On January 26 2012 09:39 J.E.G. wrote: The carrier should stay in the game regardless of how viable it is. Sure it doesn't fit any practical roles, but I think I can speak for any sc2 fan when i say that as soon as a carrier pops in a pro level game, everyone watching goes "OH SHIT HE GOT CARRIERS!!!!!" and proceeds to shit pants. Is this not a good enough reason in and of itself?
And loses the game straight after that, or was already so much ahead that he would've won either way :\
On January 26 2012 11:49 sickle wrote: I agree 100%. If a protoss unit needs to be removed, it should be the collosus rather than the carrier.
no way usa dude! colossus is our precious! removing colossus is like removing broodlords for zerg or thors for terran dude.
The argument is not that the colossus isn't a great unit - we know it is. But it's a stupid unit. Unit balance can change drastically from now until the game is released but design and what's included is much less likely to change. The colossus is as un-Protoss of a unit as there is and it has no place in the lore and no style whatsoever. Whoever came up with it had very little imagination on that day.
Meanwhile, the carrier is the quintessential Protoss unit. When you think of BGH, you think of carriers. When you think of Tassadar, you think of the carrier. When you think of the Overmind, you think of the carrier. Hyperion might be cooler, but Gantrithor is the most majestic and most important ship in the Starcraft universe, and it is a culmination of the entire race.
It might be difficult to fix, but it seems like Blizzard hasn't even tried. :| It's a shame given it's one of the best units Blizzard has ever designed in any game, and it has a long and powerful history. It's situational, as with every other capital ship, but it should be dominant when seen in the right hands. In WoL, the game is designed such that most end game compositions are already anti-carrier, but this is a new game and a chance to fix that mistake.
I hate Bisu but I get chills from him in this video because of the carrier.
On January 27 2012 02:31 Jibba wrote: Meanwhile, the carrier is the quintessential Protoss unit. When you think of BGH, you think of carriers. When you think of Tassadar, you think of the carrier. When you think of the Overmind, you think of the carrier. Hyperion might be cooler, but Gantrithor is the most impressive and most important ship in the Starcraft universe, and it is a culmination of the entire race.
It might be difficult to fix, but it seems like Blizzard hasn't even tried. :| It's a shame given its one of the best units Blizzard has ever designed in any game, and it has a long and powerful history.
I hate Bisu but I get chills from him in this video because of the carrier.
Great post, even right now, mostly in team games though, the Carrier can be a fantastic mass unit, much like people going mass void ray, if your dealing with a lot of zergs you'll most likely be dealing with corrupters because they seem like the obvious thing to get, upgraded Carriers absolutely slaughter corrupters though, murdering out an equal count without a single loss or a double count with minimal ones, without teammates to cover you or a significant lead they are obviously hard to attain though due to their absurd building speed and terrible movement speed.
I would also like to add that to make the Carrier more viable, they should reduce the building time, why in gods name has the Battlecruiser seen numerous patch changes and attempts at making it more viable while the Carrier is still in the sad state it has been since 1.0?
Edit: Actually, couldn't they just give the carrier a secondary attack or spell that counters muta's? Fuck the Tempest, it cost's about the same anyway (300-300, 350-250 for carrier) and will likely build about as fast and finally when I thought we got rid of unnecessary fanservice female protoss units, our new Tempest driver is another woman, remember Broodwar, where female protoss where fairly mysterious, the whole deal with Raszagal alluding to them having increased prophetic abilities and being less suitable for combat? Well fuck that Dustin Browder said.
To quote from the SC2 WIKI: Female protoss rarely attain positions of power, except among the Nerazim. They are rare among the Templar Caste and were never part of the Conclave. Many protoss have a prejudice against female terrans, as the only one they've had much contact was Kerrigan
Rarely attain positions of power you say? Like running the godamn flagship?
On January 27 2012 01:28 Keyboard Warrior wrote: I get that they want SC2 to be completely different from BW.
But please Blizzard listen to the community. I have not seen a single person who says Carrier should go. Not a sinlge one. Save the Carrier please
You clearly haven't read the whole thread.
Also, I don't know why so many people jump on the kill-colossus bandwagon. They want to get rid of the unit that is working as intended to keep the unit that is essentially useless.
It's because we (or at least I) want the reaver back - reeeebu reeeebu reeebu!!!!!!!!
And those like you can always play brood war, which has both reavers and carriers that serve a purpose. Starcraft 2 carriers do not serve a purpose, and therefore must be redesigned or replaced.
I have to admit, I was expecting to see a lot of QQ in this thread. Instead I was pleasantly surprised with a well written OP that makes some very good points.
I agree 100%. I love the carrier, and I don't see how it fixes the deathball issue to simply give up on the carrier and replace it with a super pheonix. Protoss need an "ultimate" unit like the battlecruiser (which you can buy more than one of...)
On January 26 2012 17:51 ceaRshaf wrote: 1) Interceptors are always cloaked. 2) Add "Retreat" ability that calls all the interceptors into the carrier very fast 3) Add an ability "Pulse wave" with cool down that adds an AOL damage to the carrier that consists in a circular blast wave with a decent radius and affects only Air Units.
Why all of these changes?
1) and 2) have the purpose of giving the player a semi control over his interceptors. Making them cloaked means that they are no longer the main target all the time.
Well usually most players will just focus down the carrier, so idk if the cloak would help things. But your other ideas are creative, if nothing else it really shows there are nearly limitless possibilities Blizz could look into to fix the carrier and the deathball.
I sort of feel that the game should be designed around Carriers. I really do hope they keep it, although I was looking forward to the AA splash of the tempest as well. Maybe a smaller Corsair type unit would be better.
Make them microable like in SC1 or something in that direction (having interceptors out and enabling them to instantly switch all of them to another target while flying the carrier out of reach)
Nerf or replace the colossus instead. Many people would like to see more carriers and many people find the colossus boring and dull. The reaver had much more micro involved. Everybody likes the cute reavers
Oh, after I read some of the previous posts it seems like pretty much everyone felt the same about carrier > colossus and bring reaver back Nice to see many people feel the same.
I think the carrier just needs to be reworked in Hots
imo, I'd suggest a decrease in build time (and maybe 1 food?) but a nerf in the damage in order to balance it back out. Carriers do a lot of dps but right now they just cost too much food and time to build even in the late game. There is this timing where you have a huge food gap when trying to get just a couple carriers out. So I suggest decrease in buildtime/food but decrease in damage as well.
On January 27 2012 03:01 TheToast wrote: I have to admit, I was expecting to see a lot of QQ in this thread. Instead I was pleasantly surprised with a well written OP that makes some very good points.
I agree 100%. I love the carrier, and I don't see how it fixes the deathball issue to simply give up on the carrier and replace it with a super pheonix. Protoss need an "ultimate" unit like the battlecruiser (which you can buy more than one of...)
On January 26 2012 17:51 ceaRshaf wrote: 1) Interceptors are always cloaked. 2) Add "Retreat" ability that calls all the interceptors into the carrier very fast 3) Add an ability "Pulse wave" with cool down that adds an AOL damage to the carrier that consists in a circular blast wave with a decent radius and affects only Air Units.
Why all of these changes?
1) and 2) have the purpose of giving the player a semi control over his interceptors. Making them cloaked means that they are no longer the main target all the time.
Well usually most players will just focus down the carrier, so idk if the cloak would help things. But your other ideas are creative, if nothing else it really shows there are nearly limitless possibilities Blizz could look into to fix the carrier and the deathball.
Good write-up OP
In broodwar carriers were a back and forth unit, that needed a lot of micro. They were used specific on maps with clifs and dead space. The carrier is not good in open space, without ground support. So you fight with the terrain by your side.
If you attack on the edge of an island with back and forth micro were the marines are out of reach of the carriers but in line of the interceptors these abilities are great. Also and AOE anti air spell will fend off vikings. In other words it makes it worth the cost.
Now the actual design of the carrier makes them useless. Kill the interceptors and you have a very costly flying egg. Not to talk about the balance of unit (cost, tech required, DPS and health). Blizzard need to at leas try. We have to agree that the Tempest is not a Starcraft unit. It's an A move unit.
I'm still bummed about the carrier, I feel if blizzard put a little more effort into them, and made them more like the BW carrier, they would be used ALOT more.
Well, I hope the Carrier gets kept. I don't think it's UP, it just isn't too useful compared to other high-tier units that Protoss has. I think the other units are what need changing.
On January 27 2012 03:14 Xyik wrote: Removing colossus in favor of carrier would be great if that also resulted in stalkers and storm getting slightly buffed.
I support this. I love the Carrier, and I really, *really* hope it doesn't get removed. So many games of Starcraft, and yet I always look forward to "Carrier has arrived."
I mean, really, "Tempest has arrived." Screw that.
I remember seeing how effective carriers were in the pvt matchup in bw, it felt like killing tanks with carriers was almost a good counter, in sc2 terran goes bio now, but not always! I feel as if when terran switch their playstyle to more mech than so should toss. they should be able to make carriers as a counter to mech when terran cuts his bio
On January 26 2012 09:39 J.E.G. wrote: The carrier should stay in the game regardless of how viable it is. Sure it doesn't fit any practical roles, but I think I can speak for any sc2 fan when i say that as soon as a carrier pops in a pro level game, everyone watching goes "OH SHIT HE GOT CARRIERS!!!!!" and proceeds to shit pants. Is this not a good enough reason in and of itself?
Also, I still feel it is too early to count them out. How long had BW been out until Bisu popularized phoenix/dt?
EPT
