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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 11:37 esaul17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2012 09:57 esaul17 wrote:On February 11 2012 09:53 Asturas wrote:
Please Blizzard don't forget to nerf Terran more and every time. Oh wait this is what Blizzard does... No comment. This is no longer funny.
User was temp banned for this post. Now you feel the pain of Protoss. Protoss haven't been nerfed since the WG change. I really don't understand where this justification comes from. I just meant during the beta times, every single patch was a nerf for Protoss.It got depressing after a while.
Still, your comment was not very well-thought out. "Now you feel the pain of protoss". Like, really? Terran got nerfed in pretty much every patch. Whenever terran learned to use a new unit it got nerfed, soon will only be able to use pure marine/medivac because everything else will be nerfed to death sooner or later. But only now, do we understand the pain of protoss, right. The race that gets buffed with absolutely every patch, to a point where most people think TvP lategame is unwinnable for Terran.
The protoss pain, pfff.
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On February 11 2012 11:34 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 11 2012 02:40 Thorzain wrote:
I really feel that they overdid the snipe nerf. Ghosts really isn't a counter to ultralisks (300 energy to kill 1 ultralisk), and not a hard-counter to brood lords (they are good against them but not imba).
I feel that 20 damage is too much of a removal. When snipe doesn't even one shot a baneling or a zergling, something is wrong. Will be useless against zealots as well because the normal attack is just as strong as the snipe will be against light units. Thorzain was spoken. Looks like the micro race is going to require even more skill now after this nerf, though I'll bet that it will be reversed. Please note he didn't say the change was WRONG, only too much. He says they overdid the Snipe nerf, not that they made it unusable. He also fails to address the core of the problem, which is that Terran is able to mass a unit that can deal huge amounts of damage to the entire Zerg army without losing a single unit. That's what makes Ghosts inherently broken against Zerg: it is possible for the Terran to reach a critical mass of Ghosts that literally cannot be killed by the Zerg player, because all the Zerg units melt before they reach the Terran lines. Personally, I think Snipe should be changed to only be usable against casters, and some other aspect of Terran changed to make it more useful versus Zerg in the lategame (change HSM to deal high single-target damage but no splash? Return Irradiate?).
Once again, if this was the case, then we would see it happening a lot at the Pro level...which it doesn't. In a typical late game TvZ, IF the terran manages to get ghosts out to respond to Hive, it's a relatively even 50/50 game, except for maybe some specific maps like Shakuras, which are very Terran favored.
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Personally, I would have kept the damage on Snipe, but put it on a cooldown. A pretty short one, though (no more than 5s, but IDK what the exact best number is). I never really had a problem with the damage Snipe did. I had a problem with how fast that damage got done. Right now, if Terran has a moderate amount of ghosts, then you hardly get anything done with your BLs before they just die. And not just die, but you traded thousands of resources for only (renewable) energy.
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On February 11 2012 11:12 bucckevin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:01 Torra wrote:
So basically what all u zergs are saying is that nothing should be able to stop ur BLs, corruptor, infestor deathball? It's not even like once terran gets a few ghosts out, it's gg for u. And u need macro like MVP to reach those high ghost counts. Still, the zerg deathball trades decent with high ghost counts, and then u can remax with a lower tier compostition which is better vs. terran's ghost/viking. Ghosts does not COUNTER every zerg unit. They do very good vs. infestors and BLs, and still the zerg can trade ecually with u. Ghosts are acutally not that cost effective vs. ultras, marauders work better.
Maybe it could be zergs time to change up things if they think ghosts are a problem? But naaah, nerfing terran some more seems better when terran is already the weakest race in lategame.
I really don't see how zerg can lose w/ a deathball now. How are u supposed to take out BLs w/ corruptor and infestor support? Vikings are not cost effective enough, Ghosts were already hard to get enough of, what now? That's correct....... You let the zerg get to T3 and not kill them before 20 minute mark, you deserve to lose. You and your little T1 marines and T2 tanks shouldnt even be able to breath on zerg T3 units.(holding a straight face.)
because our BC's is not as viable as those...
zerg is the only race that has a viable T3
carrier, mothership, BC's all is only an overkill strategy
PATCH 1.6.2 preview !!!
TERRAN REMOVED FROM SC II !!!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 11 2012 11:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Zerg late game vs Terran, which was already laughably easy to win, just got easier. From an objective perspective I'm not entirely sure what they're going for.
I'll be exclusively going going marauder hellion allin/2 rax/2 port banshee/111 hellion cloak every single tvz now, expanding as terran is overrated
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High Diamond Terran Player.
I have been struggling mightily against Zerg in general. My win% against Z is around 35-40% in ladder games for the past 2 seasons. Essentially if the game goes longer than 18 minutes, I lost roughly 90% of the time. I believe my problem is largely due to the fact that I haven't gotten enough ghosts, but have invested heavily in marauders when my opponent went Ultralisk and vikings when my opponent went Brood lords. Then, when my opponent tech switched to the other, I was fucked and ended up losing. Over the past few weeks, I have been trying to incorporate ghosts into my late-game TvZ more. Now though, I don't see a point. Terran has no ability to "tech switch" as rapidly as Zerg. That's why the ghost was such a necessary unit - it was the only unit that would aid in the fight against both ultralisks and broodlords. Now, it seems, Blizzard is expecting Terran to tech switch as quickly as Zerg can.
In light of this patch, perhaps Blizzard needs to give Terran a fusion core upgrade that turns all tech labs and reactors into "tech reactors" like in the campaign. Then we could tech switch rapidly and have a chance against Zerg. I find it so unfair that if the Terran and Zerg have played an even match up until the 18 minute mark, that all of a sudden it becomes impossible for the Terran to win. Thanks Blizzard!
It is so sad. I logged on today and was playing a zerg friend, testing the new ladder maps Korhal Compound and Cloud Kingdom. I just couldn't bring myself to care about the game. Normally I'm on the edge of my seat, trying really hard, trying to win, but tonight I was just lethargic. I had to apologize to him because I could tell I wasn't giving him good games and was just wasting his time. The games just didn't seem worth playing. I play a macro style because that is the style the ladder maps intentionally encourage, but I don't think I can play macro games against Zerg anymore. Throughout the game, my heart just sank. I know the patch hasn't even come out yet, but it doesn't matter psychologically since I know it will come. If this change becomes permament, I suppose I'll have to change races or quit the game and move on to another game. I 've been waiting for a FPS game like UT2004 to come out, but none have. Oh well, one can only hope.
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ghost is supposed to be a support unit, not a unit to mass and thats a step into the right direction. just like they did with the infestor before
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Magnaflow your arguement is kinda wierd, you say lower levels will have a very hard time (due to having to use vikings over ghost vs broods) and they will have to split vikings to not get fungal.
Not sure about you but i havn't really seen a terran player reach late game tvz and not be able to split vikings, that said i agree that we will have to wait and see before we scream imba but i do see pvz been a sick match up.
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On February 11 2012 11:42 Vertical wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:12 bucckevin wrote:On February 11 2012 11:01 Torra wrote:
So basically what all u zergs are saying is that nothing should be able to stop ur BLs, corruptor, infestor deathball? It's not even like once terran gets a few ghosts out, it's gg for u. And u need macro like MVP to reach those high ghost counts. Still, the zerg deathball trades decent with high ghost counts, and then u can remax with a lower tier compostition which is better vs. terran's ghost/viking. Ghosts does not COUNTER every zerg unit. They do very good vs. infestors and BLs, and still the zerg can trade ecually with u. Ghosts are acutally not that cost effective vs. ultras, marauders work better.
Maybe it could be zergs time to change up things if they think ghosts are a problem? But naaah, nerfing terran some more seems better when terran is already the weakest race in lategame.
I really don't see how zerg can lose w/ a deathball now. How are u supposed to take out BLs w/ corruptor and infestor support? Vikings are not cost effective enough, Ghosts were already hard to get enough of, what now? That's correct....... You let the zerg get to T3 and not kill them before 20 minute mark, you deserve to lose. You and your little T1 marines and T2 tanks shouldnt even be able to breath on zerg T3 units.(holding a straight face.) because our BC's is not as viable as those... zerg is the only race that has a viable T3 carrier, mothership, BC's all is only an overkill strategy PATCH 1.6.2 preview !!! TERRAN REMOVED FROM SC II !!!
Colossi/HTs/Archons/Motherships are all t3.
On February 11 2012 11:43 KJSharp wrote:
High Diamond Terran Player.
I have been struggling mightily against Zerg in general. My win% against Z is around 35-40% in ladder games for the past 2 seasons. Essentially if the game goes longer than 18 minutes, I lost roughly 90% of the time. I believe my problem is largely due to the fact that I haven't gotten enough ghosts, but have invested heavily in marauders when my opponent went Ultralisk and vikings when my opponent went Brood lords. Then, when my opponent tech switched to the other, I was fucked and ended up losing. Over the past few weeks, I have been trying to incorporate ghosts into my late-game TvZ more. Now though, I don't see a point. Terran has no ability to "tech switch" as rapidly as Zerg. That's why the ghost was such a necessary unit - it was the only unit that would aid in the fight against both ultralisks and broodlords. Now, it seems, Blizzard is expecting Terran to tech switch as quickly as Zerg can.
In light of this patch, perhaps Blizzard needs to give Terran a fusion core upgrade that turns all tech labs and reactors into "tech reactors" like in the campaign. Then we could tech switch rapidly and have a chance against Zerg. I find it so unfair that if the Terran and Zerg have played an even match up until the 18 minute mark, that all of a sudden it becomes impossible for the Terran to win. Thanks Blizzard!
It is so sad. I logged on today and was playing a zerg friend, testing the new ladder maps Korhal Compound and Cloud Kingdom. I just couldn't bring myself to care about the game. Normally I'm on the edge of my seat, trying really hard, trying to win, but tonight I was just lethargic. I had to apologize to him because I could tell I wasn't giving him good games and was just wasting his time. The games just didn't seem worth playing. I play a macro style because that is the style the ladder maps intentionally encourage, but I don't think I can play macro games against Zerg anymore. Throughout the game, my heart just sank. I know the patch hasn't even come out yet, but it doesn't matter psychologically since I know it will come. If this change becomes permament, I suppose I'll have to change races or quit the game and move on to another game. I 've been waiting for a FPS game like UT2004 to come out, but none have. Oh well, one can only hope.
You are diamond league. You have bigger problems to worry about besides balance. If terran was in such a bad shape right now, no terrans would be topping GM on the Korean server.
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There is a disgusting amount of whine in this thread.
I hope this patch will make the game produce even more interesting games, and I do find that likely. Great patch Blizz.
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On February 11 2012 11:22 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:21 jgelling wrote:On February 11 2012 11:19 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 11 2012 11:05 lachy89 wrote:On February 11 2012 11:03 Scila wrote:On February 11 2012 10:56 NoobCrunch wrote:On February 11 2012 10:51 On_Slaught wrote:On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Seems like making Snipe unusable on Massive Units would have been a solution that made much more sense. The 2 shot infestor is nice tho. That is assuming that ghost snipe was imbalanced in the first place. Which it wasn't...TvZ was still roughly 50/50 in late games, in fact Zerg has a general advantage in the late game... I believe it would be better for the match up if ghosts countered 1 T3 unit and not the other, making ghosts unable to snipe ultras would make the match-up more interesting imo, and also shouldn't provide zerg with an extreme advantage (I don't think many people would complain that ultras are OP due to not being snipes). ? So let's say a Terran masses Ghosts to prepare for Lategame and the Zerg then just builds Ultras. Terran lost. GG First of all, not necessarily: ultras aren't that great. Second of all, you'll have tanks. Third of all, if you blindly mass any one unit you deserve to lose. GG. So, Terran does not mass Ghosts. Zerg goes Broodlords. Terran lost. GG
Ignore for a moment the current stat change to snipe. And tell me if you think mass ghost in lategame TvZ is currently balanced or not. Don't think about whether the current change is too much or not, just if snipe is currently perfectly fine or not in lategame TvZ.
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On February 11 2012 11:46 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:42 Vertical wrote:On February 11 2012 11:12 bucckevin wrote:On February 11 2012 11:01 Torra wrote:
So basically what all u zergs are saying is that nothing should be able to stop ur BLs, corruptor, infestor deathball? It's not even like once terran gets a few ghosts out, it's gg for u. And u need macro like MVP to reach those high ghost counts. Still, the zerg deathball trades decent with high ghost counts, and then u can remax with a lower tier compostition which is better vs. terran's ghost/viking. Ghosts does not COUNTER every zerg unit. They do very good vs. infestors and BLs, and still the zerg can trade ecually with u. Ghosts are acutally not that cost effective vs. ultras, marauders work better.
Maybe it could be zergs time to change up things if they think ghosts are a problem? But naaah, nerfing terran some more seems better when terran is already the weakest race in lategame.
I really don't see how zerg can lose w/ a deathball now. How are u supposed to take out BLs w/ corruptor and infestor support? Vikings are not cost effective enough, Ghosts were already hard to get enough of, what now? That's correct....... You let the zerg get to T3 and not kill them before 20 minute mark, you deserve to lose. You and your little T1 marines and T2 tanks shouldnt even be able to breath on zerg T3 units.(holding a straight face.) because our BC's is not as viable as those... zerg is the only race that has a viable T3 carrier, mothership, BC's all is only an overkill strategy PATCH 1.6.2 preview !!! TERRAN REMOVED FROM SC II !!! Colossi/HTs/Archons/Motherships are all t3.
mothership overkill hahahahaha xD funniest thing Ive read in a while.
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On February 11 2012 11:47 SC Trickster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:22 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 11 2012 11:21 jgelling wrote:On February 11 2012 11:19 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 11 2012 11:05 lachy89 wrote:On February 11 2012 11:03 Scila wrote:On February 11 2012 10:56 NoobCrunch wrote:On February 11 2012 10:51 On_Slaught wrote:On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Seems like making Snipe unusable on Massive Units would have been a solution that made much more sense. The 2 shot infestor is nice tho. That is assuming that ghost snipe was imbalanced in the first place. Which it wasn't...TvZ was still roughly 50/50 in late games, in fact Zerg has a general advantage in the late game... I believe it would be better for the match up if ghosts countered 1 T3 unit and not the other, making ghosts unable to snipe ultras would make the match-up more interesting imo, and also shouldn't provide zerg with an extreme advantage (I don't think many people would complain that ultras are OP due to not being snipes). ? So let's say a Terran masses Ghosts to prepare for Lategame and the Zerg then just builds Ultras. Terran lost. GG First of all, not necessarily: ultras aren't that great. Second of all, you'll have tanks. Third of all, if you blindly mass any one unit you deserve to lose. GG. So, Terran does not mass Ghosts. Zerg goes Broodlords. Terran lost. GG Ignore for a moment the current stat change to snipe. And tell me if you think mass ghost in lategame TvZ is currently balanced or not. Don't think about whether the current change is too much or not, just if snipe is currently perfectly fine or not in lategame TvZ.
Yeah, I think it is fine. What else is terran gonna do? Mass vikings just to die to ultralisk tech switches like in the past (before we learned to use ghosts?), I already see it coming, terran won't have an answer to zerg lategame tech switches. You mass 25 vikings to kill a pure lategame zerg sky army, zerg then tech switches to mass ultralisk and your vikings are worthless.
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On February 11 2012 11:47 VIPIrony wrote:
I think the snipe change is fine, you'll still be able to defeat infestor/broodlord. Snipe the infestors, have vikings for the rest. Infestors are fat, big, ugly and slow. So they should be easy targets with cloak leaving the broods open. Comes down to micro instead of terran just mass sniping everything like it's no biggie.
That would work...... if Snipe had a range of over 9,000.
At the moment, snipe is ten range, fungal is (I think?) ten range with two radius, and broodlord range is 9.5. As such, you can't get in range to snipe the infestors before the Broodlords kill all your ghosts.
Cloak doesn't matter that much, since Overseers can be behind the Broodlords, or just follow-commanded on them. Fungal can also de-cloak DT's and Ghosts.
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The reason for the ghost nerf was that they could unload over a thousand damage ( when you stacked ghosts) before the zerg army could get in range, personally as a zerg player i didnt mind the ghost damage but i felt the way to deal with spell casters should be with your own spell casters.
Like ghosts emp high temps etc but in the late game TvZ infestors do nothing to mass ghosts, infestors didnt have any spell to drain mana like feedback or emp and a mind control to emp was asking way to much since ghost were always behind siege tanks.
I guess in the end this fix was probably the best way to go but we will see.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I've been thinking about the ghost change, and 25 base damage seems too low. I understand Blizzard wants broodlords & ultras to be a little more effective vs ghosts, but 20 snipes to kill an ultra and 9 snipes for a broodlord is too drastic of a change. Something like 30 (+15 psionic) should be significant enough of a change without crippling ghosts vs non psionic units. Also, we all know the real problem for ultras are marauders and Blizzard seems adamant in not touching that unit. Goodness knows why.
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On February 11 2012 11:47 Testuser wrote:
There is a disgusting amount of whine in this thread.
I hope this patch will make the game produce even more interesting games, and I do find that likely. Great patch Blizz.
If storm was changed to do half damage to armored units, you'd see Protoss whining.
If Colossus were 15 + 15 to light, you'd also see Protoss whining.
This change is huge, and completely unwarranted, as Terran still loses slightly more in late game TvZ at the pro level, and have generally the weakest late game.
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Don't know if this has been mentioned but wouldn't the new +25 (as opposed to flat 40) versus psionic only matter in TvT? as Infestors and HT die in 2 snipes anyway
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On February 11 2012 11:53 SYLKi wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned but wouldn't the new +25 (as opposed to flat 40) versus psionic only matter in TvT? as Infestors and HT die in 2 snipes anyway
Infestor has 1hp instant regen, so no. it does matter in TvZ, if only a bit.
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EPT
