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By swallowing evil words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach. ~Winston Churchill |
So, I laid some theorycraft in the previous thread... and I am going to embellish a bit here on that foundation. Keep in mind this is going only by factual points (ie, aLive wanted to leave, and said he has wanted to for some time now; Fnatic's translator talked to aLive; aLive talked to the translator and then Fnatic management; Coach Lee learned of it before aLive went to Coach Lee (which he states he was going to do). Everything else is general psychological profiling psychobabble and more of a certain razor style.)
So, originally, I had suggested that aLive talked to the translator, Coach Lee found out, and reacted poorly before there was a chance to resolve the issue, possibly because past events may have left Lee on the somewhat paranoid side where foreign teams and Korean players are concerned. Reasonable thought process - the contracts came about after Puma went to EG. Now, I'm revising, revisiting, and restructuring for additional factual points.
Soooo... here goes. aLive has been unhappy with TSL for awhile. Probably not solely due to money, from the general gist of his comments. He doesn't want to stay. He tells Coach Lee this back when Clyde and Sung left that he wants to leave. Jyp also wants to leave. (He talks about having a good offer at that time, but doesn't say from whom.) aLive is convinced to stay reluctantly with TSL, and that stays the status quo for a little bit. (Why? Maybe because aLive is less assertive in wanting to go, maybe because he doesn't want to leave TSL with only Polt as a first-rank name. Who knows?) His friend, who happens to also be a Fnatic translator, at some point wind up talking about how aLive is unhappy with TSL, maybe talk about how another team (like Fnatic) operates. Since aLive already has talked with his friend the translator, he wants to talk to Fnatic management. He sees that maybe he can find a way out of a place he doesn't want to be in (for whatever reason). After that conversation, aLive feels pretty confident that he has found his way to leave TSL without an extremely negative impact to himself - think of it as not telling your boss that you're interviewing for another job. That is also quite common in the business world, because it can severely hurt your career if you prematurely approach the subject. (Think of this... do you tell your boss that you can't stand working there BEFORE you have a way out that you feel is realistically possible? I don't, it would at minimum harm morale. Especially if they already know I'm unhappy.) So, aLive is feeling okay, and preparing himself to talk to Coach Lee. Unfortunately, Coach Lee becomes aware of it by reading the Skype logs (however he got them, legality of which is not something I'm going to address) and instead has a chat with aLive before aLive has a handle on how to approach Coach Lee. The psychodynamics of that discussion could possibly be described as "tense" - Coach Lee hurt and possibly paranoid, while aLive knows he hasn't handled it well because of the emotions involved. At the end of the discussion, aLive is left with an impression that things have been worked out well enough, and that Coach Lee understands at least some of what is going on. At least enough for Coach Lee to feel that things like transfer fees are taken care of. Unrelated to this, yes Fnatic was pursuing a partnership with TSL. At some point in the background, Fnatic decided (for financial reasons, they say) to abandon their partnership inquiries with TSL. Coach Lee decides that 1 + 1 = 3(!) and goes public with what he is convinced must be the real case. Later, he backs away from this slightly, because after the initial emotional impact, he realizes that it may be not entirely the truth. aLive is aware of how things have mishandled, and freely admits it as well as showing willingness to pay the penalty for how things have turned out. aLive knows he could have done it better, but then he also indicated his general unhappiness at TSL - which may have been contributing to how things all set up. And Coach Lee (for good or bad) seems to be genuinely passionate about his team, and may not have been thinking clearly either. Fnatic, possibly because of all the myriad factors involved, didn't want to guarantee anything and their discussion with aLive may have left aLive to handle the aspects in Korea because he would have a much better handle (culturally and as a member of TSL) to talk to Coach Lee without possible misunderstandings from language and cultural issues. So when it all hits the fan, Fnatic (which may well have offered to pick up aLive if he became available, at aLive's request) publically states all that they did while keeping a distance from events.
No one is really being "evil" (except of course for EG, because hey it's in their name), there was a lot of miscommunication and potential "padding" to avoid sharp corners and hurt feelings by the two main principles, and the SC2 community already has their pitchforks and torches ready to jump on any passing interpretation. People that keep saying "let's wait for the facts" are missing that we already have the most salient facts available, and that we will likely never know the actual events with any certainty. (Already we have people saying "I was there and saw X". However, that's not facts. That's hearsay. And witness testimony is great in court but still not necessarily factual.) Unless maybe someone has a time machine and a camcorder...
Sorry for wall of text, I just kindof kept typing as I thought... o.O
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This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
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this is quite sad, aLive was clearly on a contract. fnatic should have discussed with coach Lee about a player transfer. that would have been the correct approach
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On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you
If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
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What the hell, a coach that spies on his team member's personal skype convo's?
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On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering.
If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
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On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice.
I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
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On January 21 2012 03:56 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice. I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player. Logic check please.
Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
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On January 21 2012 03:56 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice. I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player.
I believe you can break the contract you will just have to pay the fee associated with that as described in the contract. If teams will put this into the contract (which I think I read that he did pay the fee) then there isn't a problem legally. If there is no legal problem I do not see the problem.
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I can't seem to see the big conflict here...
If alive is going to pay the fee, then what can you really do? He's under the contract, he's going to pay his fee, so whats up?
The only thing I see is that the contract restricted Alive from tlaking to other management, which is still in the works.
I thought Lee's team was done in the last time he created a shitstorm. But TSL was still there in the scene. IMO, this will create even worse press for TSL and he'll really be done in this time...
Sure, tampering with another team player is bad etiquette, and Alive was taken by money offered by Fnatic... but Alive is also risking so much by doing this. It's his decision, and 8000 is a lot to pay for a progamer. Lee needs to raise his fee or pay his players more to secure them. It's only his fault for bad mangement. It's no loophole if you have a huge ass fee to pay.
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On January 21 2012 04:04 Akta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:56 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice. I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player. Logic check please. Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better.
SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
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On January 21 2012 05:08 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:04 Akta wrote:On January 21 2012 03:56 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice. I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player. Logic check please. Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better. SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds. Sorry for being unclear. The logic check was about the lack of a problem to solve.
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the problem is pretend fnatic and tsl are google and microsoft.
google comes along and tries to play buddy buddy/partnership up with microsoft. things seem to be going well until you (the owner of microsoft) hear rumors of google trying to recruit your chief financial officer while trying to form the partnership. that's definitely a level of trust and respect that was broken. if i was the coach of tsl, i'd be pretty pissed too.
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On January 21 2012 05:08 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:04 Akta wrote:On January 21 2012 03:56 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice. I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player. Logic check please. Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better. SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
Only if the contracts reflect that.
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On January 21 2012 05:08 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:04 Akta wrote:On January 21 2012 03:56 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice. I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player. Logic check please. Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better. SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
Technically, SC2 teams are not even remotely close to NHL/NFL/FIFA/NBA/etc. If anything, they may be closer to Olympic gymnastics teams - where the team provides you with training and support, and take some of the credit, but you don't hear them saying "Damn, US Gymnastics (or Figure Skating, Ice Dancing, whatever) are amazing!" You're more likely to hear "YEAH MARY LOU! USA USA!" The parameters of professional SC2 make the individual players far more visible and important than the team. (How many people follow the player from team to team? Saying you like EG because Jyp or Huk is on it but you liked Liquid or TSL before that for the same reason is nothing like saying "I liked Clemens on the Sox, but I hated him on the Rangers squad.") Also, the nature of the majority of tourneys/matches are individual - the big money is in individual tournaments, and even team tournaments rely on individuals playing in individual matches. (Team 2v2, 4v4 leagues... that would be interesting but messy.)
I've said it before... the current eSports culture in SC2 might be better compared to Golf or Tennis, but with the additional team layer between players and sponsors. Teams are important, don't get me wrong... they provide combined services of training, support, and agency of the players to sponsors, as well as minor things like travel. But we don't like a player because he's a solid, okay guy on a team we love's B-squad. (Speaking in very general terms - some superfans might.) But even as a casual fan of the Patriots (flamebait) in the NFL, I can still tell you the names of non-main squad players and be a fan for them because of their good work for the Pats. Nothing flashy, maybe, but they help Tom Brady and the Gronk do their thing.
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On January 21 2012 05:24 akalarry wrote:
the problem is pretend fnatic and tsl are google and microsoft.
google comes along and tries to play buddy buddy/partnership up with microsoft. things seem to be going well until you (the owner of microsoft) hear rumors of google trying to recruit your chief financial officer while trying to form the partnership. that's definitely a level of trust and respect that was broken. if i was the coach of tsl, i'd be pretty pissed too.
Not remotely. There is no trust between two corporations, no matter how close they may get. They may cooperate on a common project, but they are sharpening their knives for the backstabbing to come later. Check with any of the corporate groups that work together for a "standard" in electronics, then will quickly bust out the patents to sue you into the ground if you are doing something that threatens them.
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Polt must feel bad about having left Prime for TSL... Spying on your own players, threaten them through an article on the internet and still be able to look at yourself in the mirror? I thought IdrA was the most arrogant person in the professional SC2 scene but coach Lee proved me wrong. I guess we can call TSL a team of no-names now except for Revival and Polt. Losing 8 players (Rain, JYP, FruitDealer, Killer, Trickster, Clide, Heart and now aLive) in less than a year is pretty bad.
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On January 19 2012 01:30 NuclearJudas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:27 Fionn wrote:
From these stories, the blame has to lie on Alive and the translator for Fnatic who went over his head trying to poach a player who was under contract for six more months. In the end, Fnatic will sign Alive, and TSL will be left with another gaping hole. Now is the time to see if Polt and Hyun will stand behind Lee or leave as well since I don't think either would have trouble at all finding a new team. I agree 100%. Will be interesting to see what happens after this.
So there's no blame on coach lee and him going on aLive's skype an reading info that wasnt his to read, printing it off, and invading his privacy? I think some people need to reevaluate their morality here cause thats far more wrong then what aLive did. An atleast aLive ownes up to his part in it unlike coach lee who is nothing more the a hypocritical ass always pretending to be the victim. If he wants to cry fowl on poaching then maybe he himself shouldnt have done it before either cause he's no room to do so.
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On January 21 2012 05:08 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:04 Akta wrote:On January 21 2012 03:56 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 03:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On January 21 2012 03:08 chadissilent wrote:On January 21 2012 02:04 arcHoniC wrote:
This seems silly, If i want to work for a different company i will for sure explore my other options before quitting my job. You wouldn't want to be quit and then be jobless for some unknown amount of time do you. And if you tell your boss you are looking for another job it will just put everything on edge.
aLive did nothing wrong
good luck in code S, Ill be rooting for you If you're a professional athlete and are under contract to a team, you can not speak with other teams before your contract is up. If they speak with you or publicly suggest they would like you on their team, it is considered tampering. If you listened to Alex Garfield, players under contract speaking with other teams is common practice. I have a feeling that this practice will end soon. It's undermining the entire business. Imagine if your favourite Hockey/Football/Baseball player decided he wanted to make more money and just broke his contract with your team to join another. The sport would lose a lot of credibility if players could just switch teams like that. There are hefty fines/penalties for breaking contracts and/or tampering that prevents this from happening. I think future contracts will include a tampering/breach-of-contract clause that will impose heavy fines on the player. Logic check please. Imagine what things would be like if people wanted to make more money and took jobs that paid better. SC2 Teams are closer to NHL/NFL teams than they are to Best Buy and McDonalds.
the paychecks aren't.
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EPT
