HOUSTON, Texas — December 19, 2011 — Quantic gaming is proud to announce the newest addition to our roster, Flo “Flo” Yao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWMU8oOzvKU
Flo’s international success at the Zowie DIVINA tournament coupled with her commitment to StarCraft 2, made her a prime candidate for Quantic as the organization continues to create a more colorful roster. She has recently has taken time off from school to play StarCraft full time and has chosen to part ways with her sponsor ZOWIE in order to focus on growing her skill in a team environment.
Flo said this about the decision,
“My departure from ZOWIE was a hard decision, as they have already helped me a lot, but it needed to be done to join Quantic. Working with ZOWIE limited me from joining many organizations because of competitive sponsors, and I felt that being with an organization at the moment is crucial for my development as a Starcraft 2 player. ZOWIE respected my decision and I am truly grateful for their effort in assisting me through my career. Thank you, ZOWIE.”
As a member of Quantic, Flo will travel and play alongside the rest of the Quantic players to domestic and international events as they arise. In the meantime, Flo will continue her training on her stream on http://www.twitch.tv/helloflo and we encourage everyone to watch as she trains to become not just the best female, but the best gamer overall.
About Quantic Gaming: Quantic Gaming is a revolutionary eSports, new media, and brand-driven organization. Quantic fields numerous competitive gaming teams, with presences in a variety of games including StarCraft 2, Team Fortress 2, Call of Duty, Battlefield 3, and various fighting games. As a subsidiary of Quantic Gaming, Quantic Media delivers compelling production grade media to tens of thousands of viewers each week, and is comprised of one of the most elite teams of directors, producers, and commentators in the industry.
Did not exect that. Hopefully we can see some woman doing it good in the starcraft community. I hope she is dedicated enough to practice hard to beat some of the "guy" pros.
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
No, she can actually play at a competitive level from what I've seen. She isn't some random diamond player.
Certainly isn't going to win an MLG anytime soon most likely, but she is from what I've seen the top foreign female, so I think its cool she's getting some support =].
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
Is every female pro who gets signed by a team grand master? No. He has reason to ask, given the history of female SC2 players on teams.
Please, be realistic. A lot of teams realize that it's a good publicity stunt, and in some cases (as we have seen in the past) they will pick up less skilled players who are female. You don't ever see players of that skill level get picked up who are male.
Congrats to Quantic for signing a female player that can actually have a hope of competing if she puts in the time.
I was really getting sick and tired of "Foreign Team A has signed Diamond Level PrettyGirl B" and acting like they picked said player for her skill rather than her looks.
Furthermore, congratulations on staying away from a sensationalist title like "The amazingly beautiful female gamergurl Flo joins Quantic"
Very impressive and classy by Quantic. Good luck in the future Flo!
This myth that female players get picked based on looks is hilarious because for male players, there's an arms race to look as fugly as possible so every female that takes a shower once a day looks like a supermodel in comparison.
This is cool. Females never did to well in BW which was a damned shame. I hope she can compete at a high level, it sounds like she is putting in the time so let's hope for the best.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
Only those I don't know.
Were not allowed to ask info about unknown players, and if they are not diamond its okay to be part of a big team like Quantic/Razer/Slayers. if they are girls. TL the only place where being a female gets you special privileges.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
In his defense, their has been an established trend of females who aren't top players being brought onto pro teams. Flo is sadly the exception and not the rule. No need to be passive aggressive; Bobster wasn't passing judgement on this decision, rather just looking for pertinent information so he could establish his opinion.
She's been to multiple big name tournaments, I'm certain I've seen her at MLG at least once and probably many times. She also got silver in ZOWIE DIVINIA, losing to ST_Aphrodite who is on a Korean pro team.
This is relatively old news, since she decked her stream out with quantic logos and icons a while ago, but congratulations either way. I don't know why they waited so long for the announcement, doesn't matter I guess. Good luck to Flo and Quantic!
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
Quantic has really become a very interesting team. Best of luck to them and to Flo. She seems to be one of the best female players and if she puts in the effort and 100% of her focus on Starcraft she can probably reach a really high level.
wow, unexpected! But a big congrats to flo =D this is a huge step up . . .to be on a freaking team with sase and naniwa is once in a lifetime opportunity. Gogo flo!
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
this is kind of how i feel. i mean sure she does well in female tournaments, and that's good for her, but is she helping QxG at all? not really, seems like another publicity stunt as the guy above me said.
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
sc2earnings doesn't take regionals into account. She's from the SoCal area and has been consistent in the regional tournaments here.
Yes, she can kick guys' ass in "real" tournaments too.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
I think you're being a bit too defensive. It's a pretty reasonable question, and it's not like it's hard to find out. I'm curious about it as well. Every other pro is gm level so it's not really asked.
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
The same comment can be made whenever a team picks up a foreigner over many more skilled Koreans without teams (this applies to most foreign teams' lower half of their roster).
She is picked due to her SC skillz relative to the scene in which she primarily competes (the female scene). In addition she may be good PR and give exposure to the team (just like foreigners often are good PR compared to Koreans as they speak English well and show a lot of personality).
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
No, she can actually play at a competitive level from what I've seen. She isn't some random diamond player.
Certainly isn't going to win an MLG anytime soon most likely, but she is from what I've seen the top foreign female, so I think its cool she's getting some support =].
Flo fighting!
yeah, i dont think she is on the level of most pro gamers, even destiny, but she is probably at or near the GM level and could kick some serious ass in smaller competitions. But with the training quantic provides, who knows how far she will go ?
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
Maybe you wouldn't be a mental child either!
i dont agree with how he phrased it at all but to call him a mental child is a bit out of bounds tbh too. Teams have a choice to sign whoever they choose to for whatever reasons. But if we are talking for skills sakes and not PR or marketability then he does have a point although whietracares phrased it horribly wrong that woman players in order to make a pro team do not have to be able to be a top 50 GM on say the easiest of the big 3 servers which we could argue is NA.
Cool news. Hmm, Quantic's line up is a bit odd. There's a bunch of lower-tier pros like Destiny, Flo, Agh, etc., and then you have Sase who is pretty good, and Naniwa, who is easily one of the top foreign superstars. It reminds me of EG after getting Idra and before they picked up Puma and Huk.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
Works the same for those recent pick-ups by Korean teams. It's not necessarily for the skills That being said...
If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
No, it is not necessarily true. Obviously, you'd need to be semi-good at the game, like mid-high Masters at least. Though I'd imagine your chances would be better if you were female to say the least because they'd want you more for you marketability/public relations reasons than for subpar pro-level skill. Let's face it guys, if she was male, I'm 99% sure QxG wouldn't have signed her. But having a female on your team means good PR, which isn't a bad thing for the business side of things, and the business side of things is why these teams exist.
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
No, she can actually play at a competitive level from what I've seen. She isn't some random diamond player.
thats true, but shes not even remotely close to being on par with the rest of the team
another joke of a recruitment, no offense to flo. teams who recruit simply for publicity are sell outs
I think it is unfair to say this. Proteams function off publicity and exposure. Do you think they would have picked up Naniwa if no one would ever see him play? The whole point of picking up players is to have them represent their teams. I can understand criticizing teams for picking up female players that don't have much skill but I think it would be really cool for Quantic if they helped Flo become the first strong female gamer that can compete with the male gamers. By the looks of it there are many reasons to think that she can make it; she want's to put the time in, she has quite a bit of skill already and she is one of the top female gamers right now. If it is doubtful that she will be able to improve it makes sense to disapprove of the pickup, I feel that way about Eve, but I can't see any reason to think she has no potential.
but yeah, publicity is the whole point of having a team, otherwise they wouldn't attract sponsors.
On December 22 2011 09:59 AnonymousXV wrote: what a joke player to recruit
How the hell is she a joke player? I mean maybe if your dad peed into your mom and you were born that way you might think this, and if so, condolences I don't want to hurt the feelings of someone with downs syndrome. But this is a retarded comment, you have to agree with me there.
On December 22 2011 10:08 Capped wrote: At first i was sceptical at all these teams picking up girls, PR etc.
Now all the teams have them im thinking female tournaments will get started up and we will have some competition going through them all, im hyped.
Congratz to flo!
you cannot just have "female tournaments" though the appeal to them maybe fun the first or second time but I dunno any main stream fan of Sc2 who will want to watch that if their level of play isnt even above some GM streamers. If they get to that point and are that good if not better then there is no reason for them to just not compete in a normal non gender bias tournament
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
The mocking tone of your post legitimizes it. Also, had you done your research, you would have known that Flo is quite good at sc2; she's done well in the MLG open bracket more than once. True, like Destiny and numerous other players, Flo wasn't recruited to an A class team for her raw skill but because of her marketability in combo with that. That doesn't mean she's bad at sc, however.
Congratulations. Quantic has been really working on getting it's players. Nani, Destiny, Sase and now one of the best female players. Liking the additions, any chance we can get some VOD's of her gameplay? All I have seen are her vs Jinro and White-ra, not exactly the best to see.
Flo you should just ask White-ra for some best of 5 streamed games. He's always practicing and always seems to be willing to be nice/ entertain the community. I know I would love to see it.
edit: nm just clicked her stream and saw he was on...
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
The mocking tone of your post legitimizes it. Also, had you done your research, you would have known that Flo is quite good at sc2; she's done well in the MLG open bracket more than once. True, like Destiny and numerous other players, Flo wasn't recruited to an A class team for her raw skill but because of her marketability in combo with that. That doesn't mean she's bad at sc, however.
Shes never done well in the open bracket. Results at MLG are ; Anaheim Losers round 3. Raleigh Losers round 3. Orlando Losers round 4(Possibly? TL says flo but also says protoss so not sure if its a mistake) Providence Losers round 3.
Seriously guys, whether she is joining regular or female only tournaments this really helps the scene.
Consider this, the more female tournaments appear, the higher the prizes will get for more tournaments if there is enough publicity. Thus the skill levels of female players will go up and possibly the will for more female players to join the scene.
I'm sure there will eventually be female players that will be near the middle to upper tier male players, but they really need the support at the moment.
On December 22 2011 09:59 AnonymousXV wrote: what a joke player to recruit
This is a bizarre and I think, ignorant statement to make. For some reason, people in our scene still have the naivete to think that the only thing of significance when recruiting a player is skill. That's not true, that's never been true. For example, we could compare Ret and Idra; theoretically very similar as far as skill goes, however thanks to Idra's "bad boy" marketing, he's worth many times more.
Flo's gender is a marketable trait. For whatever reason, the community has decided gender, unlike BM, hilarity or in general handsomeness, should not be marketable. Spoiler alert: It still is.
I think it's awesome that there are females willing to put in the work and effort. However it seems a bit odd to me that a team like Quantic would pick up a player who doesn't have the best results while there are obvious other (male) talents who are unarguably more skilled. I'm all about empowering women, however this seems like a PR move rather than one to actually improve the overall skill of the team. If she goes to Korea there's no doubt she will get a lot better. Hopefully we see her do very well in upcoming tournaments. Good luck to her!
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
Prize money shouldn't be used as a qualifier for skill. If Slasher and I had a show match hosted by MLG for $5,000,000 it would make us the highest earning players on the planet - and still 2 bronze league dummies. Context, is important.
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
The mocking tone of your post legitimizes it. Also, had you done your research, you would have known that Flo is quite good at sc2; she's done well in the MLG open bracket more than once. True, like Destiny and numerous other players, Flo wasn't recruited to an A class team for her raw skill but because of her marketability in combo with that. That doesn't mean she's bad at sc, however.
Shes never done well in the open bracket. Results at MLG are ; Anaheim Losers round 3. Raleigh Losers round 3. Orlando Losers round 4(Possibly? TL says flo but also says protoss so not sure if its a mistake) Providence Losers round 3.
She's always been able to beat several people in the LB though, and frequently gets taken out by bigger names such as State, WhiteRa, Trimaster, and Jinro.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
Is every female pro who gets signed by a team grand master? No. He has reason to ask, given the history of female SC2 players on teams.
Please, be realistic. A lot of teams realize that it's a good publicity stunt, and in some cases (as we have seen in the past) they will pick up less skilled players who are female. You don't ever see players of that skill level get picked up who are male.
Exactly
It's good to see a girl who can finally compete at a high level enter the foreign scene. GL Flo
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
all of her won money ($3000) was for taking 2nd in an all girl 6 player invite tournament, hardly qualifiers her as 'legit'.
I don't really care that teams pick up girls for whatever value they think they bring but let's not pretend she's being picked up because of her starcraft skillz.
The mocking tone of your post legitimizes it. Also, had you done your research, you would have known that Flo is quite good at sc2; she's done well in the MLG open bracket more than once. True, like Destiny and numerous other players, Flo wasn't recruited to an A class team for her raw skill but because of her marketability in combo with that. That doesn't mean she's bad at sc, however.
Shes never done well in the open bracket. Results at MLG are ; Anaheim Losers round 3. Raleigh Losers round 3. Orlando Losers round 4(Possibly? TL says flo but also says protoss so not sure if its a mistake) Providence Losers round 3.
She's always been able to beat several people in the LB though, and frequently gets taken out by bigger names such as State, WhiteRa, Trimaster, and Jinro.
Being put out in round 3 almost always means winning 1 game and losing 2 in the tournament(Nearly everyone gets places in losers round 2 after being put out of winners round 1). Also theres lots of players who are plat/diamond who are playing for fun and lose first round winners and are placed in round 2 losers so beating any of them is hardly an achievement.
Edit: Id like to also mention that im for this signing for QxG but I was just pointing out to the person who said that flo had made a few good runs through MLG that, that wasn't true.
On December 22 2011 10:46 ChrysaliS_ wrote: This is pathetic and bad for E-sports.
No it's not, and no it's not.
This is not a team picking up a Gold league player because she's female. This is a top competitive team picking up THE BEST (arguably) female player. She has been around the scene for ages as well.
This is good for eSports. I can't possibly see how it would be bad.
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
Prize money shouldn't be used as a qualifier for skill. If Slasher and I had a show match hosted by MLG for $5,000,000 it would make us the highest earning players on the planet - and still 2 bronze league dummies. Context, is important.
On December 22 2011 09:37 Primadog wrote: Flo is #131 globally in StarCraft 2 prize earning according SC2earnings, so so ya, she's legit.
Prize money shouldn't be used as a qualifier for skill. If Slasher and I had a show match hosted by MLG for $5,000,000 it would make us the highest earning players on the planet - and still 2 bronze league dummies. Context, is important.
Take away invitationals and it is a pretty darn good one. Atleast it should be.
I haven't seen her play that much, so I'm terribly sorry if I'm wrong.
But when she says she doesnt want to be recruited just cause she's a girl, its weird. I doubt she is infact the best choice for Quantic. Isn't it really obvious that the fact she's a girl plays a huge role in why Quantic chose to sign her? I am not saying that looking at gender when recruiting is wrong, I just find it silly that anyone would believe her gender was not a big reason.
Just because she's on Quantic, doesn't mean she's getting the same kinda salary as the other players. If she's even getting a salary. Teams don't pay all players equally, so people shouldn't be getting worked up over her being undeserving or whatever.
On December 22 2011 09:32 VirgilSC2 wrote: Congrats to Quantic for signing a female player that can actually have a hope of competing if she puts in the time.
I was really getting sick and tired of "Foreign Team A has signed Diamond Level PrettyGirl B" and acting like they picked said player for her skill rather than her looks.
Furthermore, congratulations on staying away from a sensationalist title like "The amazingly beautiful female gamergurl Flo joins Quantic"
Very impressive and classy by Quantic. Good luck in the future Flo!
I share these sentiments. Only time they mentioned her even being female (aside from gender pronouns) was here:
as she trains to become not just the best female, but the best gamer overall.
A little bit ambitious, but not because she's female. It's just a lot to ask of ANYONE to be the best player on Earth. Still, gotta love the attitude they're putting towards her. They're not signing her as a pretty face, they're signing her as a solid player with a lot of potential. If it happens to advance the female gaming scene, so be it. I know I'm going to be watching her career with some amount of eagerness.
That said, I rather hope they don't assign Naniwa as her practice partner any time soon. That would take a toll on ANYONE, and I'd hate to see our scowling Swedish friend knock an up-and-coming player out of the game entirely.
On December 22 2011 11:18 blabber wrote: cool news. but you are wrong if you think this didn't happen mainly because she is a girl (yes, she's decent at sc2 too)
There are female-only SC2 tournaments with $10,000 in prizes such as the Zowie Female Invitational in China, so it makes sense for teams to pick up male and female players.
Good business move by Quantic. Obviously, they are mainly picking up Flo because she is a girl. But out of all the girls, she seems to have the most potential to compete with high-level male gamers. Personally, I really hope that she makes it since she would be a good example for any aspiring girl gamers.
On December 22 2011 11:31 AZKziek wrote: Yay for all the people being better than all the females that have been picked up in teams! Awesome stuff to see the truly deserving missing out!
Yay for all the people with terrible attitudes like this being left out of teams! Oh wait, you have a team name on yours so I guess being a dick is ok but being female isn't?
Love the entitlement from people like this who look at the player by their gender and blatantly ignore the rest.
On December 22 2011 11:31 AZKziek wrote: Yay for all the people being better than all the females that have been picked up in teams! Awesome stuff to see the truly deserving missing out!
Yay for all the people with terrible attitudes like this being left out of teams! Oh wait, you have a team name on yours so I guess being a dick is ok but being female isn't?
Love the entitlement from people like this who look at the player by their gender and blatantly ignore the rest.
It seems that nearly all the girls who participated at the Divina tournament are getting picked up by teams. I wonder how many of them will actually suceed at the higher level. Regardless, HUGE props to Zowie for their tournament, since all of these girls are getting golden opportunities to get really good and thus attract more girl gamers.
I must commend Quantic for their signing of players such as Sase, Destiny, and Naniwa. Having seen them acquire these three top tier players I have full confidence in their signing of Flo. I havnt heard of her before but based on their track record im sure she's more then good enough to compete :D glhf Flo :D
A lot of pro business men in this thread lol. Teams are in business, and having females who participate in female tournaments is good for business. So thus, this is not a publicity stunt.
In addition, do people honestly think she is worse than every other male player on every other team? Somehow I doubt that.
It's a joke, no offense... Having girl gamers is cool and all, but I see all these girls only tournaments and other nonsense.. You wanna be taken seriously, don't let your gender make or break you, and play at the skill level with the best. Because there are much better players, then some of the girl SC2 "pros"
On December 22 2011 11:31 AZKziek wrote: Yay for all the people being better than all the females that have been picked up in teams! Awesome stuff to see the truly deserving missing out!
Well looks like someone is a bit sore about something. From what iv heard she's borderline GM on NA and EU meaning she really rather good bro so please try not to sound so ignorant in the future. Look at all these pros on teams that aren't GM but yes she practically is so whats your point man? Judging from her credentials shes extreamly good and will only get better with the amazing practice Quantic can offer her so please step off man you only sound ignorant when you make statements like this.
On December 22 2011 11:31 AZKziek wrote: Yay for all the people being better than all the females that have been picked up in teams! Awesome stuff to see the truly deserving missing out!
Why don't you go get Gus to pay back what he owes first before you rag on another player?
On December 22 2011 11:31 AZKziek wrote: Yay for all the people being better than all the females that have been picked up in teams! Awesome stuff to see the truly deserving missing out!
Yay for all the people with terrible attitudes like this being left out of teams! Oh wait, you have a team name on yours so I guess being a dick is ok but being female isn't?
Love the entitlement from people like this who look at the player by their gender and blatantly ignore the rest.
Well, if we are not looking at gender then we are looking at merits, and his point is that there are other people out there that are more qualified than she is. Your argument back was to stop looking at gender and to look at other factors which is what he was trying to say. Sure he came off as a dick, but I am not sure if you understood him.... Edit: And the dude is wrong btw too, she has had some top finishes, I just forgot the tourneys. ^_^
Either way, congrats to Flo and Quantic. Probably going to go watch that stream now ^_____________^
On December 22 2011 11:31 AZKziek wrote: Yay for all the people being better than all the females that have been picked up in teams! Awesome stuff to see the truly deserving missing out!
It's a business and signing one of the top tier females will get more attention than signing some random up and comer. Not to mention the female scene should be pretty competetive soon since several teams now have pro females on their teams.
Do people think that whenever a team gets a player, they get the best available player out there? Maybe one might recruit the second best player? Or even a player who is popular and has gotten recent attention, but isn't anywhere near the best non-affiliated player. Teams in other sports frequently take less skilled players they believe have potential, because it's much cheaper to sign someone who doesn't yet have high value, then monetize them while they're still on the original contract. Yet it's only ever women (not girls, you don't call male progamers "boys") that get people saying "omg, totally unskilled."
Yeah, the decision to sign her might have been influenced by gender. Plenty of better players are passed over for lesser players for various reasons. The negativity female gamers get is really a huge turnoff from progaming.
Combine the honest talk people have about gender and opportunity in SC2 with some of the outright sexism from the community (see the supercreepiness in Flo's channel right now), and it's a barrier, even if you don't think it is, to women getting into gaming. And at the risk of falling into a cliche, that's hurting esports a lot more than women getting more opportunities than men. It certainly makes me want to watch it less, and I can't imagine trying to introduce another girl to watching SC2, when she could log onto the stream of a female gamer just signed to a top tier team and see her chat flooded with requests for feet shots.
Congrats to Flo! Quantic is quickly becoming a really well known an solid team. Flo has shown she could compete with male gamers in the MLG open brackets, usually beating some good players, so I don't know why people are saying that she is only on the team because she is female. Her results are probably close to some of the lesser known Quantic players and being female is just an added benefit because it makes her stand out.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
It's an ok question to ask. Historically females have been less skilled than males and whenever one showed up and make some kind of splash they usually weren't very good compared to the males. If she is indeed GM along with everyone else then I could give a fuck what gender, race, etc she is. Also usually when a guy is signed to a team they are well known on the ladder alrdy.
While it's hard to ignore that her gender plays a factor, I think you guys are missing the point. IMO, there's little that could prevent a female competing/winning in a tournament with other men, so I understand people feel like anyone on a team should be picked purely on the basis of skill - but we do need to generate (cultural) interest, as in, get more women playing to get good at the game. This won't happen right away... there's a process, and having role models for other women who want to play is one of those steps.
You also have to see the bigger picture: it's a good thing to get more people to accept SC2, just generally, male or female. SC2 is still very much a niche when compared to other sports, and anything that can help integrate the sport into what is considered more "mainstream" will help, not hurt. Take Day9's afterhours gaming for example - it's to demonstrate that regular people who have jobs/lives are educated/successful can also partake and do enjoy gaming as a hobby. Likewise, getting more female gamers tells people hey, even your girlfriends enjoy gaming, it's cool if you want to play SC2 or videogames or whatever as a past time. This probably isn't the motivation on part of Quantic, but I don't care what motivates Quantic - the indirect result is a good thing.
And if nothing else, just try to be decent human being and be happy for someone else.
On December 22 2011 12:36 flanksteak wrote: While it's hard to ignore that her gender plays a factor, I think you guys are missing the point. IMO, there's little that could prevent a female competing/winning in a tournament with other men, so I understand people feel like anyone on a team should be picked purely on the basis of skill - but we do need to generate (cultural) interest, as in, get more women playing to get good at the game. This won't happen right away... there's a process, and having role models for other women who want to play is one of those steps.
You also have to see the bigger picture: it's a good thing to get more people to accept SC2, just generally, male or female. SC2 is still very much a niche when compared to other sports, and anything that can help integrate the sport into what is considered more "mainstream" will help, not hurt. Take Day9's afterhours gaming for example - it's to demonstrate that regular people who have jobs/lives are educated/successful can also partake and do enjoy gaming as a hobby. Likewise, getting more female gamers tells people hey, even your girlfriends enjoy gaming, it's cool if you want to play SC2 or videogames or whatever as a past time. This probably isn't the motivation on part of Quantic, but I don't care what motivates Quantic - the indirect result is a good thing.
And if nothing else, just try to be decent human being and be happy for someone else.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
Is every female pro who gets signed by a team grand master? No. He has reason to ask, given the history of female SC2 players on teams.
Please, be realistic. A lot of teams realize that it's a good publicity stunt, and in some cases (as we have seen in the past) they will pick up less skilled players who are female. You don't ever see players of that skill level get picked up who are male.
Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
A TEAM is a business. Making money = having a successful team. More money you can buy better talent. The fact that people will bash her for being a female and getting picked up by a team is generating publicity for the team. Ergo by you wantiong to hate on her and doing so publicly all you are doing is making it a hot topic to talk about which brings more press for Quantic gaming which means evidently more money in the end. There is NO doubt in my that the owner of this team clearly knows he could probably field a wide variety of talent far superior at the moment to whoever Flo is. But signing a gosu player that no one knows anything about and isn't marketable or won't generate controversy then you are basically cutting off a limb for your business.
The best example in my mind when it comes to marketability is idra. Regardless if you hate him, you still love to hate him. You love to watch him fail if it were to happen or you love to watch him succeed. The end result is you bring attention to EG. In the same manner if Flo fails miserably or succeeds either way Quantic benefits. If Flo fails all you flamers and haters (which in some way I maybe one too more so jealousy) will want to rabble on about it. Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
Was a good business move, but looking at it from the side of players it kind of sucks. No offense to Flo, there are better player prospects out there right now, and it sucks to see them getting passed up.
But as some posters have mentioned, it's a business, and a move like this attracts attention. I wish the Team and her the best.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
no because we don't see male gamers get signed because of their looks as a main reason. Not saying that is what happened here, I have no idea how good or bad flo is, but we have seen females get signed to teams in the past not because of skill, so I think it will always be a legitimate question as long as that happens. In this case, from what others have said, it appears she is actually competitive so hurray, he gets his answer and people who try and hate on her for being a pro female with no skill will be shut up. A good thing in my opinion.
From a female gamer's perspective, I disagree that recruiting a female not based solely on skill hurts the female gaming scene.
For instance, so many people talk crap about the WNBA because it's so bad compared to the NBA. I've heard people say a high school team could beat a WNBA team. It's probably true because we're just built differently. That's why I love gaming so much because there's no gender bias. My gameplay is based on the time and effort I put into it, not what I was physically born with. So when a girl gets recruited, gender should be completely omitted.
Eventually there'll be a female who will take international tournaments and inspire a new era of female gaming. I don't think Aphrodite or Flo will be the ones. Like many have already stated, Destiny and Flo were picked up because of the publicity they generate. From a business standpoint, that makes complete sense. However, if they can't produce satisfactory results for the gaming community, that's all they'll be - just publicity. I definitely see potential in Destiny as he's made his way into Korea, but Flo has a long and tough journey ahead. Good luck!
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
However, the part quoted above kind of annoys me. The whole "any publicity is good publicity mentality." speaking from a sponsor standpoint (which I am not this is pure speculation), good publicity would be better then bad. Idra winning a tournament and EG computer sponsor X getting a lot of traffic and attention is better I would think than them getting attention because Idra told someone to go fuck themselves.
Also, there is such a thing as integrity so a team making a decision with the viewpoint you stated above "even if she fails we get attention" lacks in this area. I won't just be talking about how FLO was a failure in x, y, or z tournament. I will be talking about how bad the decision to pick her up was and how it reflects poorly on those who made it (this is just an example, I don't know who she is let alone if she will find any success).
Nice to see female gamers stepping it up, this is a good way to go about things, not like eSahara who said they were looking specifically for a female player and picked up one from low masters and then wrote "acquires female gamer" or something along those lines in the thread title, bumping the players actual name out of the sidebar.
congratz ~ why are ppl so mad? theres plenty of male progamers that havent shown any tourney results either but no one bashes them, and it takes a lot of guts to do pro gaming and follow your passion.
Yeah, she probably wouldn't have been picked up by Quantic if she wasn't female, just like Destiny wouldn't have been picked up if his stream wasn't popular, but at least Flo has _some_ chance of doing well in a major tournament. She's more like Startale Aphrodite than like Slayers Eve, who'll never participate in GSL or even GSTL.
Very cool! Happy for her. I remember the first time I heard about here was in a CSN interview and from then I thought she was the best female with the most potential for success in the Sc2 scene.
So uhh, I scanned through the posts. What league is she? And what's this about her... feet?
(IMO, putting a mediocre level female gamer on a team is actually hurting esports)
User was temp banned for this post.
EDIT: I didn't mean to be offensive. I mean mediocre female players (not saying Flo is one of them, as I know nothing about her) being added to pro teams for the sake of publicity is bad.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
yes lol do u know anything about BW? Do you know how insanely hard idra worked at practicing? You gotta remember idra unlike koreans didnt start playing BW in korea. He became good in NA playing vs koreans but wasnt in a korean house mentality. To get as good as he did in BW outside of korea to begin with where PRO GAMING was peaking and a legit thing to go after in life then absolutely YES. With his insane ability to practice u assume he plays in korea from beginning he would absolutely have gotten picked up by a korean team. So pretty sure u probably arent old enough to remember much about BW or u would understand this
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind.
thank you for ur support but just remember also how much better he probably wouldve been in BW if he was a korean born in korea where playing video games professionally is a legit career u can chase after. When he went to korea if you said u were going to be a pro gamer in NA you prob wouldve gotten laughed at to ur face
It's too bad that Quantic is sort of dividing their roster into a popularity section (Destiny & Flo) and a winner's section (Sase & NaNiwa), but I guess it's understandable.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
yes lol do u know anything about BW? Do you know how insanely hard idra worked at practicing? You gotta remember idra unlike koreans didnt start playing BW in korea. He became good in NA playing vs koreans but wasnt in a korean house mentality. To get as good as he did in BW outside of korea to begin with where PRO GAMING was peaking and a legit thing to go after in life then absolutely YES. With his insane ability to practice u assume he plays in korea from beginning he would absolutely have gotten picked up by a korean team. So pretty sure u probably arent old enough to remember much about BW or u would understand this
If Idra were a Korean, he would have to win Courage to get picked by a Korean team. So he did get the benefit of favoritism.
I watched the Divina tournament and have been watching Aphrodite's stream lately, and I have to say that it is really cool to see much more gender parity in video games.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind.
'twas an honest question, I wasn't there when he went over. First series I recall seeing is him losing 1-2 to Trap in the Gom Classic, and then he was part of that list of players that included Tossgirl and the old legends (Boxer, Yellow, Reach, etc.) whom we always looked for in the offline prelims but kept losing in the first round.
Anyway, why do you believe there's "no question" that he was better than those players? His TLPD entry gives him an 8-20 record, Flying is 85-83 (over 50%), hyvaa is 156-151 (over 50%) and Juni is 99-120. And they've played some high calibre players too.
Hell, Pokju was 38-38.
Unfortunately, I never really followed the players who didn't have televised matches (because, well, they didn't have televised matches) so I really don't have any way to measure his performance on a fair metric. Given that you are apparently more knowledgeable than I, can you explain to me where your certainty comes from?
The only logical reason Quantic would sign her is just to get more publicity by the community for signing a female player and for no other reason.
I see a lot of people saying things like 'She is actually a competitive player and has the capacity of doing well given practice'. However, I argue that if Quantic was looking for someone that could produce results in tournament and who wasn't just another publicity stunt to get their brand more recognition they need to look no further than the Grandmaster league of almost any server to find a 'gem in the ruff' so to speak (example of this would be Trimaster who was relevantly unknown and picked up by Complexity)
In Grandmaster league there ARE 100% players who are twice if not 3 times better than Flo in Grandmaster of almost every server who may be in a small team which provides no financial backing or who may not even be in a team at all who would be more than happy to have a large team backing them and top class practice partners.
The ONLY reason she in getting into a big team such as Quantic is because she is in-fact a female player who is semi-decent at starcraft 2. Even if she is the best FEMALE player available it does not mean that she is the BEST player without a team Quantic could have picked up to play competitively in tournaments. She is merely a publicity stunt to get more brand recognition and nothing more.
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
I agree with you but how much value does a female only tournament hold up after the novelty runs out of it? I am being realistic here that with all gender tournaments I.E. MLG a female tournament just feels like a novelty that will run out rather fast in ESports, Especially since ESports relatively is a small sport as it is. Also seeing as how gender yields no difference in performance or genetics then the novelty will surely run out fast. This isn't like the NBA and WNBA where woman clearly for genetic reasons cannot compete with males on a pro level. Now if a woman were to win MLG that would be an incredible thing. But this certainly to some degree is a "stunt" in the sense its a business move. If we are talking strictly on talent then this is clearly absolutely a stunt move. If you factor into marketability and maybe the few female only tournaments that may arise in the beginning the coverage it will provide for quantic then sure it'll be okay. But no way female only tournaments can on a consistent basis season in and out pull in sponsorships or compete with bigger tournaments such as MLG. I am not being mean here either I think its great for woman to get involved in this as it just brings more attention. But to some degree to say its not a stunt from a business standpoint is kind of silly. Another super star player regardless male or female would be a better move here then if we are saying it isnt a stunt as putting a purely better talented player to make it on stage at MLG event or other tournament would yield a much better gain. Female only tournaments in a non gender advantage sport will absolutely fizzle out there is little to no appeal to watching that from my perspective from how the community has reacted then it would be to watch Naniwa and Nestea play. Or MC and idra go at it and so on.
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
Does anybody or team care about female tournaments? That's not where the money and glory is, so your argument is void. That being said, teams are a business and need to keep afloat. If it's a good marketing opportunity, then everyone wins. Not sure why people are so hung up on marketing gimmicks. Every business needs them. At least Flo looks like a nice, decent girl who doesn't come across as playing the sex card to get where she wants.
The amount of recognition you get by supporting and nurturing a relatively unknown player. (Trimaster is one excellent example) Who is no doubt better than Flo is far more worth while than Supporting a female player like Flo who will never be able to compete in open events which you cannot argue more people watch.
It seems like she's dedicated to the game (and not bad either), so I think if she trains hard with the likes of nani, sase, destiny, etc. it's possible that she can become a force to be reckoned with in ANY tournament.
Flo was dominating the female SC2 scene for a while, only recently she got a 2nd place which was an upset. Her rate of improvement is very good, she works very hard. She competes regularly in MLG etc, along other progamers and proceeds at least a few rounds deep. Don't be surprised if next year she pulls an upset or two against a renown progamer. Congrats Flo and Quantic.
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
I agree with you but how much value does a female only tournament hold up after the novelty runs out of it? I am being realistic here that with all gender tournaments I.E. MLG a female tournament just feels like a novelty that will run out rather fast in ESports, Especially since ESports relatively is a small sport as it is. Also seeing as how gender yields no difference in performance or genetics then the novelty will surely run out fast. This isn't like the NBA and WNBA where woman clearly for genetic reasons cannot compete with males on a pro level. Now if a woman were to win MLG that would be an incredible thing. But this certainly to some degree is a "stunt" in the sense its a business move. If we are talking strictly on talent then this is clearly absolutely a stunt move. If you factor into marketability and maybe the few female only tournaments that may arise in the beginning the coverage it will provide for quantic then sure it'll be okay. But no way female only tournaments can on a consistent basis season in and out pull in sponsorships or compete with bigger tournaments such as MLG. I am not being mean here either I think its great for woman to get involved in this as it just brings more attention. But to some degree to say its not a stunt from a business standpoint is kind of silly. Another super star player regardless male or female would be a better move here then if we are saying it isnt a stunt as putting a purely better talented player to make it on stage at MLG event or other tournament would yield a much better gain. Female only tournaments in a non gender advantage sport will absolutely fizzle out there is little to no appeal to watching that from my perspective from how the community has reacted then it would be to watch Naniwa and Nestea play. Or MC and idra go at it and so on.
Your entire point is moot since there are still female only events. It doesn't matter whether you like them or not, they exist. End of story.
Because they exist, Quantic can enter their female roster into it. With no females on their roster, they cannot participate. The rest of your post about competing with MLG blah blah is completely off track, since that is not the prerequisite for success.
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
Does anybody or team care about female tournaments? That's not where the money and glory is, so your argument is void. That being said, teams are a business and need to keep afloat. If it's a good marketing opportunity, then everyone wins. Not sure why people are so hung up on marketing gimmicks. Every business needs them. At least Flo looks like a nice, decent girl who doesn't come across as playing the sex card to get where she wants.
Apparently they do, since they just wrapped one up with a pretty decent prize pool. Just because you don't like / don't care about them doesn't invalidate their existence. As long as their are events, there is room for her on the Quantic roster.
People shouldn't hate on the teams or the players picking the females up, hate on the tournaments that allows bad players to be "progamer" and travel around the world playing for money Code B/Code A players who practice 10-12 hours a day never will see a glims off, just because of their gender.
In the end it's just gonna be like it was/is in Counter-Strike 1.6, girls will only play with girls in female only tournaments because there they have a chance not being completely destroyed, there they can have the 15 min of fame and there they don't need to put in the same time like males have to do but still earn some money. I wouldn't want this tho, I would love to see girls compete with guys but the more girls only cups, tournaments and league that will pop up the more the female players will "isolate" themselfs from the males and the skill gap will be huge.
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
User was banned for this post.
She's one of the few female players who's actually good at the game and isn't just famous due to being female.
Famous? I had no idea who she was until now, and I do browse quite a lot and have for quite some time.
It's silly the way there is a distinction between male and female tournaments. eSports is one of the few actual sports where females have same possibility to be as successful as males. I loathe the guys and girls who organize female only tournaments. That's like making black only tournaments. I guess there are korean only tournaments, but that's a nationality.
Anyway, it's stupid. But now, there are in fact female only tournaments so I consider it to be a good move by quantic if flo is indeed performing highly in female only tourneys. However, it is stupid, it's not like the rest of the tournaments are male only.
GL to quantic anyway, I hope she will be able to perform on a _real_ level soon, otherwise you've lost one supporter!
Isn't the point of a team to get publicity for their sponsors? I mean, EG didn't sign IdrA so they can't support some lofty noble goal of "esports." They signed him because he's a great player that gets people to watch his games, meaning more attention for EG, meaning more attention for their sponsors.
Quantic signed Flo because she's a good player who will get people to watch her games, meaning more attention for Quantic, meaning more attention for their sponsors.
Why is one a stunt and the other not a stunt?
Female only tournaments aren't causing isolation at all. Neither Flo nor Aphrodite would have been picked up by a team without a female only tournament, and now that they are on big teams, they have more opportunities to get better and go to big mixed gender tournaments. It also gives female players role models to say "wow, I can totally do that to," like IdrA playing in Korea gave foreigners a "wow, we can make it in Starcraft" model.
gratz Flo and Quantic Flo has to be one of the best female players out there and from interviews etc ive seen she seems very motivated and nice. Gl to both!
On December 22 2011 16:00 omgryebread wrote: Isn't the point of a team to get publicity for their sponsors? I mean, EG didn't sign IdrA so they can't support some lofty noble goal of "esports." They signed him because he's a great player that gets people to watch his games, meaning more attention for EG, meaning more attention for their sponsors.
Quantic signed Flo because she's a good player who will get people to watch her games, meaning more attention for Quantic, meaning more attention for their sponsors.
Why is one a stunt and the other not a stunt?
Female only tournaments aren't causing isolation at all. Neither Flo nor Aphrodite would have been picked up by a team without a female only tournament, and now that they are on big teams, they have more opportunities to get better and go to big mixed gender tournaments. It also gives female players role models to say "wow, I can totally do that to," like IdrA playing in Korea gave foreigners a "wow, we can make it in Starcraft" model.
The point is, eSports doesn't _need_ female players, it needs good players. (I'm not saying females can't be good). I couldn't care less wether the player is male or female, black or white, tall or short - as long as the games are entertaining and the person isn't a complete ass he or she has got my support. I feel it's a slap in the face with girl only tournaments. Anyway! I'm sorry, I will be quiet now. I'm sure Flo will be able to participate on a super high level, but until then, I'll lay my quantic support on ice.
"Female only tournaments in a non gender advantage sport will absolutely fizzle out there is little to no appeal to watching that"
You said there was no appeal in watching it. That, combined with calling it a "novelty" gives the impression that you don't like them. And again, I say that it isn't a stunt because those male players cannot enter female tournaments. Thus, your argument about other, better, male gamers is irrelevant.
Please use punctuation, type words out fully, and try a capital letter or two when you type if you want to be taken seriously. Nowhere did I get personal with you, and by the end of your post I can literally see the froth dripping off the screen.
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
I agree with you but how much value does a female only tournament hold up after the novelty runs out of it? I am being realistic here that with all gender tournaments I.E. MLG a female tournament just feels like a novelty that will run out rather fast in ESports, Especially since ESports relatively is a small sport as it is. Also seeing as how gender yields no difference in performance or genetics then the novelty will surely run out fast. This isn't like the NBA and WNBA where woman clearly for genetic reasons cannot compete with males on a pro level. Now if a woman were to win MLG that would be an incredible thing. But this certainly to some degree is a "stunt" in the sense its a business move. If we are talking strictly on talent then this is clearly absolutely a stunt move. If you factor into marketability and maybe the few female only tournaments that may arise in the beginning the coverage it will provide for quantic then sure it'll be okay. But no way female only tournaments can on a consistent basis season in and out pull in sponsorships or compete with bigger tournaments such as MLG. I am not being mean here either I think its great for woman to get involved in this as it just brings more attention. But to some degree to say its not a stunt from a business standpoint is kind of silly. Another super star player regardless male or female would be a better move here then if we are saying it isnt a stunt as putting a purely better talented player to make it on stage at MLG event or other tournament would yield a much better gain. Female only tournaments in a non gender advantage sport will absolutely fizzle out there is little to no appeal to watching that from my perspective from how the community has reacted then it would be to watch Naniwa and Nestea play. Or MC and idra go at it and so on.
Your entire point is moot since there are still female only events. It doesn't matter whether you like them or not, they exist. End of story.
Because they exist, Quantic can enter their female roster into it. With no females on their roster, they cannot participate. The rest of your post about competing with MLG blah blah is completely off track, since that is not the prerequisite for success.
On December 22 2011 15:37 Tabula`Rasa wrote:
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
Does anybody or team care about female tournaments? That's not where the money and glory is, so your argument is void. That being said, teams are a business and need to keep afloat. If it's a good marketing opportunity, then everyone wins. Not sure why people are so hung up on marketing gimmicks. Every business needs them. At least Flo looks like a nice, decent girl who doesn't come across as playing the sex card to get where she wants.
Apparently they do, since they just wrapped one up with a pretty decent prize pool. Just because you don't like / don't care about them doesn't invalidate their existence. As long as their are events, there is room for her on the Quantic roster.
u wanna tell me at one point did i say i didnt like them? i know its hard to read i may say they arent a good idea never did i saw RAWR RAWR RAWR I HATE FEMALE ONLY EVENTS just being realistic and stating u cant argue it isnt a stunt move to pick up her a female player who clearly isnt more talented then some of the best male players out there that arent on teams. So for one u can stop putting words in my mouth and get off ur mighty horse. I havent gotten personal at all on this topic im merely stating what it is.
What's so hard to understand? As long there is a market for female only tournaments (which it evidently is judging by recent prize pools) then there's absolutely no stunt to pick up one of the best female players. It's not rocket science. You must have hated quantic picking up destiny as well then?
Ya. Obviously women's lack of the Y chromosome makes them incapable of playing SC2 successfully, because the Y chromosome is well known to be the RTS and peeing while standing up and spelling things in the snow chromosome. So sorry Flo. Any attempt to train and improve your skill vs a pretty good team roster will flounder on the rocks of genetic cruelty.
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
I agree with you but how much value does a female only tournament hold up after the novelty runs out of it? I am being realistic here that with all gender tournaments I.E. MLG a female tournament just feels like a novelty that will run out rather fast in ESports, Especially since ESports relatively is a small sport as it is. Also seeing as how gender yields no difference in performance or genetics then the novelty will surely run out fast. This isn't like the NBA and WNBA where woman clearly for genetic reasons cannot compete with males on a pro level. Now if a woman were to win MLG that would be an incredible thing. But this certainly to some degree is a "stunt" in the sense its a business move. If we are talking strictly on talent then this is clearly absolutely a stunt move. If you factor into marketability and maybe the few female only tournaments that may arise in the beginning the coverage it will provide for quantic then sure it'll be okay. But no way female only tournaments can on a consistent basis season in and out pull in sponsorships or compete with bigger tournaments such as MLG. I am not being mean here either I think its great for woman to get involved in this as it just brings more attention. But to some degree to say its not a stunt from a business standpoint is kind of silly. Another super star player regardless male or female would be a better move here then if we are saying it isnt a stunt as putting a purely better talented player to make it on stage at MLG event or other tournament would yield a much better gain. Female only tournaments in a non gender advantage sport will absolutely fizzle out there is little to no appeal to watching that from my perspective from how the community has reacted then it would be to watch Naniwa and Nestea play. Or MC and idra go at it and so on.
Your entire point is moot since there are still female only events. It doesn't matter whether you like them or not, they exist. End of story.
Because they exist, Quantic can enter their female roster into it. With no females on their roster, they cannot participate. The rest of your post about competing with MLG blah blah is completely off track, since that is not the prerequisite for success.
On December 22 2011 15:37 Tabula`Rasa wrote:
On December 22 2011 15:27 Manifesto7 wrote: Are any of those players going to be able to represent the team at female-only tournaments? No? Then it isn't a stunt.
Does anybody or team care about female tournaments? That's not where the money and glory is, so your argument is void. That being said, teams are a business and need to keep afloat. If it's a good marketing opportunity, then everyone wins. Not sure why people are so hung up on marketing gimmicks. Every business needs them. At least Flo looks like a nice, decent girl who doesn't come across as playing the sex card to get where she wants.
Apparently they do, since they just wrapped one up with a pretty decent prize pool. Just because you don't like / don't care about them doesn't invalidate their existence. As long as their are events, there is room for her on the Quantic roster.
u wanna tell me at one point did i say i didnt like them? i know its hard to read i may say they arent a good idea never did i saw RAWR RAWR RAWR I HATE FEMALE ONLY EVENTS just being realistic and stating u cant argue it isnt a stunt move to pick up her a female player who clearly isnt more talented then some of the best male players out there that arent on teams. So for one u can stop putting words in my mouth and get off ur mighty horse. I havent gotten personal at all on this topic im merely stating what it is.
What's so hard to understand? As long there is a market for female only tournaments (which it evidently is judging by recent prize pools) then there's absolutely no stunt to pick up one of the best female players. It's not rocket science. You must have hated quantic picking up destiny as well then?
I just want to go on record as saying that yes, I watched the Zowie Divina tournament, as did many others, so there is an audience for female-only tournaments even if it's not as glamorous or prestigious as the major tournies.
Congrats to Flo, looking forward to seeing more of her and hope that being with Quantic can help her improve a lot.
On December 22 2011 16:00 omgryebread wrote: Isn't the point of a team to get publicity for their sponsors? I mean, EG didn't sign IdrA so they can't support some lofty noble goal of "esports." They signed him because he's a great player that gets people to watch his games, meaning more attention for EG, meaning more attention for their sponsors.
Quantic signed Flo because she's a good player who will get people to watch her games, meaning more attention for Quantic, meaning more attention for their sponsors.
Why is one a stunt and the other not a stunt?
Female only tournaments aren't causing isolation at all. Neither Flo nor Aphrodite would have been picked up by a team without a female only tournament, and now that they are on big teams, they have more opportunities to get better and go to big mixed gender tournaments. It also gives female players role models to say "wow, I can totally do that to," like IdrA playing in Korea gave foreigners a "wow, we can make it in Starcraft" model.
The point is, eSports doesn't _need_ female players, it needs good players. (I'm not saying females can't be good). I couldn't care less wether the player is male or female, black or white, tall or short - as long as the games are entertaining and the person isn't a complete ass he or she has got my support. I feel it's a slap in the face with girl only tournaments. Anyway! I'm sorry, I will be quiet now. I'm sure Flo will be able to participate on a super high level, but until then, I'll lay my quantic support on ice.
Let's assume that there is no biological difference in Starcraft 2 ability between the sexes. In theory, esports should have perfect gender parity, within the margin of error of course. You cannot say that women are equally capable and that there are no barriers to women (Yes, lack of motivation to be a progamer on the part of women is a barrier, because that motivation is discouraged in a number of ways.)
Imagine if you placed some arbitrary restriction on Starcraft 2 players, for example no one with the family name Lim could be a pro. Esports would certainly be hurt, since you'd lose BoxeR and NesTea. There's an easy fix to that, remove the restriction on the name.
There is an arbitrary restriction on sex in Starcraft 2. It's not an explicit restriction, it's one enforced by sexism, traditional gender roles (often from outside the esports community), and anti-feminism kneejerk (I'd argue that a female player would have to do more to prove herself to get community acceptance than a male gamer would.) Because it's not an explicit restriction, it's much harder to get over, and it will require encouraging female gamers even if that's unfair to male gamers. Which it's not, since there is no actual limit to the number of progamers. If Quantic wants a really awesome GM player out there, their pickup of Flo did not prevent that. Eventually, hopefully, we'll have gender parity, and teams won't need to favor female players, and their won't need to be female-only tournaments.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "eSports" when you say it doesn't need female players. Esports is made up of the various organizations and players that participate. I normally wouldn't bother watching Losira crush some random player in an MLG, but I did because I wanted to see the first female on the main stage at an MLG. That certainly benefited MLG and Check6, so I'm not sure how that didn't help eSports.
Really don't understand all the controversy here. If she was some gold player I could see it, but everything in her track record indicates that she is around the same level as destiny, and nobody complained when he was picked up. As others have said, even if small, there are female only tournaments, so picking up the best non-korean female gamer is a good idea.
Haters going to hate. She may not be the best player destroying GMs left and right, but this is still good for starcraft. Someone might have mentioned this already, but players like Idra, nony, etc. were picked up by BW teams even though there were more skilled koreans; the act of bringing foreigners certainly didn't hurt esports at all.
On December 22 2011 16:16 Manifesto7 wrote: "Female only tournaments in a non gender advantage sport will absolutely fizzle out there is little to no appeal to watching that"
You said there was no appeal in watching it. That, combined with calling it a "novelty" gives the impression that you don't like them. And again, I say that it isn't a stunt because those male players cannot enter female tournaments. Thus, your argument about other, better, male gamers is irrelevant.
Please use punctuation, type words out fully, and try a capital letter or two when you type if you want to be taken seriously. Nowhere did I get personal with you, and by the end of your post I can literally see the froth dripping off the screen.
what? lol in no way am i even remotely angry at all so dunno where this "froth dripping off the screen" is coming from unless you just assume anyone who types without using punctuation must be ready to feast on the nerds on the internet. All good I'll stop with this post since clearly my opinion has offended you to the point where your posts go from your statements and opinions as in a normal argument to assuming to being offended by how i type and that i want to eat your brains or something from all this furious typing. Rawrrrr look how angry i am from all this forum posting rawrrrr. Night
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
Not to take anything away from Flo, she probably is a good SC2 player since she got picked up by a pro team.
But since there are so few female pro gamers it isn't always obvious that they are high GM players.
It's therefore interesting to know what her skill level is on the ladder so that one can compare her ladder rank with our own ladder rank. So when she plays some "famous" player and perhaps beat them you could go "oh, I can beat player X as well. My ladder rank is about the same as Flo".
On December 22 2011 16:16 Manifesto7 wrote: "Female only tournaments in a non gender advantage sport will absolutely fizzle out there is little to no appeal to watching that"
You said there was no appeal in watching it. That, combined with calling it a "novelty" gives the impression that you don't like them. And again, I say that it isn't a stunt because those male players cannot enter female tournaments. Thus, your argument about other, better, male gamers is irrelevant.
Please use punctuation, type words out fully, and try a capital letter or two when you type if you want to be taken seriously. Nowhere did I get personal with you, and by the end of your post I can literally see the froth dripping off the screen.
Completely off topic here but I feel like you won your discussion with whomever it may be.
That being said congratulations to Flo, If i recall she is a pretty good player. Perhaps I am wrong so don't quote me on that but from what I have heard and seen she is pretty good.
Meh. Everyone knows she'll never be a true contender at any event that allows males, or even any event that included eve/aphrodite/jongmi, but teams hiring players for more than just their skill is a pretty good thing for ESPORTS in my eyes.
Instead of temp bans, can you guys actually ban the kids whining about them signing a girl to the team? I mean seriously what is wrong with this community?
"Oh noes, a female player I've probably never heard of joined a team that I probably don't care about! I am getting so angry that I must make stupid posts calling the team a joke and questioning the skill level of the player!"
Yes, they recruited her partly because she's a girl. Yes, there are probably many players better than she is that Quantic isn't picking up. No, this will not negatively impact your life in any way, nor could it possibly be bad for ESPORTS. It boggles my mind that there exist people who are actually enraged at the thought of females joining professional teams and playing in their own tournaments.
On December 22 2011 17:38 iamke55 wrote: It boggles my mind that there exist people who are actually enraged at the thought of females joining professional teams and playing in their own tournaments.
many others would find it mind boggling that you'd care enough about the opinions of people you deem stupid to waste your time writing out a message to them on a topic that they've clearly made up their minds on, which they'll ignore/not notice anyway
If you should only recruit players based on skill should all the foreign teams just ditch most of their players and pick up a bunch of random koreans right? Theres plenty of them that are probly consistently better than most foreigners. Get them off their teams, not worth watching.
On December 22 2011 17:38 iamke55 wrote: It boggles my mind that there exist people who are actually enraged at the thought of females joining professional teams and playing in their own tournaments.
many others would find it mind boggling that you'd care enough about the opinions of people you deem stupid to waste your time writing out a message to them on a topic that they've clearly made up their minds on, which they'll ignore/not notice anyway
On December 22 2011 17:38 iamke55 wrote: It boggles my mind that there exist people who are actually enraged at the thought of females joining professional teams and playing in their own tournaments.
many others would find it mind boggling that you'd care enough about the opinions of people you deem stupid to waste your time writing out a message to them on a topic that they've clearly made up their minds on, which they'll ignore/not notice anyway
I think teams always do publicity hires. Destiny has improved a lot, but when he was picked up he was just a popular streamer. Sixjax picked up Artosis back in the day, when he was easily worse than the rest of the team. Pretty much any second tier foreign team would pick up Day[9] in seconds.
edit: If anything, it's a good sign that people are doing publicity stunts. It shows their something to be gained by them: if "selling out" can occur, someone must be buying.
Good luck to Flo and Quantic. I really hope they use her in any clan wars if the situation allows for it. Also, of course I'd like to see more of her in singles competition now that she's taken time of from school to play full time. GL HF!
good job Quantic As much as I could somehow understand why people were hating in other "Girl joins a team" threads, if there's a foreign girl who deserves to be on a good team based on her skill it's definitely her, so congrats
On December 22 2011 17:49 RedBack wrote: If you should only recruit players based on skill should all the foreign teams just ditch most of their players and pick up a bunch of random koreans right? Theres plenty of them that are probly consistently better than most foreigners. Get them off their teams, not worth watching.
On December 22 2011 17:49 RedBack wrote: If you should only recruit players based on skill should all the foreign teams just ditch most of their players and pick up a bunch of random koreans right? Theres plenty of them that are probly consistently better than most foreigners. Get them off their teams, not worth watching.
wow, that would be like dream come true <3 on topic, gratz to flo.
edit: damn, fail edit.. -_- can a mod delete the previous post? thanks and sorry for the bother.
Flo seems like a nice person but I haven't really see her play so I guess I wait until she posts some results outside of female-only tournaments! Good luck!
Sorry. I'm not a hater, but in my opinion...its more a publicity move, than a professional one. There are atleast 20 people that dont have a team, who are much better than her. Yet they were never taken under consideration... sad.. anyway GoodLuck Quantic and flo.
Why is picking up one of the best female sc2 players such a joke to some people? Why is placing high in female tournaments not enough? If it was not in the real world, we would have to disallow all kinds of competitive sports for women.
If the women "progamers" starts bitching about needing their own girl tournaments i'm just going to cry and spit on them just like all the cs 1.6 fans did on the cs 1.6 women. It's a freaking game there is no physical advantage for the men except them being smarter. So girls either join the normal tournaments that is open for everyone or quit.
On December 22 2011 20:28 layerz wrote: If the women "progamers" starts bitching about needing their own girl tournaments i'm just going to cry and spit on them just like all the cs 1.6 fans did on the cs 1.6 women. It's a freaking game there is no physical advantage for the men except them being smarter. So girls either join the normal tournaments that is open for everyone or quit.
You're kidding right? This is a troll? No one really thinks this? D:
On December 22 2011 20:28 layerz wrote: If the women "progamers" starts bitching about needing their own girl tournaments i'm just going to cry and spit on them just like all the cs 1.6 fans did on the cs 1.6 women. It's a freaking game there is no physical advantage for the men except them being smarter. So girls either join the normal tournaments that is open for everyone or quit.
You're kidding right? This is a troll? No one really thinks this? D:
I wouldn't have phrased it the same way but i get the sentiments behind it. The E-sports community wants to get more women involved since alot of guys are obviously really good. A way of doing that is creating tournaments for women so they don't feel threatened and also feel motivated to play competitively.
When they feel comfortable to rise up to the challenge they will join regular tournaments like everybody else and with the rate SC2 is growing i see this happening in less than a year. Remember, Flo joining Quantic Gaming also inspires alot of other girls to start practicing their ass off.
Edit: Congratulations Flo and i look forward to your inevitable success!
On December 22 2011 20:28 layerz wrote: If the women "progamers" starts bitching about needing their own girl tournaments i'm just going to cry and spit on them just like all the cs 1.6 fans did on the cs 1.6 women. It's a freaking game there is no physical advantage for the men except them being smarter. So girls either join the normal tournaments that is open for everyone or quit.
You're kidding right? This is a troll? No one really thinks this? D:
No other of his previous 4 posts are of a trolling nature so unfortunatelly I think he's serious. I wonder how he concludes there are no physical differences while at the same time saying guys are smarter... He's basically making an argument against himself. Or it was some form of weird sarcasm/joke that I'm not getting.
I love her (those glasses <3 ) and hope she does really well in future tournaments. Especially in the men-dominated ones Future MLG champ here! Gogo :3
On December 22 2011 20:38 prOpSaiton wrote: I wouldn't have phrased it the same way but i get the sentiments behind it. The E-sports community wants to get more women involved since alot of guys are obviously really good. A way of doing that is creating tournaments for women so they don't feel threatened and also feel motivated to play competitively.
When they feel comfortable to rise up to the challenge they will join regular tournaments like everybody else and with the rate SC2 is growing i see this happening in less than a year. Remember, Flo joining Quantic Gaming also inspires alot of other girls to start practicing their ass off.
Edit: Congratulations Flo and i look forward to your inevitable success!
Yes, no I totally get the reasons behind making female tournaments and I am actually all for them as it brings publicity, money and fun to still budding sport.
I just find it absolutely astounding that there are still people in this day and age that have such an attitude towards any minority, especially women, and especially in eSports which, in itself, is a minority community compared to other sports and hobbies.
It makes me wonder if some people did not have attitudes thusly, would we even need female only tournaments? I just wish people would step back and look at the bigger picture. As a girl I'm quite happy to josh around with male friends and I will quite happily laugh along with 'get back in the kitchen' jokes because they're my mates and I'll counter back with a 'men can't ask for directions' remark or something.
But saying men are smarter and talking about spitting on women? Thanks guys.
On December 22 2011 20:27 h41fgod wrote: Why is picking up one of the best female sc2 players such a joke to some people? Why is placing high in female tournaments not enough? If it was not in the real world, we would have to disallow all kinds of competitive sports for women.
Because if they're gonna compete with top male players placing high in female tournaments usually isnt enough to get you anywhere.
People get pissed off at this because there are thousands of better players who could've gotten the oppertunity to play for Quantic etc. And they feel that they are more deserving because of their skill.
I think its a pretty smart move by Quantic though, they'll get a lot of publicity from aquiring Flo - and if she becomes good enough to compete with top foreigners she's gonna be batshit famous
If only there was a big female tournament like there was in Starcraft 1....I doubt we will see much of her since I still haven't seen any games from Slayers Eve or the girl in Startale to this day.
On December 22 2011 20:27 h41fgod wrote: Why is picking up one of the best female sc2 players such a joke to some people? Why is placing high in female tournaments not enough? If it was not in the real world, we would have to disallow all kinds of competitive sports for women.
Because if they're gonna compete with top male players placing high in female tournaments usually isnt enough to get you anywhere.
People get pissed off at this because there are thousands of better players who could've gotten the oppertunity to play for Quantic etc. And they feel that they are more deserving because of their skill.
I think its a pretty smart move by Quantic though, they'll get a lot of publicity from aquiring Flo - and if she becomes good enough to compete with top foreigners she's gonna be batshit famous
If you believe that there is no physical difference between men and women it would conclude that the female that are among the highest ranking females currently in the would at least have a decent potential to become great. It's not controversial at all for a real world sports team to aquire young unproven players based on both their potential and markability. The whole there are *insert a big number* of players better than her is a weak argument. Also from a business pov it also makes sense as long as there exists female only tournaments as it's a market that you can't really tap into unless you actually have a female on the team (like the tournaments or not).
On December 22 2011 20:52 Jacko11 wrote: If only there was a big female tournament like there was in Starcraft 1....I doubt we will see much of her since I still haven't seen any games from Slayers Eve or the girl in Startale to this day.
On December 22 2011 20:18 Drinc wrote: Now people can masturbate while watching starcraft.
why would we need girl players to do that? im a total fanboy for most of liquid
On December 22 2011 21:07 Fluffboll wrote: Have to love the amount of stupid people who feels the need to whine whenever a player is recruited for a team.
have to love the amount of stupid people who feel the need to praise everything a team does rather than have an opinion
to all the people here. this young lady and many others the wish to compete in sc2. Like in many other sports Such as football, basketball, and other olympic sport and so on and so on. there's a gender distribution. if u consider starcraft a sport, why no do that here aswell? I'll tell ya why. Because there's not enough female players...to make a competative team. Hence the integration amongst female and male Esport players.
But...females in the gaming industry are infirior to males... well wrong! they just started entering Esport when they found out barbies are no longer fun. give it 2-3 years... And i promise you... there will be a female that will take a major title!
women took 0 major titles in sc1 and they were segregated. i dont see how stopping them from having to play the best will help them prepare for beating a real champion, but ok.
While I think the pickup of SaSe and Naniwa is great for Quantic, as they are extremely good and dedicated player. I have to question where they are heading when they pick-up players such as Destiny and especially Flo. Players not known for any type of skill but rather for some marketing hype.
How will you do in the team leagues with just two good players?
On December 22 2011 20:52 Jacko11 wrote: If only there was a big female tournament like there was in Starcraft 1....I doubt we will see much of her since I still haven't seen any games from Slayers Eve or the girl in Startale to this day.
Aphrodite does stream on TL, if you're not watching her stream then that's another thing
On December 22 2011 20:28 layerz wrote: If the women "progamers" starts bitching about needing their own girl tournaments i'm just going to cry and spit on them just like all the cs 1.6 fans did on the cs 1.6 women. It's a freaking game there is no physical advantage for the men except them being smarter. So girls either join the normal tournaments that is open for everyone or quit.
Are you serious? I cannot believe someone truly believes such things
On December 22 2011 21:33 Paladia wrote: While I think the pickup of SaSe and Naniwa is great for Quantic, as they are extremely good and dedicated player. I have to question where they are heading when they pick-up players such as Destiny and especially Flo. Players not known for any type of skill but rather for some marketing hype.
How will you do in the team leagues with just two good players?
ask EG what their opinion on marketing is. only teams like quantic seem to get shit because of marketing, its so weird
I like this more than usual. When teams pick up a random player on the sole reason of being a female that annoys me. However from what I've seen of Flo she is good and is dedicated, having taken time off school to play full time shows commitment, so good luck to her and I hope she does well
I just hope she's marketed as a good player rather than just a girl
Doesn't make sense for Quantic to pick up players that are a stretch to make it 2 rounds into the open bracket at MLG. I just don't see the potential, just seems like obvious publicity grabs.
Don't want to sound too negative or dismissive, but I'll only say gratz when I see some good results at premier tournaments like MLG. I'm sure Flo has the potential, but that has been said regarding many female progamers and they rarely make it. So Flo GL, but no congratulations!
On December 22 2011 20:52 Jacko11 wrote: If only there was a big female tournament like there was in Starcraft 1....I doubt we will see much of her since I still haven't seen any games from Slayers Eve or the girl in Startale to this day.
Aphrodite does stream on TL, if you're not watching her stream then that's another thing
On December 22 2011 20:28 layerz wrote: If the women "progamers" starts bitching about needing their own girl tournaments i'm just going to cry and spit on them just like all the cs 1.6 fans did on the cs 1.6 women. It's a freaking game there is no physical advantage for the men except them being smarter. So girls either join the normal tournaments that is open for everyone or quit.
Are you serious? I cannot believe someone truly believes such things
what advantage to men have in starcraft 2. i dont agree that men are smarter, but i do think that the only thing stopping there from being successful girl gamers is that alot of the girls who get into gaming do it in an attempt to be cool, especially at a young age. and you need to start playing starcraft while your young-ish to have a chance to be really good. starting at 25-30 means youre at a huge disadvantage. so both of you are wrong. but at least your not being sexist about it
Quantic has quickly risen to become my second favorite team. They seem to be doing things very well and I hope they will give Flo the support she needs.
Good job Quantic and keep it up, we expect great things from you now.
On Dec 22 2011 08:30 NrGmonk wrote: At least she's not PMSFlo anymore
lol monk, like that sounded disturbing or something..?
Well after reading so many nonsense posts all I gotta say is there is some maturing to do for some of us community members. If you don't know who she is, then you should really reserve judgement until you go watch her stream or see her @ tournaments.
On December 22 2011 21:33 Paladia wrote: While I think the pickup of SaSe and Naniwa is great for Quantic, as they are extremely good and dedicated player. I have to question where they are heading when they pick-up players such as Destiny and especially Flo. Players not known for any type of skill but rather for some marketing hype.
How will you do in the team leagues with just two good players?
ask EG what their opinion on marketing is. only teams like quantic seem to get shit because of marketing, its so weird
Didn't EG's Alex at one point say he would never take a player like Naniwa because he's not marketable, even though he's a good player?
I just hope they signed her based purely on skill or potential and not because it's "in" to sign female players, I haven't got a clue about how good she really is. If that's not the case, then I'm really disappointed.
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
User was temp banned for this post.
Maybe you wouldn't be a mental child either!
On December 22 2011 09:35 fourColo wrote: This myth that female players get picked based on looks is hilarious because for male players, there's an arms race to look as fugly as possible so every female that takes a shower once a day looks like a supermodel in comparison.
On December 22 2011 09:45 fourColo wrote: My favorite team is Incredible Miracle... A stupid pleb like yourself has probably never heard of them, they're really underground.
On December 22 2011 09:59 AnonymousXV wrote: what a joke player to recruit
User was temp banned for this post.
How the hell is she a joke player? I mean maybe if your dad peed into your mom and you were born that way you might think this, and if so, condolences I don't want to hurt the feelings of someone with downs syndrome. But this is a retarded comment, you have to agree with me there.
This guy deserves a ban at least as much as the people he's responding to.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
Why is it wrong to ask that? Maybe he wouldn't ask every pro that joins a team. Maybe just the females, so what? He might want to know if she is better or worse than the other female pro gamers. Maybe he wants to know if she is GM or high master, or if she is in low master, he might think "hmm.. maybe I would have a chance against her" in a game. That's atleast what I think when I ask that question.
EDIT: Forgot, Gratz flo and quantic :3 Great to see the female scene growing. Fighting!
The reason why pretty gamer girls dont fit into the gaming community, is because the majority of any gaming community contains underage virgins who just cant handle these chicks (sad butweallknow its true.
that + the sexism, her skill level is probably pretty low compared to someone like Naniwa, but still shes in Quantic, some people might not like that)
I've seen teams in all types of games do this before, WoW mostly.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind.
'twas an honest question, I wasn't there when he went over. First series I recall seeing is him losing 1-2 to Trap in the Gom Classic, and then he was part of that list of players that included Tossgirl and the old legends (Boxer, Yellow, Reach, etc.) whom we always looked for in the offline prelims but kept losing in the first round.
Anyway, why do you believe there's "no question" that he was better than those players? His TLPD entry gives him an 8-20 record, Flying is 85-83 (over 50%), hyvaa is 156-151 (over 50%) and Juni is 99-120. And they've played some high calibre players too.
Hell, Pokju was 38-38.
Unfortunately, I never really followed the players who didn't have televised matches (because, well, they didn't have televised matches) so I really don't have any way to measure his performance on a fair metric. Given that you are apparently more knowledgeable than I, can you explain to me where your certainty comes from?
Okay: the only one I'm absolutely certain Idra was better than is Juni. Juni is (arguably) the worst A-team Zerg in several years. While he's won some games, he's a poor enough player that I assume he's an auto-loss for KHAN whenever he comes out. The defining moment for me was a playoff game (08-09 season) vs. Hwasin which went down like this:
Hwasin bunker-rushed, but placed the bunker too far away from the hatchery and didn't noticed till it was complete. Juni squashed the bunker and countered to Hwasin's nat. Hwasin hadn't yet expanded: Juni then proceeded to lose the game. (Here's the VOD.) I suppose you could say that's actually a lot like some of idra's blunders that we've seen, but my point is that Juni's still good enough that he gets A-team games regularly (to the despair of KHAN fans).
hyvaa came to mind because he's a player very like Idra in style, in that he's dangerous in a macro game. hyvaa's early-game is notoriously weak, while he's nearly brilliant if you let him get his Hive tech up. His first games were a series of ZvPs which he ended up playing almost like ZvT: delay, delay, delay, defiler-lurker-ling.
Flying... Flying started hot but has never particularly impressed me apart from occasional PvZ brilliance.
As for your stats: Flying is 54-44 offline (qualifiers and Dream League), but in the televised leagues he's 23-35, not quite 40%. hyvaa's similar: 80-56 in offlines, 70-89 in the regular leagues. Juni's 56-62 offline, 31-50 in regular leagues.
Yes: idra's record is worse than those. 6-16 offline, 2-4 in the one standard event (GOM). But he was good enough to take games off pros – Shuttle, Jaehoon – who are now A-team players. I believe that while he may have gotten some "favoritism" to actually make the team, in the end he was held back: as a "foreigner" and an "older player", his team wouldn't want to take the risk of playing idra enough to truly develop him as a Korean league player. This was compounded by the fact he was with eSTRO, which was struggling anyway and then badly hurt by the betting scandal (and folded at the end of the season). Even though management took the risk of bringing in a foreign player, they had to show results. If there were a stronger team that had picked up foreign players who stayed for a while, then we might have seen them play.
On December 22 2011 12:09 omgryebread wrote: women (not girls, you don't call male progamers "boys")
False dichotomy--you don't call them "men" either, usually. You call them "guys".
"Guy" is still a term that refers to adults, whereas "girl" refers primarily to children. There isn't a good casual term for adult females, since "gal" just sounds really stupid, and that sucks.
Flo's like "im really careful of not joining a team for marketing"...yea cuz thats obv. not what happened here lol (webcam interview included). QxG def. thinks you'll be a starting player soon enough.
Extremely disappointed in this acquisition. Shouldn't they wait until she posts consistent tournament results? It seems a bit premature to add a female to a major team at this point.
On December 22 2011 09:29 YuTz wrote: she is definitely the most skilled female player I've ever seen play in game myself.... I don't know of a better one in NA. Congrats!!
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
I'd assume it doesn't get asked because we've seen that most pros are high GM. The only other female Starcraft player that I've personally heard of is Ailuj, and hey, great for her, but she's only Diamond level.
First, I can't help but wonder how different the community's reaction to this would have been if the slayers_eve thing had gone differently. I believe that backlash started because of the way Eve's signing was publicized, if slayers hadn't said that they were signing her because of her looks but had let her play some games and speak with her skills, then I think we would have a lot less of this "is she good enough" BS every time there's a female player involved in anything.
Second, I want to say that I firmly believe flo "is good enough" and fits well on quantic. Although quantic does have Sase and Naniwa, they also have a pretty big "b-team" of players like Zelniq, Theogenis, Shuffle - arguably even inka and destiny - who are in GM or are GM level, but not tournament-winner good. A lot of those guys did top45 or top36 at some mlg or another this year, so they may have more proven results than flo, but flo has gotten noticed without being in a serious organization and there's no reason that flo couldn't be just as good as those guys or even better.
Third, quantic is the team that picked up Destiny, they are definitely looking for players who come with built-in publicity, so having the first female progamer on a serious team fits well with that.
your third point was your only valid one. like i said great move for QxG for marketing, just dumb of Flo to be naive enough to think it wasnt abuot that.
On December 22 2011 09:29 YuTz wrote: she is definitely the most skilled female player I've ever seen play in game myself.... I don't know of a better one in NA. Congrats!!
On December 22 2011 12:09 omgryebread wrote: women (not girls, you don't call male progamers "boys")
False dichotomy--you don't call them "men" either, usually. You call them "guys".
"Guy" is still a term that refers to adults, whereas "girl" refers primarily to children. There isn't a good casual term for adult females, since "gal" just sounds really stupid, and that sucks.
But "girls" is a term that refers to adults. It's the female counterpart of "guys". The same word happens to also be used for children, but "primarily" is your own judgment, and I don't agree with you.
I mean listen to yourself: on the one hand you're criticizing people because they use the term "girl" to refer to a young adult woman, and on the other hand you're asserting that the term "girl" is not used to refer to adult women. How is that consistent?
Also, it's in the dictionary (definition 1c. is the one that applies. Notice that it's not flagged as even "sometimes offensive".)
On December 22 2011 12:09 omgryebread wrote: women (not girls, you don't call male progamers "boys")
False dichotomy--you don't call them "men" either, usually. You call them "guys".
"Guy" is still a term that refers to adults, whereas "girl" refers primarily to children. There isn't a good casual term for adult females, since "gal" just sounds really stupid, and that sucks.
But "girls" is a term that refers to adults. It's the female counterpart of "guys". The same word happens to also be used for children, but "primarily" is your own judgment, and I don't agree with you.
I mean listen to yourself: on the one hand you're criticizing people because they use the term "girl" to refer to a young adult woman, and on the other hand you're asserting that the term "girl" is not used to refer to adult women. How is that consistent?
Also, it's in the dictionary (definition 1c. is the one that applies. Notice that it's not flagged as even "sometimes offensive".)
1c is a subset of 1d and 1d is classed as sometimes offensive. Also picking a random online dictionary to support your case is worth nothing. The word girl is used by a lot of people to refer to women but it doesn't mean it should be.
On December 22 2011 09:28 Bobster wrote: What league/rank is she on ladder?
Here we go. Do you ask this for every pro that gets signed by a team? Didn't think so.
Actually, this is intelligent to judge her on her performance on the ladder and not on her sex. I think he could ask this for a male progamer, i don't see any problem..
The amount of white knighting/needless gender bashing is really a shame for such an otherwise polite and good community. Wait until we have more results until we can judge to see if she is good enough. Meanwhile congrats to both parties.
Flo will travel and play alongside the rest of the Quantic players to domestic and international events
I seriously hope she does. Finally a press release about a girl joining a team, that doesn't sound so lame as "we added said female, because our team needs a female"
On December 22 2011 12:09 omgryebread wrote: women (not girls, you don't call male progamers "boys")
False dichotomy--you don't call them "men" either, usually. You call them "guys".
"Guy" is still a term that refers to adults, whereas "girl" refers primarily to children. There isn't a good casual term for adult females, since "gal" just sounds really stupid, and that sucks.
But "girls" is a term that refers to adults. It's the female counterpart of "guys". The same word happens to also be used for children, but "primarily" is your own judgment, and I don't agree with you.
I mean listen to yourself: on the one hand you're criticizing people because they use the term "girl" to refer to a young adult woman, and on the other hand you're asserting that the term "girl" is not used to refer to adult women. How is that consistent?
Also, it's in the dictionary (definition 1c. is the one that applies. Notice that it's not flagged as even "sometimes offensive".)
1c is a subset of 1d and 1d is classed as sometimes offensive. Also picking a random online dictionary to support your case is worth nothing. The word girl is used by a lot of people to refer to women but it doesn't mean it should be.
1) I think you're rather exaggerating when you say that a dictionary's word is "worth nothing". Dictionaries document the language as it is used. They're certainly a better proof of a word's usage than a single person's opinion is.
2) Merriam-Webster is not "a random online dictionary". It's probably the biggest/most respected dictionary publisher in the United States. Obviously I linked to an online version of it because I can't link you to a paper version.
3) What dictionary would you prefer? The OED? I can't link you to that because it's subscription-protected (you might have online access through your university, if you're affiliated with one), but the relevant definition there is 2a., "a young or relatively young woman". Again, no mention of offensiveness, though 2b (which is their parallel definition to M-W's 1d, a woman of any age) mentions "often derogatory", similarly to M-W's "sometimes offensive".
4) When you say that 1c is "a subset of 1d", I assume you mean that "a young unmarried woman" is a subset of "a single or married woman of any age". If you're concluding on that basis that the qualification "sometimes offensive", applied to 1d, applies to 1c as well, then the same logic would dictate that it applies to 1a too, "a female child from birth to adulthood". Since no one is arguing that, the logic is clearly flawed.
5) On the contrary, the fact that the dictionary marks only one of its definitions as "sometimes offensive" implies that only that one is "sometimes offensive".
6) Lastly, when you say, "The word girl is used by a lot of people to refer to women but it doesn't mean it should be," aren't you betraying that you're the one with an agenda? If many people use the word to refer to women of a certain age/point in life, without any derogatory connotation intended (and the dictionaries indeed support this usage) then I don't see why you should find it objectionable.
I can see why you might prefer having separate terms for "child" and "young woman", as we have with "boy" and "guy", but until a separate term for the female counterpart of "guy" actually exists (without sounding as stilted as "young woman"), then trying to get everyone to use the generic term "woman" rather than the word that says what they want to say is the sort of language crusade that I'm happy not to be a part of.
Its not like Haypro had done shit lately and look at the tear he went on out of no where...
If Flo going to consistently win touranments with top pro's... Not right now.
Is she capable of curb stomping you into oblivion yes. Is she doing what ever other pro gramer is doing. Yes, taking time off from other stuff dedicating her life to SC2 and trying to get better...
On December 23 2011 01:44 Apollo_Shards wrote: The amount of white knighting/needless gender bashing is really a shame for such an otherwise polite and good community. Wait until we have more results until we can judge to see if she is good enough. Meanwhile congrats to both parties.
What community are you referring too? It can't be the TL one because that hasn't been polite or good for a very very long time. I also like all the keyboard warriors who crawl out of their bushes to bash on someone, it's quite funny... retarded, but funny.
On December 23 2011 01:03 onedayclose wrote: Extremely disappointed in this acquisition. Shouldn't they wait until she posts consistent tournament results? It seems a bit premature to add a female to a major team at this point.
It depends on a team's philosophy on how to develop its players. EG has been criticized for not doing anything to develop up and coming talent and only interested in picking up "big names." So damned if you do, damned if you don't am I right? Good luck to Flo and Quantic. Hope everything works out for them.
On December 23 2011 01:03 onedayclose wrote: Extremely disappointed in this acquisition. Shouldn't they wait until she posts consistent tournament results? It seems a bit premature to add a female to a major team at this point.
It depends on a team's philosophy on how to develop its players. EG has been criticized for not doing anything to develop up and coming talent and only interested in picking up "big names." So damned if you do, damned if you don't am I right? Good luck to Flo and Quantic. Hope everything works out for them.
That should be the "warning" Teams/players got everytime they announced/posted something on TL
Hm I dont think this recent influx of female gamer pickups means anything except delusional team managers. If they can compete in the male tournaments, fine. But who cares about female only tourneys??? In pretty much every sport the female leagues/tourneys attract _significantly_ less viewership and SC2 esports is pretty damn small already compared to normal sports. I honestly cant imagine female only events being profitable anytime soon, unless they invite models who play topless or smth.
Female gamers get a lot more attention than a corresponding male counterpart. Therefore it makes sense for teams marketing wise to pick up those top females, even if they cant compete with the best or even second best males (yet?).
I dont see any problems for anyone coming up from this move. So well yeah, congratz Flo, congratz Quantic.
On December 23 2011 02:34 creepcolony wrote: Female gamers get a lot more attention than a corresponding male counterpart. Therefore it makes sense for teams marketing wise to pick up those top females, even if they cant compete with the best or even second best males (yet?).
I dont see any problems for anyone coming up from this move. So well yeah, congratz Flo, congratz Quantic.
Thats some weird logic. Yeah, they get more attention than a corresponding male counterpart - but that doesnt mean it makes sense for teams to pick em up. A corresponding male counterpart in this case would be a high masters player. How much attention does a normal high masters male get? None. So yeah, she gets more attention than none, but still nowhere near the attention a well performing male progamer gets. Ofc it depends on the investment made. Most likely she gets a tiny fraction of what the male players get.
On December 23 2011 02:34 creepcolony wrote: Female gamers get a lot more attention than a corresponding male counterpart. Therefore it makes sense for teams marketing wise to pick up those top females, even if they cant compete with the best or even second best males (yet?).
Where did you get that from? I see a load of reddit topics when Naniwa streams, Day9 daily is running, KSL, Artosis streaming and so on. I can't recall any topics about Flo or any other female gamers. Same goes for viewer numbers, does she come close to Destiny or other popular viewers?
It makes sense if they want to support females but claiming they get more attention - I doubt that.
On December 23 2011 02:34 creepcolony wrote: Female gamers get a lot more attention than a corresponding male counterpart. Therefore it makes sense for teams marketing wise to pick up those top females, even if they cant compete with the best or even second best males (yet?).
Where did you get that from? I see a load of reddit topics when Naniwa streams, Day9 daily is running, KSL, Artosis streaming and so on. I can't recall any topics about Flo or any other female gamers. Same goes for viewer numbers, does she come close to Destiny or other popular viewers?
It makes sense if they want to support females but claiming they get more attention - I doubt that.
Well, first you make a horrible comparison: Naniwa or others mentioned are no corresponding male counterparts to Flo. So its totaly invalid. Second, there are quite a few topics about female gamers, their streaming threads have quite a few posts. Third. Destiny is among the top5 streamer favourites id say. Do you think that is a matching comparison either ?
You cant seriously deny that Flo or Julia get way more attention than some random male master player ?
On December 23 2011 02:34 creepcolony wrote: Female gamers get a lot more attention than a corresponding male counterpart. Therefore it makes sense for teams marketing wise to pick up those top females, even if they cant compete with the best or even second best males (yet?).
Where did you get that from? I see a load of reddit topics when Naniwa streams, Day9 daily is running, KSL, Artosis streaming and so on. I can't recall any topics about Flo or any other female gamers. Same goes for viewer numbers, does she come close to Destiny or other popular viewers?
It makes sense if they want to support females but claiming they get more attention - I doubt that.
Ah the beauty of internet argument logic. Completely ignore the key word "corresponding" and claim he was trying to compare Flo to Day9, Artosis, Naniwa, and Destiny. LOL gotta love the arguments in female gamer threads.
On December 23 2011 02:34 creepcolony wrote: Female gamers get a lot more attention than a corresponding male counterpart. Therefore it makes sense for teams marketing wise to pick up those top females, even if they cant compete with the best or even second best males (yet?).
I dont see any problems for anyone coming up from this move. So well yeah, congratz Flo, congratz Quantic.
Thats some weird logic. Yeah, they get more attention than a corresponding male counterpart - but that doesnt mean it makes sense for teams to pick em up. A corresponding male counterpart in this case would be a high masters player. How much attention does a normal high masters male get? None. So yeah, she gets more attention than none, but still nowhere near the attention a well performing male progamer gets. Ofc it depends on the investment made. Most likely she gets a tiny fraction of what the male players get.
Sex sells there are alot of players who are way better then her who get zero recognition. ):
Why would they pick her up? Just because she's female... that's like chauvinism the other way around, if she would have been male no pro team would have ever recruited her...
On December 23 2011 02:34 creepcolony wrote: Female gamers get a lot more attention than a corresponding male counterpart. Therefore it makes sense for teams marketing wise to pick up those top females, even if they cant compete with the best or even second best males (yet?).
I dont see any problems for anyone coming up from this move. So well yeah, congratz Flo, congratz Quantic.
Thats some weird logic. Yeah, they get more attention than a corresponding male counterpart - but that doesnt mean it makes sense for teams to pick em up. A corresponding male counterpart in this case would be a high masters player. How much attention does a normal high masters male get? None. So yeah, she gets more attention than none, but still nowhere near the attention a well performing male progamer gets. Ofc it depends on the investment made. Most likely she gets a tiny fraction of what the male players get.
Sex sells there are alot of players who are way better then her who get zero recognition. ):
Same goes for our foreign stars like Idra, sheth, Kiwikaki etc. compared to Korean players. Clearly for playing it sexy.
On December 23 2011 03:20 SharkStarcraft wrote: Why would they pick her up? Just because she's female... that's like chauvinism the other way around, if she would have been male no pro team would have ever recruited her...
Why would Dignitas pick up BlinG? Just because he's brittish. If he would have been Korean no pro team would have ever recruited him...
On December 23 2011 03:20 SharkStarcraft wrote: Why would they pick her up? Just because she's female... that's like chauvinism the other way around, if she would have been male no pro team would have ever recruited her...
Why would Dignitas pick up BlinG? Just because he's brittish. If he would have been Korean no pro team would have ever recruited him...
He actually won an event they held. But yes, i see the point you are making
Don't see a huge need to whiteknight the female players. Having to prove themselves by being good at the game is probably one of the best motivators they could have.
Wow, I can't beleive the ammount of terrible posters here. Terrible posters or secretly members of Quantic Gaming that can't accept the fact that Quantic Gaming picked up a female with a passion for playing Starcraft II to play for their roster. It must be a frustrating as hell that Flo is blessed with good looks aswell and can play the game well. What the hell is wrong with you people? Go make a damned blog about how females have no place in gaming communities somewhere else. I don't get all this negativity.
I don't agree with any team signing a female player when there are male players that would easily out preform them. To me, it's just as sexist as the people on here trolling her about her gender because she really didn't "earn" her spot on the team outside of being a woman. If she had won some major non-female tournament, or at least done well at it, this wouldn't even be a discussion because it would be clear that she had shown she had the ability to play with the best and win.
I am all for supporting female gamers, but this isn't soccer/football where women are already at a clear physical disadvantage and need to be given a special league to compete against other women. There's really no reason, aside from dealing with the trolls as she already said, that a woman would have a more difficult time becoming the best of the best at a game like Starcraft 2. Obviously she is a woman, so in this situation it works out in her favor, and I think she made the right choice here; I just don't think Quantic did. There are hundreds of more talented male gamers who are frothing at the mouth for the opportunity to join a pro-gaming team.
hmm. i wonder if we will witness the first successful female sc2 player. even though she only got the position because shes a girl "more colorful roster," There really isnt a problem with that. hope she does well, its not like shes taking the job of anyone that really matters.
Why everyone hating on my sexy friend FLO! Yes she is a girl, yes she is terran, 2 advantages to gaming in sc2 by far but still have to give her some credit for putting herself out there and focusing on a goal to become the best, Take initiative in your gaming if you want to be pro, stop typing your rants behind a screen and prove yourself ingame. Play and STFU or Be played and continue being stuck on your bronze ladders.
On December 23 2011 03:51 Vinnythechin wrote: Why everyone hating on my sexy friend FLO! Yes she is a girl, yes she is terran, 2 advantages to gaming in sc2 by far but still have to give her some credit for putting herself out there and focusing on a goal to become the best, Take initiative in your gaming if you want to be pro, stop typing your rants behind a screen and prove yourself ingame. Play and STFU or Be played and continue being stuck on your bronze ladders.
you seem a little too mad for the situation. i have no problem with a team picking up a player because their a girl. but to say "just prove yourself ingame?" she didnt really prove herself as a top gamer. she proved herself and one of the best FEMALE gamers. so as i agree with your point, you need to chill on the ranting.
On December 23 2011 03:44 kappadevin wrote: There are hundreds of more talented male gamers who are frothing at the mouth for the opportunity to join a pro-gaming team.
And not one of them has the revenue potential for Quantic that Flo does nor can they join female-only leagues. So yea, if you're gonna make the argument that players should be recruited based on skill only, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
On December 23 2011 03:20 SharkStarcraft wrote: Why would they pick her up? Just because she's female... that's like chauvinism the other way around, if she would have been male no pro team would have ever recruited her...
Why would Dignitas pick up BlinG? Just because he's brittish. If he would have been Korean no pro team would have ever recruited him...
Exactly! lol... Flo might not have made it to MLG pool play but there are plenty of players with results similar to hers on teams like this. Getting signed to a team doesn't mean you have to be the next Idra, Stephano, or Naniwa, or even a solid tournament performer like a Sheth, White-Ra, or Demuslim. Aren't there already some players on quantic whose names I don't know because they haven't done shit?
There are also plenty of female gamers whose names I don't know because they haven't done shit either. Flo is the one I do remember because she has been consistently trying to compete seriously, even if she hasn't had outstanding success yet.
On December 23 2011 03:44 kappadevin wrote: There are hundreds of more talented male gamers who are frothing at the mouth for the opportunity to join a pro-gaming team.
And not one of them has the revenue potential for Quantic that Flo does nor can they join female-only leagues. So yea, if you're gonna make the argument that players should be recruited based on skill only, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
this is the best point in the entire 21 pages of this forum
On December 23 2011 03:44 kappadevin wrote: There are hundreds of more talented male gamers who are frothing at the mouth for the opportunity to join a pro-gaming team.
And not one of them has the revenue potential for Quantic that Flo does nor can they join female-only leagues. So yea, if you're gonna make the argument that players should be recruited based on skill only, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
Alright. Lets say you and a woman both apply for the same job. We'll say you both have completely identical qualifications for this position, aside from your gender differences. Now we'll say that she gets hired over you for no given reason aside from the fact that she is a woman.
Is that fair to you? Are you satisfied knowing you lost your shot at a job just because she is of the opposite gender? How is that not sexism?
Also on your point of revenue potential: There has been no evidence that female gamers or even female only leagues bring in more revenue. In fact, the DIVINA tournament had less sponsors and a far smaller viewing base than a slow day at the GSL. So if you are going to make the argument that players should be recruited based on gender, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
On December 23 2011 03:51 Vinnythechin wrote: Why everyone hating on my sexy friend FLO! Yes she is a girl, yes she is terran, 2 advantages to gaming in sc2 by far but still have to give her some credit for putting herself out there and focusing on a goal to become the best, Take initiative in your gaming if you want to be pro, stop typing your rants behind a screen and prove yourself ingame. Play and STFU or Be played and continue being stuck on your bronze ladders.
you seem a little too mad for the situation. i have no problem with a team picking up a player because their a girl. but to say "just prove yourself ingame?" she didnt really prove herself as a top gamer. she proved herself and one of the best FEMALE gamers. so as i agree with your point, you need to chill on the ranting.
mad lol not even close, more like laughing at all the haters, and she did prove herself as a player by attending these events and to be able to compete for some strive shows more than those who can't or won't. How many people talk shit in this game but never step up when its time to play.
On December 23 2011 03:20 SharkStarcraft wrote: Why would they pick her up? Just because she's female... that's like chauvinism the other way around, if she would have been male no pro team would have ever recruited her...
Chauvinism the other way around? So Quantic believes woman are superior to man and hired a woman? Well, good for them.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind.
'twas an honest question, I wasn't there when he went over. First series I recall seeing is him losing 1-2 to Trap in the Gom Classic, and then he was part of that list of players that included Tossgirl and the old legends (Boxer, Yellow, Reach, etc.) whom we always looked for in the offline prelims but kept losing in the first round.
Anyway, why do you believe there's "no question" that he was better than those players? His TLPD entry gives him an 8-20 record, Flying is 85-83 (over 50%), hyvaa is 156-151 (over 50%) and Juni is 99-120. And they've played some high calibre players too.
Hell, Pokju was 38-38.
Unfortunately, I never really followed the players who didn't have televised matches (because, well, they didn't have televised matches) so I really don't have any way to measure his performance on a fair metric. Given that you are apparently more knowledgeable than I, can you explain to me where your certainty comes from?
Okay: the only one I'm absolutely certain Idra was better than is Juni. Juni is (arguably) the worst A-team Zerg in several years. While he's won some games, he's a poor enough player that I assume he's an auto-loss for KHAN whenever he comes out. The defining moment for me was a playoff game (08-09 season) vs. Hwasin which went down like this:
Hwasin bunker-rushed, but placed the bunker too far away from the hatchery and didn't noticed till it was complete. Juni squashed the bunker and countered to Hwasin's nat. Hwasin hadn't yet expanded: Juni then proceeded to lose the game. (Here's the VOD.) I suppose you could say that's actually a lot like some of idra's blunders that we've seen, but my point is that Juni's still good enough that he gets A-team games regularly (to the despair of KHAN fans).
hyvaa came to mind because he's a player very like Idra in style, in that he's dangerous in a macro game. hyvaa's early-game is notoriously weak, while he's nearly brilliant if you let him get his Hive tech up. His first games were a series of ZvPs which he ended up playing almost like ZvT: delay, delay, delay, defiler-lurker-ling.
Flying... Flying started hot but has never particularly impressed me apart from occasional PvZ brilliance.
I'm not saying those were great A-teamers, but their results are evidently superior to Idra's. You seem to be comparing their skills to those of other A-teamers, but I get the impression you're using a different metric for Idra. And Juni has wins against Effort, Bisu and Flash. Hyvaa has wins against Jaedong, Flash, Leta, Fantasy and other noteworthy players. Flying has won against Leta and Sea. Idra has dominated foreigner events and taken a series off ACE's GoRush. Otherwise the best players he's beaten are Jaehoon, Shuttle and, well, Flying. In series that he lost.
On December 23 2011 00:26 VGhost wrote:As for your stats: Flying is 54-44 offline (qualifiers and Dream League), but in the televised leagues he's 23-35, not quite 40%. hyvaa's similar: 80-56 in offlines, 70-89 in the regular leagues. Juni's 56-62 offline, 31-50 in regular leagues.
Yes: idra's record is worse than those. 6-16 offline, 2-4 in the one standard event (GOM). But he was good enough to take games off pros – Shuttle, Jaehoon – who are now A-team players. I believe that while he may have gotten some "favoritism" to actually make the team, in the end he was held back: as a "foreigner" and an "older player", his team wouldn't want to take the risk of playing idra enough to truly develop him as a Korean league player. This was compounded by the fact he was with eSTRO, which was struggling anyway and then badly hurt by the betting scandal (and folded at the end of the season). Even though management took the risk of bringing in a foreign player, they had to show results. If there were a stronger team that had picked up foreign players who stayed for a while, then we might have seen them play.
Obviously he had a major disadvantage in not being able to speak the language, that probably takes away a lot of the benefits of playing in a team house. One thing that would really help illuminate this subject would be knowing how long it typically takes for a b-teamer to break through, if they ever do. I don't suppose you know where we could get those?
Incidentally, didn't I play against you in an absolutely atrocious 2v2 in SC2GG's Star Cup a year or two ago? I seem to recall your ID.
On December 23 2011 03:51 Vinnythechin wrote: Why everyone hating on my sexy friend FLO! Yes she is a girl, yes she is terran, 2 advantages to gaming in sc2 by far but still have to give her some credit for putting herself out there and focusing on a goal to become the best, Take initiative in your gaming if you want to be pro, stop typing your rants behind a screen and prove yourself ingame. Play and STFU or Be played and continue being stuck on your bronze ladders.
you seem a little too mad for the situation. i have no problem with a team picking up a player because their a girl. but to say "just prove yourself ingame?" she didnt really prove herself as a top gamer. she proved herself and one of the best FEMALE gamers. so as i agree with your point, you need to chill on the ranting.
mad lol not even close, more like laughing at all the haters, and she did prove herself as a player by attending these events and to be able to compete for some strive shows more than those who can't or won't. How many people talk shit in this game but never step up when its time to play.
Well whats worse, getting comments about their good looks(happened in this thread) and special fan boy treatment, or unusually high questioning of their skills because they are females?
Personally I think the former is worse. Plus people seem to discuss the skills of all players all the time so that part seems like a normal routine in team discussions. Just look at the other discussions about quantics players outside Sase and Naniwa for example.
Also, what do we want, females that can actually compete or female players being cute publicity gimmicks?
Where exactly in this thread? I think you'd have to really dig to find those comments to back up your preconceived notion. The vast majority of comments on this thread have been: 1) Congratulatory 2) Dismissive or antagonistic and sometimes outright hostile that a team recruited a female (variety of reasons) 3) Argumements supporting a team recruiting a female (variety of reasons)
I'm sure can find some, but the comments about looks and fanboyism are far and few between.
Alright. Lets say you and a woman both apply for the same job. We'll say you both have completely identical qualifications for this position, aside from your gender differences. Now we'll say that she gets hired over you for no given reason aside from the fact that she is a woman.
Is that fair to you? Are you satisfied knowing you lost your shot at a job just because she is of the opposite gender? How is that not sexism?
Irrelevant/straw man. Your example would only hold if I had said "Flo should be chosen over a high master male solely because of the fact that she is female." Of course that's absurd and it's not what I said. She was chosen because she has greater revenue potential than the random high master male, and she can join female-only tournaments. Therefore she has different qualifications than Joe Schmoe male high master and deserved to be chosen.
On December 23 2011 04:09 kappadevin wrote:
Also on your point of revenue potential: There has been no evidence that female gamers or even female only leagues bring in more revenue. In fact, the DIVINA tournament had less sponsors and a far smaller viewing base than a slow day at the GSL. So if you are going to make the argument that players should be recruited based on gender, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
There's plenty of evidence - stream viewership and website traffic. Some random high master male will bring in like 8 stream viewers, bud. Also your comparison of the DIVINA tournament to the GSL is absurd and irrelevant as no one would expect the DVINIA tourney to compete with GSL. A relevant comparison would have been the sponsorship difference between DIVINIA and any high master tournament, of which there are about a dozen per day.
Hopefully your next response will be a little better thought out because the logic you just used was pretty laughable.
Where exactly in this thread? I think you'd have to really dig to find those comments to back up your preconceived notion. The vast majority of comments on this thread have been: 1) Congratulatory 2) Dismissive or antagonistic and sometimes outright hostile that a team recruited a female (variety of reasons) 3) Argumements supporting a team recruiting a female (variety of reasons)
I'm sure can find some, but the comments about looks and fanboyism are far and few between.
Would have to guesstimate but the arguing about it being a female from both sides(my two posts included) seem to be most common with congratulation posts second most common.
People don't seem to defend other players skills or whatever without elaborating or using examples so based on that it appears to be lot of special fanboyism.
Like I said in my other post, I don't see a big need for whiteknighting the female players since their skills will speak for themselves if they get good. And let's be honest, regardless if we end up having separate leagues for males and females or not, competitive gaming(or any sport) is about being good at it.
Many females seem to be gifted with extremely fast and good finger coordination and I'm curious about how that could translate to sc2 performance personally and so on. But people should be able to discuss their skills etc like other players without getting whiteknighted. Just like people shouldn't criticize female players just because they are females.
"Sexism" can go both ways and I doubt I would want to get treated like a cute brainless puppy if I was a female player. To be realistic we will probably have to live with a little bit of both but that doesn't mean we have to ignore it.
Alright. Lets say you and a woman both apply for the same job. We'll say you both have completely identical qualifications for this position, aside from your gender differences. Now we'll say that she gets hired over you for no given reason aside from the fact that she is a woman.
Is that fair to you? Are you satisfied knowing you lost your shot at a job just because she is of the opposite gender? How is that not sexism?
Irrelevant/straw man. Your example would only hold if I had said "Flo should be chosen over a high master male solely because of the fact that she is female." Of course that's absurd and it's not what I said. She was chosen because she has greater revenue potential than the random high master male, and she can join female-only tournaments. Therefore she has different qualifications than Joe Schmoe male high master and deserved to be chosen.
Also on your point of revenue potential: There has been no evidence that female gamers or even female only leagues bring in more revenue. In fact, the DIVINA tournament had less sponsors and a far smaller viewing base than a slow day at the GSL. So if you are going to make the argument that players should be recruited based on gender, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
There's plenty of evidence - stream viewership and website traffic. Some random high master male will bring in like 8 stream viewers, bud. Also your comparison of the DIVINA tournament to the GSL is absurd and irrelevant as no one would expect the DVINIA tourney to compete with GSL. A relevant comparison would have been the sponsorship difference between DIVINIA and any high master tournament, of which there are about a dozen per day.
Hopefully your next response will be a little better thought out because the logic you just used was pretty laughable.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors. The idea that she will generate more revenue is being pulled right out of your ass. On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
EDIT: I really am not against her being a girl gamer, I am just against her getting special treatment for being a girl. I honestly feel like it undermines the spirit of competition to purposely sign on a sub-par player just for her to be eye candy for the team.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
EDIT: I mean women have fought for decades for equal treatment, and yet we as a community hold this back from ever happening by basically babying the female gamers. We give them their own tournament, we hold their standard of skill level lower, and we essentially prevent them from really reaching the same level as the males. We perpetuate this cycle because we want to include women in gaming, but in doing so, we inevitably prevent them from reaching the same level of skill as their male counterparts.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Anyways I am done arguing in this thread. If you guys think hand holding women is going to make them better overall, that's fine. Lowering our standards of expectations to meet theirs is only going to turn SC2 into BW where women play second fiddle to the males and never share the same spotlight.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
This is nonsense, low level pros gets get a few hundred viewers tops, often times less than that unless they're entertaining like Destiny, but then it's not his skill level that attracts viewers but his personality.
And you still fail to comprehend what Doc.Rivers tries to say. At this point I think it's purposely.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
It's the internet. Everybody is referred to as a male.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
I guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
I guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
So now that you're losing an argument you state you are female because...? (I'm not trying to troll - I'm honestly interested in why, now, you choose to inform us of your gender)
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
I guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
Are you equally upset about how foreign players gets better contracts and salaries than Korean players? It's essentially the same thing. Players aren't paid after what skill level they're at but how marketable they are. Results is just one of many deciding factors, so your logic is backwards. Why should female players be treated differently?
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
I guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
So now that you're losing an argument you state your a chick because...?
Let's say for a moment that Doc is right, that she was signed because she will bring in higher ad revenue. That would still mean that Quantic is signing her because she is a woman. They would think that because she is a woman, being of lower skill value would still bring her a high number of viewers.
How is that not insulting to Flo? It's basically Quantic saying that we could have signed anyone but we signed you because we know you are a woman and that will bring us more ad revenue. It isn't like she was coming off the back of some major tournament win, or had been showing consistantly good results in tournaments.
I just feel like all of the arguments supporting this signing are trying to find excuses for the obvious: She was signed because she was a woman, not because she was the best player they could have signed. I want to see a real true girl pro-gamer that gets signed to a team out of pure merit, a girl who just comes through a tournament and dominates. I want female gamers to be put at the same level as their male counterparts, because I know they are completely capable of doing so.
I don't want their to have to be separate female tournaments for them to showcase their skills. I think it takes away from the entire idea of the competition, as if being a woman is some sort of crutch that doesn't let them compete equally with men, and therefore need special consideration to be able to win a tournament.
On December 23 2011 07:00 Doc.Rivers wrote: [quote]
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
[quote]
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
I guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
So now that you're losing an argument you state your a chick because...?
Let's say for a moment that Doc is right, that she was signed because she will bring in higher ad revenue. That would still mean that Quantic is signing her because she is a woman. They would think that because she is a woman, being of lower skill value would still bring her a high number of viewers.
How is that not insulting to Flo? It's basically Quantic saying that we could have signed anyone but we signed you because we know you are a woman and that will bring us more ad revenue. It isn't like she was coming off the back of some major tournament win, or had been showing consistantly good results in tournaments.
I just feel like all of the arguments supporting this signing are trying to find excuses for the obvious: She was signed because she was a woman, not because she was the best player they could have signed. I want to see a real true girl pro-gamer that gets signed to a team out of pure merit, a girl who just comes through a tournament and dominates. I want female gamers to be put at the same level as their male counterparts, because I know they are completely capable of doing so.
I don't want their to have to be separate female tournaments for them to showcase their skills. I think it takes away from the entire idea of the competition, as if being a woman is some sort of crutch that doesn't let them compete equally with men, and therefore need special consideration to be able to win a tournament.
I enjoy the fact that you didn't field my question, but I'll humor your post anyways.
Name me one female in the scene right now who is at the same skill level of anyone in code S.
Now name me any number of mid-to-high-masters players with good potential to be code S material. Lets put it this way - I enjoy playing SC2, quite a bit, and attend LANs and other tournaments, some of which are female only, and post decent results. And I want to get better. It's just that I'm currently working a dull 9 to 5 and I'm paying off some student loans from back when I was at college.
Do you ever expect me to get to code S (even if I have the most potential out of any person to play SC2)? Probably not. You can't train like the pros train while working 40 hours a week. It's just not possible. Playing SC2 at a very high level is a job. And usually without team sponsorship there's no way you can quit your job and go pro full time.
I'm all for someone working their way up to the top all by themselves (for example the one redditor who's taking a year off to go pro), but it's naive to think that anyone wanting to better themselves as a player of SC2 would turn down team sponsorship on principle. If you want to get ahead you get ahead by any means possible.
(Also I'm male, just using the above as an example)
who cares? at the end of the day if quantic signs someone who brings them money its better for quantic. i doubt anyone in her position would say no to an offer like this on some odd "moral" grounds.
i agree that i would love to see top female sc2 players compete at the big events. isnt this simply a step towards making that happen?
Name one sport played professionally by men and women where women get paid more and also get more viewers and sponsors.
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
On December 23 2011 06:37 kappadevin wrote: On the stream list right now, Aphrodite has 864 viewers. That's less than every other pro-gamer that is currently streaming except Haypro and Minigun. I don't see any "evidence" in stream viewership from those numbers, except that she, just like every other mediocre player on a pro team, generates the same amount of stream viewers.
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
I miss the days when people had to earn their progaming license by winning a tournament. Now the term "progamer" is just a misnomer for someone who plays Starcraft 2 on a team. #MissingBW
On December 23 2011 07:07 kappadevin wrote: [quote]
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
I guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
So now that you're losing an argument you state your a chick because...?
Let's say for a moment that Doc is right, that she was signed because she will bring in higher ad revenue. That would still mean that Quantic is signing her because she is a woman. They would think that because she is a woman, being of lower skill value would still bring her a high number of viewers.
How is that not insulting to Flo? It's basically Quantic saying that we could have signed anyone but we signed you because we know you are a woman and that will bring us more ad revenue. It isn't like she was coming off the back of some major tournament win, or had been showing consistantly good results in tournaments.
I just feel like all of the arguments supporting this signing are trying to find excuses for the obvious: She was signed because she was a woman, not because she was the best player they could have signed. I want to see a real true girl pro-gamer that gets signed to a team out of pure merit, a girl who just comes through a tournament and dominates. I want female gamers to be put at the same level as their male counterparts, because I know they are completely capable of doing so.
I don't want their to have to be separate female tournaments for them to showcase their skills. I think it takes away from the entire idea of the competition, as if being a woman is some sort of crutch that doesn't let them compete equally with men, and therefore need special consideration to be able to win a tournament.
I enjoy the fact that you didn't field my question, but I'll humor your post anyways.
Name me one female in the scene right now who is at the same skill level of anyone in code S.
Now name me any number of mid-to-high-masters players with good potential to be code S material. Lets put it this way - I enjoy playing SC2, quite a bit, and attend LANs and other tournaments, some of which are female only, and post decent results. And I want to get better. It's just that I'm currently working a dull 9 to 5 and I'm paying off some student loans from back when I was at college.
Do you ever expect me to get to code S (even if I have the most potential out of any person to play SC2)? Probably not. You can't train like the pros train while working 40 hours a week. It's just not possible. Playing SC2 at a very high level is a job. And usually without team sponsorship there's no way you can quit your job and go pro full time.
I'm all for someone working their way up to the top all by themselves (for example the one redditor who's taking a year off to go pro), but it's naive to think that anyone wanting to better themselves as a player of SC2 would turn down team sponsorship on principle. If you want to get ahead you get ahead by any means possible.
(Also I'm male, just using the above as an example)
I hope you are right about that. I mean, she seemed pretty eager to improve and learn to be better, and I hope she does do well. I already posted much earlier that I support her decision to join Quantic for those exact reasons.
Even in the interview, though, it felt to me like they were drawing unneeded attention to the fact that she was a woman. Most of the questions they asked were in reference to that fact, as if it was a critical part of their decision to sign her, which rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, one of the questions was about how guys would be able to pick up a pro-gamer girl... It was all in good fun, but still...
EDIT: To clarify, I am upset about Quantic's decision to sign her and their motivations for it, not for Flo's decision to join them.
On December 23 2011 07:00 Doc.Rivers wrote: [quote]
Irrelevant, we're talking about well-known female SC2 players, not female players from other sports. We don't need to look at basketball to determine whether a female SC2 player has greater revenue potential than a random high master male.
[quote]
Again your attempt at comparison is completely irrelevant. Your entire argument concerns high master males because they're the ones you think are more skilled than Flo and should be chosen over her. Yet you point to the stream numbers of professional, featured male streamers to try to demonstrate that high master males have equal revenue potential to Flo. Can you not see why that example is irrelevant? Think it about it for a minute.
EDIT: And to claim that Quantic signed Flo for her to serve as eye-candy for the rest of the team...well, I hope you realize you aren't helping yourself appear intelligent.
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
OI guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
So now that you're losing an argument you state your a chick because...?
Let's say for a moment that Doc is right, that she was signed because she will bring in higher ad revenue. That would still mean that Quantic is signing her because she is a woman. They would think that because she is a woman, being of lower skill value would still bring her a high number of viewers.
How is that not insulting to Flo? It's basically Quantic saying that we could have signed anyone but we signed you because we know you are a woman and that will bring us more ad revenue. It isn't like she was coming off the back of some major tournament win, or had been showing consistantly good results in tournaments.
I just feel like all of the arguments supporting this signing are trying to find excuses for the obvious: She was signed because she was a woman, not because she was the best player they could have signed. I want to see a real true girl pro-gamer that gets signed to a team out of pure merit, a girl who just comes through a tournament and dominates. I want female gamers to be put at the same level as their male counterparts, because I know they are completely capable of doing so.
I don't want their to have to be separate female tournaments for them to showcase their skills. I think it takes away from the entire idea of the competition, as if being a woman is some sort of crutch that doesn't let them compete equally with men, and therefore need special consideration to be able to win a tournament.
Every single one of your points can be refuted by two words: female tournaments. You haven't really given any reasons against them except your own personal feelings about what competition should be. Would you argue against female events in chess or snooker, both of which arguably involve less physical dexterity than sc?
People in this thread are right, if she was male there is a 99% chance she would be unknown, she got recruited solely based on her gender. I don't get why people are trying to say she wasn't.
Girls have an easy in in esports, they simply don't have to work as hard/know the same people. This does not mean its easy for them just significantly easier than for a male of the same skill level. this is the world we live in, deal with it.
If you honestly believe she got signed for any reason other than being a girl you are completely delusional.
On December 23 2011 07:30 Doc.Rivers wrote: [quote]
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
I guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
So now that you're losing an argument you state your a chick because...?
Let's say for a moment that Doc is right, that she was signed because she will bring in higher ad revenue. That would still mean that Quantic is signing her because she is a woman. They would think that because she is a woman, being of lower skill value would still bring her a high number of viewers.
How is that not insulting to Flo? It's basically Quantic saying that we could have signed anyone but we signed you because we know you are a woman and that will bring us more ad revenue. It isn't like she was coming off the back of some major tournament win, or had been showing consistantly good results in tournaments.
I just feel like all of the arguments supporting this signing are trying to find excuses for the obvious: She was signed because she was a woman, not because she was the best player they could have signed. I want to see a real true girl pro-gamer that gets signed to a team out of pure merit, a girl who just comes through a tournament and dominates. I want female gamers to be put at the same level as their male counterparts, because I know they are completely capable of doing so.
I don't want their to have to be separate female tournaments for them to showcase their skills. I think it takes away from the entire idea of the competition, as if being a woman is some sort of crutch that doesn't let them compete equally with men, and therefore need special consideration to be able to win a tournament.
I enjoy the fact that you didn't field my question, but I'll humor your post anyways.
Name me one female in the scene right now who is at the same skill level of anyone in code S.
Now name me any number of mid-to-high-masters players with good potential to be code S material. Lets put it this way - I enjoy playing SC2, quite a bit, and attend LANs and other tournaments, some of which are female only, and post decent results. And I want to get better. It's just that I'm currently working a dull 9 to 5 and I'm paying off some student loans from back when I was at college.
Do you ever expect me to get to code S (even if I have the most potential out of any person to play SC2)? Probably not. You can't train like the pros train while working 40 hours a week. It's just not possible. Playing SC2 at a very high level is a job. And usually without team sponsorship there's no way you can quit your job and go pro full time.
I'm all for someone working their way up to the top all by themselves (for example the one redditor who's taking a year off to go pro), but it's naive to think that anyone wanting to better themselves as a player of SC2 would turn down team sponsorship on principle. If you want to get ahead you get ahead by any means possible.
(Also I'm male, just using the above as an example)
I hope you are right about that. I mean, she seemed pretty eager to improve and learn to be better, and I hope she does do well. I already posted much earlier that I support her decision to join Quantic for those exact reasons.
Even in the interview, though, it felt to me like they were drawing unneeded attention to the fact that she was a woman. Most of the questions they asked were in reference to that fact, as if it was a critical part of their decision to sign her, which rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, one of the questions was about how guys would be able to pick up a pro-gamer girl... It was all in good fun, but still...
EDIT: To clarify, I am upset about Quantic's decision to sign her and their motivations for it, not for Flo's decision to join them.
Unfortunately Quantic has to play to their audience, with is currently something like the 16-30 male demographic, so I can't blame them for their reasoning behind their acquisition. I will say, however, that I stopped watching the interview after a couple minutes because it was just way too awkward to watch. But this sort of...inappropriateness (I can't think of a better word) with interviews isn't contained just to female players. You can look at the dreamhack winter finals as an example of the same thing happening to male players. It's something as a community we're coming to understand is not okay, and I'm fairly certain that this type of thing should go away in the future.
And honestly I'm happy whenever anyone gets signed to a major team, male or female. they're getting a chance to pursue a dream of being a pro-gamer. And I think that's pretty cool.
On December 23 2011 07:07 kappadevin wrote: [quote]
Aphrodite is a PRO FEMALE GAMER, signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. The closest relevant comparison to her stream viewership is a PRO MALE GAMER signed to a PRO GAMING TEAM. How would comparing Aphrodite's stream viewership to any other gamer even make the tiniest bit of sense?
Also, Starcraft 2 is a sport, just like every other sport. History has shown that because males play at a higher level in every sport, they recieve more funding and viewers because people want to watch the best of the best play. Why do you think that Starcraft would be any different than the multitude of other sports that have been played since the beginning of time?
You're not quite following. Aphrodite is comparable to FLo because both have similar skill and are on pro gaming teams. We have no need to compare them to pro gamer males because we're not talking about pro gamer males, we're talking about high master males. I'm arguing that Flo had greater revenue potential than the high master males you feel should be chosen over her for Quantic. You can't point to the stream numbers of featured pro gamer males as evidence that high master males have equal revenue potential as Flo.
If you still can't follow, you simply aren't smart, sorry man.
You're the one not following. Flo will get the same amount of veiwers as Aphrodite. Once a "high masters" player signs with a pro team, they become a, guess what, a pro gamer. As soon as someone adds a pro gaming tag to the back of their ID, they will get more viewers on that basis, as they have been put into the spotlight. Now that he is a pro gamer, he would garnish the same amount of views as any other given pro male gamer, which is why I used that as a reference (which ranges from about 300 to 3000 currently on the featured stream list). You can't compare a pro female to a non pro male just like I wouldn't compare a pro gamer to a non pro female.
Um, no. The high master male signed to a pro team doesn't even get featured, bud.
I like how you assume I am a male, without really thinking that through.
Lol funny how after that guy suggested troll you switched to obvious trolling in order to save face from the stupidity of your previous logic .
OI guess it would be tough to comprehend that a woman actually wants to not be spoon fed, right? Players, regardless of gender, should be held to the same standards. That's what my argument is.
So now that you're losing an argument you state your a chick because...?
Let's say for a moment that Doc is right, that she was signed because she will bring in higher ad revenue. That would still mean that Quantic is signing her because she is a woman. They would think that because she is a woman, being of lower skill value would still bring her a high number of viewers.
How is that not insulting to Flo? It's basically Quantic saying that we could have signed anyone but we signed you because we know you are a woman and that will bring us more ad revenue. It isn't like she was coming off the back of some major tournament win, or had been showing consistantly good results in tournaments.
I just feel like all of the arguments supporting this signing are trying to find excuses for the obvious: She was signed because she was a woman, not because she was the best player they could have signed. I want to see a real true girl pro-gamer that gets signed to a team out of pure merit, a girl who just comes through a tournament and dominates. I want female gamers to be put at the same level as their male counterparts, because I know they are completely capable of doing so.
I don't want their to have to be separate female tournaments for them to showcase their skills. I think it takes away from the entire idea of the competition, as if being a woman is some sort of crutch that doesn't let them compete equally with men, and therefore need special consideration to be able to win a tournament.
Every single one of your points can be refuted by two words: female tournaments. You haven't really given any reasons against them except your own personal feelings about what competition should be. Would you argue against female events in chess or snooker, both of which arguably involve less physical dexterity than sc?
It's true that chess is also a male dominated game, and also features female only tournaments. There's a difference though. There's already been a female chess grandmaster, which proves that women can and do compete with men at the highest level, and not only that, but can also beat them. There's never been a female that's won any major tournament in the history of Starcraft, so it's hard to argue that point with you. I do think female only tournaments do have a place in Starcraft, but I don't think the results of those tournaments should be held with too high of a regard until females prove they can take on males too.
EDIT: Refering to Susan Polgar, who earned it by competing directly with males.
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
User was banned for this post.
I agree with your point entirely and I'll happily take my ban for that opinon. Sure she's more marketable than your random high master male player and will thus definetly generate more revenue but I don't care about how marketable players are I just care about how skilled they are. I watch tournaments to see the best players play not the most likeable players or the best looking players. I don't care if they have a vagina or a penis. In my opinion the only deciding factor should be their skill. But it's not really the teams fault because they are a buissness and have to do what generates the most money for them. It's obviously we the people that prefers eye candy infront of actual skill and that's really sad. If the audience put pure skill in front of their personality and gender then the most skilled people would also be the most marketable people but that's obviously not the case.
So what if she was recruited because she's a woman? A lot of people will watch her play and she'll draw attention to the team/sponsors.
Let's say a team recruited day9/tasteless to play as a 2on2 team. Maybe they wouldn't be top tier, but there is not a single starcraft fan that wouldn't skip their own wedding to watch them play.
On December 23 2011 09:35 VoirDire wrote: So what if she was recruited because she's a woman? A lot of people will watch her play and she'll draw attention to the team/sponsors.
Let's say a team recruited day9/tasteless to play as a 2on2 team. Maybe they wouldn't be top tier, but there is not a single starcraft fan that wouldn't skip their own wedding to watch them play.
But don't you find it disappointing that people will watch her play just because she's a woman? It boils down to being people that disappoints me not the actual team or sponsors.
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
User was banned for this post.
I agree with your point entirely and I'll happily take my ban for that opinon. Sure she's more marketable than your random high master male player and will thus definetly generate more revenue but I don't care about how marketable players are I just care about how skilled they are. I watch tournaments to see the best players play not the most likeable players or the best looking players. I don't care if they have a vagina or a penis. In my opinion the only deciding factor should be their skill. But it's not really the teams fault because they are a buissness and have to do what generates the most money for them. It's obviously we the people that prefers eye candy infront of actual skill and that's really sad. If the audience put pure skill in front of their personality and gender then the most skilled people would also be the most marketable people but that's obviously not the case.
Now you felt important didn't you? See you in a week
On December 23 2011 09:35 VoirDire wrote: So what if she was recruited because she's a woman? A lot of people will watch her play and she'll draw attention to the team/sponsors.
Let's say a team recruited day9/tasteless to play as a 2on2 team. Maybe they wouldn't be top tier, but there is not a single starcraft fan that wouldn't skip their own wedding to watch them play.
But don't you find it disappointing that people will watch her play just because she's a woman? It boils down to being people that disappoints me not the actual team or sponsors.
This is why most women that want to be taken seriously don't make their gender public because it is inevitable that their gender will play a factor in whether or not people enjoy their play.
On December 22 2011 21:33 Paladia wrote: While I think the pickup of SaSe and Naniwa is great for Quantic, as they are extremely good and dedicated player. I have to question where they are heading when they pick-up players such as Destiny and especially Flo. Players not known for any type of skill but rather for some marketing hype.
How will you do in the team leagues with just two good players?
ask EG what their opinion on marketing is. only teams like quantic seem to get shit because of marketing, its so weird
Well, for the record, I do not like EG at all. I consider their Managing Director a bully and one of the worst people in esports. The general attitude of both the management and some of the players is also far below what I would consider acceptable.
The management of Quantic is in my opinion much better and much more friendly. I'd actually consider playing for them myself if I was a pro. I think it is fine that they pick up some of these "hype" players as well, I just hope they don't go overboard as right now they only have two really solid players.
On December 22 2011 09:27 WhiteraCares wrote: If only I had a vagina I'd be in a sweet team aswell by now.
User was banned for this post.
I agree with your point entirely and I'll happily take my ban for that opinon. Sure she's more marketable than your random high master male player and will thus definetly generate more revenue but I don't care about how marketable players are I just care about how skilled they are. I watch tournaments to see the best players play not the most likeable players or the best looking players. I don't care if they have a vagina or a penis. In my opinion the only deciding factor should be their skill. But it's not really the teams fault because they are a buissness and have to do what generates the most money for them. It's obviously we the people that prefers eye candy infront of actual skill and that's really sad. If the audience put pure skill in front of their personality and gender then the most skilled people would also be the most marketable people but that's obviously not the case.
Now you felt important didn't you? See you in a week
Not sure what you're trying to say here? Mind explaining what you mean or at least add anything to the topic at hand with your response so we can have an actual discussion on this forum? Or do you simply like to make some wisecrack remarks and then leave?
It's not like quantic has a set number of slots and she's occupying one of them instead of another "more deserving" player, like a lot of people are seem to think.
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Isn't this statement kind of ironic because you frequently criticize the way game companies market and sell their games? I am criticizing how Quantic market and sells their newest player.
On December 23 2011 09:35 VoirDire wrote: So what if she was recruited because she's a woman? A lot of people will watch her play and she'll draw attention to the team/sponsors.
Let's say a team recruited day9/tasteless to play as a 2on2 team. Maybe they wouldn't be top tier, but there is not a single starcraft fan that wouldn't skip their own wedding to watch them play.
But don't you find it disappointing that people will watch her play just because she's a woman? It boils down to being people that disappoints me not the actual team or sponsors.
Not in the slightest. Were you also disappointed when boxer was invited to a bunch of foreign tournaments instead of higher ranked koreans? Or that day9 and tasteless was invited to HDH and TeamLiquid SC2 Invitational 2? Or that players of the hosting nationality are more likely to be invited to LANs?
On December 23 2011 09:35 VoirDire wrote: So what if she was recruited because she's a woman? A lot of people will watch her play and she'll draw attention to the team/sponsors.
Let's say a team recruited day9/tasteless to play as a 2on2 team. Maybe they wouldn't be top tier, but there is not a single starcraft fan that wouldn't skip their own wedding to watch them play.
But don't you find it disappointing that people will watch her play just because she's a woman? It boils down to being people that disappoints me not the actual team or sponsors.
I don't find it any more disappointing than people preferring to look at a pretty actress over one who is really good at acting but has no physical appeal. It seems pretty natural. While a person's ability to micro well might draw you to their stream, it's not what's going to draw your eyes to the logos plastered on their t-shirts on stage or at an event. Gamers are just people being paid to draw attention to their sponsors. Whether they do that through great looks, a shining personality, or inspiring gameplay, I think they're all equally qualified for the job they're hired to do. This goes for both guys and girls, of course.
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Isn't it your entire job to comment on what players do right and wrong (casting), even though you don't have much of an idea on how to play yourself?
While it is true that to run something that depends on sponsors you need hype and many people here fail to realize that, I don't think you should be so fast on judging people who have opinions about it. A better way to go about it is use your own experience and comment on how good or bad you consider this move to be from your own perspective. It is always better to give a personal opinion instead of just bash the opinions of others.
Let's not forget that SC2 is a business, and teams are entitled to signing players based on whatever criteria they choose, including publicity. It's often the same in pro sports, where an underachieving athlete gets a disproportionate amount of attention/$$$ because of their looks or their identity (Anna Kournikova for example, or Tiger Woods who still draws huge TV ratings despite being virtually irrelevant in the PGA).
I also don't understand why anyone would oppose the inclusion of females, even if it means signing an inferior player. As an SC2 fan, I want the game to grow, and females need role models to keep getting better and narrowing the gap. This isn't the 50s anymore, we should encourage diversity...
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Never thought I'd be agreeing with TotalBiscuit about anything besides the fact that Magicka is a blast. Frankly, success is about entertainment. Sure we are all jealous that she gets the shot we don't. Happens. Life's not fair.
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Isn't it your entire job to comment on what players do right and wrong (casting), even though you don't have much of an idea on how to play yourself?
It seems like running a business is not the only thing you have absolutely no idea about. My job is another.
While it is true that to run something that depends on sponsors you need hype and many people here fail to realize that, I don't think you should be so fast on judging people who have opinions about it. A better way to go about it is use your own experience and comment on how good or bad you consider this move to be from your own perspective. It is always better to give a personal opinion instead of just bash the opinions of others.
Nah I tend to find that pointing and laughing at stupid opinions is a pretty good idea when I don't want to waste my time covering ground that others have already tread in this thread. What has been worthwhile to say has been said, no need to repeat or reiterate it. Some people are too stupid to get it and no amount of posting will convince them so why waste the time?
On December 23 2011 11:04 TotalBiscuit wrote: Nah I tend to find that pointing and laughing at stupid opinions is a pretty good idea when I don't want to waste my time covering ground that others have already tread in this thread. What has been worthwhile to say has been said, no need to repeat or reiterate it. Some people are too stupid to get it and no amount of posting will convince them so why waste the time?
Then why bother even making a post? Just to chime in and show off how smug you are?
It's pretty obvious they recruited a female player for publicity. It is what it is and the reactions varied.
Good luck. Never heard of her before but then again I don't care/know much about the US sc2 scene. If she quit school for sc2, then at least she has the right attitude going into this. It's practice practice practice.
Finally she is signed to a team so that she can travel around and show people that she deserves all the attention and respect she gets. Looking forward to her games
Very humble, very mature. I'm stunned she's only 18.
If any female in the foreign community is going to move forward, I believe it to be Flo. She seems like she has reasonably thick skin which is what will help her continue.
I feel her situation is the polar opposite of Aphrodite. Aside from the fact that she lives in America. She doesn't live in a team house, she doesn't have a professional boyfriend who has been a successful pro gamer since 03.
I'm probably the hardest person to gain respect from but after this video she is on another level. She didn't reiterate the fact that Rainbow and Aphrodite watched all of her games and outright sniped her. She was proud of the 2nd place accomplishment, and looks moves forward with optimism.
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Isn't it your entire job to comment on what players do right and wrong (casting), even though you don't have much of an idea on how to play yourself?
It seems like running a business is not the only thing you have absolutely no idea about. My job is another.
While it is true that to run something that depends on sponsors you need hype and many people here fail to realize that, I don't think you should be so fast on judging people who have opinions about it. A better way to go about it is use your own experience and comment on how good or bad you consider this move to be from your own perspective. It is always better to give a personal opinion instead of just bash the opinions of others.
Nah I tend to find that pointing and laughing at stupid opinions is a pretty good idea when I don't want to waste my time covering ground that others have already tread in this thread. What has been worthwhile to say has been said, no need to repeat or reiterate it. Some people are too stupid to get it and no amount of posting will convince them so why waste the time?
How can you be so epic with each things you write TB ? HOW ? Maybe it's the hat.
Anyway i don't mind they take a "lesser player" (still she's better than maybe 95%percent of people who wrote in this thread) if she's planning to improve. Hope to see her in big tournaments or team leagues battle.
EDIT :
On December 23 2011 17:26 Reasonable wrote: She's surprisingly cute for a progamer. I hope she does well. Quantic team must be very happy.
A lot of woman programmer were cute. There is a thread on TL i think about that. Just look at TossGirl for exemple (the most famous).
She may have gotten on the team over another skilled player by simply being a woman- not saying that's why she did but I'm addressing the people who think that is why, and but who cares anyway it takes skill to win tourneys and that's all that matters.
She is a high masters/gm player, she got signed and you didnt the same reason destiny got signed, popularity. She got popular cos she was Born with a vagina, destiny cos he was born with a fuck-you attitude, theres really not such a big difference. Sorry if some words came out wrong, im terrible with typing on the phone .
Haha glad to see TB calling it like it is. There are many occassions on the TL forums where the stupidity of people's opinions needs to be called out. My previous argument with kappadavid (or whatever his/her name was) in this thread is a prime example.
All of this is clearly IMO, even though I'm stating it like facts.
So women can't play games?
Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you).
1.) Women can't play games.
Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games.
2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games!
Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player.
3.) What about other games/sports?
Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games.
In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players.
4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo?
Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that).
5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then?
The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again.
6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments.
Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries.
7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming?
In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:-
ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players. DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though. OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many.
Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies.
Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future.
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Isn't it your entire job to comment on what players do right and wrong (casting), even though you don't have much of an idea on how to play yourself?
It seems like running a business is not the only thing you have absolutely no idea about. My job is another.
While it is true that to run something that depends on sponsors you need hype and many people here fail to realize that, I don't think you should be so fast on judging people who have opinions about it. A better way to go about it is use your own experience and comment on how good or bad you consider this move to be from your own perspective. It is always better to give a personal opinion instead of just bash the opinions of others.
Nah I tend to find that pointing and laughing at stupid opinions is a pretty good idea when I don't want to waste my time covering ground that others have already tread in this thread. What has been worthwhile to say has been said, no need to repeat or reiterate it. Some people are too stupid to get it and no amount of posting will convince them so why waste the time?
As you seem to be clueless about my business-sense. I've heard you in every game comment on what a player does right or wrong. When you do it, it is fine, but when another person does it, he is clueless?
If you don't want to waste your time, then why waste it on being hostile towards everyone else? Seems like you just want to talk people down.
All these arguments will cease when Flo posts results. There's no need to get workup over anything. Quantic made a mistake? unlikely. It's a win-win for them. All you guys just bitter, it's like when Justin Bieber got her big gigs and people hating. Though I apologize for comparing Flo with her.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind.
'twas an honest question, I wasn't there when he went over. First series I recall seeing is him losing 1-2 to Trap in the Gom Classic, and then he was part of that list of players that included Tossgirl and the old legends (Boxer, Yellow, Reach, etc.) whom we always looked for in the offline prelims but kept losing in the first round.
Anyway, why do you believe there's "no question" that he was better than those players? His TLPD entry gives him an 8-20 record, Flying is 85-83 (over 50%), hyvaa is 156-151 (over 50%) and Juni is 99-120. And they've played some high calibre players too.
Hell, Pokju was 38-38.
Unfortunately, I never really followed the players who didn't have televised matches (because, well, they didn't have televised matches) so I really don't have any way to measure his performance on a fair metric. Given that you are apparently more knowledgeable than I, can you explain to me where your certainty comes from?
Okay: the only one I'm absolutely certain Idra was better than is Juni. Juni is (arguably) the worst A-team Zerg in several years. While he's won some games, he's a poor enough player that I assume he's an auto-loss for KHAN whenever he comes out. The defining moment for me was a playoff game (08-09 season) vs. Hwasin which went down like this:
Hwasin bunker-rushed, but placed the bunker too far away from the hatchery and didn't noticed till it was complete. Juni squashed the bunker and countered to Hwasin's nat. Hwasin hadn't yet expanded: Juni then proceeded to lose the game. (Here's the VOD.) I suppose you could say that's actually a lot like some of idra's blunders that we've seen, but my point is that Juni's still good enough that he gets A-team games regularly (to the despair of KHAN fans).
hyvaa came to mind because he's a player very like Idra in style, in that he's dangerous in a macro game. hyvaa's early-game is notoriously weak, while he's nearly brilliant if you let him get his Hive tech up. His first games were a series of ZvPs which he ended up playing almost like ZvT: delay, delay, delay, defiler-lurker-ling.
Flying... Flying started hot but has never particularly impressed me apart from occasional PvZ brilliance.
I'm not saying those were great A-teamers, but their results are evidently superior to Idra's. You seem to be comparing their skills to those of other A-teamers, but I get the impression you're using a different metric for Idra. And Juni has wins against Effort, Bisu and Flash. Hyvaa has wins against Jaedong, Flash, Leta, Fantasy and other noteworthy players. Flying has won against Leta and Sea. Idra has dominated foreigner events and taken a series off ACE's GoRush. Otherwise the best players he's beaten are Jaehoon, Shuttle and, well, Flying. In series that he lost.
On December 23 2011 00:26 VGhost wrote:As for your stats: Flying is 54-44 offline (qualifiers and Dream League), but in the televised leagues he's 23-35, not quite 40%. hyvaa's similar: 80-56 in offlines, 70-89 in the regular leagues. Juni's 56-62 offline, 31-50 in regular leagues.
Yes: idra's record is worse than those. 6-16 offline, 2-4 in the one standard event (GOM). But he was good enough to take games off pros – Shuttle, Jaehoon – who are now A-team players. I believe that while he may have gotten some "favoritism" to actually make the team, in the end he was held back: as a "foreigner" and an "older player", his team wouldn't want to take the risk of playing idra enough to truly develop him as a Korean league player. This was compounded by the fact he was with eSTRO, which was struggling anyway and then badly hurt by the betting scandal (and folded at the end of the season). Even though management took the risk of bringing in a foreign player, they had to show results. If there were a stronger team that had picked up foreign players who stayed for a while, then we might have seen them play.
Obviously he had a major disadvantage in not being able to speak the language, that probably takes away a lot of the benefits of playing in a team house. One thing that would really help illuminate this subject would be knowing how long it typically takes for a b-teamer to break through, if they ever do. I don't suppose you know where we could get those?
Incidentally, didn't I play against you in an absolutely atrocious 2v2 in SC2GG's Star Cup a year or two ago? I seem to recall your ID.
Yes, yes you did. ^^
Anyway, and apologies for confusing my basic argument with all the statistical clutter, is that there are Korean pro still playing and playing regularly despite demonstrating that they are No Good At Starcraft on a professional level. Idra may have gotten his license directly from a team without winning Courage (though the existence of the system indicates others have too), but it seems to me *after* that he was disfavored due to being a foreigner. How much of that is simply a result of eSTRO chaos, how much it actually reflects how good he was, and how much was foreigner bias, I don't know. Sure, his best win was either taking a game from Shuttle or beating (ACE, out-of-form, shaky) GoRush, but judging by that prelim (beat GoRush, 1-2 against Jaehoon who was about to have a breakout year) he had improved significantly: I think if given more opportunity that would have shown up sooner and better.
I mean obviously it's all hypothetical at this point but I think he was competitive for what he was able to do. I'm not claiming he would have been even Classic or sKyHigh, but compared to players like Ssak or Barracks it's hard to say he was any worse (except wrt attitude, which may have been the biggest hindrance – eg "talent toi have", TSL ragequit, etc.)
Sexism will always have it's place in ESPORTS. Few will admit it, but Flo and Eve are prime examples. They didn't get accepted because of their talent, they got accepted solely based on their gender/looks. A male with the same "skill" as them would NEVER have the same opportunity. Teams are choosing females for publicity and fame, not for competition. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Flo and Eve are bronze scrubs who got picked out of nowhere, They do in fact have some degree in skill. But a male with the same degree in skill would never get on these high level competitive teams.
Flo is a pretty good player, she is arguably better than her competition (that she would find in mlg early open brackets) and as far as I know she had less time to play as they did because of school. With school out of the way I think you guys are seriously misjudging how good Flo can be.
On December 22 2011 12:53 BloodThirsty wrote: Listen to everyone rippin people in here. Here are the facts:
Only making the name Quantic Gaming more relevant. If you (the one's who hate this move) truly want something to be done about it the best thing you can do is to IGNORE this whole post and anything to do with this. Otherwise all the hating is doing is good for Quantic.
Sure I may jealous and to some degree a hater of this move but in no way am I stupid when it comes to business. This thread alone shows how smart of a move for the brand and business of Quantic gaming this was. Hate or love it you are still talking about it.
completely agree with your business sentiment, however Idra is a bad example because you are picking one of the most skilled players in the game so it is not a relevant example to female gamers being signed who are not good.
Actually, now that I think about it, would Idra have been picked up by eSTRO/CJ Entus if he had been a Korean?
idra almost certainly would have been picked up, at least as a practice partner/b-teamer. IMO there's no question that he was better even than several people who have gotten televised games regularly: Flying, hyvaa, Juni, come to mind.
'twas an honest question, I wasn't there when he went over. First series I recall seeing is him losing 1-2 to Trap in the Gom Classic, and then he was part of that list of players that included Tossgirl and the old legends (Boxer, Yellow, Reach, etc.) whom we always looked for in the offline prelims but kept losing in the first round.
Anyway, why do you believe there's "no question" that he was better than those players? His TLPD entry gives him an 8-20 record, Flying is 85-83 (over 50%), hyvaa is 156-151 (over 50%) and Juni is 99-120. And they've played some high calibre players too.
Hell, Pokju was 38-38.
Unfortunately, I never really followed the players who didn't have televised matches (because, well, they didn't have televised matches) so I really don't have any way to measure his performance on a fair metric. Given that you are apparently more knowledgeable than I, can you explain to me where your certainty comes from?
Okay: the only one I'm absolutely certain Idra was better than is Juni. Juni is (arguably) the worst A-team Zerg in several years. While he's won some games, he's a poor enough player that I assume he's an auto-loss for KHAN whenever he comes out. The defining moment for me was a playoff game (08-09 season) vs. Hwasin which went down like this:
Hwasin bunker-rushed, but placed the bunker too far away from the hatchery and didn't noticed till it was complete. Juni squashed the bunker and countered to Hwasin's nat. Hwasin hadn't yet expanded: Juni then proceeded to lose the game. (Here's the VOD.) I suppose you could say that's actually a lot like some of idra's blunders that we've seen, but my point is that Juni's still good enough that he gets A-team games regularly (to the despair of KHAN fans).
hyvaa came to mind because he's a player very like Idra in style, in that he's dangerous in a macro game. hyvaa's early-game is notoriously weak, while he's nearly brilliant if you let him get his Hive tech up. His first games were a series of ZvPs which he ended up playing almost like ZvT: delay, delay, delay, defiler-lurker-ling.
Flying... Flying started hot but has never particularly impressed me apart from occasional PvZ brilliance.
I'm not saying those were great A-teamers, but their results are evidently superior to Idra's. You seem to be comparing their skills to those of other A-teamers, but I get the impression you're using a different metric for Idra. And Juni has wins against Effort, Bisu and Flash. Hyvaa has wins against Jaedong, Flash, Leta, Fantasy and other noteworthy players. Flying has won against Leta and Sea. Idra has dominated foreigner events and taken a series off ACE's GoRush. Otherwise the best players he's beaten are Jaehoon, Shuttle and, well, Flying. In series that he lost.
On December 23 2011 00:26 VGhost wrote:As for your stats: Flying is 54-44 offline (qualifiers and Dream League), but in the televised leagues he's 23-35, not quite 40%. hyvaa's similar: 80-56 in offlines, 70-89 in the regular leagues. Juni's 56-62 offline, 31-50 in regular leagues.
Yes: idra's record is worse than those. 6-16 offline, 2-4 in the one standard event (GOM). But he was good enough to take games off pros – Shuttle, Jaehoon – who are now A-team players. I believe that while he may have gotten some "favoritism" to actually make the team, in the end he was held back: as a "foreigner" and an "older player", his team wouldn't want to take the risk of playing idra enough to truly develop him as a Korean league player. This was compounded by the fact he was with eSTRO, which was struggling anyway and then badly hurt by the betting scandal (and folded at the end of the season). Even though management took the risk of bringing in a foreign player, they had to show results. If there were a stronger team that had picked up foreign players who stayed for a while, then we might have seen them play.
Obviously he had a major disadvantage in not being able to speak the language, that probably takes away a lot of the benefits of playing in a team house. One thing that would really help illuminate this subject would be knowing how long it typically takes for a b-teamer to break through, if they ever do. I don't suppose you know where we could get those?
Incidentally, didn't I play against you in an absolutely atrocious 2v2 in SC2GG's Star Cup a year or two ago? I seem to recall your ID.
Yes, yes you did. ^^
Anyway, and apologies for confusing my basic argument with all the statistical clutter, is that there are Korean pro still playing and playing regularly despite demonstrating that they are No Good At Starcraft on a professional level. Idra may have gotten his license directly from a team without winning Courage (though the existence of the system indicates others have too), but it seems to me *after* that he was disfavored due to being a foreigner. How much of that is simply a result of eSTRO chaos, how much it actually reflects how good he was, and how much was foreigner bias, I don't know. Sure, his best win was either taking a game from Shuttle or beating (ACE, out-of-form, shaky) GoRush, but judging by that prelim (beat GoRush, 1-2 against Jaehoon who was about to have a breakout year) he had improved significantly: I think if given more opportunity that would have shown up sooner and better.
I mean obviously it's all hypothetical at this point but I think he was competitive for what he was able to do. I'm not claiming he would have been even Classic or sKyHigh, but compared to players like Ssak or Barracks it's hard to say he was any worse (except wrt attitude, which may have been the biggest hindrance – eg "talent toi have", TSL ragequit, etc.)
Anything which draws new fans to the game, and widens the audience base for Starcraft, is a good thing. Whether it's Day[9] doing the dailies, Destiny being Destiny, Totalbiscuit streaming his losses in silver or all the pros streaming their wins in GM; each of them offers something different, and each of them draws fans. That widens the audience for e-sports, which draws more advertising, which means more money circulating through prize pools and salaries, which means more tournaments and better tournaments and more players who can afford to go pro because there's money enough in the industry to support them.
By virtue of her skill, personality and gender, Flo can offer something different, and potentially help e-sports to grow. If you're a fan of starcraft2, you ought to be excited about that.
Personally, I can't wait to see destiny and flo streaming practice games with one another. I just hope he takes it easy with the sarcastic, sexist jokes. She's still awfully young!
On December 23 2011 03:44 kappadevin wrote: There are hundreds of more talented male gamers who are frothing at the mouth for the opportunity to join a pro-gaming team.
And not one of them has the revenue potential for Quantic that Flo does nor can they join female-only leagues. So yea, if you're gonna make the argument that players should be recruited based on skill only, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
Alright. Lets say you and a woman both apply for the same job. We'll say you both have completely identical qualifications for this position, aside from your gender differences. Now we'll say that she gets hired over you for no given reason aside from the fact that she is a woman.
Is that fair to you? Are you satisfied knowing you lost your shot at a job just because she is of the opposite gender? How is that not sexism?
It's not the same job ffs. As a woman she has the oppertunity to compete at women only tournaments/leagues asides from competing at every other event. So she brings more exposure.
Also on your point of revenue potential: There has been no evidence that female gamers or even female only leagues bring in more revenue. In fact, the DIVINA tournament had less sponsors and a far smaller viewing base than a slow day at the GSL. So if you are going to make the argument that players should be recruited based on gender, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case .
Even if the DIVINA Tournament has less viewers than a slow day of gsl (which sounds quite good to me lol) it may be still worth it? I don't really follow the female scene but as far as I know she is a top contender for every female tournament she plays in. Unless you poach a code a+ player or a top level foreigner I doubt there are any players who would bring more exposure.
I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...
It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\
On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote: I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...
It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\
Might as well remove every GSL seed as well then right? Wonder how much foreigners would be left.
On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote: I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...
It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\
How do you know 1 to 2 women? Isn't there a clear distinction between the two? Shouldn't it easy to keep track of the exact number?
On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote: I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...
It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\
Personally I think that it is a stunt a lot of the time. But this is different. Flo is actually pretty damn good and I can't to see where this goes.
On December 23 2011 23:00 Pumplekin wrote: All of this is clearly IMO, even though I'm stating it like facts.
So women can't play games?
Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you).
1.) Women can't play games.
Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games.
2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games!
Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player.
3.) What about other games/sports?
Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games.
In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players.
4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo?
Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that).
5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then?
The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again.
6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments.
Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries.
7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming?
In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:-
ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players. DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though. OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many.
Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies.
Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future.
+1
Great post. I didn't know where to start in adding to this conversation but now that I've read your thoughtful summation of the recipe for success and of Flo's potential, I don't have to.
How is this any different from companies sponsoring female sports teams? Flo is likely to do very well in any future female only tournaments and will thus give quantic exposure, making it worth their while. What is the problem with this?
all this hostility that arises everytime it involves women is hurting esports. And no, im not just throwing that phrase around nonsensically, this REALLY IS HURTING ESPORTS.
Why some people are butt hurt about this is beyond me. Quantic has the right to recruit whoever the hell they want and it is none of your business to tell them what to do. Also, it is your close-minded attitude and bigotry against female gamers that not only hold back sc2 but e-sport in general.
Not sure but i think this is clearly a publicity stunt.Quantic want to get more recognition since they are still not a well-establised team as of yet.Anyways,congrats to Flo
Please, we're unfortunately in an age of socialism where anyone who can garner sympathy from an activist court by playing the role of a victim can get away with getting pretty much anything they want within "reason". People have always gone where the money is, there is nothing more predictable than that. That's why it doesn't surprise me that these organizations in the Americas and EU etc are recruiting popular players *because* they are popular in the hopes that they have a larger viewer and fan following and can gradually increase their sponsorship/s etc.
Nothing against quantic, nothing against sponsors and esports, just this is really old news to me by now so much so that I barely get past the home TL page. She's almost attractive (while we have a largely male audience), better statistically speaking than 97% of players in her region if she is masters(I've never understood how people are so GD bad at sports and games, I've played under 500 games and have been masters forever while having a job, a family, and 12+ credits, but I'm thankful for those people because there's no grand master league without bronze), and she streams and gets captured on camera at events for these reasons.
All in all, a smart pick up, good luck to her and the organizations involved, hope things go well, but quite honestly I really don't care.
On December 24 2011 15:50 chipman wrote: Please, we're unfortunately in an age of socialism where anyone who can garner sympathy from an activist court by playing the role of a victim can get away with getting pretty much anything they want within "reason". People have always gone where the money is, there is nothing more predictable than that. That's why it doesn't surprise me that these organizations in the Americas and EU etc are recruiting popular players *because* they are popular in the hopes that they have a larger viewer and fan following and can gradually increase their sponsorship/s etc.
Nothing against quantic, nothing against sponsors and esports, just this is really old news to me by now so much so that I barely get past the home TL page. She's almost attractive (while we have a largely male audience), better statistically speaking than 97% of players in her region if she is masters(I've never understood how people are so GD bad at sports and games, I've played under 500 games and have been masters forever while having a job, a family, and 12+ credits, but I'm thankful for those people because there's no grand master league without bronze), and she streams and gets captured on camera at events for these reasons.
All in all, a smart pick up, good luck to her and the organizations involved, hope things go well, but quite honestly I really don't care.
you sure spent a lot of time writing this post for someone who doesnt care.
The main source of people's antaginism/skepticism is, imo, mainly due to the fact that this player regardless of her sex has no actual notable accomplishments. So she is either an investment by QiM in hopes that her skill will sky rocket. Or simply a publicity stunt. I hope its the former but I'd bet on the latter ;o. No real disrespect intended. And yeah unless they plan on making sexual segration in esports a mainstream thing, her current accomplishments are complete worthless in my eyes. But again, I stress the investment possibility; In 6 months for better or for worse her tournament success (or absence of) will/should shut down all discussion from this thread.
PS: Yes, she was recruited uniquely because she is female, but if she can grow into an actual threat to the top tier male players- the marketting possibilities are endless.
And some of you are either transexuals in disguise or just way too obsessed with the idea of girls starting to like gaming ;o. (I know some do but must don't, just live with it)
Edit: It says on the tl.net wiki that her prize for winning 1st in 1 of the female events was a 2lbs. chocolate bar? Was this an April Fool's joke that they forgot to remove or the real thing? In any case it made me laugh xd.
On December 22 2011 20:28 layerz wrote: If the women "progamers" starts bitching about needing their own girl tournaments i'm just going to cry and spit on them just like all the cs 1.6 fans did on the cs 1.6 women. It's a freaking game there is no physical advantage for the men except them being smarter. So girls either join the normal tournaments that is open for everyone or quit.
You're kidding right? This is a troll? No one really thinks this? D:
The 1.6 community did consider female teams as ridicule. The top worldwide female team was very average and what was back in the days mid/low-tier CALmain caliber. I agree that there are no physical advantages for men in gaming. Girls, by having their own tournaments, simply don't have to put the effort and dedication and are granted easy money because of gender. Equality is a one-sided fight my friends But that's eSports. Until people ignore every female event there will still be some, because sponsors are attracted by the attention and viewership they get. Actually in CS a lot of them (the "top" female players) got very cocky and would talk a lot of shit about how they made more money than us mid-tier players did during arguments, when any of us would stomp them easily in-game.
But I cant blame Quantic for this, good business move. Real sports teams have mascots too! GL to flo, I can't blame her either for doing this. Neither party is to blame, the market (=the consumers) dictate what sells, so look in the mirror before hating on them.
On December 23 2011 23:00 Pumplekin wrote: All of this is clearly IMO, even though I'm stating it like facts.
So women can't play games?
Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you).
1.) Women can't play games.
Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games.
2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games!
Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player.
3.) What about other games/sports?
Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games.
In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players.
4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo?
Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that).
5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then?
The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again.
6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments.
Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries.
7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming?
In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:-
ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players. DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though. OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many.
Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies.
Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future.
I see what you are saying and not that i dont think that women cant play games but 1) WoW PvP is the easiest "esport" possible so i my mind that doesn't count for anything man or woman. 2) sorry she is not 0.1% of players (I'm not counting people who only play custom games and were placed in bronze 8 months ago), if she was she would be GM and have won more then just a single womens only tournament. 3) i disagree that she got signed because she is a woman despite not having seen her play. Pro houses aren't for the best they are for the people who the recruiters see have potential and in the BW houses they were in a house for at least 3 months before you should have made any comment about their skill. Or maybe she was, then again unlike most people I'm not as shallow as a knife. 4) there are moure tournaments then just the ones with 100,000 plus prize pools. Playhem daily anyone? 5) Your point number 7 is the things that infuriates me the most when woman talk about the equality between men a women. You generalize every woman of the tiny percentage of females you have interacted with. And saying women don't understand games because my wife who doesn't play this specific game doesn't understand why i get emotional and may or may not be trying to just comfort you because SHE IS YOUR WIFE. 6) Also what is mainstream acceptability and why does it matter? I'm 100% sure that if you were to ask all 7 billion people on the planet more then 3.5 billion would tell you they are a waste of time. 7) Also are you saying that all women don't like intellectual challenges that may or may not come from video you are wrong on so many levels its disgusting.
/rant If a woman wants to do something she can fucking do it this isn't the medieval ages when woman were baby factories. If a woman wants to play a game she can do it, but most of them don't. Why? They don't want to. Because they have it right going to school getting a job and making money is more important then playing games, going out doing social things are more important then playing games, and meeting that special someone and completing the only goal in life (pass on your successful genetic code to future generations) is more important then playing games.But if they put all that aside then they have as much of a chance as anyone. /rant
Hilariously enough I've spend 90% of my time playing video games because I've spent 90% of my life playing video games, what has that brought me nothing but terrible social skills,no money, and good hand eye coordination. And I'm spending my time playing SC2 to try to go pro eventually because I have nothing else going for me.
I was waiting for her to get picked up by an actual team. I guess it was only a matter of time considering all the other signings (make of it what you will).
This one actually makes sense once you think about it. Flo is easiest one of the most approachable women on the circuit and regularly competes with the boys. It's a good business decision on Quantic's part. More power to them.
On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote: I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...
It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\
Instead of going off the deep-end, where are these so-called women who are in GM on EU that beat pros constantly on ladder? If no one knows them. No one knows them.
Seems pretty far-fetched to me. It wreaks of Zia-ism.
Ladder games can only tell you so much about one's potential and even then you have to actually compete in tournaments to get yourself out there. If I give you the benefit of the doubt and these women you describe are what you say they are then perhaps they have other ambitions and wish to do something else. Perhaps ladder is more than enough for them.
I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
people slagging her off, fact is she is ranked higher than destiny(as well as other males on pro teams) on ladder. likely her and destiny were recruited taking into account their marketability. it is quantics money they can sign whoever they like
and how is it bad for esports? more females leads to more interest from females and males, leads to more female tournaments leads to a whole new market and more income/revenue coming into the system. a sport like tennis for example would make way less money if there were only unisex tournaments
On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote: I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...
It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\
I've also seen some games by female players where they're beating well known male pro gamers, but they aren't quite good enough to join a team by male player standards. It's a pretty funny situation because the best female players do not advertise their gender, so the female hunting teams won't find them, and the big pro teams do not sign "not quite good enough" male players who are secretly female. Therefore the team most likely to sign a great female player is some small start up team who happened to pick someone they actually presumed was a male.
On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote: I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...
It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\
I've also seen some games by female players where they're beating well known male pro gamers, but they aren't quite good enough to join a team by male player standards. It's a pretty funny situation because the best female players do not advertise their gender, so the female hunting teams won't find them, and the big pro teams do not sign "not quite good enough" male players who are secretly female. Therefore the team most likely to sign a great female player is some small start up team who happened to pick someone they actually presumed was a male.
If these female GM players are out there beating pros regularly, and aren't willing to reveal themselves, it's understandable, as consider the first thing people question when one gets picked up is their ability, which is fair enough as normally when a player gets picked up they've achieved something decent, but I imagine for these GM players you speak about, if I were one I'd want to be picked up on my own merits as a player and not just for being female, I imagine by now we'd have heard of them if the community was a little more congratulatory.
On December 23 2011 03:43 Trizzen wrote: Wow, I can't beleive the ammount of terrible posters here. Terrible posters or secretly members of Quantic Gaming that can't accept the fact that Quantic Gaming picked up a female with a passion for playing Starcraft II to play for their roster. It must be a frustrating as hell that Flo is blessed with good looks aswell and can play the game well. What the hell is wrong with you people? Go make a damned blog about how females have no place in gaming communities somewhere else. I don't get all this negativity.
Go out, get some fresh air or something.
Lol, look at who's white-knighting! Why don't all high masters males with passion all get sponsored like this? If Quantic doesn't sponsor every high masters male with a passion im going to lose ALOT of respect for them as a company and a team.
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
I think most of the hate are butthurt guys who think she got this spot simply because shes female.
On December 23 2011 03:43 Trizzen wrote: Wow, I can't beleive the ammount of terrible posters here. Terrible posters or secretly members of Quantic Gaming that can't accept the fact that Quantic Gaming picked up a female with a passion for playing Starcraft II to play for their roster. It must be a frustrating as hell that Flo is blessed with good looks aswell and can play the game well. What the hell is wrong with you people? Go make a damned blog about how females have no place in gaming communities somewhere else. I don't get all this negativity.
Go out, get some fresh air or something.
Lol, look at who's white-knighting! Why don't all high masters males with passion all get sponsored like this? If Quantic doesn't sponsor every high masters male with a passion im going to lose ALOT of respect for them as a company and a team.
Teams don't "owe" anyone a sponsorship. What twisted logic is that, really? Oh look, some company hired a person. Is everyone else entitled to the same job? Do we demand the company to go on and hire everyone else on the planet with the same qualification, or they'll loose all respect? Maybe they don't like your face. Still, there is one vacant position on offer, and by definition it can only be filled with one person- it's their decision who to hire.
This is Huge for the pro gaming community, but even more huge for Quantic. After breaking up with IM they clearly were the worse team, and losing popularity. Destiny gave them a lot of recognition and same with Naniwa, now picking up a girl is just what they need. She's not amazing, but who knows maybe with a lot of practice with the quantic guys, she can start taking qualifiers or online cups.
On December 23 2011 23:00 Pumplekin wrote: All of this is clearly IMO, even though I'm stating it like facts.
So women can't play games?
Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you).
1.) Women can't play games.
Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games.
2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games!
Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player.
3.) What about other games/sports?
Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games.
In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players.
4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo?
Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that).
5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then?
The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again.
6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments.
Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries.
7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming?
In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:-
ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players. DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though. OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many.
Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies.
Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future.
What justifies this post? Are you PR for quantic? Are you trying to enlighten TL as to why the signed flo.
The bottom line is they did. Why do we need to investigate the motives behind it.
Then you go off on some tangent about how she doesn't look likely to win MLG, Dreamhack or any other major tournaments. You seem to have such a keen eye as you decipher the motives for Quantic and Women gaming in general. What about your keen eye for players thats are likely to win major tournaments. I can't see EG picking machine or Incontrol to win a major tournament anytime soon, OR ANY OTHER FOREIGN TEAM. The flip side to that is THEY ARE MALE PLAYERS. So what is the justification for their signing?
The only part of your post that is respectable is you wrapping it up and wishing her good luck.
I felt like posting it, I've known women playing games for a very long time, I've known some of them VERY well. I find peoples motivations to play games competitively interesting. I'm as interested in what separates the merely very good from the best in all male situations as well.
> Are you PR for quantic?
Hah, no.
> Are you trying to enlighten TL as to why the signed flo.
Perhaps. Lots of people throwing a single opinion in, or maybe an insult or whatever. I'm just saying what I think in a public forum.
> The bottom line is they did. Why do we need to investigate the motives behind it.
We don't really NEED to, but we don't really need to discuss the motivations of anything anyone does. But people like to (and on the woman in competitive gaming discussion, I really quite like to). It might be called gossip in a way, and an entire industry is built on the fact people like to gossip.
> I can't see EG picking machine or Incontrol to win a major tournament anytime soon, OR ANY OTHER FOREIGN TEAM. The flip side to that is THEY ARE MALE PLAYERS. So what is the justification for their signing?
I'd agree with that, and I think the players might be a touch concerned about those contracts themselves, particularly with the EG move to sending the players that might (Huk, Puma, Idra) to Korea. I'm not saying EG are about to let them go, but gaming teams constantly evaluate if teams or players are good ROI's, and when they aren't, they aren't in the team anymore.
On December 23 2011 03:43 Trizzen wrote: Wow, I can't beleive the ammount of terrible posters here. Terrible posters or secretly members of Quantic Gaming that can't accept the fact that Quantic Gaming picked up a female with a passion for playing Starcraft II to play for their roster. It must be a frustrating as hell that Flo is blessed with good looks aswell and can play the game well. What the hell is wrong with you people? Go make a damned blog about how females have no place in gaming communities somewhere else. I don't get all this negativity.
Go out, get some fresh air or something.
Lol, look at who's white-knighting! Why don't all high masters males with passion all get sponsored like this? If Quantic doesn't sponsor every high masters male with a passion im going to lose ALOT of respect for them as a company and a team.
I got lost somewhere between the jab and sarcasm. O.o;
It's obvious the posters against the acquisition of Flo are well educated, experienced and beautiful business men. I sometimes forget that everyone on team liquid are former progamers with merits when it comes to team management, finance and music. I retract my initial post about my assesment of the twenty-something-bitter little nerd sitting in some dark basement posting meaningful things on a forum.
Saw her stream, she's a very fast player, very micro based with pretty solid macro too. I don't see what the big deal is, shes very good and marketable, pure skill isn't the only factor in determining who gets to be on a team, and if you believe that you really need to see the roster of pretty much any team.
On December 23 2011 23:00 Pumplekin wrote: All of this is clearly IMO, even though I'm stating it like facts.
So women can't play games?
Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you).
1.) Women can't play games.
Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games.
2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games!
Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player.
3.) What about other games/sports?
Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games.
In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players.
4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo?
Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that).
5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then?
The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again.
6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments.
Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries.
7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming?
In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:-
ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players. DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though. OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many.
Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies.
Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future.
What justifies this post? Are you PR for quantic? Are you trying to enlighten TL as to why the signed flo.
The bottom line is they did. Why do we need to investigate the motives behind it.
Then you go off on some tangent about how she doesn't look likely to win MLG, Dreamhack or any other major tournaments. You seem to have such a keen eye as you decipher the motives for Quantic and Women gaming in general. What about your keen eye for players thats are likely to win major tournaments. I can't see EG picking machine or Incontrol to win a major tournament anytime soon, OR ANY OTHER FOREIGN TEAM. The flip side to that is THEY ARE MALE PLAYERS. So what is the justification for their signing?
The only part of your post that is respectable is you wrapping it up and wishing her good luck.
Machine is good in practice and Incontrol is a coach/PR guy?
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
It's Hollywood with their Jackie Robinson stories. These days, no member of any minority is allowed to pioneer in any field of human endeavor unless they are the best of the field. Otherwise, they got in because they are black.
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
I think most of the hate are butthurt guys who think she got this spot simply because shes female.
I sort of get it.. But as I see it Destiny got his spot because he's a popular streamer yet I don't see this hate. Now, if people are thinking they deserve to be on a premier team because of their Starcraft skills alone (Ladder Ranking or whatever) they'll have to realize they do need some sort of appeal. Popular streamer? Attractive Female? I works for a team and e-sports. So again quit being wusses. I know it probably feels like high school politics but you do have the opportunity to wear some cool shades next time you play.
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
I think most of the hate are butthurt guys who think she got this spot simply because shes female.
I sort of get it.. But as I see it Destiny got his spot because he's a popular streamer yet I don't see this hate. Now, if people are thinking they deserve to be on a premier team because of their Starcraft skills alone (Ladder Ranking or whatever) they'll have to realize they do need some sort of appeal. Popular streamer? Attractive Female? I works for a team and e-sports. So again quit being wusses. I know it probably feels like high school politics but you do have the opportunity to wear some cool shades next time you play.
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
I think most of the hate are butthurt guys who think she got this spot simply because shes female.
I sort of get it.. But as I see it Destiny got his spot because he's a popular streamer yet I don't see this hate. Now, if people are thinking they deserve to be on a premier team because of their Starcraft skills alone (Ladder Ranking or whatever) they'll have to realize they do need some sort of appeal. Popular streamer? Attractive Female? I works for a team and e-sports. So again quit being wusses. I know it probably feels like high school politics but you do have the opportunity to wear some cool shades next time you play.
Destiny has a shit ton of fans compared to flo
Did you understand my post mate?
Yeah Destiny is popular so he doesn't get all this hate but him being a personality and her being well.. her is essentially the same thing.
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
It's Hollywood with their Jackie Robinson stories. These days, no member of any minority is allowed to pioneer in any field of human endeavor unless they are the best of the field. Otherwise, they got in because they are black.
Anyway, congrats to Flo.
No, people are "hating" because she gets special treatment with joining teams because she's a girl, if she was male at that skill level then Quantic would never pick her up.
Quantic picking her up has no effect on the chances that a male high masters player has of getting picked up by a team. It must be frustrating trying really hard to get your name out there and not being able to get into a team, but that has nothing to do with Flo. Quantic picking up Flo doesn't suddenly reduce the chance of male players have at joining teams. Why the hate?
She seems like a good person, but the interview was a bit too awkward for me. most of the questions were like 'ur a gurl and u play video games, tell me about that.' Made worse by the fact that flo was so sick she couldn't even talk without choking on herself
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
It's Hollywood with their Jackie Robinson stories. These days, no member of any minority is allowed to pioneer in any field of human endeavor unless they are the best of the field. Otherwise, they got in because they are black.
Anyway, congrats to Flo.
No, people are "hating" because she gets special treatment with joining teams because she's a girl, if she was male at that skill level then Quantic would never pick her up.
Awesome news, and wishing you tons of success, Flo!! ^^
All the haters out there are kinda amusing ... if you really think YOU are a better player and "deserve" to be on a team, go out there, compete in every tournament, get well known and PROVE you have the skill, the determination and the marketability to deserve to be on a team. Sitting in your office chair and QQing about someone else's success will get you nowhere.
Also, there may be lots of good players out there, but most don't have the drive to strive to become progamers ... and are not willing to put enough hours in. Flo, obviously, is.
On December 26 2011 03:20 Railin wrote: Awesome news, and wishing you tons of success, Flo!! ^^
All the haters out there are kinda amusing ... if you really think YOU are a better player and "deserve" to be on a team, go out there, compete in every tournament, get well known and PROVE you have the skill, the determination and the marketability to deserve to be on a team. Sitting in your office chair and QQing about someone else's success will get you nowhere.
Also, there may be lots of good players out there, but most don't have the drive to strive to become progamers ... and are not willing to put enough hours in. Flo, obviously, is.
This would be a good point, but what has she done to prove that she has skill and determination?
On December 26 2011 03:20 Railin wrote: Awesome news, and wishing you tons of success, Flo!! ^^
All the haters out there are kinda amusing ... if you really think YOU are a better player and "deserve" to be on a team, go out there, compete in every tournament, get well known and PROVE you have the skill, the determination and the marketability to deserve to be on a team. Sitting in your office chair and QQing about someone else's success will get you nowhere.
Also, there may be lots of good players out there, but most don't have the drive to strive to become progamers ... and are not willing to put enough hours in. Flo, obviously, is.
This would be a good point, but what has she done to prove that she has skill and determination?
This would be a good point, but it is not of your or my concern?
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
It's Hollywood with their Jackie Robinson stories. These days, no member of any minority is allowed to pioneer in any field of human endeavor unless they are the best of the field. Otherwise, they got in because they are black.
Anyway, congrats to Flo.
No, people are "hating" because she gets special treatment with joining teams because she's a girl, if she was male at that skill level then Quantic would never pick her up.
False, they picked Destiny up
He gets around 10k stream viewers though and A LOT of exposure compared to what she gets but your statement is correct
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Pretty big assumption and blanket statement insinuating that the people posting in this thread don't know how to run a business. Also, to take that point further, you must think "a bunch of people" are pretty stupid considering business is the easiest major to consider at the college level. And I'm sure, as you always do, you'll say, "Oh I meant this or that." So let me demonstrate how its done TB. You want to say exactly what you mean and not insult random passersby.
All I see here is you telling the majority of us, odds are some posters probably much more skilled than Flo, but because they are male, which is a dime a dozen in the gaming world, their skill doesn't matter as much as a somewhat attractive female that got knocked out first round MLG. We are, for the most part, making advances past men making 1/3 more per dollar than women in the work place. So I don't see a need to give some girls a better shot on a team than someone else who is more skilled. Keep in mind, she's being recruited as a player.
Tell me again why should we care about Flo? Because she advanced 2 stages in the Losers bracket @ MLG? TBH I'm quite tired of some women getting attention they don't deserve in the SC2 community. Like Kelly Milkies for example who shows great disrespect in public events along side other casters. And as long as we're there, why doesn't Megumixbear get more attention? She's attended MLG's, she puts together tournaments on her own (and casts them), and plays vs. GM practice partners often on streams. I think she's more deserving than Flo by far, and gives more back to the community, so what seperates them? The fact that Kelly appeared on Maxim?
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Pretty big assumption and blanket statement insinuating that the people posting in this thread don't know how to run a business. Also, to take that point further, you must think "a bunch of people" are pretty stupid considering business is the easiest major to consider at the college level. And I'm sure, as you always do, you'll say, "Oh I meant this or that." So let me demonstrate how its done TB. You want to say exactly what you mean and not insult random passersby.
All I see here is you telling the majority of us, odds are some posters probably much more skilled than Flo, but because they are male, which is a dime a dozen in the gaming world, their skill doesn't matter as much as a somewhat attractive female that got knocked out first round MLG. We are, for the most part, making advances past men making 1/3 more per dollar than women in the work place. So I don't see a need to give some girls a better shot on a team than someone else who is more skilled. Keep in mind, she's being recruited as a player.
Tell me again why should we care about Flo? Because she advanced 2 stages in the Losers bracket @ MLG? TBH I'm quite tired of some women getting attention they don't deserve in the SC2 community. Like Kelly Milkies for example who shows great disrespect in public events along side other casters. And as long as we're there, why doesn't Megumixbear get more attention? She's attended MLG's, she puts together tournaments on her own (and casts them), and plays vs. GM practice partners often on streams. I think she's more deserving than Flo by far, and gives more back to the community, so what seperates them? The fact that Kelly appeared on Maxim?
What is this ridiculus talk about deserve? You don't get on a team because you deserve it, you get on a team because the team wants you. It is their own fucking business who they want on a team. How do you measure "deserve" by the way? Can you accumulate them? How much must you deserve to get promoted to team EG or TeamLiquid. Does EG have higher deserve than EG?
On December 23 2011 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: All I see here are a bunch of people that have no idea how to run a business, trying to advise Quantic of how to run theirs.
Pretty big assumption and blanket statement insinuating that the people posting in this thread don't know how to run a business. Also, to take that point further, you must think "a bunch of people" are pretty stupid considering business is the easiest major to consider at the college level. And I'm sure, as you always do, you'll say, "Oh I meant this or that." So let me demonstrate how its done TB. You want to say exactly what you mean and not insult random passersby.
All I see here is you telling the majority of us, odds are some posters probably much more skilled than Flo, but because they are male, which is a dime a dozen in the gaming world, their skill doesn't matter as much as a somewhat attractive female that got knocked out first round MLG. We are, for the most part, making advances past men making 1/3 more per dollar than women in the work place. So I don't see a need to give some girls a better shot on a team than someone else who is more skilled. Keep in mind, she's being recruited as a player.
Tell me again why should we care about Flo? Because she advanced 2 stages in the Losers bracket @ MLG? TBH I'm quite tired of some women getting attention they don't deserve in the SC2 community. Like Kelly Milkies for example who shows great disrespect in public events along side other casters. And as long as we're there, why doesn't Megumixbear get more attention? She's attended MLG's, she puts together tournaments on her own (and casts them), and plays vs. GM practice partners often on streams. I think she's more deserving than Flo by far, and gives more back to the community, so what seperates them? The fact that Kelly appeared on Maxim?
What is this ridiculus talk about deserve? You don't get on a team because you deserve it, you get on a team because the team wants you. It is their own fucking business who they want on a team. How do you measure "deserve" by the way? Can you accumulate them? How much must you deserve to get promoted to team EG or TeamLiquid. Does EG have higher deserve than EG?
How I personally would measure how much one person deserves a spot on a team vs another player by performance. And I don't think its ridiculous to talk about it based on the arguments I have already stated above. However, talking about EG vs. Liquid is really off topic and unrelated.
Good for her making it pro. As far as my support is concerned, anyone taking up the mantel of pro gamer has my support, but I'll reserve judgement until she debuts in the 2012 season.
I don't get all the anger. Some people are claiming that Flo would not be picked up were she a male(which I very much agree with). I didn't really see many people say they were stupid for picking her up. Just that she wasn't 100 percent deserving of it. It's a good move and makes sense, but that doesn't make it any more impressive for her to be picked up. If EG picked her up all of this hate would be justified in TL's eyes. It's just kinda silly how people are so quick to be angry at anything that comes up here.
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
Actually I think it's Quantic that's supporting her. TLWKB does sound pretty cool though. Maybe TL's team should change its name, though Hero and Haypro might feel a bit left out
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
Don't worry, there are enough misogynists to overwhelm them.
Don't get what all the fuss is about. Quantic signed her on the for the exact same reason they signed someone like Destiny on, no? Well obviously it isn't the same reason exactly, but commonality exists that neither of them were signed on due to their play. Not saying either of them are particularly bad, but they don't really hold a candle to Quantics other players like Sase and Naniwa
But ultimately people just have to accept that teams sign on players that they deem profitable. Sometimes players are able to market themselves well enough that despite their lacking play, they still are capable of driving a revenue for their team. Which is perfectly acceptable in a world where people want Starcraft to be somewhat self sustaining
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
Don't worry, there are enough misogynists to overwhelm them.
I love how that word is the mighty Excalibur that everyone unsheathes in threads that deal with topics like this one.
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
Don't worry, there are enough misogynists to overwhelm them.
I love how that word is the mighty Excalibur that everyone unsheathes in threads that deal with topics like this one.
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
Don't worry, there are enough misogynists to overwhelm them.
I love how that word is the mighty Excalibur that everyone unsheathes in threads that deal with topics like this one.
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
Good news, I remember hearing about Flo when she joined team pms. Hope the partnership with Quantic helps her to become a greater and more well known player. Good luck.
Edit: My faith in the TL forums took a violent nose dive reading some of the post in here. Some people here should stick to reddit and battle.net forums. Holy hell
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
is Zlasher the battalion commander
No better time for the dark/black knights to rise again!
On December 26 2011 10:52 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: Never even heard of her. She has the support of the TL White Knight Battalion though so she'll get all the support she will ever need. :/
I bet there is a lot of things you have never heard of. Your point?
On December 24 2011 23:23 Bottles wrote: I can't get my head around the hate generated in this thread.. She's a girl big deal? She's on par with existing players on the team. She plays Starcraft like everyone else here. She is better than most of the posters here.. Bad move for E-Sports? Picture thousands of nerds throwing love for her when she does prove herself. Picture the nerd stereotype of video games flying straight out the window when Quantic's newest pick up delivers. For fuck sake we're mostly guys here - don't be fucking wusses and give the woman some props! Merry Christmas
I think most of the hate are butthurt guys who think she got this spot simply because shes female.
I sort of get it.. But as I see it Destiny got his spot because he's a popular streamer yet I don't see this hate. Now, if people are thinking they deserve to be on a premier team because of their Starcraft skills alone (Ladder Ranking or whatever) they'll have to realize they do need some sort of appeal. Popular streamer? Attractive Female? I works for a team and e-sports. So again quit being wusses. I know it probably feels like high school politics but you do have the opportunity to wear some cool shades next time you play.
Destiny has a shit ton of fans compared to flo
Did you understand my post mate?
Yeah Destiny is popular so he doesn't get all this hate but him being a personality and her being well.. her is essentially the same thing.
It isnt the same thing at all. Destiny was signed because he has/is a personality, she was signed because she is a girl. Unless if "Being a girl" is a personality now...But I though the point was NOT to be sexist?
Signing a girl based solely on the fact that she is a girl is sexism. People are mad about that. and to argue with the "Jackie robinson" posts I see. She does NOT have to be the best to get signed to a contract but....at least being in grandmasters on NA would be nice.
With that being said, smart move by Quantic, I dont blame them a bit. She is one of, if not the best females in the game. This will bring them a ton of good and bad press, and their sponsors love that.
I don't see why so many people are crying about Flo joining Quantic. Look at Danica Patrick, how many people watched Indy races just to see her? She's never won a race, but her marketing potential is just as much or more than that of Indy Champions.
On December 30 2011 11:10 NinerB wrote: I don't see why so many people are crying about Flo joining Quantic. Look at Danica Patrick, how many people watched Indy races just to see her? She's never won a race, but her marketing potential is just as much or more than that of Indy Champions.
Yeah, that's the point. That's what people are crying about - bad players getting picked up by teams just because they are female, and therefor garner attention.
On December 30 2011 11:10 NinerB wrote: I don't see why so many people are crying about Flo joining Quantic. Look at Danica Patrick, how many people watched Indy races just to see her? She's never won a race, but her marketing potential is just as much or more than that of Indy Champions.
yea except danica has won a race and has placed well in races before.
On December 30 2011 11:10 NinerB wrote: I don't see why so many people are crying about Flo joining Quantic. Look at Danica Patrick, how many people watched Indy races just to see her? She's never won a race, but her marketing potential is just as much or more than that of Indy Champions.
yea except danica has won a race and has placed well in races before.
I just hope she wasn't signed because she is a girl, I hope she was signed because she's talented. We've seen too much blind recruiting based on "looks" and having no girls on pro teams. Hopefully this time is different.
It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
On December 30 2011 11:10 NinerB wrote: I don't see why so many people are crying about Flo joining Quantic. Look at Danica Patrick, how many people watched Indy races just to see her? She's never won a race, but her marketing potential is just as much or more than that of Indy Champions.
Yeah, that's the point. That's what people are crying about - bad players getting picked up by teams just because they are female, and therefor garner attention.
so both players are picked up for things other than their gaming skill. destiny/flow
On January 01 2012 02:53 Spudlyman wrote: It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
That's the problem, if she isn't being recruited off of skill level alone, its sexist to the male gender for her to be recruited. And saying someone can't get recruited without a team's support is stupid. There's free playhems every day, Open Tourney's etc. The main problem is that not as many females play, otherwise we'd have a much larger pool of talented women to pull from. Bottom Line: She's taking the place of someone much more skillful than herself, and the same could be said of Destiny or other "personalities" who never perform well.
On January 01 2012 02:53 Spudlyman wrote: It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
That's the problem, if she isn't being recruited off of skill level alone, its sexist to the male gender for her to be recruited. And saying someone can't get recruited without a team's support is stupid. There's free playhems every day, Open Tourney's etc. The main problem is that not as many females play, otherwise we'd have a much larger pool of talented women to pull from. Bottom Line: She's taking the place of someone much more skillful than herself, and the same could be said of Destiny or other "personalities" who never perform well.
Oh get over it. HuK wasn't recruited and given a top salary off of skill level alone, but for being the best performing and marketable white dude. It must be racist to the Koreans for him to recruited then, am I correct? Life isn't fair.
On January 01 2012 02:53 Spudlyman wrote: It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
That's the problem, if she isn't being recruited off of skill level alone, its sexist to the male gender for her to be recruited. And saying someone can't get recruited without a team's support is stupid. There's free playhems every day, Open Tourney's etc. The main problem is that not as many females play, otherwise we'd have a much larger pool of talented women to pull from. Bottom Line: She's taking the place of someone much more skillful than herself, and the same could be said of Destiny or other "personalities" who never perform well.
Oh get over it. HuK wasn't recruited and given a top salary off of skill level alone, but for being the best performing and marketable white dude. It must be racist to the Koreans for him to recruited then, am I correct? Life isn't fair.
Exactly. Going by the weird logic, there really should be one existing team with one member only. Since otherwise you are "taking a place of someone more skillful". /facepalm
On January 01 2012 02:53 Spudlyman wrote: It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
That's the problem, if she isn't being recruited off of skill level alone, its sexist to the male gender for her to be recruited. And saying someone can't get recruited without a team's support is stupid. There's free playhems every day, Open Tourney's etc. The main problem is that not as many females play, otherwise we'd have a much larger pool of talented women to pull from. Bottom Line: She's taking the place of someone much more skillful than herself, and the same could be said of Destiny or other "personalities" who never perform well.
Oh get over it. HuK wasn't recruited and given a top salary off of skill level alone, but for being the best performing and marketable white dude. It must be racist to the Koreans for him to recruited then, am I correct? Life isn't fair.
I don't even know where to begin when replying to this. HuK has won Dreamhack, performed well, played in Code S, etc. Flo has done what? Lost to KellyMilkies?
On January 01 2012 02:53 Spudlyman wrote: It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
That's the problem, if she isn't being recruited off of skill level alone, its sexist to the male gender for her to be recruited. And saying someone can't get recruited without a team's support is stupid. There's free playhems every day, Open Tourney's etc. The main problem is that not as many females play, otherwise we'd have a much larger pool of talented women to pull from. Bottom Line: She's taking the place of someone much more skillful than herself, and the same could be said of Destiny or other "personalities" who never perform well.
Oh get over it. HuK wasn't recruited and given a top salary off of skill level alone, but for being the best performing and marketable white dude. It must be racist to the Koreans for him to recruited then, am I correct? Life isn't fair.
Exactly. Going by the weird logic, there really should be one existing team with one member only. Since otherwise you are "taking a place of someone more skillful". /facepalm
Weird logic. Like performing well in a single tournament in SC2. Yeah, I see your point... /facepalm
On December 30 2011 11:10 NinerB wrote: I don't see why so many people are crying about Flo joining Quantic. Look at Danica Patrick, how many people watched Indy races just to see her? She's never won a race, but her marketing potential is just as much or more than that of Indy Champions.
Yeah, that's the point. That's what people are crying about - bad players getting picked up by teams just because they are female, and therefor garner attention.
she is probably better than 90% of the people crying about her joining, shes not a bad player at all
now there are plenty of really bad players that are on pro teams , yet nobody cries about them .people need to grow the fuck up
On January 01 2012 02:53 Spudlyman wrote: It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
That's the problem, if she isn't being recruited off of skill level alone, its sexist to the male gender for her to be recruited. And saying someone can't get recruited without a team's support is stupid. There's free playhems every day, Open Tourney's etc. The main problem is that not as many females play, otherwise we'd have a much larger pool of talented women to pull from. Bottom Line: She's taking the place of someone much more skillful than herself, and the same could be said of Destiny or other "personalities" who never perform well.
Oh get over it. HuK wasn't recruited and given a top salary off of skill level alone, but for being the best performing and marketable white dude. It must be racist to the Koreans for him to recruited then, am I correct? Life isn't fair.
Exactly. Going by the weird logic, there really should be one existing team with one member only. Since otherwise you are "taking a place of someone more skillful". /facepalm
Weird logic. Like performing well in a single tournament in SC2. Yeah, I see your point... /facepalm
As your answer implies, no, you don't get the point at all. You failed to realize the problems inherited with a strict "but there are better players" policy, because there will almost always be better players. Hence accordingly there really should be only one player getting the whole industry's worth of support- aka the best player, the only one to which your faulty judgment doesn't apply? There isn't even remotely something like a Power Rank established, yet we have barely finished one tournament season of what you could call a stable game. Why did folks like Attero, Gatored, Future get picked up? Because they were Nestea, clearly. Or, because the teams wanted to. It's that easy. No one is entitled to an endorsement. As I have no obligation to employ anyone as business owner. I might not like your face. I hire people I like, or else I don't at all.
On January 01 2012 02:53 Spudlyman wrote: It's silly, without a team's support, the odds that any girl gets to top of GM and competes with any males pros is pretty damn small. With a team, maybe this could happen. Every time a girl gets signed on by a team I'm hopeful that they take it seriously enough to start winning games in big tournaments. With some girls in the pro scene, there is 50% of the world population that is less likely to feel alienated by E-Sports and professional Starcraft, which is always ALWAYS a good thing. And yet every time a team picks up a girl, people are mad that she isn't good enough, and whine about it in forums. IT MUST BE SEXIST!!! But I'm sure these people would "love to see a girl picked up that's as good as the pros". So how do you expect it to get to that point. Sitting and waiting for the god-tier female players to show up sure isn't working, So picking the very best girls and giving them a lot of opportunity to improve sounds like a good option. We're just lucky to be in a situation where this choice is profitable for teams to make, because of all girl tourneys and publicity.
Also, Congrats to Flo, easily my favorite female SCII player. I hope to see you wrecking faces in many tournaments to come!
That's the problem, if she isn't being recruited off of skill level alone, its sexist to the male gender for her to be recruited. And saying someone can't get recruited without a team's support is stupid. There's free playhems every day, Open Tourney's etc. The main problem is that not as many females play, otherwise we'd have a much larger pool of talented women to pull from. Bottom Line: She's taking the place of someone much more skillful than herself, and the same could be said of Destiny or other "personalities" who never perform well.
Oh get over it. HuK wasn't recruited and given a top salary off of skill level alone, but for being the best performing and marketable white dude. It must be racist to the Koreans for him to recruited then, am I correct? Life isn't fair.
Exactly. Going by the weird logic, there really should be one existing team with one member only. Since otherwise you are "taking a place of someone more skillful". /facepalm
Weird logic. Like performing well in a single tournament in SC2. Yeah, I see your point... /facepalm
As your answer implies, no, you don't get the point at all. You failed to realize the problems inherited with a strict "but there are better players" policy, because there will almost always be better players. Hence accordingly there really should be only one player getting the whole industry's worth of support- aka the best player, the only one to which your faulty judgment doesn't apply? There isn't even remotely something like a Power Rank established, yet we have barely finished one tournament season of what you could call a stable game. Why did folks like Attero, Gatored, Future get picked up? Because they were Nestea, clearly. Or, because the teams wanted to. It's that easy. No one is entitled to an endorsement. As I have no obligation to employ anyone as business owner. I might not like your face. I hire people I like, or else I don't at all.
Yes there will will always be better players, and there will always be better choices. However, picking someone solely based on gender and/or attractiveness is ridiculous. Gatored, for one, has been playing this game for a little over 1 year - he was probably picked up because he made top masters within a few months. Attero played well as random, which was rare when the game first came out, was extremely active, and one of the best streamers who also casted and hosted mini tournaments.
As for Flo, she hasn't done anything productive in anyway for SC2. She's not good, and there are plenty of other accessible players to choose from with better tournament results. What about Sterling? Played well in Broodwar, went to WCG's and MLG's, great player, and streamer.
And to be honest, I would actually like to see more women break into the scene. But when the ones with actual talent start to perform well in tournaments, they won't nearly have the same respect. Most of the people supporting Flo probably don't even know about her CS:1.6 experience prior to SC2. The majority support this decision blindly because they so desperately want to see more girls in the scene, and they don't care about how good of a player they are. *OMG TITS*
On January 11 2012 17:31 Haste2005 wrote: I was just watching her stream in the hopes that I'd be proven wrong when called someone a coon. Fuck this chick.
On January 11 2012 17:31 Haste2005 wrote: I was just watching her stream in the hopes that I'd be proven wrong when called someone a coon. Fuck this chick.
On January 11 2012 17:31 Haste2005 wrote: I was just watching her stream in the hopes that I'd be proven wrong when called someone a coon. Fuck this chick.
On January 11 2012 18:03 Fleshcut wrote: Someone pls help me out. What does coon mean? Coming from racoon? The animal? XD If yes, then you guys must be trolling.
Also there are sooooo many other ultra BM players like Idra, CombatEX, Deezer or your average ladder person, so who cares about this? ^^
I don´t see the problem. Teams are free to hire whoever they believe will strengthen their brand. That’s what it all comes down to. Every professional team is an enterprise and the only way to survive is to have a strong brand.
Congratulations to Flo for being recruited! Hopefully this will provide her the means to compete with each and everyone questioning her being picked up by the team (I’m fairly sure she would steam roll almost everyone who has questioned her capabilities in this thread). Hopefully Quantic will also get what they wished for when employing her!
Guys let me just clarify this, I was the person Flo was playing and trash talking with and that stems from an inside joke I can assure you it was not used in a malicious manner. Sorry for anyone who got confused by this but it deals with the animal, not the racial slur and it was between me and Flo. Me and Flo like to joke around and I can see from how the outside looking in it seems extremely appalling but it was not used in that context.
On January 11 2012 18:03 Fleshcut wrote: Someone pls help me out. What does coon mean? Coming from racoon? The animal? XD If yes, then you guys must be trolling.
Also there are sooooo many other ultra BM players like Idra, CombatEX, Deezer or your average ladder person, so who cares about this? ^^
On January 11 2012 17:31 Haste2005 wrote: I was just watching her stream in the hopes that I'd be proven wrong when called someone a coon. Fuck this chick.
On January 11 2012 17:31 Haste2005 wrote: I was just watching her stream in the hopes that I'd be proven wrong when called someone a coon. Fuck this chick.
that's pretty tame by ladder standards bro
It's still disgusting and unacceptable.
My virgin eyes!!
grow up
yeah, we should all ignore casual racism. sth like that doesn't offend ME, but I can still tell that racist guy off for being an idiot. You ignoring the racism is just as bad. ignoring racism is not "cool" it's just douchebaggery
On December 30 2011 11:10 NinerB wrote: I don't see why so many people are crying about Flo joining Quantic. Look at Danica Patrick, how many people watched Indy races just to see her? She's never won a race, but her marketing potential is just as much or more than that of Indy Champions.
She has won races you idiot, its nothing similiar.
Hilariously enough I've spend 90% of my time playing video games because I've spent 90% of my life playing video games, what has that brought me nothing but terrible social skills,no money, and good hand eye coordination. And I'm spending my time playing SC2 to try to go pro eventually because I have nothing else going for me.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O4e7a.png)
Flo” Yao. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gl4FN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/51djU)
