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Putting this into explanation, each race and player has a soft-cap and a hard-cap.
Soft-cap is the reasonable 'efficiency' attainable for a reasonable amount of learning time, experience and IQ. To each his own, everybody has their own soft-cap.
ie: A player who plays SC2 to a point where they start complaining that they're not really improving.
Hard-cap is the maximum amount of 'efficiency' attainable for an unlimited learning time, experience and IQ.
ie: Perfect macro and perfect micro, decision making, army composition etc..
Now the players in diamond/master are most likely running on their soft-caps, they have good macro, decent micro, decision making etc, some of these players have probably shot up from silver league to diamond/master, but can never compete in a GM-environment.
The pro-players out there are there to attain the hard-cap. To play their race the absolutely finest they can play at. Ironing out the absolute potential of each unit.
Here we are.... the fundamental flaw in balance is that each race has a different soft-cap and hard-cap due to each race having entirely different units and abilities.
What is the basis of the flaw? I would say movement speed in SC2 is the biggest factor in driving the soft and hard-cap scenario. Having a unit that can move really fast with range just makes that unit that much more powerful (Think flux vane void rays anyone?) if used properly. In a micro situation, the power of marine/marauder is how well you can utilize them with stimpack.
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Once again, i'll ask, is it more difficult to split marines vs attacking marines with banes. nothing else, just the two tasks. Since the last time I asked people are like "Well Z needs to micro their lings to attack the tanks, and mutas to attack the tanks etc.."
They are two tasks that should take comparable amount of micro since one is the attacker and the other is the defender... why is this not the case?
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a lot of double pronged attacks can be quite effective just b shift queueing up attacks while microing your army. there are a lot of ways that you can simplify your micro. it won't be as a good as pro, but half the time double pronged attacks work just because of how strong 16 stimmed marines with medivac is when they're threatening another area with MM.
in big ball battles you can just hit your vikings and shift queue up click the clossus, that way they auto focus fire.
i really dont' think terran is harder than the other races even at diamond level/master level.
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On December 01 2011 14:24 raginglemon wrote:
Once again, i'll ask, is it more difficult to split marines vs attacking marines with banes. nothing else, just the two tasks. Since the last time I asked people are like "Well Z needs to micro their lings to attack the tanks, and mutas to attack the tanks etc.."
They are two tasks that should take comparable amount of micro since one is the attacker and the other is the defender... why is this not the case?
The fact that rines can hold their own cost-wise against zerg's best low-tier counter unit with micro isn't enough for you? It's like saying muta vs archon isn't fair because the archons can just a-move
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On November 30 2011 13:12 Endymion wrote:
u gotta sk8
furthermore, when is 30/11/2011...
that is today.......
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On December 01 2011 14:24 raginglemon wrote:
Once again, i'll ask, is it more difficult to split marines vs attacking marines with banes. nothing else, just the two tasks. Since the last time I asked people are like "Well Z needs to micro their lings to attack the tanks, and mutas to attack the tanks etc.."
They are two tasks that should take comparable amount of micro since one is the attacker and the other is the defender... why is this not the case?
It's not the case because they are not exact mirrors. In general you will not have pure banes against pure marines. The WHOLE of the attacking (micro banes, lings, mutas) is comparable to the WHOLE of the defending (running/splitting marines, target firing tanks). No one compared those two tasks specifically because its a silly, incomplete way to look at the micro required.
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On December 01 2011 14:36 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:24 raginglemon wrote:
Once again, i'll ask, is it more difficult to split marines vs attacking marines with banes. nothing else, just the two tasks. Since the last time I asked people are like "Well Z needs to micro their lings to attack the tanks, and mutas to attack the tanks etc.."
They are two tasks that should take comparable amount of micro since one is the attacker and the other is the defender... why is this not the case? The fact that rines can hold their own cost-wise against zerg's best low-tier counter unit with micro isn't enough for you? It's like saying muta vs archon isn't fair because the archons can just a-move
That's the thing that the OP is saying, at lower levels where micro isn't INCREDIBLE, marines actually CAN'T hold their own vs. banelings. Anybody saying that lower level terrans don't need to micro their marines (awesome splits) need to give their head a shake.
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Protoss and zerg definitely need more micro-rewardy units. Force fields sort of serve that purpose. You can completely turn a battle around heavily in your favor. Just like how well micored marines can beat banelings. It's not just terran that can die horribly if they have an A-move war with the enemy army. Protoss are guaranteed death with poor mistimed force fields. Blink stalkers micro is also heavily rewarding.
Anyway, more of these unit quirks should be in the game, where you can turn the tide of battle with more skill/micro. Reavers are better than colossus for this reason. Lots of baby sitting, but it paid massive dividends.
But I do get your point. A terran army that A-moves into a colossus death ball will likely lose that battle at even cost and tech simply because with awesome micro you can completely turn that battle around at which point protoss doesn't have a whole lot of options. I guess that's why they added the a-move friendly robotech helions. Helps the noobs out with their a-move micro (haha). Maybe the oracle will reward good multi-taskers for protoss.
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I absolutely hate medivacs.
Not from a balance point of view, but merely as a game spectator.
Literally I cannot see anything when a bioball engages melee units like zealots or zerglings, those goddamn hovering white billboards block out my vision.
Please blizzard make them smaller or remove them and roll back to medics or something.
It's retarded to have such a unit in a game designed to be a competitive esport. It's detrimental.
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The only weakness of Terran really is TvZ late game. Terran has no Mothership or something to improve their army like Protoss. Terran peaks in late mid-game in army and tech and there's no simple obvious late game army so that's the only real hole. However, just because someone is not straight forward does not mean it doesn't exist. Terrans will figure it out in time. There's a lot of unexplored units. Just look at late-game ghosts. They do quite well at holding the fort against broodlords and infestors though that army never feels like it can push, only take attacks like a boss.
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On December 01 2011 13:35 castled wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't seem to accept the possibility that the race they play may require less skill than another race at a particular level of play. In BW, there's consensus that Protoss is a bit easier while Terran is a bit harder at a certain level.
Maybe what's wrong is that people in ladder games too often use the excuse "your race is easy and that's why I lost" and BM their opponents with this opinion. If people care so much about this, then I can see them wanting to avoid affirming the conclusions of the OP because then it gives whatever race requires more skill a free pass to say this all the time.
People get mad when they perceive that they are a better player but they still lose the game. This is the wrong way to think about it. You should think about your games as a test of how well you can play your chosen race against how well your opponent can play their race. Because that's how the ladder matches you.
Unless you're actually a professional player that's going to win or lose money based on the outcomes of your games, you shouldn't care if your opponent has a higher or lower "potential skill level." Even if your race is easier to play, you should be proud of your wins because the system matched you against someone that was supposed to have your skill level with whatever race they play.
Agreed, however the OP is making an argument that uneven difficulty across different levels of play for different races is a design problem. It isn't, it's just the nature of a game with distinct races that have distinct style of play.
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The issue I faced, and that many other Protoss players faced or still face at lower levels is force field micro. A 3 rax kills you every time if you don't force field your ramp or chop up their army correctly. It may seem trivial to force field the ramp, but if you miss and the stimmed units go up, you die. You are just one simple mistake away from death.
At least as Terran if you mess up a single stutter step, you don't die instantly. You have to mess up multiple stutter steps in a row.
That has always bothered me, and at this point I am very solid with my force fields, but once a in blue moon I miss and leave a gap, and the stimmed units run up my ramp and I think to myself:
"I know exactly how to stop this, I've done it hundreds of times but now a slight misclick has cost me the game. Nice."
So just be happy that as a Terran player, you can afford to make slight misclicks, and I'll be happy as a Protoss player that I don't have to wear my hands out stutter stepping like a madman in every engagement.
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On December 01 2011 14:51 BronzeKnee wrote:
The issue I faced, and that many other Protoss players faced or still face at lower levels is force field micro. A 3 rax kills you every time if you don't force field your ramp or chop up their army correctly. It may seem trivial to force field the ramp, but if you miss and the stimmed units go up, you die. You are just one simple mistake away from death.
At least as Terran if you mess up a single stutter step, you don't die instantly. You have to mess up multiple stutter steps in a row.
That has always bothered me, and at this point I am very solid with my force fields, but once a in blue moon I miss and leave a gap, and the stimmed units run up my ramp and I think to myself:
"I know exactly how to stop this, I've done it hundreds of times but now a slight misclick has cost me the game. Nice."
So just be happy that as a Terran player, you can afford to make slight misclicks, and I'll be happy as a Protoss player that I don't have to wear my hands out stutter stepping like a madman in every engagement.
No, you cant... In TvZ, marine/tank vs ling/bling/muta, if you misclick your marines at all, you lose.
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On December 01 2011 14:51 BronzeKnee wrote:
The issue I faced, and that many other Protoss players faced or still face at lower levels is force field micro. A 3 rax kills you every time if you don't force field your ramp or chop up their army correctly. It may seem trivial to force field the ramp, but if you miss and the stimmed units go up, you die. You are just one simple mistake away from death.
At least as Terran if you mess up a single stutter step, you don't die instantly. You have to mess up multiple stutter steps in a row.
That has always bothered me, and at this point I am very solid with my force fields, but once a in blue moon I miss and leave a gap, and the stimmed units run up my ramp and I think to myself:
"I know exactly how to stop this, I've done it hundreds of times but now a slight misclick has cost me the game. Nice."
So just be happy that as a Terran player, you can afford to make slight misclicks, and I'll be happy as a Protoss player that I don't have to wear my hands out stutter stepping like a madman in every engagement.
You should play Terran for a bit. There's tons of stuff like this, you just have to get used to it.
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On December 01 2011 14:59 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:51 BronzeKnee wrote:
The issue I faced, and that many other Protoss players faced or still face at lower levels is force field micro. A 3 rax kills you every time if you don't force field your ramp or chop up their army correctly. It may seem trivial to force field the ramp, but if you miss and the stimmed units go up, you die. You are just one simple mistake away from death.
At least as Terran if you mess up a single stutter step, you don't die instantly. You have to mess up multiple stutter steps in a row.
That has always bothered me, and at this point I am very solid with my force fields, but once a in blue moon I miss and leave a gap, and the stimmed units run up my ramp and I think to myself:
"I know exactly how to stop this, I've done it hundreds of times but now a slight misclick has cost me the game. Nice."
So just be happy that as a Terran player, you can afford to make slight misclicks, and I'll be happy as a Protoss player that I don't have to wear my hands out stutter stepping like a madman in every engagement. No, you cant... In TvZ, marine/tank vs ling/bling/muta, if you misclick your marines at all, you lose.
There is a difference between a misclick and a slight misclick, and I used the latter in my post. Let's define a misclick as anytime you use your units in a non-optimal way.
My point was that occasionally the game is balanced on a razor's edge for the Protoss when it comes to holding early pressure. If you miss the FF on the ramp vs Z or T and let Marines or Lings up, you die. If you hit it, you block them and you live on. It is very odd to have such a dynamic, where you either die or your opponent does no damage. Thus even slight misclicks are game ending, because it allows enough space for units to get up your ramp. You have to hit the FF perfectly to survive, any misclick kills you.
In your case, there is a large variety of outcomes across a range, from misclicking and losing all your marines, to losing most, to losing some, to losing a few. I would define a slight misclick as one where you lose only a few Marines. Often that isn't game ending.
And there you have it, you make a slight misclick and lose a few Marines to a Baneling and maybe the game goes on. I make a slight misclick and don't block off the SCV train from coming into my base and I die.
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On December 01 2011 14:51 BronzeKnee wrote:
The issue I faced, and that many other Protoss players faced or still face at lower levels is force field micro. A 3 rax kills you every time if you don't force field your ramp or chop up their army correctly. It may seem trivial to force field the ramp, but if you miss and the stimmed units go up, you die. You are just one simple mistake away from death.
At least as Terran if you mess up a single stutter step, you don't die instantly. You have to mess up multiple stutter steps in a row.
That has always bothered me, and at this point I am very solid with my force fields, but once a in blue moon I miss and leave a gap, and the stimmed units run up my ramp and I think to myself:
"I know exactly how to stop this, I've done it hundreds of times but now a slight misclick has cost me the game. Nice."
So just be happy that as a Terran player, you can afford to make slight misclicks, and I'll be happy as a Protoss player that I don't have to wear my hands out stutter stepping like a madman in every engagement.
Lol Terran is probably more unforgiving if you mismicro than protoss -_-
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I see it differently. I feel like because terran units have the most micro potential with many forms of harass, that 'theoretically' makes terran the best race design wise.
You're using the word design but I think you're really trying to about their balance philosophy.
My opinion on their balance philosophy: Even if they overcompensate due to design, they can always backtrack later on. We also have issues such as Blizzard is still changing the race designs as well as players are still changing the metagame designs.
I also agree with the post that this is more of a problem with the other 2 races that blizzard is having to babysit terrans designs and balance simply because the other 2 races aren't designed quite in the same way. All in all from my last idea on reasons for balance philosophy there's essentially no problem in place, as the problems you've described are going to constantly change as factors change.
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On December 01 2011 11:59 TuElite wrote:
Balancing across multiple levels lolololol that is so wrong.
I don't know how Blizzard handles balance issue but I sure do hope they don't do it according to "skill levels".
There is no skill levels. There is playing the game right and playing it wrong.
If you're not at the top of Masters league or beyond, you're playing it wrong and your game experience should be ignored and disregarded because you don't know wtf you're doing. That's how it should be balanced imo. lol multiple skill levels that makes me laugh and facepalm so munch.
Nice job being a jackass. Remember what % of players is top master and beyond ? 1% You really think Blizzard wants to waste their money for 1% of possible RTS players ? Sorry to wake you up from your snooze in Disney Land but this is a buisness. Besides, you really think those ppl who worked their asses off up to high masters would have done it if during this whole period of time they experienced a completely imbalanced game ?
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I agree with just increasing the amount of micro needed for zerg and protoss. A-move should be changed to ALWAYS be the worst choice when engaging in a big battle (So at pro level A-moving loses you a big engagement all of the time). Protoss and zerg can have the same potency they have now but add in elements where they have to micro a lot more to get same results. TLDR; nerf MMM balls make mech standard in tvp, remove banes add lurker, remove colossus add reaver :p
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On December 01 2011 07:28 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 07:09 Roxy wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. Ya, god forbid admitting to the possibility that you are just bad. User was temp banned for this post. I know I shouldn't answer to this taunt but even if I was really just bad there's no other explaination to the decline of the terran race outside korea. I've tried playing protoss multiple times in the past (in the only matchup I know for SC2 protoss, PvT) and I could easily beat some of the top terrans in Europe by just camping, chronoboosting my upgrades and waiting on 3 bases. That's basically what every protoss does now and the amount of skill and multitasking it takes is so ridicolously low I feel like crying whenever I think I could have just kept playing protoss when SC2 started. If warpgate was not in the game it would be much different, not having to deal with walking distances and smartcasting makes everything way way WAY easier.
It's not too late, seriously. Morrow changed races relatively late and has done well and TLO has just switched. If protoss is really that much easier then please prove it to everyone by switching and winning some top tournaments.
I'm seriously not taunting you- I would love to see a pro actually have the balls to do that. I think we would be able to settle this debate once and for all if that happened.
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EPT
