From : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042 This is taken from a sample size of 102 TvZ matchups Since this was taken from MLG Providence, I will assume that this sample is almost entirely representative of the top 2% of players (masters and grandmasters). This graph provides evidence that ghosts do not 'counter' tier 3 zerg. Considering the whole broodlord infestor vs ghost marine tank viking dance usually starts at or after 20 minutes, why were terrans not winning here? I am pretty sure that snipe efficiency was figured out pretty well this summer (when we first started to see MVP using it profusely, especially against ultralisk comps).
So; Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup)
Ghosts actually happen to be the most expensive unit per supply in the terran arsenal (I would argue that 2 supply makes them too easy to mass in TvZ, but 3 supply would have too massive of an effect on TvP) For example, to build the scary ball of ghosts that "counters zerg t3" (as I have read over and over again in this thread) I will assume that they mean a ball of: 15 Ghosts 25 ghosts 3000 minerals 5000 minerals 1500 gas 2500 gas 30 supply 50 supply 120 to 200 seconds* 200 to 330 seconds*
* note that the first value corresponds to the mad terran player who just happens to have 5 tech lab rax on hand. Second number is for a terran who has 3. 5 tech lab rax would be slightly unusual in a matchup that is marine dominated
So without the ghost, what do you suggest to counter broodlord corruptor infestor? m̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ 1 full energy infestor can kill 35 marines, with enough energy left for two infested terrans. OVERPOWERED, I DON'T LIKE IT, COUNTERS TERRAN T1, NEEDS A NERF (etcetera) ̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶ 4 broodlords kill 4 micro'd thors with 2 full health broods left v̶i̶k̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ - 8 corruptors kill 8 vikings with 1 corruptor left (no micro, no corruption) b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶c̶r̶u̶i̶s̶e̶r̶ - I tested 4 cruisers (24 supply, 1 arm, 1 leg,) vs 8 corruptors - 1 battlecruiser lives with 57/550 hp. SAVED r̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ - 13 ravens with HSM kill 8 broodlords (if you use 125 energy each) all of these were done with equal upgrades
The problem is that broodlord + corruptor + infestor has a ridiculous advantage in the air battle already. corruptor broodlord is better than terran anti air in a straight up fight. Corruptors are also easier to produce en masse (see larvae) which gives them the ability to take momentum in the air battle much more quickly than a terran with 2-3 reactor ports. Also note that zerg air will generally have both armor and attack upgrades, whereas terran air will at best have attack upgrades, because there is no terran air endgame ball that is effective in tvz.
TL;DR Without ghosts, terrans have no answer to zerg air superiority because - wait for it - ZERG AIR IS SUPERIOR
On February 11 2012 12:07 Clank wrote: Regarding the whole ghost nerf, I think that even if it breaks late game ZvT, it was still a good move game design wise. One unit should not be the only way to stop zerg late game. The role that the ghost will most likely fill now is about where I think it should be, as primarily a spellcaster counter. What Blizzard needs to do is buff some of the other Terran late game options to balance the overall matchup, rather than just having one unit balance it.
The same could be said with the infestor. Same for HT (vs Terran) to a lesser degree. Both of those units can combat pretty well anything Terran, except maybe hellion and incredible emp usage. Okay, so you'd agree the that the HT should remain as is and more protoss T3 units should be usable, while Terran should have it's jack of all trades unit nerfed, and given working T3 units in place?
I'd probably take working ravens, bc's, and thor over the current form of snipe. It'd at least give us a better shot vs late game zerg and maybe Protoss, even though we'd be lacking the jack of all trades unit that zerg and protoss would still have verse us.
From : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042 This is taken from a sample size of 102 TvZ matchups Since this was taken from MLG Providence, I will assume that this sample is almost entirely representative of the top 2% of players (masters and grandmasters). This graph provides evidence that ghosts do not 'counter' tier 3 zerg. Considering the whole broodlord infestor vs ghost marine tank viking dance usually starts at or after 20 minutes, why were terrans not winning here? I am pretty sure that snipe efficiency was figured out pretty well this summer (when we first started to see MVP using it profusely, especially against ultralisk comps).
So; Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup)
Ghosts actually happen to be the most expensive unit per supply in the terran arsenal (I would argue that 2 supply makes them too easy to mass in TvZ, but 3 supply would have too massive of an effect on TvP) For example, to build the scary ball of ghosts that "counters zerg t3" (as I have read over and over again in this thread) I will assume that they mean a ball of: 15 Ghosts 25 ghosts 3000 minerals 5000 minerals 1500 gas 2500 gas 30 supply 50 supply 120 to 200 seconds* 200 to 330 seconds*
* note that the first value corresponds to the mad terran player who just happens to have 5 tech lab rax on hand. Second number is for a terran who has 3. 5 tech lab rax would be slightly unusual in a matchup that is marine dominated
So without the ghost, what do you suggest to counter broodlord corruptor infestor? m̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ 1 full energy infestor can kill 35 marines, with enough energy left for two infested terrans. OVERPOWERED, I DON'T LIKE IT, COUNTERS TERRAN T1, NEEDS A NERF (etcetera) ̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶ 4 broodlords kill 4 micro'd thors with 2 full health broods left v̶i̶k̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ - 8 corruptors kill 8 vikings with 1 corruptor left (no micro, no corruption) b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶c̶r̶u̶i̶s̶e̶r̶ - I tested 4 cruisers (24 supply, 1 arm, 1 leg,) vs 8 corruptors - 1 battlecruiser lives with 57/550 hp. SAVED r̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ - 13 ravens with HSM kill 8 broodlords (if you use 125 energy each) all of these were done with equal upgrades
The problem is that broodlord + corruptor + infestor has a ridiculous advantage in the air battle already. corruptor broodlord is better than terran anti air in a straight up fight. Corruptors are also easier to produce en masse (see larvae) which gives them the ability to take momentum in the air battle much more quickly than a terran with 2-3 reactor ports. Also note that zerg air will generally have both armor and attack upgrades, whereas terran air will at best have attack upgrades, because there is no terran air endgame ball that is effective in tvz.
TL;DR Without ghosts, terrans have no answer to zerg air superiority because - wait for it - ZERG AIR IS SUPERIOR
Excellent graph, I would be willing to bet its just like this in TVP at least below the pro level, and the effect is probably more exaggerated. Why doesn't blizz realize this and focus on making the lines flatter? What they are doing is forcing Terran to focus on all ins and early game strategies, while forcing zerg to turtle up/defend and wait for the lategame to have a massive advantage.
From : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042 This is taken from a sample size of 102 TvZ matchups Since this was taken from MLG Providence, I will assume that this sample is almost entirely representative of the top 2% of players (masters and grandmasters). This graph provides evidence that ghosts do not 'counter' tier 3 zerg. Considering the whole broodlord infestor vs ghost marine tank viking dance usually starts at or after 20 minutes, why were terrans not winning here? I am pretty sure that snipe efficiency was figured out pretty well this summer (when we first started to see MVP using it profusely, especially against ultralisk comps).
So; Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup)
Ghosts actually happen to be the most expensive unit per supply in the terran arsenal (I would argue that 2 supply makes them too easy to mass in TvZ, but 3 supply would have too massive of an effect on TvP) For example, to build the scary ball of ghosts that "counters zerg t3" (as I have read over and over again in this thread) I will assume that they mean a ball of: 15 Ghosts 25 ghosts 3000 minerals 5000 minerals 1500 gas 2500 gas 30 supply 50 supply 120 to 200 seconds* 200 to 330 seconds*
* note that the first value corresponds to the mad terran player who just happens to have 5 tech lab rax on hand. Second number is for a terran who has 3. 5 tech lab rax would be slightly unusual in a matchup that is marine dominated
So without the ghost, what do you suggest to counter broodlord corruptor infestor? m̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ 1 full energy infestor can kill 35 marines, with enough energy left for two infested terrans. OVERPOWERED, I DON'T LIKE IT, COUNTERS TERRAN T1, NEEDS A NERF (etcetera) ̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶ 4 broodlords kill 4 micro'd thors with 2 full health broods left v̶i̶k̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ - 8 corruptors kill 8 vikings with 1 corruptor left (no micro, no corruption) b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶c̶r̶u̶i̶s̶e̶r̶ - I tested 4 cruisers (24 supply, 1 arm, 1 leg,) vs 8 corruptors - 1 battlecruiser lives with 57/550 hp. SAVED r̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ - 13 ravens with HSM kill 8 broodlords (if you use 125 energy each) all of these were done with equal upgrades
The problem is that broodlord + corruptor + infestor has a ridiculous advantage in the air battle already. corruptor broodlord is better than terran anti air in a straight up fight. Corruptors are also easier to produce en masse (see larvae) which gives them the ability to take momentum in the air battle much more quickly than a terran with 2-3 reactor ports. Also note that zerg air will generally have both armor and attack upgrades, whereas terran air will at best have attack upgrades, because there is no terran air endgame ball that is effective in tvz.
TL;DR Without ghosts, terrans have no answer to zerg air superiority because - wait for it - ZERG AIR IS SUPERIOR
Excellent graph, I would be willing to bet its just like this in TVP at least below the pro level, and the effect is probably more exaggerated. Why doesn't blizz realize this and focus on making the lines flatter? What they are doing is forcing Terran to focus on all ins and early game strategies, while forcing zerg to turtle up/defend and wait for the lategame to have a massive advantage.
Playing terran is literally a race against the clock. It always was and with this ghost nerf it will be even harder to make anything happen lategame. I say this pretty much every day, nerf terran early game and give us a viable lategame army to tech to!
guys can u please stop with the lategame terran stuff? those graphs dont show anything at all just read the comments and you know why.
u cant put the moment a game is "lost" and the gamelength itself into one pot since its different stats. man i bet sc2 community has 20 less IQ average than BW, its hard to read the comments in here and not to pm people and tell them how wrong they are.
seems like 75% of the people in here dont want to have a balanced game. even when its abit harsh next patch something different will be changed(maybe infestor/viking/broodlord or whatever) and thats what pushes the game in a (hopefully) better direction. so much ignorance in here
On February 11 2012 12:01 Bedrock wrote: The patch change is actually pretty decent considering what kind of materials we have been seeing in the GSL and other high level tournaments. Mutalisk, if you haven't seen, is a big problem for Protoss pros. At my level, I can handle it just fine (Diamond) in more than one way. When you give that kind of power into the hands of a player where their control and multitasking is top notch, it can be very problematic.
Terrans are doing extremely well turtling until they have enough ghosts to destroy a t3 zerg army. How is that fair to zerg? You need to think about balance, not what is best for your race. Terrans will definitely need to come up with a different strategy to deal with BL/Corruptor/Infestor army instead of just mass ghosts. A nice mix sounds like it would work, but we won't know until it's all played out. (More vikings? More Marauders?)
I feel for DK and everyone at Blizzard who deals with balance. They have to make something that works at lower leagues while making sure the top notch players are balanced.
When I feel like I have to complain about nerfs, I just remind myself that I don't make a living off of SC2. It puts me in my place pretty well.
Yeah, god forbid Terran being able to play turtle, how unfair for Zerg! With that attitude, how fair is it for Terran who has to be on top of the aggression all the time or they die while Zerg can get away with just sitting back and defend defend and defend to roll out with BL/infestor/corruptor into insta remax with a huge bank?
Terran has to be aggressive to deny the huge hive t3 army, shouldn't Zerg have to play aggressive to deny the mass ghost army then? And since Terran doesn't have a huge t3 army arsenal to turtle up and rely on they have ghost which is scary instead. It sure would be cooler if Terran had t3 units that could fight Zerg's t3 units but now they don't and the Ghost is doing that, but now Blizzard wants to take away that too.
On February 11 2012 11:56 coriamon wrote: While I believe that Snipe was (in the past) a very powerful spell, it very much limitted the zerg's abilities for T3 units to deal a lot of damage. However, I believe that Snipe is an integral part of "rush strategies" and innovation into the game. There would be no reason to rush for ghosts if they are just weak, and not nessessary in armies except to neutrilize enemy casters. There would be no reason to get them at all if the enemy isn't getting casters (specifically in the TvZ and TvT matchup)
Therefore, I believe that reducing the damage of snipe to 25 against normal units is not a viable option, as it would weaken the ghost to a point where it is costly, it's DPS is low, and its standard (not including nukes) spells vs Terran and Zerg are useless..
I believe snipe should deal the same 45 damage towards all units; but against massive units, it should deal 25 damage. This will allow for the same early aggression strategies with ghosts, and also allow Zerg T3 to be a viable and strong option. It will also make ghosts viable to be used in Terran vs Terran and Terran vs Zerg.
It's lategame possibilities vs Protoss would not be weakened or strengthened, and so it would not change the balance in that respect.
I believe that if Snipe is nerfed that much, then terrans would not be able to play a strong macro game vs zerg. It would turn TvZ into an endless aggression war. I don't like the idea of creating two very aggressive matchups for zerg, and forcing a way of playing for terran.
I guess time will only tell how the patch will turn out.
These are some great points and I agree with a lot of them. I think the bold part is very smart, and I actually think it´s the best alternative if the ghost becomes too weak.
On February 11 2012 12:21 ChriseC wrote: guys can u please stop with the lategame terran stuff? those graphs dont show anything at all just read the comments and you know why.
u cant put the moment a game is "lost" and the gamelength itself into one pot since its different stats. man i bet sc2 community has 20 less IQ average than BW, its hard to read the comments in here and not to pm people and tell them how wrong they are.
seems like 75% of the people in here dont want to have a balanced game. even when its abit harsh next patch something different will be changed(maybe infestor/viking/broodlord or whatever) and thats what pushes the game in a (hopefully) better direction. so much ignorance in here
What are you talking about? So terran having a 35% lategame win rate is not a sign that terran lategame is weak? What else could it possibly show?
The ghost change will make 2 sniping infestors intuitive, that's nice. I think a way to get around this brood lord dilemma would be make Corruptors armored (So vikings win out if spread vs Infestors), or make brood lords light so Thors have an easier time dealing with them.
Blizzard just needs to give terran a viable T3 instead of making the terran players rely on fragile units like the ghost in hopes to deal with zergs T3 and Protoss's T3 tech path's. Remove the Raven and give us a spell caster that does damage to all biological units in its spell effect radius over a period of time. Something simliar to plague from BW. That would help terran deal with mass chargelot unit comps and late game broodlord/infestor/ultra unit comps. It would also make the game more interesting.
Snipe was imbalanced in my opinion not just because of easily sniping brood lords or even ultralisks or other units, but also because they could quickly take out overseers at a distance (as well as the only alternative detection: infestors). it then allows ghosts and/or banshees (with supporting units like marines/marauders) to deal substantial unhindered damage, be it with regular attacks, snipe, or nukes.
On February 11 2012 12:30 Resistentialism wrote: Ghosts are expensive, not fragile. 100 hp with barely any armour types and able to be healed by medivacs.
Shhhhhhh 100 hp is not enough for the unit that can cloak, cast spells at range 10 and can launch nukes. They need 125, like marauders and the ability to blink as well, to avoid those nasty engagements where they could die.
On February 11 2012 12:30 Resistentialism wrote: Ghosts are expensive, not fragile. 100 hp with barely any armour types and able to be healed by medivacs.
Shhhhhhh 100 hp is not enough for the unit that can cloak, cast spells at range 10 and can launch nukes. They need 125, like marauders and the ability to blink as well, to avoid those nasty engagements where they could die.
As a diamond Terran I wholehearted agree with the snipe change. As I am not good enough to use ghosts snipe atm the snipe change is inconsequential to me. Undoubtedly it will severely affect the top end level of play and Terran will fall behind. The QQ will pile in, and without the usual omg Terran GSL OP results to counter the QQ maybe we will finally get buffed! Maybe the buff will even be something that lower level players can make use of! Win win!
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing?
Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever.
Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax.
Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their vikings and consider flanking vs broodlords.
Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup)
This. Whenever I end up talking to people who complain to me about how terran sticks to the same units throughout the game, i point this out to them. The fact that terran has such rigid infrastructure, made even more rigid by addons.
Don't even get me started on how rigid and disjointed terran upgrades are.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/114/zvt.png)
