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On December 14 2011 01:30 SPQR13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:21 -y0shi- wrote:On December 14 2011 01:09 Ysellian wrote:On December 14 2011 01:06 FluXxxx wrote:On December 14 2011 00:58 Ysellian wrote:On December 14 2011 00:49 Xiron wrote:On December 14 2011 00:43 OpticalShot wrote:
Naniwa: "With nothing at stake people can't show their best."
Very disappointed. Sure, there was no immediate cash at stake from that match, but what about fan support? What about leaving behind an epic grudgematch to be talked about for several months? What about the 'image' of a 'progamer'? What about just playing a fine broadcasted game for the sake of playing the game?
Why would Blizzard schedule the game even if the result did not affect the numbers on the cheques?
There are certain underlying expectations that were shattered. Have you ever lost a game ever? I personally don't want to play directly after an important game. If I'm forced to play when I just dont want to because it's senseless since I'm on tilt, I quit. Naniwa did just the same. What expectations are you even talking about? If Naniwa crushed Nestea, everyone would have said 'Nestea was on tilt bla'. If Naniwa got crushed everyone would say the same about Nani. There wouldnt have been a grudge match because it was in an not competitive situation anymore, so the restults dont matter. If you play sports competitively you'll find dozens of times when things don't go your way and you find yourself in Naniwa's position. It's one of the worst things feelings ever, but that's sports. If a tournament wants you to play out the remaining matches you take it like a man. If I pulled off something similar as Naniwa I would get suspended by my club. edit: After typing I actually recalled a chess tournament where I did something similar as Naniwa. I call tell you that didn't end well for me XD i have played so many different sports competitively,soccer,table top soccer, volleyball whatever and there were always events where i or my team played decider matches that i didn't want to play because i was disappointed but i played everytime because i fucking loved these kind of sports!!! I have just played for the fun and some of these matches have been the most funniest matches i have ever played! This is so unbelievably true actually. I remember this game ending in soccer where we won 7-5 it was just insane as both teams really wanted to go out with a bang, it really helped wash away the pain of the defeat. Yes it can be fun once youre over your loss and just play just for the heck of it. But look at this tournament... Nani probably prepared a ton for this and played really good, and had 3 pretty heartbreaking and close losses. So after this he is probably sad, let down, mad, frustrated.. And then people cant just leave them alone and force him to play a completly pointless match? Just because theyre out for more blood and drama? Really? People talk about respect for the audience and the sponsors but who has some respect for naniwa. Yes Whitera probably wouldve done something goofy in that game and enjoyed it. But people are different and Nani is someone who obviously takes this game really serious and takes a while to get over these losses. And these losses WHERE heartbreaking and frustrating. And forcing someone who obviously doesnt want to play a fun game / is frustrated and in a bad mood to play, just because people want more blood and drama?! THATS disrespectful towards these players as persons with emotions and nerves. People will get stressed out/sad over losses because theyre human beings and if people feel like this then forcing them to play meaningless games just for the crowd is disrespectful to them as human beings. At least the guy acts like himself and says what he means instead of going "im soo sorry i promise my fans ill train more" like 90% of koreans would. All good points ... Except ofcourse ... They are professionals and they get paid to do this, so he should either suck it up and keep playing, or quit the team, return the paychecks and stick to ladder. There is nothing more to it.
And because theyre professionals means they cant be human beings anymore? He obviously takes losses harder then most persons, thats just how he is. You can dislike it but thats just how he feels, hes really passionate about the game and this also reflects when he losses and his dissapointed.
Even if he is payed to play there, once he is out and obviously not feeling good, would it be that hard to just dont force this burden of a meaningless game on him and instead let him alone with himself til he is feeling better?
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It's all about respect. Of course he has a choice to do what he did, but it was clearly no respect to anybody, the opponent, the audiences, the fans, the organization..... He only thinks of himself.
People can sympathize and justify his action this way or that way, but in the end of the day, that action only means one thing and one thing only: lack of professionalism. He can explain all he wants but if he doesn't even realize his action is bad and changes it himself, then he clearly need help...
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i think people should just get the sand out of their vagina and stop whining at naniwa for having a personality and doing what he feels is right.
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I think its reasonable for Nani to not want to reveal his big game plans vs a player like Nestea. The game was basically an exhibition, and Nani chose to reveal nothing.
The controversy brings more attention than any meaningless macro game could....so really its a win for esports.
I love that Nani goes with his heart, despite it being "unprofessional".
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Haters gonna hate, people love drama. Naniwa's reasons make sense, the game had no meaning, not even for seeding (like consolation matches at MLG's which players constantly ditch). And it's not like he refused to play, he just did a silly cheese.
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he could have gone for something ridiculous like 1 base carrier or something like that. Would that been better?
The game had no effect so Nani treated the game as it was.
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I just think it's refreshing. Even Idra has settled down recently since he got a girlfriend now (lol), so there's noone to cause an uproar except for Naniwa. I mean every sport needs a badboy, and it's not an easy role to bear (mentally), kudos to Naniwa actually for bearing it.
I can see why people get upset, but, honestly, I for one prefer when stuff like this happens as long as it's the exception and not the rule. Obviously it makes people think about what they think is okay and how they want the future of e-sports to be which in the long run will make it easier to shape e-sports into something greater.
For example, something which is evident throughout this thread alone is that people have different views of what a progamer is expected to do on stage. Some think they should be playing for themselves only, others that they should be playing for their fans and not for themselves. This discussion wouldn't have taken place if noone had done what Naniwa did. Discussions like these are needed.
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On December 14 2011 01:38 BRaegO wrote:
I cannot believe this "community"... He gave you his reasoning and if you don't like it, that's too bad for you. His reasoning is sound. I would have to say the majority here can't say shit about what he did. Why? That's easy. How the hell do you know how he feels in that situation. Are you in the GSL? Do you play at that level? You can say that "I would never do that" or "no reason for this behavior", but until you are put in that exact situation, your opinion means nothing. So quit crying about what and why he did it. From his standpoint he doesn't owe anyone here anything; but he still explained his side for this so called "community" anyways.
Take it for what it is. If you don't like him or don't agree with him that's fine. You want to blast something, blast the tournament setup.
He can have his reasons for doing what he did, and I can have my reasons for thinking he doesn't have what it takes to be a professional gamer. I don't think it's a rational argument to demand any sort of punishment, but it is wholly rational to sit back and say "wow, if he can't handle losing 3 games and still have the balls to man up for game 4, how in the world is he ever going to remain dedicated enough to bust his ass 24/7 and take and any and every opportunity to be the best of the best?" Koreans aren't the best by chance; they are because they put 100% effort into every game (or try to). Anyone doing less than their best at all times can't and won't be able to compete in the long run, and unless he accepts that he made a mistake and attempts to develop a better-designed approach to the game, he won't last much longer. He'll just get frustrated and quit because he can't handle not being the best "right now." And on the off-chance, he's so innately good at the game that he can throw away learning opportunities like this and still hang, it's a damn shame he doesn't have the commitment to show the world what he's really made of.
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i get the impression that he only plays for money.sad thing.
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So does naniwa probe rush every practice game he plays at home because they dont mean anything? by alot of your logics he should because they arent for money and they dont mean anything. Pro gamers play "meaningless" games by your guys definition of it all day every day thats what they do. He tries hard in every game he plays while hes practicing i bet and they are all meaningless aside from getting practice (obviously important) why could he just have looked at the nestea game as any other practice game.
Its ridiculous to hear all these people say , "it was a meaningless game who cares" why do you watch players streams then? If all those games are meaningless. I understand if you say that you still support nani regardless of this mistake , but to say the game was meaningless so who cares is ridiculous. Thats what progamers do they play "meaningless games" all day to get better, and if they have to play out a tournament for a meaningless game any pro gamer who doesnt have a terrible attitude should beable to look at it as at the very least just another practice game no different then the 100's of practice games they play every week.
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On December 14 2011 01:38 BRaegO wrote:
I cannot believe this "community"... He gave you his reasoning and if you don't like it, that's too bad for you. His reasoning is sound. I would have to say the majority here can't say shit about what he did. Why? That's easy. How the hell do you know how he feels in that situation. Are you in the GSL? Do you play at that level? You can say that "I would never do that" or "no reason for this behavior", but until you are put in that exact situation, your opinion means nothing. So quit crying about what and why he did it. From his standpoint he doesn't owe anyone here anything; but he still explained his side for this so called "community" anyways.
Take it for what it is. If you don't like him or don't agree with him that's fine. You want to blast something, blast the tournament setup.
That's why people protests his behavior in the first place. Even if you feel like the most depressed player in that tournament and if you are a professional as you say, you are demanded and paid to deliver, at least to your sponsors or your team or your employers.
Your argument of "Are you him? Were you there? How do you know how he felt? It feels so hard to be there, how dare you!" is really really and very very irrelevant and exact opposite if we are to discuss being professional...
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On December 14 2011 01:45 FluXxxx wrote:
i get the impression that he only plays for money.sad thing.
He plays to win. There was nothing he could win anymore. The end.
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On December 14 2011 01:44 Nudelfisk wrote:
I just think it's refreshing. Even Idra has settled down recently since he got a girlfriend now (lol), so there's noone to cause an uproar except for Naniwa. I mean every sport needs a badboy, and it's not an easy role to bear (mentally), kudos to Naniwa actually for bearing it.
I can see why people get upset, but, honestly, I for one prefer when stuff like this happens as long as it's the exception and not the rule. Obviously it makes people think about what they think is okay and how they want the future of e-sports to be which in the long run will make it easier to shape e-sports into something greater.
For example, something which is evident throughout this thread alone is that people have different views of what a progamer is expected to do on stage. Some think they should be playing for themselves only, others that they should be playing for their fans and not for themselves. This discussion wouldn't have taken place if noone had done what Naniwa did. Discussions like these are needed.
Idra hasnt had a GF for at least a month or 2 FYI, i mean she only showed up at that one MLG like 6 months ago, i dont think they stayed together for very long after that.
Not to mention she lived in canada , it seemed like more of an online relationship and she came to visit him a couple of times.
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Signed up to chip in on this.
Naniwa is essentially saying three things; he didn't feel like playing, other players did the same thing, and people are just upset because it's him.
Those points are all understandable, but there are some things he needs to consider:
1. This was an invite-only, "champion of the champions" kind of tournament. Gom made them play the match, even though they usually cancel meaningless matches in the up&down groups. Does Nani understand why Gom wanted them to play this game? Up&downs are only there to prepare for the next season, they're no tournament on their own. The Blizzard cup was incredibly hyped, it promised me 10 awesome games between 5 awesome players. We didn't get that today.
2. The situation with Stephano was different. He did not play in an invite-only, "champion of the champions" tournament. He did not have any remarkable history with ClouD. Stephano's team did not tweet about an upcoming "grudge match of the century". Does Naniwa understand the significance that people were looking forward to this match, specifically?
3. Yes, it's very likely that people are "hating just beacuse it's [you]". That is exactly why you should be very worried about it. Do you, Naniwa, understand who it is that pays you for playing this game? It's us. The viewers. Sure, not on the short run. Today it was Gom who paid you. But if you keep making people dislike you, then people will stop watching your matches. This is a spectator sport and therefore you need spectators. If nobody watches your matches, tournaments will stop inviting you. Your team will let you go if they feel your actions are detrimental to them. You need fans. Alienating your fans is a bad idea.
So yes, the match was meaningless. Instead of throwing it away and disappointing a lot of people, perhaps you should have treated it like a showmatch? Build carriers, make your zealots dance, build only cannons, or even offrace. You had a golden opportunity to gain fans and appreciation from fellow progamers. Instead you lost fans and upset the whole Korean scene which you aim to be part of.
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On December 14 2011 01:47 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:44 Nudelfisk wrote:
I just think it's refreshing. Even Idra has settled down recently since he got a girlfriend now (lol), so there's noone to cause an uproar except for Naniwa. I mean every sport needs a badboy, and it's not an easy role to bear (mentally), kudos to Naniwa actually for bearing it.
I can see why people get upset, but, honestly, I for one prefer when stuff like this happens as long as it's the exception and not the rule. Obviously it makes people think about what they think is okay and how they want the future of e-sports to be which in the long run will make it easier to shape e-sports into something greater.
For example, something which is evident throughout this thread alone is that people have different views of what a progamer is expected to do on stage. Some think they should be playing for themselves only, others that they should be playing for their fans and not for themselves. This discussion wouldn't have taken place if noone had done what Naniwa did. Discussions like these are needed. Idra hasnt had a GF for at least a month or 2 FYI, i mean she only showed up at that one MLG like 6 months ago, i dont think they stayed together for very long after that.
lol okay, still my post wasn't about idra
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On December 14 2011 01:46 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:45 FluXxxx wrote:
i get the impression that he only plays for money.sad thing. He plays to win. There was nothing he could win anymore. The end.
i didn't see that in his game vs nestea
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Nani had nothing to play for? Really? You mean he had no money to play for right? He had to play for his new team and their sponsors. Even though he was 0-3 at the time, beating Nestea would have been great. Quantic would have loved it and it would show why they bought his contract. What happened last night just supports why Complexity got rid of him. Nani isnt doing himself any favors here. Also he had to play for the GSL (so they don't have a shitty product), his fans, and the viewers.
And don't give me sports situations where teams rest their players. In sports threr is a high risk of injury and its always valuable to get back ups in game experience. And even with back ups, teams are trying to win. None of this applies to what Nani did.
Nani is a pro sc2 players. Pro means professional. What nani did was anything but professional.
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I don't really get the fuss everyone is making about this to be honest.
Naniwa is right, other players do things like this in matches that don't mean anything, too. They are just a bit more subtle about it. And this match really did not matter at all. It's not like any other player benefitted or suffered a disadvantage because of it. As he said, he could've opted for an "acceptable" form of cheese or something, and wouldn't have gotten nearly half as much criticism.
I rather like Naniwas blunt honesty.
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I was under impression they wouldn't play this match. Because I recall similar situation from past GSL seasons where there were games that didn't change outcome of group at all, yet the games were played now.
It's not nani's fault, situations like these shouldn't exist. It's idiotic to drive players to situation where they don't care about winning.
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On December 14 2011 01:47 FluXxxx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:46 Ravomat wrote:On December 14 2011 01:45 FluXxxx wrote:
i get the impression that he only plays for money.sad thing. He plays to win. There was nothing he could win anymore. The end. i didn't see that in his game vs nestea
Are you really that stupid? He plays to win tournaments. He was 0-3 and could not win the tournament. Should I go on?
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EPT
