raven + seeker missible is pretty good vs bl's as far as ive seen, just because u never play a certain style that doesnt mean u dont have any viable options available
Not sure if trolling or not, you need 2 upgrades and wait 1min and about 2000 gas for 7-8 ravens with HSM that dont even kill broodlord.
the damage of the seeker missile is "pretty good" if they don't bunch up their units.... but then again... the range of seeker missile is very very very bad
range is irrelevant vs bl's cus they cant run away, ive seen korean t's integrate ravens w/ ss while going mech and bio, i think the problem is just that koreans are ahead in the metagame atm
obviously ghosts wont work as well vs bl's in the lategame anymore and if foreign t's cant adapt themselves to new styles then glhf going mass marines vs bl's
You're really knowledgable on Terran lategame for someone who plays toss
i dl reps(less of this ofc, i only dl reps of famous players) and watch vods of every mu : D
Provide a link of so called famous players using ravens nowadays.
That was a bunch of broodlords out of position with not a single infestor nearby.
You said provide a link of a famous player using ravens.
He did.
You can stop talking now.
He went to the effort of answering your question, for you to dismiss it by giving a one-liner about army positioning? The premise of your argument was that Ravens aren't viable because no famous players use them.
A famous player used them.
Your argument is illogical.
If you want to change your premise, go ahead and do that. But don't dismiss someone proving your whole argument false.
How about 1 pro player using ravens in a PRACTICAL SETTING? Then is his argument logical? What he said is completely valid. That screen shot proves nothing. I've had team games where I mass marine/raven and get every upgrade for the raven available. You want me to post one to justify the usefullness of Ravens? No, because I suck and my strategy sucked, but so did my oppoenents so it worked. Just because one player has used Ravens doesn't make them viable, not by any means. If anyone is being illogical, it is you. And no offence to Khaldor, I love him as a caster but he's not exactly the creme of the crop of players.
I can see the phoenix change making stargate openings pretty much standard on several maps like Taldarim. Still though, if you didnt open stargate its a massive investment to throw down a stargate + beacon + upgrade cost. Im guessing stargate openers will always get the upgrade, otherwise the standard response (templar + blink stalkers) will still be the norm.
On February 11 2012 05:55 AnYvia wrote: LOL I called the ghost change back when there was the MVP vs July in GSL Semifinal (I think). I think this will make terrans play a little more creatively late game.
You shouldn't have. Mvp was already ahead and July completely throw away his ultras. He sent them against CCs and let them all be sniped. He could have just killed every ghost right there. That's a horrible game to use as an example of 'overpowered snipe'. It's like a terran sending 20 tanks unsieged into a horde of zerglings and then complaining that zerglings are overpowered.
Okay, how about Nestea vs. MVP at Blizzcon on Shakuras?
Shakuras is a terrible map for TvZ.
Also, funny how it's always MVP who crops up in these example discussions.
On February 11 2012 06:00 Gimix wrote: This seems like a car salesman's tactic
State you are going to change the snipe damage to 25 then change it to 35 after everyone hates it.
Lol, could be. Being able to easily two-snipe infestors is a change not enough people have commented on, ie it's not a flat-out 100% nerf. People have said EMP is better, but given the fatness of the bugs and the 100 energy nerf, plus you know, the benefit of killing things, I'd say not.
But reducing snipe to not much more damage than the ghost would deal with its regular attack is kind of silly to me. I really thought late-game TvZ had reached a pretty interesting dynamic as is, after a few weeks where brood lord/infestor seemed to roflstomp everything.
Awww man, you mean terrans have to COUNTER high tech units? lame....anyways...im worried about phoenixes now...people are using the excuse that fleet beacon is expensive, but phoenixes are still usefull in small numbers...mutas not so much...id say that the cost of grouping up lots of mutas compared to fewer phoenixes but with range, seems fair but mutas will just get pwned now...they will never hit anything..../worry
On February 11 2012 05:51 Bobgrimly wrote: If you don't know how to beat ultras... let me show you a video.
Skip to ten minutes. If you can't figure out how to beat ultras.
And thats on open ground... if its a choke... LOL. Just a few marines stop the ultra (3 hits from an ultra to kill one..... ) while tanks and marauders smash them.
Hey cool. Make a video of you killing a ling ultra infestor army by making them chase a few marines while your tanks and mauraders smash them!
The idea is they are very weak in reality. They are good if the units sit there and take the damage.
They are not good units in chokes/being kited. Two things that happen a lot on most maps. In an open field with correctly managed infestor and ling support I would hope they would be good. You know what would be annoying... if there was no situation that an ultra was good.
Does anyone actually think before they reply? Or are there a lot of upset terrans annoyed they can't use one button to win?
Do terrans think infestors are easy to use and manage? Really? You know even people like idra struggle to manage them. In a perfect zerg ambush they are great. If caught out in the open they die! If ultra ling goes against bio kiting... I would bet properly microd bio will win most times with equal value armies. (with of course medivacs) So the zerg NEEDS infestors. But a couple of ghosts have equal chance of shutting down those infestors as the infestors have of landing critical fungals needed for teh other zerg units to be effective and not just get shredded..
I like the boost to the Phoenix, and the gold base patch is irrelevant, but, even as a Zerg player, I don't like the ghost nerf. And I'm not sure how they can accurately remove spam clicks without crippling how APM works
On February 11 2012 05:56 jgelling wrote: Does anyone have a cost for the phoenix upgrade? While the appeal of +2 range seems big on paper,, I'm still skeptical of reactive phoenix investment overall - if I wasn't going phoenix initially I can't see a super tier 3 investment in what I still see as a fundamentally mid-game unit. The phoenix just doesn't fit well in late game unit compositions.
I guess the theory is you can now build say, a half dozen +2 range phoenix and use them to babysit your base while you move out for the final showdown. But if it's a base race situation (which it probably would be vs mass muta), a handful of phoenix won't make a difference to the ultimate outcome, compared to say, a similar investment in blink stalkers.
I've just never been a fan of the unit - it's always been lackluster compared to the corsair. But if the upgrade is reasonable for cost/time, maybe it has late-mid game appeal after holding off the initial mutas. If Phoenix were better vs broods or corruptors and weren't slaughtered by infestors or had splash, I'd be more excited. I'm still confused what in the world Protoss air will look like if they really remove the carrier and Mothership in HoTS and still plan on bringing in the Tempest to counter mutas.
Why would you have the Phoenix camping in your base. Their largest advantage is their mobility. And they would completely rock muta basetrade (in theory) because Mutas can't run away from Phoenix. So (also in theory, but also not very hard to execute now) you can do constant dps on the Mutas while never taking damage. So in a matter of seconds he would be base trading with ONLY zerglings
These are great changes; i feel like after this is implemented the game will (likely) be balanced at the GSL level / very high GM level. Protoss is looking strong and now Zerg late game armies won't be completely owned by high level Terran ghost massers. (I note that although Leenock, DRG and Stephano never really had problems with mass ghosts, it appears that everyone else did.)
For anyone complaining on here who isn't at that level, just remember these patch changes aren't aimed at you and, if these patch changes impact your play, eventually your MMR will reach a level that the game feels balanced again with you winning about 50% of your matches.
On February 11 2012 05:51 Markwerf wrote: I love the phoenix buff. Just a upgrade at the fleet beacon is genious, muta's will still be awesome if you surprise toss with them but the game where toss simply can't come back while zerg keeps massing air on maps like tal darim will be fixed a bit. Excellent change.
Ghost nerf seems a bit too hard. They were too good against broodlords and maybe ultralisks but now snipe is too weak I think. It becomes a niche spell against spellcasters and is completely useless against zealots and probably even ultra's and maybe broodlords. I would have loved to have seen a raven buff with this so we can get to see some seeker missile action, it's the coolest spell in the game and should really get a slight buff.
MULE change is good obviously, the idea of high yield can be fun but needed a few changes to make it fair.
Looking at the ghost spells... EMP is great damage vs but a niche spell vs . Snipe is a good damage spell vs and a niche spell vs .
This change keeps snipe a niche spell vs toss but makes it also a niche spell vs zerg.
This also makes ghosts even less useful in TvT (pretty much makes early ghost play useless).
On February 11 2012 05:24 Bobgrimly wrote: I really don't get all the terrans in this thread... Wah snipe is nerfed I can't play against zerg because my vikings will be fungaled..... That is singularly the most retarded statement EVER. Snipe is still as it was against infestors. (IT STILL DOES 45 DAMAGE TO INFESTORS) Now though instead of sniping the broodlords and auto winning you just switch target to the infestors guarding them and SNIPE THE INFESTOR. Now the broodlords have no protection and one viking can beat 50 broodlords (just might take a while)
Seriously anyone qqing about this change is just upset that they can't mass one unit to win. Oh no. Scanning is so hard.
You will be eaten alive, because you don't know what you are talking about and you write like you ate all wisdom there is in sc2..
Cloak ghost... run towards SLOWLY moving broodlords. If you can't see infestors scan... you can now see burrowed and a lot more... find infestors.... queue up snipes... goodbye infestors. They can't fungal ghosts when they get sniped. A zerg would have to see you coming and have taken plenty of steps to prevent that. At the same time vikings can be pot shotting the broodlords and forcing infestors to come to the front. This forces the infestors forward and makes them easy targets for cloaked ghosts.
There is nothing wrong with this scenario. I have seen it happen in many tvz games just with usually ghosts sniping EVERYTHING. Now they can snipe infestors then burn energy to lower broodlord hp if they want. But not quite so stupidly op as it was. Being able to queue up snipe on a unit means the zerg has no time to react. The broodlords just evaporate. At least now you run some risk as a terran from broodlords.
By plenty of steps to prevent cloaked ghosts you mean like morph single overseer?
By morph single overseer I take it you failed to notice GHOSTS CAN SNIPE OVERSEERS AND VIKINGS HAVE STUPID RANGE.
You make it sound like zerg has it easy. You obviously have never watched or played in high level games. Overseers do not live long when ghosts are around... or worse... ghosts and vikings. Zerg usually has to morph like 5 if the terran is doing his job just to prevent autoloss.
The point is yes the zerg can do some things to win... but the terran also has plenty of tools to use and now just has to rely on something other than MASS SNIPE LULZ.
This is called balance. When you can't win with just one unit and the enemy has to use multiple units to counter your counters and vice versa.
And if you talk about approaching broodlords then you have never approached a tank line knowing you will lose half your forces just getting to it... before you can do damage. (that is hyperbole but I figured that was how you structure your arguments)
lol, so you snipe overseers and than stare at infestors with no energy.. :D Man, seriously, put your shit together and stop writing essays lacking any sign of logic. You telling me to go in with Vikings/Ghosts to snipe 2-3 overseers? This is your adivce? Just answer yes/no so I know our conversation isn't waste of time..
If you aren't blind.... use vikings on overseers which have to be at the front to SEE GHOSTS. They don't have scan range on their view....
Then if they pull their overseer back your vikings start sniping broodlords. If he brings forward infestors and an overseer (fungal DOESN'T ONE SHOT VIKINGS) you focus the overseer with your vikings while still sniping the infestors. Once detection is gone you go back to shooting broodlords like fish in a barrel knowing if he dares bring forward infestors you can snipe them with impunity.
I don't even play terran but I know that is SOOOO frustrating for a zerg. Unless you are silly enough to group your vikings and ghosts in one group on top of each other fungal is really not that great. And you can even marine split your vikings... guess what... one fungal per viking IS NOT COST EFFECTIVE.
Just because you expect to A move does not mean you should be able to. Use some micro instead of spamming snipe and you might just demolish zerg. Seriously so many terrans complaining about fungal... how do they beat fungal and banelings? Spread or don't engage from a grouped up position. Not always going to happen but you are not always going to win.
Also zerg has to do a lot of army control so don't complain about having to micro manage a battle please. That would be face palm worthy.
Could someone tell this guy hes way off? Hes not listening to me anymore.. Listen kid, you say "I don't even play terran" and then proceed to give me 443 advices like do this, this, this, this, this at the same time, if he does this, you do this and you win.. Wake up and stop writing in capitals as it only makes you look unmatured.
It's amusing when people expect perfect play from other people when very very few people are capable of doing it effectively.
"Marine split your vikings." <-- funniest thing ever.
On February 11 2012 05:08 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: [quote]
Not sure if trolling or not, you need 2 upgrades and wait 1min and about 2000 gas for 7-8 ravens with HSM that dont even kill broodlord.
the damage of the seeker missile is "pretty good" if they don't bunch up their units.... but then again... the range of seeker missile is very very very bad
range is irrelevant vs bl's cus they cant run away, ive seen korean t's integrate ravens w/ ss while going mech and bio, i think the problem is just that koreans are ahead in the metagame atm
obviously ghosts wont work as well vs bl's in the lategame anymore and if foreign t's cant adapt themselves to new styles then glhf going mass marines vs bl's
You're really knowledgable on Terran lategame for someone who plays toss
i dl reps(less of this ofc, i only dl reps of famous players) and watch vods of every mu : D
Provide a link of so called famous players using ravens nowadays.
That was a bunch of broodlords out of position with not a single infestor nearby.
You said provide a link of a famous player using ravens.
He did.
You can stop talking now.
He went to the effort of answering your question, for you to dismiss it by giving a one-liner about army positioning? The premise of your argument was that Ravens aren't viable because no famous players use them.
A famous player used them.
Your argument is illogical.
If you want to change your premise, go ahead and do that. But don't dismiss someone proving your whole argument false.
How about 1 pro player using ravens in a PRACTICAL SETTING? Then is his argument logical? What he said is completely valid. That screen shot proves nothing. I've had team games where I mass marine/raven and get every upgrade for the raven available. You want me to post one to justify the usefullness of Ravens? No, because I suck and my strategy sucked, but so did my oppoenents so it worked. Just because one player has used Ravens doesn't make them viable, not by any means. If anyone is being illogical, it is you. And no offence to Khaldor, I love him as a caster but he's not exactly the creme of the crop of players.
- The screenshot had a link at the bottom. Follow it. The link was to Morrow vs Leenock, in a televised professional match. That proves the premise wrong.
- Khaldor wasn't playing. If you'd clicked the link you would have realised that. Morrow was using Khaldor's account for whatever reason.
- I'm not saying they are used, therefore they are viable. The person I quoted said that they are NOT used, therefore they are NOT viable. I was proving him wrong. Big difference.
On February 11 2012 05:08 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: [quote]
Not sure if trolling or not, you need 2 upgrades and wait 1min and about 2000 gas for 7-8 ravens with HSM that dont even kill broodlord.
the damage of the seeker missile is "pretty good" if they don't bunch up their units.... but then again... the range of seeker missile is very very very bad
range is irrelevant vs bl's cus they cant run away, ive seen korean t's integrate ravens w/ ss while going mech and bio, i think the problem is just that koreans are ahead in the metagame atm
obviously ghosts wont work as well vs bl's in the lategame anymore and if foreign t's cant adapt themselves to new styles then glhf going mass marines vs bl's
You're really knowledgable on Terran lategame for someone who plays toss
i dl reps(less of this ofc, i only dl reps of famous players) and watch vods of every mu : D
Provide a link of so called famous players using ravens nowadays.
That was a bunch of broodlords out of position with not a single infestor nearby.
You said provide a link of a famous player using ravens.
He did.
You can stop talking now.
He went to the effort of answering your question, for you to dismiss it by giving a one-liner about army positioning? The premise of your argument was that Ravens aren't viable because no famous players use them.
A famous player used them.
Your argument is illogical.
If you want to change your premise, go ahead and do that. But don't dismiss someone proving your whole argument false.
How about 1 pro player using ravens in a PRACTICAL SETTING? Then is his argument logical? What he said is completely valid. That screen shot proves nothing. I've had team games where I mass marine/raven and get every upgrade for the raven available. You want me to post one to justify the usefullness of Ravens? No, because I suck and my strategy sucked, but so did my oppoenents so it worked. Just because one player has used Ravens doesn't make them viable, not by any means. If anyone is being illogical, it is you. And no offence to Khaldor, I love him as a caster but he's not exactly the creme of the crop of players.
Ive seen Jinro beat at least one zerg in korean masters/gm using a raven heavy strategy in the later stages of the game to seeker missile infestors and brood lords.
On February 11 2012 05:24 Bobgrimly wrote: I really don't get all the terrans in this thread... Wah snipe is nerfed I can't play against zerg because my vikings will be fungaled..... That is singularly the most retarded statement EVER. Snipe is still as it was against infestors. (IT STILL DOES 45 DAMAGE TO INFESTORS) Now though instead of sniping the broodlords and auto winning you just switch target to the infestors guarding them and SNIPE THE INFESTOR. Now the broodlords have no protection and one viking can beat 50 broodlords (just might take a while)
Seriously anyone qqing about this change is just upset that they can't mass one unit to win. Oh no. Scanning is so hard.
You will be eaten alive, because you don't know what you are talking about and you write like you ate all wisdom there is in sc2..
Cloak ghost... run towards SLOWLY moving broodlords. If you can't see infestors scan... you can now see burrowed and a lot more... find infestors.... queue up snipes... goodbye infestors. They can't fungal ghosts when they get sniped. A zerg would have to see you coming and have taken plenty of steps to prevent that. At the same time vikings can be pot shotting the broodlords and forcing infestors to come to the front. This forces the infestors forward and makes them easy targets for cloaked ghosts.
There is nothing wrong with this scenario. I have seen it happen in many tvz games just with usually ghosts sniping EVERYTHING. Now they can snipe infestors then burn energy to lower broodlord hp if they want. But not quite so stupidly op as it was. Being able to queue up snipe on a unit means the zerg has no time to react. The broodlords just evaporate. At least now you run some risk as a terran from broodlords.
By plenty of steps to prevent cloaked ghosts you mean like morph single overseer?
By morph single overseer I take it you failed to notice GHOSTS CAN SNIPE OVERSEERS AND VIKINGS HAVE STUPID RANGE.
You make it sound like zerg has it easy. You obviously have never watched or played in high level games. Overseers do not live long when ghosts are around... or worse... ghosts and vikings. Zerg usually has to morph like 5 if the terran is doing his job just to prevent autoloss.
The point is yes the zerg can do some things to win... but the terran also has plenty of tools to use and now just has to rely on something other than MASS SNIPE LULZ.
This is called balance. When you can't win with just one unit and the enemy has to use multiple units to counter your counters and vice versa.
And if you talk about approaching broodlords then you have never approached a tank line knowing you will lose half your forces just getting to it... before you can do damage. (that is hyperbole but I figured that was how you structure your arguments)
lol, so you snipe overseers and than stare at infestors with no energy.. :D Man, seriously, put your shit together and stop writing essays lacking any sign of logic. You telling me to go in with Vikings/Ghosts to snipe 2-3 overseers? This is your adivce? Just answer yes/no so I know our conversation isn't waste of time..
If you aren't blind.... use vikings on overseers which have to be at the front to SEE GHOSTS. They don't have scan range on their view....
Then if they pull their overseer back your vikings start sniping broodlords. If he brings forward infestors and an overseer (fungal DOESN'T ONE SHOT VIKINGS) you focus the overseer with your vikings while still sniping the infestors. Once detection is gone you go back to shooting broodlords like fish in a barrel knowing if he dares bring forward infestors you can snipe them with impunity.
I don't even play terran but I know that is SOOOO frustrating for a zerg. Unless you are silly enough to group your vikings and ghosts in one group on top of each other fungal is really not that great. And you can even marine split your vikings... guess what... one fungal per viking IS NOT COST EFFECTIVE.
Just because you expect to A move does not mean you should be able to. Use some micro instead of spamming snipe and you might just demolish zerg. Seriously so many terrans complaining about fungal... how do they beat fungal and banelings? Spread or don't engage from a grouped up position. Not always going to happen but you are not always going to win.
Also zerg has to do a lot of army control so don't complain about having to micro manage a battle please. That would be face palm worthy.
Could someone tell this guy hes way off? Hes not listening to me anymore.. Listen kid, you say "I don't even play terran" and then proceed to give me 443 advices like do this, this, this, this, this at the same time, if he does this, you do this and you win.. Wake up and stop writing in capitals as it only makes you look unmatured.
It's amusing when people expect perfect play from other people when very very few people are capable of doing it effectively.
"Marine split your vikings." <-- funniest thing ever.
EPT
but a niche spell vs 
. Snipe is a good damage spell vs 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g4umt.jpg)
