On February 11 2012 05:51 Markwerf wrote: I love the phoenix buff. Just a upgrade at the fleet beacon is genious, muta's will still be awesome if you surprise toss with them but the game where toss simply can't come back while zerg keeps massing air on maps like tal darim will be fixed a bit. Excellent change.
Ghost nerf seems a bit too hard. They were too good against broodlords and maybe ultralisks but now snipe is too weak I think. It becomes a niche spell against spellcasters and is completely useless against zealots and probably even ultra's and maybe broodlords. I would have loved to have seen a raven buff with this so we can get to see some seeker missile action, it's the coolest spell in the game and should really get a slight buff.
MULE change is good obviously, the idea of high yield can be fun but needed a few changes to make it fair.
Looking at the ghost spells... EMP is great damage vs but a niche spell vs . Snipe is a good damage spell vs and a niche spell vs .
This change keeps snipe a niche spell vs toss but makes it also a niche spell vs zerg.
This also makes ghosts even less useful in TvT (pretty much makes early ghost play useless).
Why are people complaining that this makes ghosts useless in TvT? (cant remember the last time i saw ghosts in pro TvT) There have always been plenty of units that didnt have a role in certain matchups.
I think the Phoenix buff is going to work better than most people think; you would only NEED the range upgrade (if you're going phoenix to counter muta) when the muta flock gets to 20+ and by then the fleet beacon + upgrade shouldn't be that much of a resource commitment.
I like these changes, though I think changing it so that ghosts deal very little damage (25) vs massive would have worked better, since I know a lot of people use ghosts to snipe banelings. I don't even care that they kill broodlords absurdly fast, i just want my ultras to not get pwned
On February 11 2012 05:51 Markwerf wrote: I love the phoenix buff. Just a upgrade at the fleet beacon is genious, muta's will still be awesome if you surprise toss with them but the game where toss simply can't come back while zerg keeps massing air on maps like tal darim will be fixed a bit. Excellent change.
Ghost nerf seems a bit too hard. They were too good against broodlords and maybe ultralisks but now snipe is too weak I think. It becomes a niche spell against spellcasters and is completely useless against zealots and probably even ultra's and maybe broodlords. I would have loved to have seen a raven buff with this so we can get to see some seeker missile action, it's the coolest spell in the game and should really get a slight buff.
MULE change is good obviously, the idea of high yield can be fun but needed a few changes to make it fair.
Looking at the ghost spells... EMP is great damage vs but a niche spell vs . Snipe is a good damage spell vs and a niche spell vs .
This change keeps snipe a niche spell vs toss but makes it also a niche spell vs zerg.
This also makes ghosts even less useful in TvT (pretty much makes early ghost play useless).
Snipe is definitely not niche vs high templar.
It's not even niche vs Z, you just need 10 instead of 6. To me this says "oh I can only kill MOST of his broodlords rather than ALL of his broodlords."
On February 11 2012 05:24 Bobgrimly wrote: I really don't get all the terrans in this thread... Wah snipe is nerfed I can't play against zerg because my vikings will be fungaled..... That is singularly the most retarded statement EVER. Snipe is still as it was against infestors. (IT STILL DOES 45 DAMAGE TO INFESTORS) Now though instead of sniping the broodlords and auto winning you just switch target to the infestors guarding them and SNIPE THE INFESTOR. Now the broodlords have no protection and one viking can beat 50 broodlords (just might take a while)
Seriously anyone qqing about this change is just upset that they can't mass one unit to win. Oh no. Scanning is so hard.
You will be eaten alive, because you don't know what you are talking about and you write like you ate all wisdom there is in sc2..
Cloak ghost... run towards SLOWLY moving broodlords. If you can't see infestors scan... you can now see burrowed and a lot more... find infestors.... queue up snipes... goodbye infestors. They can't fungal ghosts when they get sniped. A zerg would have to see you coming and have taken plenty of steps to prevent that. At the same time vikings can be pot shotting the broodlords and forcing infestors to come to the front. This forces the infestors forward and makes them easy targets for cloaked ghosts.
There is nothing wrong with this scenario. I have seen it happen in many tvz games just with usually ghosts sniping EVERYTHING. Now they can snipe infestors then burn energy to lower broodlord hp if they want. But not quite so stupidly op as it was. Being able to queue up snipe on a unit means the zerg has no time to react. The broodlords just evaporate. At least now you run some risk as a terran from broodlords.
By plenty of steps to prevent cloaked ghosts you mean like morph single overseer?
By morph single overseer I take it you failed to notice GHOSTS CAN SNIPE OVERSEERS AND VIKINGS HAVE STUPID RANGE.
You make it sound like zerg has it easy. You obviously have never watched or played in high level games. Overseers do not live long when ghosts are around... or worse... ghosts and vikings. Zerg usually has to morph like 5 if the terran is doing his job just to prevent autoloss.
The point is yes the zerg can do some things to win... but the terran also has plenty of tools to use and now just has to rely on something other than MASS SNIPE LULZ.
This is called balance. When you can't win with just one unit and the enemy has to use multiple units to counter your counters and vice versa.
And if you talk about approaching broodlords then you have never approached a tank line knowing you will lose half your forces just getting to it... before you can do damage. (that is hyperbole but I figured that was how you structure your arguments)
lol, so you snipe overseers and than stare at infestors with no energy.. :D Man, seriously, put your shit together and stop writing essays lacking any sign of logic. You telling me to go in with Vikings/Ghosts to snipe 2-3 overseers? This is your adivce? Just answer yes/no so I know our conversation isn't waste of time..
If you aren't blind.... use vikings on overseers which have to be at the front to SEE GHOSTS. They don't have scan range on their view....
Then if they pull their overseer back your vikings start sniping broodlords. If he brings forward infestors and an overseer (fungal DOESN'T ONE SHOT VIKINGS) you focus the overseer with your vikings while still sniping the infestors. Once detection is gone you go back to shooting broodlords like fish in a barrel knowing if he dares bring forward infestors you can snipe them with impunity.
I don't even play terran but I know that is SOOOO frustrating for a zerg. Unless you are silly enough to group your vikings and ghosts in one group on top of each other fungal is really not that great. And you can even marine split your vikings... guess what... one fungal per viking IS NOT COST EFFECTIVE.
Just because you expect to A move does not mean you should be able to. Use some micro instead of spamming snipe and you might just demolish zerg. Seriously so many terrans complaining about fungal... how do they beat fungal and banelings? Spread or don't engage from a grouped up position. Not always going to happen but you are not always going to win.
Also zerg has to do a lot of army control so don't complain about having to micro manage a battle please. That would be face palm worthy.
Could someone tell this guy hes way off? Hes not listening to me anymore.. Listen kid, you say "I don't even play terran" and then proceed to give me 443 advices like do this, this, this, this, this at the same time, if he does this, you do this and you win.. Wake up and stop writing in capitals as it only makes you look unmatured.
It's amusing when people expect perfect play from other people when very very few people are capable of doing it effectively.
"Marine split your vikings." <-- funniest thing ever.
On February 11 2012 05:55 AnYvia wrote: LOL I called the ghost change back when there was the MVP vs July in GSL Semifinal (I think). I think this will make terrans play a little more creatively late game.
You shouldn't have. Mvp was already ahead and July completely throw away his ultras. He sent them against CCs and let them all be sniped. He could have just killed every ghost right there. That's a horrible game to use as an example of 'overpowered snipe'. It's like a terran sending 20 tanks unsieged into a horde of zerglings and then complaining that zerglings are overpowered.
Okay, how about Nestea vs. MVP at Blizzcon on Shakuras?
Shakuras is a terrible map for TvZ.
Also, funny how it's always MVP who crops up in these example discussions.
Plus did you watch that game? Anyone who watches that and goes yep, nothing the zerg could have done there is BATSHIT INSANE. Nestea was in the tens of thousands of resources, maxed out, for about 10 minutes while he did literally nothing except kill the marines MVP sent out to die so he could remax on ghosts. It continues to baffle me what Nestea was thinking...200/200 and untold resources and he defends...aaaaah whaaaat.
On February 11 2012 06:01 ale_jrb wrote: The snipe nerf seems a bit extreme to me - late game zerg is already pretty darn good, and now there's no way to handle a tech switch.
The mule and pheonix changes are good, obviously.
Say what ? 20+ ghoust in late game can own any zerg army , you just need to kill oveersers and snipe the rest..add to this planetary in every choke , nukes.. drops .. Zerg later game army is very slow , teran bio not. Snipe changes was needed , terran is still very strong..just look at GSL . Imo PF still need a little nerf and terran will be fine ( even in mid game , killing PF its not good trade , you need mid size army to kill PF ,so terran now have simple safe expo , with that ), dunno maby less splash dmg , or take splash away and give PF air attack , it will be fair by me
On February 11 2012 06:03 forsooth wrote: Terran win rates continue go down across the board, nerf Terran more.
Seems like a good idea.
User was temp banned for this post.
I think it's more blizzard projecting equilizations among the races rather than wins. Zerg was nerfed at a time their win rates were lower than others. It's more about winning/losing for the right reasons, rather than winning/losing for race reasons.
On February 11 2012 05:55 AnYvia wrote: LOL I called the ghost change back when there was the MVP vs July in GSL Semifinal (I think). I think this will make terrans play a little more creatively late game.
You shouldn't have. Mvp was already ahead and July completely throw away his ultras. He sent them against CCs and let them all be sniped. He could have just killed every ghost right there. That's a horrible game to use as an example of 'overpowered snipe'. It's like a terran sending 20 tanks unsieged into a horde of zerglings and then complaining that zerglings are overpowered.
Okay, how about Nestea vs. MVP at Blizzcon on Shakuras?
Shakuras is a terrible map for TvZ.
Also, funny how it's always MVP who crops up in these example discussions.
Plus did you watch that game? Anyone who watches that and goes yep, nothing the zerg could have done there is BATSHIT INSANE. Nestea was in the tens of thousands of resources, maxed out, for about 10 minutes while he did literally nothing except kill the marines MVP sent out to die so he could remax on ghosts. It continues to baffle me what Nestea was thinking...200/200 and untold resources and he defends...aaaaah whaaaat.
I thought it was already agreed that Nestea pretty much threw that game away ==;
On February 11 2012 05:24 Bobgrimly wrote: I really don't get all the terrans in this thread... Wah snipe is nerfed I can't play against zerg because my vikings will be fungaled..... That is singularly the most retarded statement EVER. Snipe is still as it was against infestors. (IT STILL DOES 45 DAMAGE TO INFESTORS) Now though instead of sniping the broodlords and auto winning you just switch target to the infestors guarding them and SNIPE THE INFESTOR. Now the broodlords have no protection and one viking can beat 50 broodlords (just might take a while)
Seriously anyone qqing about this change is just upset that they can't mass one unit to win. Oh no. Scanning is so hard.
You will be eaten alive, because you don't know what you are talking about and you write like you ate all wisdom there is in sc2..
Cloak ghost... run towards SLOWLY moving broodlords. If you can't see infestors scan... you can now see burrowed and a lot more... find infestors.... queue up snipes... goodbye infestors. They can't fungal ghosts when they get sniped. A zerg would have to see you coming and have taken plenty of steps to prevent that. At the same time vikings can be pot shotting the broodlords and forcing infestors to come to the front. This forces the infestors forward and makes them easy targets for cloaked ghosts.
There is nothing wrong with this scenario. I have seen it happen in many tvz games just with usually ghosts sniping EVERYTHING. Now they can snipe infestors then burn energy to lower broodlord hp if they want. But not quite so stupidly op as it was. Being able to queue up snipe on a unit means the zerg has no time to react. The broodlords just evaporate. At least now you run some risk as a terran from broodlords.
By plenty of steps to prevent cloaked ghosts you mean like morph single overseer?
By morph single overseer I take it you failed to notice GHOSTS CAN SNIPE OVERSEERS AND VIKINGS HAVE STUPID RANGE.
You make it sound like zerg has it easy. You obviously have never watched or played in high level games. Overseers do not live long when ghosts are around... or worse... ghosts and vikings. Zerg usually has to morph like 5 if the terran is doing his job just to prevent autoloss.
The point is yes the zerg can do some things to win... but the terran also has plenty of tools to use and now just has to rely on something other than MASS SNIPE LULZ.
This is called balance. When you can't win with just one unit and the enemy has to use multiple units to counter your counters and vice versa.
And if you talk about approaching broodlords then you have never approached a tank line knowing you will lose half your forces just getting to it... before you can do damage. (that is hyperbole but I figured that was how you structure your arguments)
lol, so you snipe overseers and than stare at infestors with no energy.. :D Man, seriously, put your shit together and stop writing essays lacking any sign of logic. You telling me to go in with Vikings/Ghosts to snipe 2-3 overseers? This is your adivce? Just answer yes/no so I know our conversation isn't waste of time..
If you aren't blind.... use vikings on overseers which have to be at the front to SEE GHOSTS. They don't have scan range on their view....
Then if they pull their overseer back your vikings start sniping broodlords. If he brings forward infestors and an overseer (fungal DOESN'T ONE SHOT VIKINGS) you focus the overseer with your vikings while still sniping the infestors. Once detection is gone you go back to shooting broodlords like fish in a barrel knowing if he dares bring forward infestors you can snipe them with impunity.
I don't even play terran but I know that is SOOOO frustrating for a zerg. Unless you are silly enough to group your vikings and ghosts in one group on top of each other fungal is really not that great. And you can even marine split your vikings... guess what... one fungal per viking IS NOT COST EFFECTIVE.
Just because you expect to A move does not mean you should be able to. Use some micro instead of spamming snipe and you might just demolish zerg. Seriously so many terrans complaining about fungal... how do they beat fungal and banelings? Spread or don't engage from a grouped up position. Not always going to happen but you are not always going to win.
Also zerg has to do a lot of army control so don't complain about having to micro manage a battle please. That would be face palm worthy.
Could someone tell this guy hes way off? Hes not listening to me anymore.. Listen kid, you say "I don't even play terran" and then proceed to give me 443 advices like do this, this, this, this, this at the same time, if he does this, you do this and you win.. Wake up and stop writing in capitals as it only makes you look unmatured.
It's amusing when people expect perfect play from other people when very very few people are capable of doing it effectively.
"Marine split your vikings." <-- funniest thing ever.
LOL, I didn't even catch this.. :DDDD
Lots of people who think they understand the game very mad in this thread...
On February 11 2012 06:10 Sackings wrote: Why are people complaining that this makes ghosts useless in TvT? (cant remember the last time i saw ghosts in pro TvT) There have always been plenty of units that didnt have a role in certain matchups.
Who is complaining about TvT? Btw, in 1.4.4 they could make it so that opponent's camera imidiatelly jumps to location where nuklear launch is detected to make great effect of all ghost spells..
On February 11 2012 06:10 Sackings wrote: Why are people complaining that this makes ghosts useless in TvT? (cant remember the last time i saw ghosts in pro TvT) There have always been plenty of units that didnt have a role in certain matchups.
I use them to instant kill marines really fast early game but then again I hate mech v Mech.
I would prefer the phoenix upgrade to be on the cyber (just make it so it needs to have stargate to research it), but I dunno.
I feel like FFE into stargates into FB could be pretty good versus zerg. Carriers/phoenix/zealot feels like it could be pretty strong, provided you use your phoenix well.
On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
You know what's the problem here ? Shakuras fucking plateau.
Not snipe.
Mass ghost games are shakuras plateau games like 9 times to 10.
I think you can still easily split the map o.o and that mass ghosts still work. Earlier the ghosts would recharge so fast, like david says they don't really have to worry about energy.
Also you can 2 shot infestors now instead of 3 shot. So ghosts still work well vs BL/Infagestor, its just that they're better vs the infestor part now instead of the BL part, and do worse vs Ultralisks which make sense to me (ghosts good against bl/infestor, tanks good against ultras and infestors, vikings good vs BL)
But yeah like Noocta says, shakuras is way too easy to split and stuff. Maybe making even more (?) air space on such a map would help, by forcing terran to make even more turrets and so that the sensor tower isn't as good at sensing stuff on the edge of the maps? (but the map already has a shit ton of space haha). I guess zerg will just have to wait for HotS and/or map makers make sure they don't make a map too easily split in TvZ.
On February 11 2012 05:51 Markwerf wrote: I love the phoenix buff. Just a upgrade at the fleet beacon is genious, muta's will still be awesome if you surprise toss with them but the game where toss simply can't come back while zerg keeps massing air on maps like tal darim will be fixed a bit. Excellent change.
Ghost nerf seems a bit too hard. They were too good against broodlords and maybe ultralisks but now snipe is too weak I think. It becomes a niche spell against spellcasters and is completely useless against zealots and probably even ultra's and maybe broodlords. I would have loved to have seen a raven buff with this so we can get to see some seeker missile action, it's the coolest spell in the game and should really get a slight buff.
MULE change is good obviously, the idea of high yield can be fun but needed a few changes to make it fair.
Looking at the ghost spells... EMP is great damage vs but a niche spell vs . Snipe is a good damage spell vs and a niche spell vs .
This change keeps snipe a niche spell vs toss but makes it also a niche spell vs zerg.
This also makes ghosts even less useful in TvT (pretty much makes early ghost play useless).
By niche spell do you mean spell used as it was intended (anti-caster sniping). Though I agree the meta has changed and with the way it is this much of a damage nerf is pretty huge. But clearly they are attempting the bring the ghost back to it's original role of anti-caster. At least they buffed snipe on infestors
On February 11 2012 05:51 Markwerf wrote: I love the phoenix buff. Just a upgrade at the fleet beacon is genious, muta's will still be awesome if you surprise toss with them but the game where toss simply can't come back while zerg keeps massing air on maps like tal darim will be fixed a bit. Excellent change.
Ghost nerf seems a bit too hard. They were too good against broodlords and maybe ultralisks but now snipe is too weak I think. It becomes a niche spell against spellcasters and is completely useless against zealots and probably even ultra's and maybe broodlords. I would have loved to have seen a raven buff with this so we can get to see some seeker missile action, it's the coolest spell in the game and should really get a slight buff.
MULE change is good obviously, the idea of high yield can be fun but needed a few changes to make it fair.
Looking at the ghost spells... EMP is great damage vs but a niche spell vs . Snipe is a good damage spell vs and a niche spell vs .
This change keeps snipe a niche spell vs toss but makes it also a niche spell vs zerg.
This also makes ghosts even less useful in TvT (pretty much makes early ghost play useless).
By niche spell do you mean spell used as it was intended (anti-caster sniping). Though I agree the meta has changed and with the way it is this much of a damage nerf is pretty huge. But clearly they are attempting the bring the ghost back to it's original role of anti-caster. At least they buffed snipe on infestors
But why snipe an infestor and kill one, when you can emp and make a cloud of them useless?
Love the snipe change. Although it won't affect me I remember watching games where a terran (mostly on taldarim) could mass ghost and counter zerg altogether, while having snipe still available for high templar. The phoenix change, while not completely game changing is a huge step in the right direction and is helping to make phoenix more viable late game. The apm counter change is just a nice addition which allows people to see redundant apm easier and what their actual apm is.
The MULEs on gold base is also a great thing. By doing this we may see gold bases being more viable for balanced map making and competetive play in the future. It's a way for Blizzard to keep a feature in the game while keeping it balanced. I'm very happy with these cahnges as they are all a step in the right direction.
EPT
but a niche spell vs 
. Snipe is a good damage spell vs 
