EPTUltras have enough counters in ZvT why do they need to be countered by ghosts also?
Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 114
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay. Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. | ||
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lachy89
Australia264 Posts
Ultras have enough counters in ZvT why do they need to be countered by ghosts also? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On February 11 2012 11:52 Scila wrote: If storm was changed to do half damage to armored units, you'd see Protoss whining. If Colossus were 15 + 15 to light, you'd also see Protoss whining. This change is huge, and completely unwarranted, as Terran still loses slightly more in late game TvZ at the pro level, and have generally the weakest late game. But what if storm was made to do half dmg to armored units if storm indeed was overpowered vs them? That's called balancing the game | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
However, I believe that Snipe is an integral part of "rush strategies" and innovation into the game. There would be no reason to rush for ghosts if they are just weak, and not nessessary in armies except to neutrilize enemy casters. There would be no reason to get them at all if the enemy isn't getting casters (specifically in the TvZ and TvT matchup) Therefore, I believe that reducing the damage of snipe to 25 against normal units is not a viable option, as it would weaken the ghost to a point where it is costly, it's DPS is low, and its standard (not including nukes) spells vs Terran and Zerg are useless.. I believe snipe should deal the same 45 damage towards all units; but against massive units, it should deal 25 damage. This will allow for the same early aggression strategies with ghosts, and also allow Zerg T3 to be a viable and strong option. It will also make ghosts viable to be used in Terran vs Terran and Terran vs Zerg. It's lategame possibilities vs Protoss would not be weakened or strengthened, and so it would not change the balance in that respect. I believe that if Snipe is nerfed that much, then terrans would not be able to play a strong macro game vs zerg. It would turn TvZ into an endless aggression war. I don't like the idea of creating two very aggressive matchups for zerg, and forcing a way of playing for terran. I guess time will only tell how the patch will turn out. | ||
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gladsheim
Australia676 Posts
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Entteri
Finland108 Posts
On February 11 2012 11:47 SC Trickster wrote: Ignore for a moment the current stat change to snipe. And tell me if you think mass ghost in lategame TvZ is currently balanced or not. Don't think about whether the current change is too much or not, just if snipe is currently perfectly fine or not in lategame TvZ. TvZ is easily the most balanced matchup and has been for quite some time. How could the MU WLR be even close to even if there was something incredibly wrong in the lategame. I say "incredibly" because the suggested nerf is incredibly big. | ||
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bovineblitz
United States314 Posts
On February 11 2012 11:53 SYLKi wrote: Don't know if this has been mentioned but wouldn't the new +25 (as opposed to flat 40) versus psionic only matter in TvT? as Infestors and HT die in 2 snipes anyway Infestors die in 3 snipes due to regen | ||
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ChriseC
Germany440 Posts
this goes for infestors aswell, they should be much more supportive than beeing the main part of the army (see destiny) | ||
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M,J,Y
New Zealand16 Posts
On February 11 2012 11:52 Scila wrote: If storm was changed to do half damage to armored units, you'd see Protoss whining. If Colossus were 15 + 15 to light, you'd also see Protoss whining. This change is huge. Doesnt even makes sense, ghost could spam snipe to unload massive damage and destroy t3 armies with 15+ ghost and it would just cost energy. Storm does not stack, you can spam 30 storms and it just does the damage of one storm ( if it wasnt the case then you would be right) And coloss i don't even see how you brought it into the arguement , you can't unload like spells do and if you have 15+ of them thats going to cost so much and take up a huge amount of supply and you actually deserve to have high burst dmg if you had that many coloss but you would lack the support units and lose that way. | ||
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Bedrock
United States395 Posts
Terrans are doing extremely well turtling until they have enough ghosts to destroy a t3 zerg army. How is that fair to zerg? You need to think about balance, not what is best for your race. Terrans will definitely need to come up with a different strategy to deal with BL/Corruptor/Infestor army instead of just mass ghosts. A nice mix sounds like it would work, but we won't know until it's all played out. (More vikings? More Marauders?) I feel for DK and everyone at Blizzard who deals with balance. They have to make something that works at lower leagues while making sure the top notch players are balanced. When I feel like I have to complain about nerfs, I just remind myself that I don't make a living off of SC2. It puts me in my place pretty well. | ||
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SC Trickster
Denmark100 Posts
On February 11 2012 11:51 ChaosTerran wrote: Yeah, I think it is fine. What else is terran gonna do? Mass vikings just to die to ultralisk tech switches like in the past (before we learned to use ghosts?), I already see it coming, terran won't have an answer to zerg lategame tech switches. You mass 25 vikings to kill a pure lategame zerg sky army, zerg then tech switches to mass ultralisk and your vikings are worthless. The problem I see with ghost is that they have way to much utility, heavy ghost production pretty much counter mutas, infestors, broodlords and ultra. Ghost is pretty much a unit you can go for without needing to scout the Zerg lategame. Terran having problems without the ghost is obviously another problem altogether, one that needs to be adressed as well ofcourse. | ||
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drew-chan
Malaysia1517 Posts
Terrans do need a jack of all trades unit to cope with zerg t3 tech switching. I mean if you are caught making marauders for ultras and a quick switch into mutas come whats gonna happen? Maybe if they add a secondary effect to snipe to balance out the damage nerf, something along the lines of every 2 snipes on a same target within a few seconds will rend off 1 armor from it, so terrans can use snipes on ultras and finish them off with marines. | ||
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Clank
United States548 Posts
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Sovern
United States312 Posts
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L0thar
987 Posts
I wish someone did the "win ratio of races compared to lenght of games" statistic with much more data. Would be interesting look. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On February 11 2012 11:58 M,J,Y wrote: Doesnt even makes sense, ghost could spam snipe to unload massive damage and destroy t3 armies with 15+ ghost and it would just cost energy. Storm does not stack, you can spam 30 storms and it just does the damage of one storm ( if it wasnt the case then you would be right) And coloss i don't even see how you brought it into the arguement , you can't unload like spells do and if you have 15+ of them thats going to cost so much and take up a huge amount of supply and you actually deserve to have high burst dmg if you had that many coloss but you would lack the support units and lose that way. I wasn't suggesting nerfing those units, I was simply responding to the guy that said that Terran is "whining" over this change, and used a hypothetical nerf to Toss as a comparison, because that's how important Ghosts are for terran in late game. Yes, Ghosts can do a lot of damage, but you're forgetting the fact that it takes a long time to actually get it out because one snipe is only 45 damage, and you're also forgetting the fact that Terran has a ton of things to do in a late game TvZ engagement besides using Ghosts to snipe, like spreading units, sieging, stimming, and kiting. If it was as easy as "get a lot of ghosts and then spam snipe on Blord/Ultra" then Terran would roll over Zerg in late game TvZ. | ||
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Ldawg
United States328 Posts
On February 11 2012 12:01 Bedrock wrote: The patch change is actually pretty decent considering what kind of materials we have been seeing in the GSL and other high level tournaments. Mutalisk, if you haven't seen, is a big problem for Protoss pros. At my level, I can handle it just fine (Diamond) in more than one way. When you give that kind of power into the hands of a player where their control and multitasking is top notch, it can be very problematic. Terrans are doing extremely well turtling until they have enough ghosts to destroy a t3 zerg army. How is that fair to zerg? You need to think about balance, not what is best for your race. Terrans will definitely need to come up with a different strategy to deal with BL/Corruptor/Infestor army instead of just mass ghosts. A nice mix sounds like it would work, but we won't know until it's all played out. (More vikings? More Marauders?) I feel for DK and everyone at Blizzard who deals with balance. They have to make something that works at lower leagues while making sure the top notch players are balanced. When I feel like I have to complain about nerfs, I just remind myself that I don't make a living off of SC2. It puts me in my place pretty well. Very wise attitude and approach to the game. If I feel something is imbalanced, rather than complain about it (which does nothing to improve the scenario), I try to remind myself that in general, the better I become, the more balanced the game will seem as Blizzard aims to balance at the highest level of plays. Also, the new maps coming in the season should help balance as well as encourage macro games. | ||
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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On February 11 2012 12:01 SC Trickster wrote: The problem I see with ghost is that they have way to much utility, heavy ghost production pretty much counter mutas, infestors, broodlords and ultra. Ghost is pretty much a unit you can go for without needing to scout the Zerg lategame. Terran having problems without the ghost is obviously another problem altogether, one that needs to be adressed as well ofcourse. Well yes, but what do you suggest? Ghosts made it so you can survive. Without ghosts, what could terran possibly do? It's so easy for Zerg to make mass corrupter/broodlord lategame and now terran can respond by going mass ghosts, but if they weaken snipe like this, then the only option will be mass vikings and you will ultimately have to build a ridiculous amount of vikings.. and then you will die to ultralisk tech switches. How is terran supposed to deal with the lategame TvZ. The statistics that have been recently released showed terran has around a 35% win rate in TvZ lategame (http://i.imgur.com/8Wfcc.png). Why in the world would Blizzard nerf terran lategame, when terran is weaker than Zerg lategame but stronger early game. This change doesn't even make any sense. They should actually nerf terran early game and seriously buff terran lategame. But as is, they just do the complete opposite. It really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. | ||
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Arkless
Canada1547 Posts
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vorxaw
Canada245 Posts
On February 11 2012 12:01 Bedrock wrote: The patch change is actually pretty decent considering what kind of materials we have been seeing in the GSL and other high level tournaments. Mutalisk, if you haven't seen, is a big problem for Protoss pros. At my level, I can handle it just fine (Diamond) in more than one way. When you give that kind of power into the hands of a player where their control and multitasking is top notch, it can be very problematic. Terrans are doing extremely well turtling until they have enough ghosts to destroy a t3 zerg army. How is that fair to zerg? You need to think about balance, not what is best for your race. Terrans will definitely need to come up with a different strategy to deal with BL/Corruptor/Infestor army instead of just mass ghosts. A nice mix sounds like it would work, but we won't know until it's all played out. (More vikings? More Marauders?) I feel for DK and everyone at Blizzard who deals with balance. They have to make something that works at lower leagues while making sure the top notch players are balanced. When I feel like I have to complain about nerfs, I just remind myself that I don't make a living off of SC2. It puts me in my place pretty well. couldnt agree more, when i see a patch like this given current state of tvx late game, i think phew, good thing i dont rely on this for my paycheck  | ||
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perser84
Germany399 Posts
seem like i need to heavy rely on thor +amor to fight vs zerg tier 3 | ||
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