On December 14 2011 10:21 BlazeFury01 wrote: The comments on this thread are out of hand and ridiculous.
First of all, I think it's really retarded that people are saying "Oh! I didn't get my moneys worth" Who can honestly admit they bought a blizzcup ticket for the sole purpose of ONLY watching Naniwa vs Nestea? NOBODY! And to say you didn't get your moneys worth after watching Leenock, Naniwa, Nestea, MMA, Polt, MVP, Stephano, Hero, DRG, and MC vs each other is a slap in the face to all of those players. If somebody can pull out a rule book for Blizzcup and show me where it says "you can't worker rush" then I'll shut up. Fact is, there was no rule stating he couldn't do it. Naniwa was already out of the tournament, regardless if he won or lost and had nothing to prove. Also to the post above, if there's a "rule" for throwing games in SC2, please link me to the rule book. This is not Pro League where you have an established committee and board (Kespa) where the players sign contracts and are (licensed) as pro-gamers. This is a tournament where NONE of the players are licensed (unless MVP still has is which I doubt). Therefore, there's no crime in what Naniwa did. What he did however, was disrespectful to everybody who had high expectations and anticipation for the match. But, he should in no way be "banned from GSL" or "banned from a GSL seeding" or "blizzard event" when there's no contract, licensing, rule book, or committee stating such action could not be performed.
I wouldnt say i bought the ticket for that sole purpose, but i was looking forward to that match all night , more so than any other match.
Especially after the trash talking between him and nestea at the press conference. Total pussy move from naniwa to bow out like that. Hes afraid of losing face after talking trash.
On December 14 2011 09:51 redviper wrote: Just as Naniwa had the absolute right to throw his game to Nestea (and lets not call it anything else) the viewers, the players, GOM staff and teams have the absolute right to diss him for it. He doesn't have to respect anyone, just play his game. We don't have to respect him at all. And honestly, who does now?
When he starts Code S, the other players will hopefully show their displeasure. The crowd will hopefully boo him. StarTale will hopefully shun him. I want these things not because I particularly hate Naniwa, but because I hate this dichotomy of treating e-sports like a serious sport and also treating e-sports like a non-serious non-professional video game. Not to say that I don't dislike Naniwa and his lack of a meaningful honest apology makes me like him less. But what can I do?
Yes he has the right to be disrespectful and clearly he has the capability to do so. But others have a right to react strongly to it also.
Well said.
If people want esports to grow, then the people behind it have to be more professional like the koreans. This is why it works so well in Korea because it's treated with dignity and respect. All these people on here saying "who cares?" well you should. Sponsors don't want to get involved in something that is risky, if there is a chance that the Idra's(leaves games without trying at all meaning that we don't ever get to see exciting comebacks(which IMO is true-skill, that's why MVP is known as one of the best)) and the Naniwa's will not give them anything for them money and attract viewers/fans then why invest. Your precious GSL would cease to function if all players treated this like Naniwa has done and didn't respect the fact that companies are dumping lots of money into what is basicly a niche form of entertainment and is not-quite mainstream yet.
In American Football, when the team that is ahead has the ball and there isn't enough time on the clock to call a delay of game penalty, the quarterback simply kneels down after the ball is snapped rather than try to score additional points.
Jeez, someone should tell the NFL that they are going to cease to function any minute now! Lookout!
Naniwa should respect the fact that there was no chance of him earning any money, and he should continue to try his best so that the GSL can make a profit off of him without paying him.... Wait, does that sound retarded to anyone else?
your example doesn't make sense. the NFL team still played the entire game up till the last few seconds. thats more like someone losing 90% of his workers and all his production and not bothering to micro his last two marines against 50 incoming zerglings. what naniwa did is the equivalent of a team knowing that they aren't going to make the playoffs and deciding to prance around naked for the remainder of their matches for the season
If they could do that and get paid, I would support them 100%. If they didn't get paid unless they made the playoffs, I would make fun of them for earning profit for a league that didn't pay them. Why let a corporation manipulate you?
On December 14 2011 10:20 Executor1 wrote: Ive noticed alot of canadians have a problem with this maybe even more so then people from other countries. Just kind of interesting.
On December 14 2011 09:57 Roxy wrote: That article is garbage It is a players choice as to what strategy he does.
If you give a reasonable reward for winning, they will try harder. If i told you that i would give you a kick in the nuts if you won a game, would you try your hardest to win it? no.. i doubt i
Naniwa, you have my full support!
That match meant nothing!!!
how is that any different that naniwa just being like "um, i dont really feel like scouting because im totally pissed off. Im just going to go blind FFE, into blind +2 blink stalkers. im not going to prepare for banelings or a roach all-in and we'll see how this goes.
it is also stupid that you can have a situation where a player with no chance to advance can affect the wins/losses of a person still playing for a seat. The tournament was flawed and this is not naniwa's fault.
Naniwa won no money for losing that game. He was not match fixing.
No one said he was match fixing I don't know where that came from.
Also he made no attempt to win. He agreed to play all the games. Naniwa agreed to it. He is the one at fault not the tournament. You agree to do something and you don't do it, that's being unprofessional.
You can't just saying "I'm upset I'm just going to go home now" with a job. You do your job. Naniwa's job was to perform. He didn't do it. It's childish and unprofessional.
technically he did play the game. he performed his obligations..
how can you "make" someone try? how do you monitor if he was trying? should we all flame hero for probably not trying either? i mean obviously he just threw those games in order to go 0-4 too?
you dont see baseball players playing the 9th inning when they have already won? what is the point.. why should nani
i bought up match fixing because that would be a purposeful loss that i would not condone...
it absoultely is the tournaments fault. the purpose of a tournament it to determine who is the BEST player. not the worst. why were nestea and nani even playing? there was no point
Except hero atleast made an effort to make it look like he tried at the very least, if nani had just 4gated and lost honestly it would not be a big deal at all. but probe rush? really? there's a reason why it's not done ever in a tournament game. its because it has 0 chance of winning against any competent opponent (yes i know there's a portrait farmer that worker rushes).
oh and btw, your baseball analogy is terrible. in baseball the game is not over until the last out in the 9th inning, so that means that there is never a situation where it is actually impossible to win. This is different from like basketball where a team is down by 20 points with 30 seconds left is impossible to come back (Unless u have Tmac on ur team).
The korean "the nail that stands out gets hammered down" mentality feels so dull... What nani did clearly doesn't justify these reactions and attacks towards him. The game WAS meaningless and I know myself from playing for dignitas QuakeLive that when you've played a certain amount of time its not fun or worth it anymore if there isn't anything on the line. Nani is not korean so his sense of pride and caring if it's nestea's birthday or not isn't the same - I know I wouldn't unless I were his friend which Nani clearly isn't ( Not saying he hasn't any pride rather that there were no glory to be gained in this particular game ). But hey I come from a community where bad manners are infused, accepted and even considered it's own entertainment. Without the idra's and naniwa's the sc2 competitive scene would be helluva lot more boring - atleast they have some personality and doesn't belong to a stereotypical false collective. As for "When in rome... etc" which i'll probably be hammered with - I wouldn't turn into a korean just because I happened to be there competing. This is a "global" league so they should simply slow down and try to understand it from nani's view instead of trying to push their own ideals. He played the game even if it was with a clear outcome and shouldn't be punished at all. If they want to avoid this they should simply change their structure / make a clear rule about this particular situation so it doesn't happen again. I highly doubt that nani *really* cares if he's losing fans here and there or even loses them all as he has his own friends to rely on if things are going bad and his focus is to compete in tournaments and win them and he should continue doing his own thing. I understand perfectly well that you should respect the culture of others but in this case he hasn't really done anything wrong.
what's more, incidents like this become part of the history of the sport and the sport evolves:
As a direct result of the incident, underarm bowling was banned in limited overs cricket by the International Cricket Council as "not within the spirit of the game."
If it's not banned or prohibited there can be no meanful backlash for doing it apart from saying "that was an arse thing to do" and implementing guidelines of expected behaviour.
On December 14 2011 09:57 Roxy wrote: That article is garbage It is a players choice as to what strategy he does.
If you give a reasonable reward for winning, they will try harder. If i told you that i would give you a kick in the nuts if you won a game, would you try your hardest to win it? no.. i doubt i
Naniwa, you have my full support!
That match meant nothing!!!
how is that any different that naniwa just being like "um, i dont really feel like scouting because im totally pissed off. Im just going to go blind FFE, into blind +2 blink stalkers. im not going to prepare for banelings or a roach all-in and we'll see how this goes.
it is also stupid that you can have a situation where a player with no chance to advance can affect the wins/losses of a person still playing for a seat. The tournament was flawed and this is not naniwa's fault.
Naniwa won no money for losing that game. He was not match fixing.
No one said he was match fixing I don't know where that came from.
Also he made no attempt to win. He agreed to play all the games. Naniwa agreed to it. He is the one at fault not the tournament. You agree to do something and you don't do it, that's being unprofessional.
You can't just saying "I'm upset I'm just going to go home now" with a job. You do your job. Naniwa's job was to perform. He didn't do it. It's childish and unprofessional.
If I was told by my employer that I wasn't getting paid anymore, I would immediately walk out the door.
I find it VERY ironic that everyone seems to be defining a "professional" as someone that works for free.
Except he was getting paid. He was getting $900 to play all 4 games. He agreed to play 4 games for $900 and based on results to possibly get more money.
did he sign anything?
is $900 the prize for last place? (which he succesfully acheived), or was it actually in return for playing 4 games?
as far as i could tel, he entered 4 games. he sat in the booth 4 times. he lost 4 times. he said gg 4 times.
perhaps he picked a bad strategy.. who am i to judge.. but he fulfilled his obligations
How can you call that him picking a bad strategy? are you joking?
Did you watch it? He pressed a on nestea's base and took his hands off the keyboard and you call that him picking a bad strategy?
dude, its called sarcasm. obviusly i know 7probe rush is not legit above low bronze... derp
yes.. i did watch the game
whent hey were talking about it i was thinking to myself "man.. that would be dumb if htey made them play.. that would be a waste of time.."
then moletrap said they would play and i thought "o sweet.. my pvz is pretty bad, id like to see how naniwa opens and his scouting patterns"
then moletrap started laughing and told us what was going on before they even showed it and i was like "augh nuts.. o well i dont blame em"
i dont understand why people are so upset here. how is it that naniwa wronged all of u so badly?
On December 14 2011 09:34 Suc wrote: I really don't understand why people are so mad over this, let him play the game however he wants; there was no purpose to it, he had just been eliminated from a really close game and neither him nor nestea could advance. After reading some comments though, I do see an angle where Quantic (his sponsor) might not be happy that he just threw his probes at nestea and gged. But I guess that isn't up to me to decide how they feel about it, it's between naniwa and quantic. Overall: Why so angry, everyone?
professional sports athletes in leagues with no chance of making the playoffs are still judged by their team's management and ownership.
if i were a paying customer i would be displeased with being robbed of a chance to see a game between 2 guys who've battled several times in the past. i'm not a paying customer though.
if GSL/GOMTV/Blizzard the sponsors of this event.. if they paid each of the players just to show up.. then they were probably expecting more than a probe rush.
if Naniwa has angered Blizzard people... well ..lol .... have a nice life.
the ace in the hole BLizzard holds is that every SC2 tournament with a cash prize has to be registered with them.
this entire can of worms is never opened up if Naniwa put his work boots on and did something he didn't feel like doing and mustered together whatever gas was left in the tank to try to win a game.
On December 14 2011 09:51 redviper wrote: Just as Naniwa had the absolute right to throw his game to Nestea (and lets not call it anything else) the viewers, the players, GOM staff and teams have the absolute right to diss him for it. He doesn't have to respect anyone, just play his game. We don't have to respect him at all. And honestly, who does now?
When he starts Code S, the other players will hopefully show their displeasure. The crowd will hopefully boo him. StarTale will hopefully shun him. I want these things not because I particularly hate Naniwa, but because I hate this dichotomy of treating e-sports like a serious sport and also treating e-sports like a non-serious non-professional video game. Not to say that I don't dislike Naniwa and his lack of a meaningful honest apology makes me like him less. But what can I do?
Yes he has the right to be disrespectful and clearly he has the capability to do so. But others have a right to react strongly to it also.
Well said.
If people want esports to grow, then the people behind it have to be more professional like the koreans. This is why it works so well in Korea because it's treated with dignity and respect. All these people on here saying "who cares?" well you should. Sponsors don't want to get involved in something that is risky, if there is a chance that the Idra's(leaves games without trying at all meaning that we don't ever get to see exciting comebacks(which IMO is true-skill, that's why MVP is known as one of the best)) and the Naniwa's will not give them anything for them money and attract viewers/fans then why invest. Your precious GSL would cease to function if all players treated this like Naniwa has done and didn't respect the fact that companies are dumping lots of money into what is basicly a niche form of entertainment and is not-quite mainstream yet.
In American Football, when the team that is ahead has the ball and there isn't enough time on the clock to call a delay of game penalty, the quarterback simply kneels down after the ball is snapped rather than try to score additional points.
Jeez, someone should tell the NFL that they are going to cease to function any minute now! Lookout!
Naniwa should respect the fact that there was no chance of him earning any money, and he should continue to try his best so that the GSL can make a profit off of him without paying him.... Wait, does that sound retarded to anyone else?
your example doesn't make sense. the NFL team still played the entire game up till the last few seconds. thats more like someone losing 90% of his workers and all his production and not bothering to micro his last two marines against 50 incoming zerglings. what naniwa did is the equivalent of a team knowing that they aren't going to make the playoffs and deciding to prance around naked for the remainder of their matches for the season
If they could do that and get paid, I would support them 100%. If they didn't get paid unless they made the playoffs, I would make fun of them for earning profit for a league that didn't pay them. Why let a corporation manipulate you?
He's getting money from both QxG and GOM for participating last time I checked so I don't see how that works.
You are paid to do something, you do it. You agree to do something, you do it. It's simple. Naniwa's word means nothing. He cannot take responsibility for things. And he's facing backlash because of that, because of his childish nature.
On December 14 2011 09:57 Roxy wrote: That article is garbage It is a players choice as to what strategy he does.
If you give a reasonable reward for winning, they will try harder. If i told you that i would give you a kick in the nuts if you won a game, would you try your hardest to win it? no.. i doubt i
Naniwa, you have my full support!
That match meant nothing!!!
how is that any different that naniwa just being like "um, i dont really feel like scouting because im totally pissed off. Im just going to go blind FFE, into blind +2 blink stalkers. im not going to prepare for banelings or a roach all-in and we'll see how this goes.
it is also stupid that you can have a situation where a player with no chance to advance can affect the wins/losses of a person still playing for a seat. The tournament was flawed and this is not naniwa's fault.
Naniwa won no money for losing that game. He was not match fixing.
No one said he was match fixing I don't know where that came from.
Also he made no attempt to win. He agreed to play all the games. Naniwa agreed to it. He is the one at fault not the tournament. You agree to do something and you don't do it, that's being unprofessional.
You can't just saying "I'm upset I'm just going to go home now" with a job. You do your job. Naniwa's job was to perform. He didn't do it. It's childish and unprofessional.
technically he did play the game. he performed his obligations..
how can you "make" someone try? how do you monitor if he was trying? should we all flame hero for probably not trying either? i mean obviously he just threw those games in order to go 0-4 too?
you dont see baseball players playing the 9th inning when they have already won? what is the point.. why should nani
i bought up match fixing because that would be a purposeful loss that i would not condone...
it absoultely is the tournaments fault. the purpose of a tournament it to determine who is the BEST player. not the worst. why were nestea and nani even playing? there was no point
Except hero atleast made an effort to make it look like he tried at the very least, if nani had just 4gated and lost honestly it would not be a big deal at all. but probe rush? really? there's a reason why it's not done ever in a tournament game. its because it has 0 chance of winning against any competent opponent (yes i know there's a portrait farmer that worker rushes).
oh and btw, your baseball analogy is terrible. in baseball the game is not over until the last out in the 9th inning, so that means that there is never a situation where it is actually impossible to win. This is different from like basketball where a team is down by 20 points with 30 seconds left is impossible to come back (Unless u have Tmac on ur team).
Nexus first in PvP. Which GSL match had that worked in prior to when Hero tried it?
We are not sure how Quantic will deal with Naniwa but what we are sure of is that there shouldn't be a chance of Naniwa getting seeded into GSL again.
Anyone want to explain the word 'again'? case 1: Naniwa's code S seed is still valid. case 2: Naniwa was seeded in code A before, his code S seed is no valid anymore.
On December 14 2011 10:33 eleaf wrote: We are not sure how Quantic will deal with Naniwa but what we are sure of is that there shouldn't be a chance of Naniwa getting seeded into GSL again.
Anyone want to explain the word 'again'? case 1: Naniwa's code S seed is still valid. case 2: Naniwa was seeded in code A before, his code S seed is no valid anymore.
After he gets bounced from Code S they mean.
It's well known Naniwa sucks when people can really prepare for him. There's a reason he gets bounced 0-2 every single time.
Also, people really should drop using sports analogies. It's completely irrelevant.
Let's distinguish the difference between professional sports teams and SC2.
Players on professional sports teams have "contracts" and "salaries". GOM does not/did not in this tournament and does not pay the players a "salary". The sports league has rule books in which each "contracted" player must abide by. GOM had no such rule book and the players in the event weren't licensed and didn't sign a contract to follow "specific rules". In sports teams If the "contracted" player doesn't abide by the rules, he/she is then fined and/or penalized because they signed on the dotted line that they would do no such action. GOM once again, had no contract therefore they shouldn't be able to penalize or ban Naniwa from future events. Sports teams have a committee that set the rules and guidelines for all coaches and players.
I would definitely understand the argument if this was Pro League. But, It's not. If it was Pro League however, players would be contracted, have licenses, a rule book, and a committee. All which GOM did not have in this tournament.
On December 14 2011 10:33 eleaf wrote: We are not sure how Quantic will deal with Naniwa but what we are sure of is that there shouldn't be a chance of Naniwa getting seeded into GSL again.
Anyone want to explain the word 'again'? case 1: Naniwa's code S seed is still valid. case 2: Naniwa was seeded in code A before, his code S seed is no valid anymore.
After he gets bounced from Code S they mean.
It's well known Naniwa sucks when people can really prepare for him. There's a reason he gets bounced 0-2 every single time.
Errr, both the leenock game and the polt game were fucking close. Leenock is amazing right now and Polt was smashing face.
They were both TRYING to lose.. anyone want to hang them too?
how about when nestea threw this game:
and i dont have the link, but remember when Idra 6-pooled jinro in GSL.. ya.. throwing games that you dont give a crap about is nothing new. why is everyone out to hang naniwa?
On December 14 2011 10:33 eleaf wrote: We are not sure how Quantic will deal with Naniwa but what we are sure of is that there shouldn't be a chance of Naniwa getting seeded into GSL again.
Anyone want to explain the word 'again'? case 1: Naniwa's code S seed is still valid. case 2: Naniwa was seeded in code A before, his code S seed is no valid anymore.
After he gets bounced from Code S they mean.
It's well known Naniwa sucks when people can really prepare for him. There's a reason he gets bounced 0-2 every single time.
Errr, both the leenock game and the polt game were fucking close. Leenock is amazing right now and Polt was smashing face.
GSL not Blizzard Cup. Blizzard Cup they have to prepare for 4 opponents. Aka Naniwa isn't being singled out. That's when Naniwa does well.
When a player only has to focus on Naniwa he gets destroyed cause Naniwa just doesn't really change his style or try to counter the other players style. He's not a bad player he's just bad when it comes matches where people have prep time.
This was a totally idiotic play by Naniwa but the rage against him across so many threads and sites is just ridiculous... Choya is definitely out of bounds IMO, even more so than Naniwa.
While I agree that playing the game for the fans has to come into the equation for pro-gamers, talk of financial penalties are somewhat ludicrous... who will collect the fine? GOM? Quantic? There are simply no laws for this or to appeal so I don't see how you would implement it unless you want to establish a Kespa-like entity for SC2.
I certainly hope Naniwa takes all this in stride and try to realize that the game has gone beyond the 'this is just a game, nobody cares about meaningless games' point by now; people are actually paying and expecting something in return for the money and time they are devoting to pro-sc2.
EPT
