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We Must Fight For The Carrier - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Affluenza
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom214 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-04 20:40:37
March 04 2012 20:39 GMT
#461
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...
My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.
Ventor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States336 Posts
March 04 2012 20:45 GMT
#462
On March 05 2012 05:39 Affluenza wrote:
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...


Do you realize how quick the game would die if all the nostalgic units were put into the game and balance was not their concern? People are so selfish these days and can't see past their own desires.
oGsMc - EGHuK - White-Ra - SlayerSBoxeR - STBomber Fighting!~
MichaelDonovan
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1453 Posts
March 04 2012 20:46 GMT
#463
On March 05 2012 05:18 frozenrb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 04:46 Kimaker wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:42 frozenrb wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:36 1Eris1 wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:29 frozenrb wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:15 Kimaker wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:08 Ventor wrote:
Why do you people refuse to accept change? The carrier didn't fit into what Blizzard had designed so they are removing it. I'm sorry that you don't like it but you need understand Blizzard's decision. Just because YOU like it and think it fits in the game, doesnt mean Blizzard does as well and they are in charge of balance, not you. Please stop complaining, look forward to what HOTS will bring, not what it's taking away.

Listen buddy....

I'm already 99% resolved to not bother with HOTS. This would push me to 100%. The Carrier is more than a unit, it's an emblem, a symbol of an entire race in the game. For 10 years this unit encapsulated the essence of "protoss" for a large number of people and you're going to chalk up our argument to "refuse to accept change"?

Fine, maybe we are being stubborn, but at least try and understand where we're coming from here. There's a history. A deep one. We're not just screaming to save it because, because because, but rather because there's an emotional attachment.

And hell, beyond that Blizzard really HASN'T done anything to try and make the unit viable.


That's the problem with game industry. If game developers delete something from game, something witch many people identify with, there are 99% of people who thinks that sux.

Tell me how many of you saw usage of Carrier in tournaments?? Maybe 2-3 times??? This is eSport game.

Bliizzard hasn't done anything to change it because it's that emblem, a symbol of an entire race in the game... You want them to be small, fast?? Or what ?? I see many people after that kinds of changes bitching all the time. "Oh oh it's carrier why it is so small blizzard make huuuge mistake.. it should be flagship of protos.. BIG, SLOW, AND rape shit..." Because it is like it is people don't use it. SC2 is by design very fast game.



By that arguement we should get rid of broodlords and tanks too.


And, battlecruiser

I know that you will point that out, but Zerg have units with support broodlords, they are great siege units with infestor and other compositions. They are constructed from unit that you can actually use, not tech patch witch by design is broken.

edit.

And carriers look stupid.

You look stupid.

^_^


I had to check on google how they look, that often they are used.


You could have just played the game.
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
March 04 2012 20:53 GMT
#464
Collosus took away its role(kinda) and its even more versatile match up wise. I can live without Carrier, it would have no meaning in current engine/micro ability. However im angry because collosus is the most lame boring and strong unit, and im sad they are not removing it. I have general dislike to idea of getting 2-4 units and getting massive advantage just because of making them.
Stork[gm]
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
March 04 2012 20:56 GMT
#465
On March 05 2012 05:45 Ventor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 05:39 Affluenza wrote:
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...


Do you realize how quick the game would die if all the nostalgic units were put into the game and balance was not their concern? People are so selfish these days and can't see past their own desires.


Balance can always be tweaked, but the existence of units cannot. The carrier is one of the most iconic units in the game following probably the zergling, hydralisk, zealot, and siege tank.
Affluenza
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom214 Posts
March 04 2012 21:02 GMT
#466
On March 05 2012 05:45 Ventor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 05:39 Affluenza wrote:
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...


Do you realize how quick the game would die if all the nostalgic units were put into the game and balance was not their concern? People are so selfish these days and can't see past their own desires.


Riiight...

Blizzard announced the Swarm Host which is essentially a Lurker but shitter in many respects...

The Viper is essentially the Defiler but with more casting abilities...

Blizzard has gone out of its way to pretend they don't wanna go down the bw route but they introduce new units very similar to bw units just under a new name and and try to tell us differently.

My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 04 2012 21:04 GMT
#467
On March 05 2012 04:37 Forikorder wrote:
sure for some BW peeps who havent gotten it through there heads this isnt BW2 the carrier is a cool unit


that is the entire point of this discussion. blizzard could either A) actually try to fix their game and include the carrier, a staple of the starcraft universe, or B) take the easy (read: dumb) way out and introduce new units as a quickfix bandaid for their broken game
starleague forever
frozenrb
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland389 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-04 21:10:02
March 04 2012 21:05 GMT
#468
On March 05 2012 05:46 MichaelDonovan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 05:18 frozenrb wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:46 Kimaker wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:42 frozenrb wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:36 1Eris1 wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:29 frozenrb wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:15 Kimaker wrote:
On March 05 2012 04:08 Ventor wrote:
Why do you people refuse to accept change? The carrier didn't fit into what Blizzard had designed so they are removing it. I'm sorry that you don't like it but you need understand Blizzard's decision. Just because YOU like it and think it fits in the game, doesnt mean Blizzard does as well and they are in charge of balance, not you. Please stop complaining, look forward to what HOTS will bring, not what it's taking away.

Listen buddy....

I'm already 99% resolved to not bother with HOTS. This would push me to 100%. The Carrier is more than a unit, it's an emblem, a symbol of an entire race in the game. For 10 years this unit encapsulated the essence of "protoss" for a large number of people and you're going to chalk up our argument to "refuse to accept change"?

Fine, maybe we are being stubborn, but at least try and understand where we're coming from here. There's a history. A deep one. We're not just screaming to save it because, because because, but rather because there's an emotional attachment.

And hell, beyond that Blizzard really HASN'T done anything to try and make the unit viable.


That's the problem with game industry. If game developers delete something from game, something witch many people identify with, there are 99% of people who thinks that sux.

Tell me how many of you saw usage of Carrier in tournaments?? Maybe 2-3 times??? This is eSport game.

Bliizzard hasn't done anything to change it because it's that emblem, a symbol of an entire race in the game... You want them to be small, fast?? Or what ?? I see many people after that kinds of changes bitching all the time. "Oh oh it's carrier why it is so small blizzard make huuuge mistake.. it should be flagship of protos.. BIG, SLOW, AND rape shit..." Because it is like it is people don't use it. SC2 is by design very fast game.



By that arguement we should get rid of broodlords and tanks too.


And, battlecruiser

I know that you will point that out, but Zerg have units with support broodlords, they are great siege units with infestor and other compositions. They are constructed from unit that you can actually use, not tech patch witch by design is broken.

edit.

And carriers look stupid.

You look stupid.

^_^


I had to check on google how they look, that often they are used.


You could have just played the game.


Yea I didn't play game for a loooooong time. Maybe I should, but at my lvl of play where people copy pro's and try do tournament things, builds I saw Carrier maybe once in three months.


edit. Don't you thing that unit witch isn't used since beta no matter other units patch changes, should be removed ?

I feel like many units from BW aren't as good like there were in BW. Hydras... even scv's :D
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
March 04 2012 21:10 GMT
#469
I've always wondered what would kill SC2. It turns out that it's likely going to be the memory of SC1.

Icons. I hate icons, in games, comics, etc. Wherever they are, they always make things worse.

Blizzard had a potentially interesting unit in the Tempest (no, not the HotS Tempest, the original one). It's shields didn't work on air attacks, which focused it into a GtA role, and probably meant that it wasn't very expensive. But no, fan outcry said, "We want Carriers!" So they converted a potentially good unit into Carriers.

SC2 needs to be its own game, with its own iconography. It needs to stand on its own, not ride the coatails of something else. I would have loved to see Zerglings, Hydras, Mutalisks, Zealots, Siege Tanks, Marines, and yes Carriers all get the axe. No returning units except workers.

A new dynamic for a new game. They could have taken each race back to first principles and shown us how those concepts worked with a different tech tree and a different set of units.

But no, Blizzard wanted "iconography." So they kept Siege Tanks, when Thors offered an interesting alternative (again, pre-alpha Thors, not the crap we got in beta and release). They kept Hydras despite the Zerg having a completely different dynamic from SC1 that left Hydras in a wierd place. And so forth.

So what we have is a horrible half-state. The old units keep getting in the way of different ideas, while the new units are constantly railed against for not being ones that were removed.

As for the Carrier's "iconic" status, I don't see it. My abiding memories of SC1 Protoss matches are, in order:

1. Shuttle/Reaver micro murdering workers

2. Dragoon micro around mines

3. Sexy Arbiter usage

4. Storm blankets

These are the things that I consider "iconic" about Protoss in SC1. That's what I think of when I think SC1 Protoss.

Carriers and Carrier micro were always "meh" to me. They always felt like a gimmicky strategy, something you use on the few maps that allow it. Not something solid or standard.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
frozenrb
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland389 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-04 21:13:37
March 04 2012 21:13 GMT
#470

Very good post! NicolBolas, comics are great example here.
DreamChaser
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
1649 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-04 21:16:48
March 04 2012 21:14 GMT
#471
Will i now need new outrageous builds for when i team? No more carrier rushes?

Personally blizzard should keep the carrier in imo, its a unit that is rarely seen. If anybody ever tries to go carriers you know everybody in the crowd is getting excited. Even if they lose it was like when people thought the mothership sucked. HuK tried to mothership rush and it worked once in an MLG game. Never had i seen Day9 and the crowd so excited, thats what the carrier brings. Its not a "winning" strategy but its something that is just exciting and fun to watch no matter how bad the unit is.

Video

+ Show Spoiler +
Plays against every MU with nexus first.
Ventor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States336 Posts
March 04 2012 21:15 GMT
#472
On March 05 2012 06:02 Affluenza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 05:45 Ventor wrote:
On March 05 2012 05:39 Affluenza wrote:
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...


Do you realize how quick the game would die if all the nostalgic units were put into the game and balance was not their concern? People are so selfish these days and can't see past their own desires.


Riiight...

Blizzard announced the Swarm Host which is essentially a Lurker but shitter in many respects...

The Viper is essentially the Defiler but with more casting abilities...

Blizzard has gone out of its way to pretend they don't wanna go down the bw route but they introduce new units very similar to bw units just under a new name and and try to tell us differently.



What's your point? The units you stated serve specific rolls like siege and casting. They are only similar in the roll they provide, the way they go about is completely different.

oGsMc - EGHuK - White-Ra - SlayerSBoxeR - STBomber Fighting!~
Ventor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States336 Posts
March 04 2012 21:18 GMT
#473
On March 05 2012 05:56 JiYan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 05:45 Ventor wrote:
On March 05 2012 05:39 Affluenza wrote:
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...


Do you realize how quick the game would die if all the nostalgic units were put into the game and balance was not their concern? People are so selfish these days and can't see past their own desires.


Balance can always be tweaked, but the existence of units cannot. The carrier is one of the most iconic units in the game following probably the zergling, hydralisk, zealot, and siege tank.


Would people be complaining if they didn't have the carrier at WoL release? No. Just like people aren't bitching about how firebats aren't in the game. Blizzard obviously didn't really feel the carrier fit and that's why they havent buffed or changed it. So let it go and stop being children whining when you don't get what you want.
oGsMc - EGHuK - White-Ra - SlayerSBoxeR - STBomber Fighting!~
frozenrb
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland389 Posts
March 04 2012 21:18 GMT
#474
On March 05 2012 06:14 DreamChaser wrote:
Will i now need new outrageous builds for when i team? No more carrier rushes?

Personally blizzard should keep the carrier in imo, its a unit that is rarely seen. If anybody ever tries to go carriers you know everybody in the crowd is getting excited. Even if they lose it was like when people thought the mothership sucked. HuK tried to mothership rush and it worked once in an MLG game. Never had i seen Day9 and the crowd so excited, thats what the carrier brings. Its not a "winning" strategy but its something that is just exciting and fun to watch no matter how bad the unit is.


People get excited because carrier usage is so much risk, that it isn't funny.

People don't think " o shit BW unit... carrier so good so rarely seen", people think... " he can't be serious, if that works I will eat my shirt", they are hoping carrier to work for the same reasons that many people want to have it in Hots... it's just a symbol.
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-04 21:21:53
March 04 2012 21:18 GMT
#475
Here's how I would have changed the Protoss arsenal in HotS:

  • Added the Oracle - Nice idea for a harassment unit.
  • Added the Replicant - Interesting idea, using non-massive Terran/Zerg units against the opponent.
  • Added the Tempest - Instead as a replacement for the Phoenix instead of the Carrier. Rather than be the "large capital ship" Blizzard suggests, it would be a small, cheap, cost effective ship that can not only deal light splash damage on clumps of airborne units but can also deal moderate single target damage on ground units.
  • Removed the Mothership - Mass Recall instead at the Nexus.
  • Added Vortex (although a smaller radius one) to Carriers, to make them a viable replacement for the Mothership.
  • Removed the Phoenix - Phoenixes are pointless. They are underpowered, expensive and generally not that good against other airborne targets such as Corruptors, Vikings, Mutalisks, Void Rays, Carriers and Battlecruisers. They especially suck ass against any ground unit that can shoot upwards, and suck even more against the units that can't shoot upwards. Ever tried killing a moderately sized (around 20 - 25) roach force with a moderate (10 - 12) amount of phoenixes? You can't because the roaches can just a move and destroy your base before you can kill even five of them.
Footler
Profile Joined January 2010
United States560 Posts
March 04 2012 21:19 GMT
#476
Call me crazy but couldn't Blizzard just leave the Carrier in the game as is for no other reason than the fact that it is iconic for the protoss? It's not like it is (currently) affecting balance in any way.
I am The-Sink! Parting bandwagoner before it became a soul train.
frozenrb
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland389 Posts
March 04 2012 21:20 GMT
#477
On March 05 2012 06:19 Footler wrote:
Call me crazy but couldn't Blizzard just leave the Carrier in the game as is for no other reason than the fact that it is iconic for the protoss? It's not like it is (currently) affecting balance in any way.


It's unused place on hard-drive, the same reason people want to drive electric cars. It's bad for ecology.
Fealthas
Profile Joined May 2011
607 Posts
March 04 2012 21:21 GMT
#478
You commented on how the protoss army is one size fits all. I wish it was not that way. Protoss seems to have only one thing which works which to me is a design flaw. I hope blizzard makes carriers able to actually do something ingame.
Affluenza
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom214 Posts
March 04 2012 21:23 GMT
#479
On March 05 2012 06:15 Ventor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 06:02 Affluenza wrote:
On March 05 2012 05:45 Ventor wrote:
On March 05 2012 05:39 Affluenza wrote:
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...


Do you realize how quick the game would die if all the nostalgic units were put into the game and balance was not their concern? People are so selfish these days and can't see past their own desires.


Riiight...

Blizzard announced the Swarm Host which is essentially a Lurker but shitter in many respects...

The Viper is essentially the Defiler but with more casting abilities...

Blizzard has gone out of its way to pretend they don't wanna go down the bw route but they introduce new units very similar to bw units just under a new name and and try to tell us differently.



What's your point? The units you stated serve specific rolls like siege and casting. They are only similar in the roll they provide, the way they go about is completely different.



Haha hilarious...

Ok so its not the roles that units play its the way they go about that is imba?

Riiiight...you have absolutely idea what you are talking about and need to stop Brown nosing.
My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.
Ventor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States336 Posts
March 04 2012 21:26 GMT
#480
On March 05 2012 06:23 Affluenza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 06:15 Ventor wrote:
On March 05 2012 06:02 Affluenza wrote:
On March 05 2012 05:45 Ventor wrote:
On March 05 2012 05:39 Affluenza wrote:
If Lurker couldn't make it into the game based on iconic-ness I don't see what chance the Carrier has based on the same nostalgia and iconic representations.

Blizzard just doesn't care about its fans feelings on the franchise...


Do you realize how quick the game would die if all the nostalgic units were put into the game and balance was not their concern? People are so selfish these days and can't see past their own desires.


Riiight...

Blizzard announced the Swarm Host which is essentially a Lurker but shitter in many respects...

The Viper is essentially the Defiler but with more casting abilities...

Blizzard has gone out of its way to pretend they don't wanna go down the bw route but they introduce new units very similar to bw units just under a new name and and try to tell us differently.



What's your point? The units you stated serve specific rolls like siege and casting. They are only similar in the roll they provide, the way they go about is completely different.



Haha hilarious...

Ok so its not the roles that units play its the way they go about that is imba?

Riiiight...you have absolutely idea what you are talking about and need to stop Brown nosing.


When did I say they were imba? You're just pulling shit out of your ass and I have no idea what you're trying to argue. You really should gather your ideas before spewing nonsense all over these forums. And by the way, laughing at me doesn't strengthen your 'argument'.
oGsMc - EGHuK - White-Ra - SlayerSBoxeR - STBomber Fighting!~
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