one!) but I think that they should have made the base snipe damage 30 instead of 25. Not sure what that would do with broodlords, but it would probably be ok.
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On February 11 2012 07:56 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On February 11 2012 07:44 graNite wrote:
Thors do nothing against corrupters, because they are armored. Vikings are the counter to corrupters, but terran cant switch tech like zerg can, thats why terran needed the ghosts to have an allrounder. Of course you can snipe everything, but all the players who say that forget that a marine can attack everything, too....
you still had to micro a ton to use ghosts properly vs zerg and they are very expensive.
its not like every terran rushes for ghosts in tvz and maxes out on them because you can kill every z unit.
ghosts are just a late game investment and not right on your techpath as infestors are.
i dont understand the drama about the snipe: does it look to easy when broodlords die in seconds? did you ever saw marines and marauders die in seconds to storms or colossi? nobody is changing them because T SOLVED IT WITH MICRO.
i feel like every problem t has, has to be solved with micro. dont want to die to banelings? split marines. dont want to die to storms? dodge. dont want to die to zealots? kite them all day long.
in my opinion, it is just the wrong way of approaching the problem.
i hope somebody criticizes my post! How do you micro against Snipe? They cast snipe and it just hits you...>_> What micro could possibly be involved... same with fungal or feedback? that is not the point...
I was just responding to what he said, there's no micro response to snipe. Something else would have to be introduced.
And spreading is what you do against Fungal....
Snipe is similar to feedback in that it just hits you...>_>
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EPT
