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Let me start with a disclaimer: this is not so much a specific balance thread as it is simply making arguments about fundamental problems I believe exist in the structure of the Terran race, and why it is fundamentally difficult for Blizzard to balance the race.
Strategy games that involve multiple races are always going to face challenges balancing races. This was true in Starcraft, Warcraft III, and many other RTS's out there. However, in Starcraft 2, there are a number of mechanics that make the game fundamentally difficult to balance - particularly across different skill levels.
Terran units, in general, have the ability to exponentially increase in effectiveness with effective micro ability. Banshees are able to perma-kite nonstimmed marines; ghosts in theory outrange infestors and templar with snipe/emp, and stimmed marines can theoretically kite their "hard counters" such as banelings, zealots and ultralisks. Harassment with banshees, hellions, and reapers becomes infinitely more effective with correct micro of these units.
Because this makes Terran units theoretically 'stronger' than the other races, Blizzard has implemented many nerfs to the Terran race to compensate for this micro potential. The way Blizzard appears to view the race is that, in head on battles, Terrans will always lose the fights to storms/colossus/fungals/banelings, etc. However, with good micro, Terran is able to win fights that it theoretically should lose based on raw battle power.
The reason that Terran were able to dominate so well for so long in the GSL is that players at this level were able to exploit the micro potential of the Terran units and use them much more effectively than other races. In response, Blizzard has attempted to balance the Terran race based on top-level Korean players, and nerfed reapers, hellions, ghosts etc. accordingly.
The problem with this response is that at lower levels, where players are not at the same level as the Korean scene and do not have the same micro/multitask potential, Terran is fundamentally going to be a weaker race. Many may dispute this fact, but the results even of top Foreign players show that this statement is true.
Please acknoweldge this data as just an example that this phenomena seems to be occuring based on recent results. As we know, Blizzard does not release its matchup statistics for the wider public to view. As at 30/11/2011, the top 6 foreigners in TLPD are all zerg and protoss. Only two terrans are in the top 10 - Major at 7th, and Kas at 10th.
Furthermore, results from recent tournaments have been very heavily dominated by zergs and protosses from the foreign point of view. These are the top foreign scores from some recent tournaments (gaps are filled by Korean players)
Blizzcon invitational: Sen (Z) 3rd, Naniwa (P) 4th
MLG Orlando: Huk (P) 1st, Idra (Z) 4th
Esports World Cup: Stephano (Z) 1st, Mana (P) 2nd
IEM New York: Gatored (P) 4th, TT1 (P) 5th-8th, Elfi (P) 5th-8th
IEM Guangzhou: Idra (Z) 1st, Elfi (P) 2nd, Hasuobs (P) 4th
IPL 3: Stephano (Z) 1st, Ret (Z) 5th-8th, Idra (Z) 5th-8th
MLG Providence: Naniwa (P) 2nd, Huk (P) 5th, Haypro (Z) 7th, Idra (Z) 8th, Kiwikaki (P) 9th, Ret (Z) 10th-11th, Slush (Z) 10th-11th
The only notable achievements by any Terran foreign players in recent months was Goody's 2nd place behind Nerchio in Battle of Berlin, and Selects 2nd behind Idra in ASUS ROG.
Let me know what you think about this topic, to me it seems like Blizzard have dug themselves into a bit of a hole in terms of balancing the game across the board. Do you think that Heart of the Swarm will fix this issue to some degree? Do others agree that this is a problem with the game?
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EDIT:
Apparently this thread has created a lot of confusion and argument within the community, so to better summarize myself and the points I'm trying to make:
1. My argument is not that Terran is underpowered, it is that fundamentally it is difficult to balance the game for different levels of play. The mechanics of the game are such that different levels of players are rewarded more or less by different races - because there are different 'thresholds' of skill levels where races seem to be more or less powerful, there is a fundamental flaw in trying to balance the game in this way.
2. No, this has nothing to do with my own personal play-styles, it is a comment on the way the game is played at multiple levels. I use foreign top players and data as an example to compare against Korean top gamers: I have not omitted Koreans because I'm ignoring them, I've omitted them because I'm comparing against them.
3. This flaw is not necessarily on the Terran's side. It could be, as some pointed out, that the other races have design flaws. If Terran is the 'solid' race and the other 2 races are balanced to compensate for their shortcomings at the top level of play, Terran necessarily appears to be weaker at levels where players cannot fully exploit their full functionality.
4. I did not deliberately omit any recent results, I simply took them from the first page of the Liquipedia calendar of major events.
5. People who say 'so you need to be good to play terran' are completely missing the point of this post. The argument is not that the other races don't require skill, its that Terran has different skill thresholds that make balancing the race difficult across multiple levels.
6. I'm not discussing bronze-platinum level players etc. As you'll note, the only direct references I've made have been to top level tournaments around the world. I don't think Blizzard mind if bronze-masters is not perfectly balanced, but I would argue that one of their objectives is to have a fairly level playing field across both the GSL as well as these higher level tournaments that foreign progamers compete in.
The underlying logic of this post is true; if different races require more multitasking/micro or punish lack of multitasking/micro harder than others, then balancing the game for multiple skill levels has a fundamental flaw. In broodwar I would argue that multitasking owness (during battles or otherwise) was fairly evenly spread between the races, but in its current state this is not necessarily true for SC2. The fact that it is Terran that appears to be 'the micro race' is coincidental; if units were different it could easily be Protoss or Zerg. I realise that this is a difficult concept to confer to people and I probably haven't done the best job of it but hopefully this clears things up a bit.
Perhaps this means that simple buffs/nerfs to individual units is not the correct way for Blizzard to be balancing the game, but instead, trying to rework some of the units themselves. Hopefully HOTS will rectify this problem a bit, and I'm sure its something the Blizzard team have been considering for a while. + Show Spoiler +
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You're choosing selectively to look at foreigner Terran players, and that's a terrible point to argue on. Koreans (and I hate to say this, because I don't believe in the Korean/Foreigner divide, or I don't want to, at least) generally provide higher level play, and that's why there's always been a Terran in the Ro4 in the GSL.
Still, I feel like the design of Terran is remarkably solid, and it's actually the ineffectual design of the other races (in that they don't have amazing micro capability like T) that leads to this perception.
I know you said this thread wasn't about balance, but someone will step in and tell me I'm flaunting about garbage, so game is balanced.
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I don't get your point?
The fundamental problem with Terran is you have to be good for them to be good?
Because that's true of all races.
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u gotta sk8
furthermore, when is 30/11/2011...
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You really haven't specified what the problem is...
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Very insightful post. I basically agree with all of this, as the micro required for Terran is on another level, but I'm not sure if we should call this a "problem" per say.
Just because a race has a higher skill cap doesn't mean it's *impossible* to balance, and despite the decent balance results we already have (except for TvP right now which is a bit skewed in the P's favor based solely on recent statistical information (1-2 months)), I think HoTS and Legacy of the Void will give them even more room to do whatever it is they need to achieve even better results.
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The only thing I'm getting from your post is that foreign Terrans are bad. As for Terran units giving more return for cost when micro'd I think that's true for a lot of units in the game, and Terran units are cost effective to begin with.
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On November 30 2011 13:12 Endymion wrote:
u gotta sk8
furthermore, when is 30/11/2011...
Today? For everyone in the world who isn't American and puts Day before month, as they recognize Month/Day/Year makes no sense.
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Terran is by far the most versatile race that really doesn't have any gaps in terms of game design...it probably takes the most skill at the high end but that's not a "fundamental problem" with Terran, if anything, it's a fundamental problem of the other two races.
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United States8308 Posts
Funny, Terrans in GSL usually win their games with strong build orders and interesting styles rather than relying entirely on micro.
I could say the same thing Pbout protoss:
"Protoss is the most microable race! They have blink stalkers, they have warp prisms, they have collosus which you can use to dance with the MMM ball and vikings, they have high templars to feedback and storm, they have forcefields, they have phoenix to harass and pick off marines as they pop out!! Hell, some go for a collosi warp prism drop play!
The problem is that they can't utilize it all!!"
When most of the Protoss victories recently relied on intelligent decision making and prepared build orders.
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I think many Zerg would claim that they need hella good Micro to beat a Terran or Protoss death ball.
I guess you're saying if all fights were simple A-Moves, then Terran loses. So for the majority of players below Pro or GM, Terran just doesn't cut it? I'm not sure I agree, especially with the effective of Bio vs Protoss and the Protoss needing excellent forcefields and Storms (if going that route).
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So what is your background? Are you a video game developer, or a designer or anything similar? I trust David Kim & Co. on this one.
I also don't like the fact that you make it sound like only Terran have insane micro potential.
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On November 30 2011 13:13 GeorgeTheGorge wrote:
You really haven't specified what the problem is...
I don't know if I agree with him, but he's saying that Terran has the most micro capabilities and has been resultingly nerfed, and that only Koreans have the micro necessary to perform at the highest level with them and all the other lower level players suffer.
Also OP you forgot that Thorzain got second at Dreamhack Valencia
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On November 30 2011 13:14 SpunXtain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 13:12 Endymion wrote:
u gotta sk8
furthermore, when is 30/11/2011... Today? For everyone in the world who isn't American and puts Day before month, as they recognize Month/Day/Year makes no sense.
This always confuses the hell out of me. It's off topic, but I need to rant here.
0 degrees Celsius is melting point. 100 degrees Celsius is boiling point. Fahrenheit does its own thing.
Small -> medium -> large, day -> month -> year. How does month -> day -> year make any sense at all?
Gram -> kilogram -> tonne. 1, 1000, 1000000. Ounce -> pound -> stone. 1, 16, 224.
The world doesn't use American measurements because they make no logical sense. So don't discriminate on others, Americans, for not using your flawed system.
/rant
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On November 30 2011 13:18 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 13:14 SpunXtain wrote:On November 30 2011 13:12 Endymion wrote:
u gotta sk8
furthermore, when is 30/11/2011... Today? For everyone in the world who isn't American and puts Day before month, as they recognize Month/Day/Year makes no sense. This always confuses the hell out of me. It's off topic, but I need to rant here. 0 degrees Celsius is melting point. 100 degrees Celsius is boiling point. Fahrenheit does its own thing. Small -> medium -> large, day -> month -> year. How does month -> day -> year make any sense at all? Gram -> kilogram -> tonne. 1, 1000, 1000000. Ounce -> pound -> stone. 1, 16, 224. The world doesn't use American measurements because they make no logical sense. So don't discriminate on others, Americans, for not using your flawed system. /rant
He wasn't discriminating. The original guy just pointed out he didn't understand the date and nothing more; perhaps you have a little man complex, as you seem to be picking on him. 
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On November 30 2011 13:12 Endymion wrote:
Small -> medium -> large, day -> month -> year. How does month -> day -> year make any sense at all?
Although I tend to agree, it's based on how we verbally express the day.
It is November 30th, 2011. 11/30/2011.
Saying it is "The 30th of November, 2011" is really much more formal and makes us think of our former tea-sipping overlords in Britain.
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This isn't a problem with terran, this is a problem with the other 2 races. All the races should be difficult and have high potentials of execution.
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Another one of these threads. How many more "Terran requires me to be really good at the game. I feel I have to work harder than the other races to be good." threads are people going to make. There seems like an endless line of them.
Zerg is my worst match up, can I make a thread about how much harder protoss is against zerg? I mean, its hard for me and really feel that zerg players have it to easy. Why can't the game just be easier for me?
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EPT
