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Please make sure to read the statement from Naniwa that is linked in the full article before commenting. | ||
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NKsc2
Sweden133 Posts
On December 10 2011 01:36 hugman wrote: fnatic would never pick him up SK maybe, they're familiar with being dicks Xeris is like 10x more unmannered than naniwa so I think fnatic would be too much of assholes for him. | ||
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FXOpen
Australia1844 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:24 IndoorSpawningPool wrote: Well if it's slander then it really shouldn't be in the article in the first place... if it's legit then it should be checked into carefully and not conjoined with statements about how he is a pain to deal with. The anonymity is not really the issue as much as the validity of the statement itself. Right and at the same time anyone calling any organisation shit, or any player shit should be banned from TL, a form of media (albeit forum media).. Its just becoming a situation of internet double standards. | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:10 Klondikebar wrote: Did you even read the wiki you linked? Anonymous sourcing has rarely ended well for journalism and it's practice is in steep decline. Also, when it's reputably used it needs to be corroborated with a second source. ESFI did not corroborate with a second source here. They just let someone sling some mud at a player. I'd have to say that you misunderstood it if you think that "anonymous sourcing has rarely ended well." What you're referring to is this: a news organization will often "clamp down" on the guidelines for using unnamed sources, but those guidelines are often forgotten after the scandal dies down. One study found that large newspapers' use of anonymous sources dropped dramatically between 2003 and 2004. The Project for Excellence in Journalism, a research group found use of anonymous sources dropped from 29 percent of all articles in 2003 to just 7 percent in 2004.[6] Eight years ago anonymous sourcing was on the decline (it doesn't mention what the numbers are today). The wiki states that this usually happens as a result of a scandal or bad sourcing, and that anonymous sourcing becomes more common after the air has cleared. Either way, even if this were the middle of 2004, that means 7% of all articles use anonymous sources. That's a hell of a lot of news articles. Do you really think that it's rare that those articles "end well?" Also, you don't know how many sources they had total. They don't list everybody they talked to for this story like a bibliography. They choose certain sources to feature in the story. Likely no one they talked to wanted to criticize Nani with their name appearing in the story at the time. | ||
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00Visor
4337 Posts
Why is everyone being a dick suddenly? Had great respect for you in the past. I don't see the value/sense in stating you wouldnt acquire Naniwa. Too much drama. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:26 FXOpen wrote: Right and at the same time anyone calling any organisation shit, or any player shit should be banned from TL, a form of media (albeit forum media).. Its just becoming a situation of internet double standards. Aren't you neglecting the fact that ESFI are in for business - in opposite of personal opinions? I'd measure a hired handyman by higher standards than a friend helping me assemble IKEA furniture Edit: And besides, apart from mass public opinion dynamics -which has established itself as the bane of our century- the very same TL has also been a place for voices of reason. If anything, here is the place to even have people jump in and defend someone. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:26 FXOpen wrote: Right and at the same time anyone calling any organisation shit, or any player shit should be banned from TL, a form of media (albeit forum media).. Its just becoming a situation of internet double standards. TL is a community. it's been built from the ground up as a community, not as a team, not as a news/media site (in a way it was, but even that was handled by community members and Starcraft fans). Standards for professional organizations (of any sort) are clearly different. | ||
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ZONTICKSZ
United Kingdom11 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:26 Vul wrote: I'd have to say that you misunderstood it if you think that "anonymous sourcing has rarely ended well." What you're referring to is this: Eight years ago anonymous sourcing was on the decline (it doesn't mention what the numbers are today). The wiki states that this usually happens as a result of a scandal or bad sourcing, and that anonymous sourcing becomes more common after the air has cleared. Either way, even if this were the middle of 2004, that means 7% of all articles use anonymous sources. That's a hell of a lot of news articles. Do you really think that it's rare that those articles "end well?" Also, you don't know how many sources they had total. They don't list everybody they talked to for this story like a bibliography. They choose certain sources to feature in the story. Likely no one they talked to wanted to criticize Nani with their name appearing in the story at the time. Fine, you can choose to believe them. I'm going to say they shouldn't have used an anonymous source to slander a player and then plastered CoL money at the top of their page. If you want to use an anonymous source to cite facts, fine. If you want to use one to blatanly slander a player in a childish way, gtfo out of my community. And you also greatly overvalue 7%. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:22 FXOpen wrote: I have just openly stated what the source has said, and confirmed it. Does that mean that there is now valuable information divulged? I wouldnt doubt that the source is someone who is reliable and respectable...... I know ESFI well enough that they wouldnt publish such a comment without the source meaning something. Its 1:20 am.. Nothing was done with convenience in my post. The fact remains that even if the source is anonymous, and you choose to believe what they say or not (minus the mental help crap), the subject at large has a proven history of being difficult to deal with. I respect Naniwa as a person, but if this witch hunting jargon continues to go on e-sports is going to look like trash. Naniwa is a professional player, his contract was bought by an organisation. The reason behind his sale is because complexity had an issue, and it was dealt with. Naniwa's career is still in tact, he has the ability to prove the negative comments wrong in the future. WE should be focusing on that. Rather than turning this into a media 90210. This goes hand in hand with a question news strait times asked me this morning. "Why should the mainstream media get involved in e-sports"... If they publish 1 thing and you dont agree with it, do you think they will stick around to accept this type of witch hunting crap. The subject at hand has been completely ignored and this topic is no longer about Naniwa, its about ESFI. Albeit great for ESFI traffic, its not an over all good result for the industry that many, including myself, are trying to grow. You and others being willing to say it out in the open sort of shows that the anonymity wasn't necessary. And no, you saying it in the open didn't make it valuable information because, well, it's not valuable information to begin with. The point of anonymous sourcing in journalism is to encourage people to release valuable information without fear of retribution. The opinion that Naniwa is hard to work with isn't even that noteworthy and since people like you are perfectly willing to say it on the record, a journalist has no need to protect sources - he has free access to the information already. There's also the issue of whether opinions, on principal, should ever be vented anonymously. If you inject an opinion into the public discussion you should be available to answer counterarguments and held accountable on the chance the opinion is malicious. | ||
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Zalithian
520 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:22 FXOpen wrote: I have just openly stated what the source has said, and confirmed it. Does that mean that there is now valuable information divulged? I wouldnt doubt that the source is someone who is reliable and respectable...... I know ESFI well enough that they wouldnt publish such a comment without the source meaning something. Its 1:20 am.. Nothing was done with convenience in my post. The fact remains that even if the source is anonymous, and you choose to believe what they say or not (minus the mental help crap), the subject at large has a proven history of being difficult to deal with. I respect Naniwa as a person, but if this witch hunting jargon continues to go on e-sports is going to look like trash. Naniwa is a professional player, his contract was bought by an organisation. The reason behind his sale is because complexity had an issue, and it was dealt with. Naniwa's career is still in tact, he has the ability to prove the negative comments wrong in the future. WE should be focusing on that. Rather than turning this into a media 90210. This goes hand in hand with a question news strait times asked me this morning. "Why should the mainstream media get involved in e-sports"... If they publish 1 thing and you dont agree with it, do you think they will stick around to accept this type of witch hunting crap. The subject at hand has been completely ignored and this topic is no longer about Naniwa, its about ESFI. Albeit great for ESFI traffic, its not an over all good result for the industry that many, including myself, are trying to grow. Finally a voice of reason and consistent standards. Thanks for your posts in here. | ||
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Vanimar
220 Posts
This is from reading the statements. Everybody's happy... that's a good thing right? Im not a fan of Naniwa at all (more of an anti-fan actually), but I think if you don't KNOW any facts other then those stated, how about just unplug your keyboard while browsing this thread? | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:22 FXOpen wrote: I have just openly stated what the source has said, and confirmed it. Does that mean that there is now valuable information divulged? I wouldnt doubt that the source is someone who is reliable and respectable...... I know ESFI well enough that they wouldnt publish such a comment without the source meaning something. Its 1:20 am.. Nothing was done with convenience in my post. The fact remains that even if the source is anonymous, and you choose to believe what they say or not (minus the mental help crap), the subject at large has a proven history of being difficult to deal with. I respect Naniwa as a person, but if this witch hunting jargon continues to go on e-sports is going to look like trash. Naniwa is a professional player, his contract was bought by an organisation. The reason behind his sale is because complexity had an issue, and it was dealt with. Naniwa's career is still in tact, he has the ability to prove the negative comments wrong in the future. WE should be focusing on that. Rather than turning this into a media 90210. This goes hand in hand with a question news strait times asked me this morning. "Why should the mainstream media get involved in e-sports"... If they publish 1 thing and you dont agree with it, do you think they will stick around to accept this type of witch hunting crap. The subject at hand has been completely ignored and this topic is no longer about Naniwa, its about ESFI. Albeit great for ESFI traffic, its not an over all good result for the industry that many, including myself, are trying to grow. I agree with boss. People constantly cry for no fluff media, but then when jason lake posts the truth on reddit or esfi posts this great article, they get attacked. People want no fluff, but in truth they can't handle it because they will attack anyone that disagrees with them. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
Or am I completely reading too much into it? Please let me know and I'll gladly listen if you can talk some sense into me. | ||
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IndoorSpawningPool
United States99 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:26 FXOpen wrote: Right and at the same time anyone calling any organisation shit, or any player shit should be banned from TL, a form of media (albeit forum media).. Its just becoming a situation of internet double standards. Fair enough. I do appreciate your input on the statement itself as someone who has worked with him. Thank you. | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:38 Klondikebar wrote: Fine, you can choose to believe them. I'm going to say they shouldn't have used an anonymous source to slander a player and then plastered CoL money at the top of their page. If you want to use an anonymous source to cite facts, fine. If you want to use one to blatanly slander a player in a childish way, gtfo out of my community. And you also greatly overvalue 7%. I mean I don't know how many news articles are written in the U.S. per year. There are 1500 daily newspapers in the U.S. alone (I'm not even going to touch magazine and internet news sources). If they only published one story every day, that's over 500,000 articles, and 7% of that is over 38,000 articles/year. But anyway, I don't know whether they should have included the comment or not. Certainly I've heard much worse in a news story, but maybe we should expect better. I'm not sure how to weigh whether the opinion is valid. If this is a person who worked with Naniwa, maybe it's legitimate to get that perspective. But maybe his view isn't typical at all of Naniwa's former coworkers, and I understand that concern. Edit: But at the end of the day I give ESFI the benefit of the doubt on this one. I've seen their other work and not only is it fair, but they have the best interviews by far. I'd have to see something worse to say that they aren't credible. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:49 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with boss. People constantly cry for no fluff media, but then when jason lake posts the truth on reddit or esfi posts this great article, they get attacked. People want no fluff, but in truth they can't handle it because they will attack anyone that disagrees with them. Whether the media promotes "fluff" or not is completely irrelevant to this discussion, which is about anonymous opinions. A media organization that doesn't quote anonymous opinions is still perfectly capable of being honest and hard-hitting. Those who have opinions to express can just express them in the open. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:49 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with boss. People constantly cry for no fluff media, but then when jason lake posts the truth on reddit or esfi posts this great article, they get attacked. People want no fluff, but in truth they can't handle it because they will attack anyone that disagrees with them. Then the very same people should have no resentments against BM, do they? In the same vein it would be perfectly fine for Naniwa to go around and insult whatever people, organizations or tournaments as well. Again, again and again. I really believe FXOBoss slightly misunderstood the fuss. I understand and support him in the notion of internet "pitchfork-ism". That not everything and everybody needs to be blown out of proportion. But on the other hand imagine a scenario where ESFI simply left out the "he is mental" part. They have been known for doing exceptional coverage and insightful editorials. To some of us, this is just irritating. One has to ask "really? why even go there?". There is plenty of sensationalism already (*cough* reddit). I don't need another outlet to go down that route, especially when they are reputable for quality work otherwise. | ||
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Zalithian
520 Posts
On December 10 2011 03:03 rotegirte wrote: Then the very same people should have no resentments against BM, do they? In the same vein it would be perfectly fine for Naniwa to go around and insult whatever people, organizations or tournaments as well. Again, again and again. I really believe FXOBoss slightly misunderstood the fuss. I understand and support him in the notion of internet "pitchfork-ism". That not everything and everybody needs to be blown out of proportion. But on the other hand imagine a scenario where ESFI simply left out the "he is mental" part. They have been known for doing exceptional coverage and insightful editorials. To some of us, this is just irritating. One has to ask "really? why even go there?". There is plenty of sensationalism already (*cough* reddit). I don't need another outlet to go down that route, especially when they are reputable for quality work otherwise. People would be pitchforking (yes, it's totally a verb now) whether or not that was included. | ||
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Hundisilm
Estonia99 Posts
PS. I think the journalism thing deserves some attention. Kind of weird seeing FXOpen being a bit emotional about it - good journalism is something that is missing from the scene a bit in my opinion (the point is there should be something more than the forum journalism we generally have at the moment). | ||
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