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On December 23 2011 00:26 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 15:01 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 22 2011 14:24 VGhost wrote:On December 22 2011 14:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 22 2011 13:31 SCPlato wrote:On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote:
Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it. completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good. Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean? idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind. 'twas an honest question, I wasn't there when he went over. First series I recall seeing is him losing 1-2 to Trap in the Gom Classic, and then he was part of that list of players that included Tossgirl and the old legends (Boxer, Yellow, Reach, etc.) whom we always looked for in the offline prelims but kept losing in the first round. Anyway, why do you believe there's "no question" that he was better than those players? His TLPD entry gives him an 8-20 record, Flying is 85-83 (over 50%), hyvaa is 156-151 (over 50%) and Juni is 99-120. And they've played some high calibre players too. Hell, Pokju was 38-38. Unfortunately, I never really followed the players who didn't have televised matches (because, well, they didn't have televised matches) so I really don't have any way to measure his performance on a fair metric. Given that you are apparently more knowledgeable than I, can you explain to me where your certainty comes from? Okay: the only one I'm absolutely certain Idra was better than is Juni. Juni is (arguably) the worst A-team Zerg in several years. While he's won some games, he's a poor enough player that I assume he's an auto-loss for KHAN whenever he comes out. The defining moment for me was a playoff game (08-09 season) vs. Hwasin which went down like this: Hwasin bunker-rushed, but placed the bunker too far away from the hatchery and didn't noticed till it was complete. Juni squashed the bunker and countered to Hwasin's nat. Hwasin hadn't yet expanded: Juni then proceeded to lose the game. ( Here's the VOD.) I suppose you could say that's actually a lot like some of idra's blunders that we've seen, but my point is that Juni's still good enough that he gets A-team games regularly (to the despair of KHAN fans). hyvaa came to mind because he's a player very like Idra in style, in that he's dangerous in a macro game. hyvaa's early-game is notoriously weak, while he's nearly brilliant if you let him get his Hive tech up. His first games were a series of ZvPs which he ended up playing almost like ZvT: delay, delay, delay, defiler-lurker-ling. Flying... Flying started hot but has never particularly impressed me apart from occasional PvZ brilliance.
I'm not saying those were great A-teamers, but their results are evidently superior to Idra's. You seem to be comparing their skills to those of other A-teamers, but I get the impression you're using a different metric for Idra. And Juni has wins against Effort, Bisu and Flash. Hyvaa has wins against Jaedong, Flash, Leta, Fantasy and other noteworthy players. Flying has won against Leta and Sea. Idra has dominated foreigner events and taken a series off ACE's GoRush. Otherwise the best players he's beaten are Jaehoon, Shuttle and, well, Flying. In series that he lost.
On December 23 2011 00:26 VGhost wrote:As for your stats: Flying is 54-44 offline (qualifiers and Dream League), but in the televised leagues he's 23-35, not quite 40%. hyvaa's similar: 80-56 in offlines, 70-89 in the regular leagues. Juni's 56-62 offline, 31-50 in regular leagues.
Yes: idra's record is worse than those. 6-16 offline, 2-4 in the one standard event (GOM). But he was good enough to take games off pros – Shuttle, Jaehoon – who are now A-team players. I believe that while he may have gotten some "favoritism" to actually make the team, in the end he was held back: as a "foreigner" and an "older player", his team wouldn't want to take the risk of playing idra enough to truly develop him as a Korean league player. This was compounded by the fact he was with eSTRO, which was struggling anyway and then badly hurt by the betting scandal (and folded at the end of the season). Even though management took the risk of bringing in a foreign player, they had to show results. If there were a stronger team that had picked up foreign players who stayed for a while, then we might have seen them play.
Obviously he had a major disadvantage in not being able to speak the language, that probably takes away a lot of the benefits of playing in a team house. One thing that would really help illuminate this subject would be knowing how long it typically takes for a b-teamer to break through, if they ever do. I don't suppose you know where we could get those?
Incidentally, didn't I play against you in an absolutely atrocious 2v2 in SC2GG's Star Cup a year or two ago? I seem to recall your ID.
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On December 23 2011 04:10 Vinnythechin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 03:54 FatkiddsLag wrote:On December 23 2011 03:51 Vinnythechin wrote:
Why everyone hating on my sexy friend FLO! Yes she is a girl, yes she is terran, 2 advantages to gaming in sc2 by far but still have to give her some credit for putting herself out there and focusing on a goal to become the best, Take initiative in your gaming if you want to be pro, stop typing your rants behind a screen and prove yourself ingame. Play and STFU or Be played and continue being stuck on your bronze ladders. you seem a little too mad for the situation. i have no problem with a team picking up a player because their a girl. but to say "just prove yourself ingame?" she didnt really prove herself as a top gamer. she proved herself and one of the best FEMALE gamers. so as i agree with your point, you need to chill on the ranting. mad lol not even close, more like laughing at all the haters, and she did prove herself as a player by attending these events and to be able to compete for some strive shows more than those who can't or won't. How many people talk shit in this game but never step up when its time to play. Well whats worse, getting comments about their good looks(happened in this thread) and special fan boy treatment, or unusually high questioning of their skills because they are females?
Personally I think the former is worse. Plus people seem to discuss the skills of all players all the time so that part seems like a normal routine in team discussions. Just look at the other discussions about quantics players outside Sase and Naniwa for example.
Also, what do we want, females that can actually compete or female players being cute publicity gimmicks?
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Canada11607 Posts
@Atka
Where exactly in this thread? I think you'd have to really dig to find those comments to back up your preconceived notion. The vast majority of comments on this thread have been:
1) Congratulatory
2) Dismissive or antagonistic and sometimes outright hostile that a team recruited a female (variety of reasons)
3) Argumements supporting a team recruiting a female (variety of reasons)
I'm sure can find some, but the comments about looks and fanboyism are far and few between.
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hopefully female only tournaments become more frequent to make all these recent signings of female players be worth the investment to these teams.
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I love women in SC2. More please more! We have to spread this insanely!
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congratz , gl in your new team
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On December 23 2011 04:09 kappadevin wrote:
Alright. Lets say you and a woman both apply for the same job. We'll say you both have completely identical qualifications for this position, aside from your gender differences. Now we'll say that she gets hired over you for no given reason aside from the fact that she is a woman.
Is that fair to you? Are you satisfied knowing you lost your shot at a job just because she is of the opposite gender? How is that not sexism?
Irrelevant/straw man. Your example would only hold if I had said "Flo should be chosen over a high master male solely because of the fact that she is female." Of course that's absurd and it's not what I said. She was chosen because she has greater revenue potential than the random high master male, and she can join female-only tournaments. Therefore she has different qualifications than Joe Schmoe male high master and deserved to be chosen.
On December 23 2011 04:09 kappadevin wrote:Also on your point of revenue potential: There has been no evidence that female gamers or even female only leagues bring in more revenue. In fact, the DIVINA tournament had less sponsors and a far smaller viewing base than a slow day at the GSL. So if you are going to make the argument that players should be recruited based on gender, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case  .
There's plenty of evidence - stream viewership and website traffic. Some random high master male will bring in like 8 stream viewers, bud. Also your comparison of the DIVINA tournament to the GSL is absurd and irrelevant as no one would expect the DVINIA tourney to compete with GSL. A relevant comparison would have been the sponsorship difference between DIVINIA and any high master tournament, of which there are about a dozen per day.
Hopefully your next response will be a little better thought out because the logic you just used was pretty laughable.
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On December 23 2011 04:46 Falling wrote:
@Atka
Where exactly in this thread? I think you'd have to really dig to find those comments to back up your preconceived notion. The vast majority of comments on this thread have been:
1) Congratulatory
2) Dismissive or antagonistic and sometimes outright hostile that a team recruited a female (variety of reasons)
3) Argumements supporting a team recruiting a female (variety of reasons)
I'm sure can find some, but the comments about looks and fanboyism are far and few between. Would have to guesstimate but the arguing about it being a female from both sides(my two posts included) seem to be most common with congratulation posts second most common.
People don't seem to defend other players skills or whatever without elaborating or using examples so based on that it appears to be lot of special fanboyism.
Like I said in my other post, I don't see a big need for whiteknighting the female players since their skills will speak for themselves if they get good. And let's be honest, regardless if we end up having separate leagues for males and females or not, competitive gaming(or any sport) is about being good at it.
Many females seem to be gifted with extremely fast and good finger coordination and I'm curious about how that could translate to sc2 performance personally and so on. But people should be able to discuss their skills etc like other players without getting whiteknighted. Just like people shouldn't criticize female players just because they are females.
"Sexism" can go both ways and I doubt I would want to get treated like a cute brainless puppy if I was a female player. To be realistic we will probably have to live with a little bit of both but that doesn't mean we have to ignore it.
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congratulations to flo and quantic. I think shes cute :> gl
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Nice pickup. They should pick up Cola-Girl as well, if possible.
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Quantic being smart by not only picking up skillful players but also popular (or "colorful" as they put it) ones. I like their style.
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On December 23 2011 05:24 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:09 kappadevin wrote:
Alright. Lets say you and a woman both apply for the same job. We'll say you both have completely identical qualifications for this position, aside from your gender differences. Now we'll say that she gets hired over you for no given reason aside from the fact that she is a woman.
Is that fair to you? Are you satisfied knowing you lost your shot at a job just because she is of the opposite gender? How is that not sexism?
Irrelevant/straw man. Your example would only hold if I had said "Flo should be chosen over a high master male solely because of the fact that she is female." Of course that's absurd and it's not what I said. She was chosen because she has greater revenue potential than the random high master male, and she can join female-only tournaments. Therefore she has different qualifications than Joe Schmoe male high master and deserved to be chosen. Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:09 kappadevin wrote:Also on your point of revenue potential: There has been no evidence that female gamers or even female only leagues bring in more revenue. In fact, the DIVINA tournament had less sponsors and a far smaller viewing base than a slow day at the GSL. So if you are going to make the argument that players should be recruited based on gender, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case . There's plenty of evidence - stream viewership and website traffic. Some random high master male will bring in like 8 stream viewers, bud. Also your comparison of the DIVINA tournament to the GSL is absurd and irrelevant as no one would expect the DVINIA tourney to compete with GSL. A relevant comparison would have been the sponsorship difference between DIVINIA and any high master tournament, of which there are about a dozen per day. Hopefully your next response will be a little better thought out because the logic you just used was pretty laughable.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors. The idea that she will generate more revenue is being pulled right out of your ass. On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
EDIT: I really am not against her being a girl gamer, I am just against her getting special treatment for being a girl. I honestly feel like it undermines the spirit of competition to purposely sign on a sub-par player just for her to be eye candy for the team.
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On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote:
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote:
On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
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On December 23 2011 07:00 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote:
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors. Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male. Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote:
On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute. EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
EDIT: I mean women have fought for decades for equal treatment, and yet we as a community hold this back from ever happening by basically babying the female gamers. We give them their own tournament, we hold their standard of skill level lower, and we essentially prevent them from really reaching the same level as the males. We perpetuate this cycle because we want to include women in gaming, but in doing so, we inevitably prevent them from reaching the same level of skill as their male counterparts.
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Sweet. More female pro gamers, love it. <3 Wish her the best of luck.
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As a female player myself I wish her the very best and the most success!
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On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote:
If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
User was banned for this post.
That seems to be the way! that and practise
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On December 23 2011 07:07 kappadevin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 07:00 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote:
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors. Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male. On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote:
On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute. EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent. Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense? Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
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gl flo :D its great seeing females in e-sports. she has the skill to back it up too!
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EPT
